Save DST and go forward!

On Thu, 24 Sep 2020 19:16:33 -0700 (PDT), Min

Post by Min
When we had our (thoroughly enjoyable) Zoom meet, I mentioned
this as a Good Idea - several of you agreed, but suggested a
Government Petition was The Way To Go. I managed to summon
enough spoons to do it - So, please sign (Even if you were not able to participate, please sign if you think it's a Good idea)! Until I hear
from HMG, please do not share publicly. Should you wish to enlighten
me as to whether this is not a Good Idea - Please start another thread.
I promise I will never enquire, nor comment upon, whether or
not you voted.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/551817/sponsors/new?token=DiqGKfqaVjcDd2Ay86Zf

It doesn't say what the petition is for and don't know about the zoom
meeting.

Penny

2020-09-25 09:31:56 UTC

On Fri, 25 Sep 2020 09:46:10 +0100, Vicky Ayech <***@gmail.com>
scrawled in the dust...

Post by Vicky Ayech
On Thu, 24 Sep 2020 19:16:33 -0700 (PDT), Min

It doesn't say what the petition is for and don't know about the zoom
meeting.

After reading Min's post in all its 5 forms, I finally translated DST as
Double Summer Time. Something I've often thought would be a good idea
though I don't recall any mention of it in the Zoom meeting - maybe it came
up after I left.

--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

Jenny M Benson

2020-09-25 10:01:40 UTC

Post by Penny
After reading Min's post in all its 5 forms, I finally translated DST as
Double Summer Time.

Is that the same as retaining Daylight Savings Time?

Something I've often thought would be a good idea

Post by Penny
though I don't recall any mention of it in the Zoom meeting - maybe it came
up after I left.

Likewise.

I don't know whether I am in favour or not. Presumably there is some
(good?) reason why GMT is what it is and presumably there is some
(good?) reason why, when Daylight Savings was introduced, it wasn't
deemed advisable and/or necessary to retain it throughout the year.
Doubtless there are Umrats willing and able to enlighten (no pun
intended) me.

--
Jenny M Benson
Wrexham, UK

Joe Kerr

2020-09-25 11:52:58 UTC

Post by Penny
After reading Min's post in all its 5 forms, I finally translated DST as
Double Summer Time.

Is that the same as retaining Daylight Savings Time?
Something I've often thought would be a good idea

Post by Penny
though I don't recall any mention of it in the Zoom meeting - maybe it came
up after I left.

Likewise.
I don't know whether I am in favour or not. Presumably there is some
(good?) reason why GMT is what it is and presumably there is some
(good?) reason why, when Daylight Savings was introduced, it wasn't
deemed advisable and/or necessary to retain it throughout the year.
Doubtless there are Umrats willing and able to enlighten (no pun
intended) me.

Moving to Central European Time and, I think, other options (such as not
changing the clocks) were tried out in the seventies and we always
reverted to the current system as it was determined to be the best option.

--
Ric

Mike

2020-09-25 12:34:22 UTC

Post by Penny
After reading Min's post in all its 5 forms, I finally translated DST as
Double Summer Time.

Is that the same as retaining Daylight Savings Time?
Something I've often thought would be a good idea

Post by Penny
though I don't recall any mention of it in the Zoom meeting - maybe it came
up after I left.

Likewise.
I don't know whether I am in favour or not. Presumably there is some
(good?) reason why GMT is what it is and presumably there is some
(good?) reason why, when Daylight Savings was introduced, it wasn't
deemed advisable and/or necessary to retain it throughout the year.
Doubtless there are Umrats willing and able to enlighten (no pun
intended) me.

And what may suit the south of England may not suit the north of Scotland,
so short of having ‘local time’ Inthink any system is likely to have pros
and cons...
Try China time frinstance!

--
Toodle Pip

J. P. Gilliver (John)

2020-09-25 13:09:45 UTC

Post by Penny
After reading Min's post in all its 5 forms, I finally translated DST as
Double Summer Time.

Is that the same as retaining Daylight Savings Time?

Double was, I presume, moving _two_ hours from Greenwich.

Post by Jenny M Benson
Something I've often thought would be a good idea

Post by Penny
though I don't recall any mention of it in the Zoom meeting - maybe it came
up after I left.

Likewise.

Here too.

Post by Jenny M Benson
I don't know whether I am in favour or not. Presumably there is some
(good?) reason why GMT is what it is and presumably there is some

Greenwich Mean Time is called after Greenwich, where the original royal
observatory was, and is the time system that has its noon when the sun
is at its zenith for someone on the Greenwich meridian (the north-south
line through Greenwich). (I don't know why "Mean".) The Greenwich
meridian - 0 degrees east or west, as the world was mapped by those from
the British empire (though the French had their own, through Paris)
actually only cuts off a small part of the south-east of England; most
of Britain (especially the UK including NI) is west of it. [Although the
observatory building remains at Greenwich (I think still has the time
ball), the RGO moved to the village of Herstmonceux in Sussex a long
time ago, to avoid London light and smog pollution.]

Post by Jenny M Benson
(good?) reason why, when Daylight Savings was introduced, it wasn't
deemed advisable and/or necessary to retain it throughout the year.
Doubtless there are Umrats willing and able to enlighten (no pun
intended) me.

I think, with the hours we work/school (not being symmetrical about
noon), mornings and evenings work out better to maximise daylight if we
_do_ move. But if otherrats know better, please speak up!

Post by Joe Kerr
Moving to Central European Time and, I think, other options (such as not
changing the clocks) were tried out in the seventies and we always
reverted to the current system as it was determined to be the best option.

I have long suggested not changing the clocks _but still moving our
working hours_ - possibly on regional basis, possibly on differing dates
by region; however, it's never had much traction. Now, with covid and
green pressures militating against the concept of the "rush hour", there
might be more hope - but I don't hold out much.

Post by Mike
And what may suit the south of England may not suit the north of Scotland,
so short of having ‘local time’ Inthink any system is likely to have pros
and cons...

I can't see having "local time" as having any more disadvantage than
inconveniencing parts of the realm as we do now - or rather, having
local _hours_: all using the same _clock_, but some areas working 9-5
(if anyone still does!), some 10-6, some 8-4.

Post by Mike
Try China time frinstance!

(-:

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

As Groucho Marx said, "I cannot say that I do not disagree with you."

Peter

2020-09-25 14:11:49 UTC

Post by Penny
After reading Min's post in all its 5 forms, I finally translated DST as
Double Summer Time.

Is that the same as retaining Daylight Savings Time?

Double was, I presume, moving _two_ hours from Greenwich.

Post by Jenny M Benson
Something I've often thought would be a good idea

Post by Penny
though I don't recall any mention of it in the Zoom meeting - maybe it came
up after I left.

Likewise.

Here too.

Post by Jenny M Benson
I don't know whether I am in favour or not. Presumably there is some
(good?) reason why GMT is what it is and presumably there is some

Greenwich Mean Time is called after Greenwich, where the original royal
observatory was

The Royal Observatory, Greenwich still is, and word order matters for
the Royal Greenwich Observatory is elsewhere.

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
, and is the time system that has its noon when the sun
is at its zenith for someone on the Greenwich meridian (the north-south
line through Greenwich). (I don't know why "Mean"

Because the time in question is mean solar time

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
.) The Greenwich
meridian - 0 degrees east or west, as the world was mapped by those from
the British empire (though the French had their own, through Paris)
actually only cuts off a small part of the south-east of England; most
of Britain (especially the UK including NI) is west of it. [Although the
observatory building remains at Greenwich (I think still has the time
ball), the RGO moved to the village of Herstmonceux in Sussex a long
time ago, to avoid London light and smog pollution.]

I think, with the hours we work/school (not being symmetrical about
noon), mornings and evenings work out better to maximise daylight if we
_do_ move. But if otherrats know better, please speak up!

Post by Mike
And what may suit the south of England may not suit the north of Scotland,
so short of having ‘local time’ Inthink any system is likely to have pros
and cons...

Post by Mike
Try China time frinstance!

Penny

2020-09-25 17:40:39 UTC

On Fri, 25 Sep 2020 14:09:45 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I have long suggested not changing the clocks _but still moving our
working hours_ - possibly on regional basis, possibly on differing dates
by region; however, it's never had much traction. Now, with covid and
green pressures militating against the concept of the "rush hour", there
might be more hope - but I don't hold out much.

My main problem with changing the clocks is a life scheduled around Radio
4. It used to involve evening activity worked around the TV schedule too
but I time-shift most things these days - just haven't got to grips with
doing that with radio yet, since recording from the radio is harder these
days or relies upon an internet connection.

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I can't see having "local time" as having any more disadvantage than
inconveniencing parts of the realm as we do now

But would take us back to travel schedules which I believe were a big part
of the reason for 'standardising' the clock across the realm, because of
the railways.

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
- or rather, having
local _hours_: all using the same _clock_, but some areas working 9-5
(if anyone still does!), some 10-6, some 8-4.

Ah, local hours, as in working/schooling hours would make sense, especially
as shop and pub opening times are much more flexible than they used to be
and who visits a bank now anyway?.

--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

J. P. Gilliver (John)

2020-09-25 19:07:45 UTC

Post by Penny
On Fri, 25 Sep 2020 14:09:45 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

[]

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I can't see having "local time" as having any more disadvantage than
inconveniencing parts of the realm as we do now

But would take us back to travel schedules which I believe were a big part
of the reason for 'standardising' the clock across the realm, because of
the railways.

Agreed - read on.

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
- or rather, having
local _hours_: all using the same _clock_, but some areas working 9-5
(if anyone still does!), some 10-6, some 8-4.

Ah, local hours, as in working/schooling hours would make sense, especially
as shop and pub opening times are much more flexible than they used to be

Maybe there's a chance for my desire anyway.

Post by Penny
and who visits a bank now anyway?.

I do, actually!

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

resentment is like drinking poison and expecting the other person to die -
attributed to Carrie Fisher by Gareth McLean, in Radio Times 28 January-3
February 2012

Steve Hague

2020-09-25 19:35:01 UTC

Post by Penny
On Fri, 25 Sep 2020 14:09:45 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

[]

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I can't see having "local time" as having any more disadvantage than
inconveniencing parts of the realm as we do now

But would take us back to travel schedules which I believe were a big part
of the reason for 'standardising' the clock across the realm, because of
the railways.

Agreed - read on.

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
- or rather, having
local _hours_: all using the same _clock_, but some areas working 9-5
(if anyone still does!), some 10-6, some 8-4.

Ah, local hours, as in working/schooling hours would make sense, especially
as shop and pub opening times are much more flexible than they used to be

Maybe there's a chance for my desire anyway.

Post by Penny
and who visits a bank now anyway?.

I do, actually!

Visiting the bank is fine. It's when they come to visit you there may be
a cause for concern.
Steve

Joe Kerr

2020-09-25 19:55:30 UTC

Post by Penny
and who visits a bank now anyway?.

I do, actually!

Visiting the bank is fine. It's when they come to visit you there may be
a cause for concern.
Steve

My father once held up a bank.

He stepped into the road and waved his arm at it. It stopped and they
cashed a cheque for him. Back then mobile banking meant something different.

--
Ric

Sam Plusnet

2020-09-25 18:05:14 UTC

Post by Mike
And what may suit the south of England may not suit the north of Scotland,
so short of having ‘local time’ Inthink any system is likely to have pros
and cons...
Try China time frinstance!

Running the UK as part of China's time zone!?

Why on earth did you even suggest such a thing?

--
Sam Plusnet

Mike

2020-09-26 07:39:47 UTC

Running the UK as part of China's time zone!?
Why on earth did you even suggest such a thing?

;-) but seriously, running a country where one part wakes to sunrise whilst
elsewhere west of them is still in total darkness can’t be easy.

--
Toodle Pip

Sam Plusnet

2020-09-26 18:25:45 UTC

Running the UK as part of China's time zone!?
Why on earth did you even suggest such a thing?

;-) but seriously, running a country where one part wakes to sunrise whilst
elsewhere west of them is still in total darkness can’t be easy.

It's no problem in Beijing - & that's all that matters.

--
Sam Plusnet

Peter

2020-09-26 18:37:21 UTC

Running the UK as part of China's time zone!?
Why on earth did you even suggest such a thing?

;-) but seriously, running a country where one part wakes to sunrise whilst
elsewhere west of them is still in total darkness can’t be easy.

It's no problem in Beijing - & that's all that matters.

The programme on the WS when it takes over R4's frequencies at 1am (it
might be 'Business matters') used to begin with the words "it's the
start of a new day in Asia". There is(*) a six hour difference between
Turkey and Japan, so it can be the start of new day in Turkey when it's
midday in Japan. There was also some remark about _the_ time in the US
which is(*) six hours wide in time zones.

The BBC's knowledge of geography is shocking. They do not know what
Europe is - they routinely forget that half of Russia is in Europe and
they often equate it with the EU.

(* At least at some time of the year.)

krw

2020-10-02 15:22:29 UTC

It is a long time since we trialled GMT throughout the year. I feel it
should be trialled.

--
Kosmo Richard W
www.travelswmw.whitnet.uk
https://tinyurl.com/KRWpics

Nick Odell

2020-10-03 18:20:13 UTC

Post by krw

It is a long time since we trialled GMT throughout the year. I feel it
should be trialled.

Oh yes. British exceptionalism at its best. Instead of being a set
number of steps in front or behind everybody who matters, we would be
different steps apart depending on the time of year. Of course our
once-upon-a-time trading partners on the other side of the fog in the
channel will not really care one way or the other after we have
finished royally shafting them but at least
International-Treaty-Breaking Global Britain will be on the same
wavelenth and same timezone as legendary superpowers Burkina Faso and
Guinea-Bissau.

Oh.
And Iceland.
Might be easier to book an afternoon delivery slot, then.

Nick

Penny

2020-10-03 17:16:46 UTC

On Sat, 03 Oct 2020 15:20:13 -0300, Nick Odell

Post by Nick Odell

Post by krw
It is a long time since we trialled GMT throughout the year. I feel it
should be trialled.

Oh yes. British exceptionalism at its best. Instead of being a set
number of steps in front or behind everybody who matters, we would be
different steps apart depending on the time of year.

But that's long been the case with Australia and New Zealand - or don't
they matter?

--
Penny
Annoyed by The Archers since 1959

Sally Thompson

2020-09-25 15:50:23 UTC

Post by Vicky Ayech
On Thu, 24 Sep 2020 19:16:33 -0700 (PDT), Min

Post by Min
When we had our (thoroughly enjoyable) Zoom meet, I mentioned
this as a Good Idea - several of you agreed, but suggested a
Government Petition was The Way To Go. I managed to summon
enough spoons to do it - So, please sign (Even if you were not able to
participate, please sign if you think it's a Good idea)! Until I hear
from HMG, please do not share publicly. Should you wish to enlighten
me as to whether this is not a Good Idea - Please start another thread.
I promise I will never enquire, nor comment upon, whether or
not you voted.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/551817/sponsors/new?token=DiqGKfqaVjcDd2Ay86Zf

It doesn't say what the petition is for and don't know about the zoom
meeting.

Assuming it's the one I organised, you were there! But I agree with the
others, I don't particularly remember any discussion about GMT or DST etc.

--
Sally in Shropshire, UK

Mike

2020-09-25 17:18:03 UTC

Post by Vicky Ayech
On Thu, 24 Sep 2020 19:16:33 -0700 (PDT), Min

Post by Min
When we had our (thoroughly enjoyable) Zoom meet, I mentioned
this as a Good Idea - several of you agreed, but suggested a
Government Petition was The Way To Go. I managed to summon
enough spoons to do it - So, please sign (Even if you were not able to
participate, please sign if you think it's a Good idea)! Until I hear
from HMG, please do not share publicly. Should you wish to enlighten
me as to whether this is not a Good Idea - Please start another thread.
I promise I will never enquire, nor comment upon, whether or
not you voted.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/551817/sponsors/new?token=DiqGKfqaVjcDd2Ay86Zf

It doesn't say what the petition is for and don't know about the zoom
meeting.

Assuming it's the one I organised, you were there! But I agree with the
others, I don't particularly remember any discussion about GMT or DST etc.

Nor I.

--
Toodle Pip

Kate B

2020-09-25 17:56:36 UTC

Post by Vicky Ayech
On Thu, 24 Sep 2020 19:16:33 -0700 (PDT), Min

Post by Min
When we had our (thoroughly enjoyable) Zoom meet, I mentioned
this as a Good Idea - several of you agreed, but suggested a
Government Petition was The Way To Go. I managed to summon
enough spoons to do it - So, please sign (Even if you were not able to
participate, please sign if you think it's a Good idea)! Until I hear
from HMG, please do not share publicly. Should you wish to enlighten
me as to whether this is not a Good Idea - Please start another thread.
I promise I will never enquire, nor comment upon, whether or
not you voted.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/551817/sponsors/new?token=DiqGKfqaVjcDd2Ay86Zf

It doesn't say what the petition is for and don't know about the zoom
meeting.

Assuming it's the one I organised, you were there! But I agree with the
others, I don't particularly remember any discussion about GMT or DST etc.

Nor I.

I wasn't at the Zoom meeting, but I would always argue strongly against
DST, and am not that enamoured of BST.
The hour-shift change in time upsets all animals' circadian rhythms and
upsets us too, though we don't always acknowledge it.

From spring equinox to autumn equinox there are enough sunlight hours
either side of GMT noon to accomodate most school and work schedules.
But from September to March, and particularly from November to February,
there is absolutely no point in tinkering with the hours, you will never
make the daylight last longer. Even in London, if you stayed on summer
time through the winter, you'd have horrible dark mornings in April and
October, and the thought of double summer time is horrific.

--
Kate B
London

BrritSki

2020-09-25 19:01:41 UTC

Post by Vicky Ayech
On Thu, 24 Sep 2020 19:16:33 -0700 (PDT), Min

Post by Min
When we had our (thoroughly enjoyable) Zoom meet, I mentioned
this as a Good Idea - several of you agreed, but suggested a
Government Petition was The Way To Go. I managed to summon
enough spoons to do it - So, please sign (Even if you were not able to
participate, please sign if you think it's a Good idea)! Until I hear
from HMG, please do not share publicly. Should you wish to enlighten
me as to whether this is not a Good Idea - Please start another thread.
I promise I will never enquire, nor comment upon, whether or
not you voted.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/551817/sponsors/new?token=DiqGKfqaVjcDd2Ay86Zf

It doesn't say what the petition is for and don't know about the zoom
meeting.

Assuming it's the one I organised, you were there! But I agree with the
others, I don't particularly remember any discussion about GMT or DST etc.

Nor I.

I wasn't at the Zoom meeting, but I would always argue strongly against
DST, and am not that enamoured of BST.
The hour-shift change in time upsets all animals' circadian rhythms and
upsets us too, though we don't always acknowledge it.
From spring equinox to autumn equinox there are enough sunlight hours
either side of GMT noon to accomodate most school and work schedules.
But from September to March, and particularly from November to February,
there is absolutely no point in tinkering with the hours, you will never
make the daylight last longer. Even in London, if you stayed on summer
time through the winter, you'd have horrible dark mornings in April and
October, and the thought of double summer time is horrific.

Quite. It's the change twice a year that we need to stop. Whether we
stay on GMT or BST I don't care.

Steve Hague

2020-09-25 19:43:14 UTC

Post by Kate B
is horrific.

Quite. It's the change twice a year that we need to stop. Whether we
stay on GMT or BST I don't care.

I wasn't at the Zoom meeting either, I would have been if I'd known
about it and been available. GMT or BST is unimportant to me, I'm
retired, and all days are alike 😉.

Min

2020-09-25 22:02:10 UTC

Post by Kate B
is horrific.

Quite. It's the change twice a year that we need to stop. Whether we
stay on GMT or BST I don't care.

I wasn't at the Zoom meeting either, I would have been if I'd known
about it and been available. GMT or BST is unimportant to me, I'm
retired, and all days are alike 😉.

I shall explain. The petition is to *not* put the clocks back in October,
and to go to Double Daylight Savings Time next year. I mentioned starting a
petition and it was intimated that starting a Government petition was
The Way to Go, rather than Survey Monkey. Mike, I *did* mention the
historical Scots objection, but the Scot stated they would be in favour, as
did otherrats. Anyway, Scotland can make their own arrangements. It
would be fun changing one's watch as you crossed the border! I need
two more signatures...

--
Min

Kate B

2020-09-25 22:30:25 UTC

Post by Min

Post by Kate B
is horrific.

Quite. It's the change twice a year that we need to stop. Whether we
stay on GMT or BST I don't care.

I wasn't at the Zoom meeting either, I would have been if I'd known
about it and been available. GMT or BST is unimportant to me, I'm
retired, and all days are alike 😉.

Why, Min? Why Double Daylight Savings Time? Why do you think it's good
to be two hours astray from sun time? That means even in London, at this
time of year the sun wouldn't rise until nearly eight o'clock, and the
further north you go the worse it gets as you go into the winter? And
then in the summer it would be light well after ten pm. I've spoken to
farmers in France who hate the late mornings and the long evenings -
they'd much rather work early, both arable and livestock farms. Your
sense of time is displaced, it's really not a good idea and I can't see
any reason for doing it.

--
Kate B
London

BrritSki

2020-09-26 07:14:03 UTC

Post by Kate B
is horrific.

Quite. It's the change twice a year that we need to stop. Whether we
stay on GMT or BST I don't care.

I wasn't at the Zoom meeting either, I would have been if I'd known
about it and been available. GMT or BST is unimportant to me, I'm
retired, and all days are alike 😉.

I shall explain. The petition is to *not* put the clocks back in
October,
and to go to Double Daylight Savings Time next year. I mentioned
starting a
petition and it was intimated that starting a Government petition was
The Way to Go, rather than Survey Monkey. Mike, I *did* mention the
historical Scots objection, but the Scot stated they would be in favour, as
did otherrats. Anyway, Scotland can make their own arrangements. It
would be fun changing one's watch as you crossed the border! I need
two more signatures...

<LW> I thought DST was Daylight Saving Time which I could live with all
year round. Double Summer Time doesn't make any sense to me.

Serena Blanchflower

2020-09-26 07:55:12 UTC

Post by Kate B
is horrific.

Quite. It's the change twice a year that we need to stop. Whether we
stay on GMT or BST I don't care.

I wasn't at the Zoom meeting either, I would have been if I'd known
about it and been available. GMT or BST is unimportant to me, I'm
retired, and all days are alike 😉.

I shall explain. The petition is to *not* put the clocks back in
October,
and to go to Double Daylight Savings Time next year. I mentioned
starting a
petition and it was intimated that starting a Government petition was
The Way to Go, rather than Survey Monkey. Mike, I *did* mention the
historical Scots objection, but the Scot stated they would be in favour, as
did otherrats. Anyway, Scotland can make their own arrangements. It
would be fun changing one's watch as you crossed the border! I need
two more signatures...

--
Best wishes, Serena
All shall be well, and all shall be well, and all manner of thing shall
be well. (Julian of Norwich)

Vicky Ayech

2020-09-26 08:51:33 UTC

Post by Min

Post by Kate B
is horrific.

Quite. It's the change twice a year that we need to stop. Whether we
stay on GMT or BST I don't care.

I wasn't at the Zoom meeting either, I would have been if I'd known
about it and been available. GMT or BST is unimportant to me, I'm
retired, and all days are alike ?.

In the original post Min said
Should you wish to enlighten
me as to whether this is not a Good Idea - Please start another
thread.
I promise I will never enquire, nor comment upon, whether or
not you voted.

Min

2020-09-26 22:34:25 UTC

Post by Vicky Ayech

Post by Kate B
is horrific.

Quite. It's the change twice a year that we need to stop. Whether we
stay on GMT or BST I don't care.

I wasn't at the Zoom meeting either, I would have been if I'd known
about it and been available. GMT or BST is unimportant to me, I'm
retired, and all days are alike ?.

In the original post Min said
Should you wish to enlighten
me as to whether this is not a Good Idea - Please start another thread.
I promise I will never enquire, nor comment upon, whether or
not you voted.

Thank you, Vicky.

--
Min

J. P. Gilliver (John)

2020-09-27 09:36:35 UTC

AIAOU in, whenever I see this thread title, thinking "didn't he retire
decades ago", only to then realise it's DST, not DLT?

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

"When was tomorrow yesterday, Mr. Marlowe?" (The Trouble with Harry)

Rosalind Mitchell

2020-09-27 11:39:25 UTC

Post by Kate B
Why, Min? Why Double Daylight Savings Time? Why do you think it's good
to be two hours astray from sun time? That means even in London, at this
time of year the sun wouldn't rise until nearly eight o'clock, and the
further north you go the worse it gets as you go into the winter? And
then in the summer it would be light well after ten pm. I've spoken to
farmers in France who hate the late mornings and the long evenings -
they'd much rather work early, both arable and livestock farms. Your
sense of time is displaced, it's really not a good idea and I can't see
any reason for doing it.

That's something I've never got. Farmers aren't office workers bound by
clock time, they are in control of their own domain and can keep their
own farm time. There's nothing stopping them getting up and starting
work an hour earlier if that's what they want. Farmers are always
grumbling about something after all. It's what TA is all about. It
probably helps to relieve the mind-numbing tedium of the country! Give
me a city (like this one) every time – apart from anything else a city,
which is a woodland with rock faces after all, is much richer
ecologically than a rural area given over to industrial agriculture.

Personally I love long evenings. I don't give a toss about mornings and
avoid morning people if I can help it, but all the time I was working in
offices I welcomed having plenty of day light afterwards for having a
life outside work. I'm all for double summer time. After all I'm in
Scotland where the gloom sets in mid-afternoon in December.

R

steveski

2020-09-25 23:53:55 UTC

On Fri, 25 Sep 2020 20:01:41 +0100, BrritSki wrote:

[]

Post by BrritSki
Quite. It's the change twice a year that we need to stop. Whether we
stay on GMT or BST I don't care.

Let's stick to Zulu :-)

--
Steveski

BrritSki

2020-09-26 07:12:38 UTC

Post by steveski
[]

Post by BrritSki
Quite. It's the change twice a year that we need to stop. Whether we
stay on GMT or BST I don't care.

Let's stick to Zulu :-)

Assegai.

J. P. Gilliver (John)

2020-09-26 15:50:25 UTC

Post by steveski
[]

Post by BrritSki
Quite. It's the change twice a year that we need to stop. Whether we
stay on GMT or BST I don't care.

Let's stick to Zulu :-)

Assegai.

(-:

Yes - stick with Zulu (Z for zero deviation) for the _clocks_, with
regions, companies, etc. doing things at different _hours_ on those
clocks, to suit local conditions/demands. Even if we end up sticking
with the archaic system of just two changes a year, for goodness' sake
leave the clocks alone.

For those who say that (multiple arrangements) would be chaos: we seem
to manage to deal with the rest of Europe and the world OK at the
moment. As we do with (e. g.) schools with differing hours. [My school
used to - may still - have afternoon school (lessons) at (I think) 2-4
when days were long, 4-6 when short, so games etc. could use daylight.
Can't remember if the change was on the BST/GMT dates; I have the
feeling it was on a termly basis, with the summer term the different
one.]

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

Radio 4 is the civilising influence in this country ... I think it is the most
important institution in this country. - John Humphrys, Radio Times
7-13/06/2003

Peter

2020-09-26 16:47:03 UTC

[]

Post by BrritSki
Quite. It's the change twice a year that we need to stop. Whether we
stay on GMT or BST I don't care.

Let's stick to Zulu :-)

Assegai.

Yes - stick with Zulu (Z for zero deviation) for the _clocks_, with
regions, companies, etc. doing things at different _hours_ on those
clocks, to suit local conditions/demands. Even if we end up sticking
with the archaic system of just two changes a year, for goodness' sake
leave the clocks alone.
For those who say that (multiple arrangements) would be chaos: we seem
to manage to deal with the rest of Europe and the world OK at the
moment. As we do with (e. g.) schools with differing hours. [My school
used to - may still - have afternoon school (lessons) at (I think) 2-4
when days were long, 4-6 when short, so games etc. could use daylight.

Zackly. A "reason" for changing the clocks is that it saves children
from having to go home in the dark. If it matters, let the schools
change. I find it possible to doubt that it does matter: are not the
pavements lit?

Swerve: in a sensible world (!) pavements would be lit just where and
when pedestrians are walking along them, rather than for unnecessary
miles and hours. Motorists don't need lit streets: they carry their own
lights with them.

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Can't remember if the change was on the BST/GMT dates; I have the
feeling it was on a termly basis, with the summer term the different one.]

Peter Withey

2020-09-26 09:24:19 UTC

Post by Vicky Ayech
On Thu, 24 Sep 2020 19:16:33 -0700 (PDT), Min

Post by Min
When we had our (thoroughly enjoyable) Zoom meet, I mentioned
this as a Good Idea - several of you agreed, but suggested a
Government Petition was The Way To Go. I managed to summon
enough spoons to do it - So, please sign (Even if you were not able to
participate, please sign if you think it's a Good idea)! Until I hear
from HMG, please do not share publicly. Should you wish to enlighten
me as to whether this is not a Good Idea - Please start another thread.
I promise I will never enquire, nor comment upon, whether or
not you voted.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/551817/sponsors/new?token=DiqGKfqaVjcDd2Ay86Zf

It doesn't say what the petition is for and don't know about the zoom
meeting.

Assuming it's the one I organised, you were there! But I agree with the
others, I don't particularly remember any discussion about GMT or DST etc.

Nor I.

I wasn't at the Zoom meeting, but I would always argue strongly against
DST, and am not that enamoured of BST.
The hour-shift change in time upsets all animals' circadian rhythms and
upsets us too, though we don't always acknowledge it.
From spring equinox to autumn equinox there are enough sunlight hours
either side of GMT noon to accomodate most school and work schedules.
But from September to March, and particularly from November to February,
there is absolutely no point in tinkering with the hours, you will never
make the daylight last longer. Even in London, if you stayed on summer
time through the winter, you'd have horrible dark mornings in April and
October, and the thought of double summer time is horrific.

This piece in the Guardian, dated 24th June 2006 on the subject might
be of interest.

Britain's timekeeping history is less turbulent, though no less
complex. The Summertime Act of 1916 established two clock changes per
year. During the second world war, double British summer time was
invented as an energy-saving device, effectively putting the country
on the same footing as mainland Europe - GMT+1 in the winter, and
GMT+2 in the summer. In 1947, Britain reverted to normal.

Then, in 1968, a three-year experiment was conducted with British
Standard Time, keeping the clocks fixed throughout the year on GMT+1.
However, the dark winter mornings were unpopular, particularly in
Scotland. In 1971, MPs voted to return to the system that endures
today.

Yet the debate continues about transferring to Single/Double
Summertime (SDST) - the current convoluted buzzword. Research showed
an 11.7% reduction in road casualties between 1968 and 1971. An extra
hour's light in the evening is thought to offer savings of up to £35m
in fuel costs. Crime rates also drop with longer evenings.

The full piece is here.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2006/jun/24/comment.mainsection2

--
Pete

Anne B

2020-09-28 17:57:37 UTC

Post by Vicky Ayech
On Thu, 24 Sep 2020 19:16:33 -0700 (PDT), Min

Post by Min
When we had our (thoroughly enjoyable) Zoom meet, I mentioned
this as a Good Idea - several of you agreed, but suggested a
Government Petition was The Way To Go. I managed to summon
enough spoons to do it - So, please sign (Even if you were not able to
participate, please sign if you think it's a Good idea)! Until I hear
from HMG, please do not share publicly. Should you wish to enlighten
me as to whether this is not a Good Idea - Please start another thread.
I promise I will never enquire, nor comment upon, whether or
not you voted.
https://petition.parliament.uk/petitions/551817/sponsors/new?token=DiqGKfqaVjcDd2Ay86Zf

It doesn't say what the petition is for and don't know about the zoom
meeting.

Assuming it's the one I organised, you were there! But I agree with the
others, I don't particularly remember any discussion about GMT or DST etc.

Nor I.

I wasn't at the Zoom meeting, but I would always argue strongly against
DST, and am not that enamoured of BST.
The hour-shift change in time upsets all animals' circadian rhythms and
upsets us too, though we don't always acknowledge it.
From spring equinox to autumn equinox there are enough sunlight hours
either side of GMT noon to accomodate most school and work schedules.
But from September to March, and particularly from November to February,
there is absolutely no point in tinkering with the hours, you will never
make the daylight last longer. Even in London, if you stayed on summer
time through the winter, you'd have horrible dark mornings in April and
October, and the thought of double summer time is horrific.

I am all in favour of DST all year round. When I was young enough to
have a job, once the clocks went back in October I had to get up in the
dark, drive to work in the dark, spend the daylight hours at work, leave
work after dark and get home in the dark. I absolutely hated it. I never
saw daylight from Sunday afternoon until Saturday morning until the
clocks went forward again. Either staying with BST (good), going to DST
(better) or (better still) doing indoor/office work during the hours of
darkness and getting outside during the daylight hours, would be a vast
improvement. And there would be fewer accidents and injuries as a result
of people having to get to and from work in the dark.

Clock time is arbitrary anyway. It is only noon at 12.00 if you happen
to be exactly on the meridian. It would make far more sense if clocks
all over the world read the same, and people just arranged their times
of work and no-work to suit the local situation.

Anne B

J. P. Gilliver (John)

2020-09-28 22:27:28 UTC

On Mon, 28 Sep 2020 at 18:57:37, Anne B <***@btinternet.com>
wrote:
[]

Post by Anne B
Clock time is arbitrary anyway. It is only noon at 12.00 if you happen
to be exactly on the meridian. It would make far more sense if clocks
all over the world read the same, and people just arranged their times
of work and no-work to suit the local situation.
Anne B

I've been saying that for years, though usually only within the UK.

--
J. P. Gilliver. UMRA: 1960/<1985 MB++G()AL-IS-Ch++(p)***@T+H+Sh0!:`)DNAf

The desire to remain private and/or anonymous used to be a core British value,
but in recent times it has been treated with suspicion - an unfortunate by-
product of the widespread desire for fame. - Chris Middleton,
Computing 6 September 2011

Anne B

2020-09-29 17:27:15 UTC

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]

I've been saying that for years, though usually only within the UK.

So have I. I am accustomed to the blank looks from those who just don't
get it at all.

Anne B

Min

2020-09-30 00:12:49 UTC

Post by Anne B

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[]

I've been saying that for years, though usually only within the UK.

So have I. I am accustomed to the blank looks from those who just don't
get it at all.

I have a (cyber) friend who thought that it would make it be darker - when I
patiently explained, she then decided that as nothing we did affected the sun,
changing the clocks wouldn't do anything!

--
Min

Chris McMillan

2020-09-26 17:07:53 UTC