Honed

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
“He honed [sic] in on this issue of blackmail as being a significant
national security issue,” Simpson said.
Why the "[sic]"? Honed is not a word I use myself, but it seems to be
used in a normal way here. Am I wrong?

"Homed" is the obvious word, hence the sic. "Honed" usually means
"sharpened" doesn't it? On a wetted whet-stone?

Peter Duncanson [BrE]

2018-01-11 12:14:06 UTC

On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 01:40:37 -0800 (PST), Harrison Hill

"Homed" is the obvious word, hence the sic. "Honed" usually means
"sharpened" doesn't it? On a wetted whet-stone?

Yes.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/hone

hone
VERB
1 with object Sharpen (a blade)
‘he was carefully honing the curved blade’

2 with object Refine or perfect (something) over a period of time.

‘some of the best players in the world honed their skills playing
street football’

2.1 Give greater strength or firmness to (the body or a part of the
body)
‘she has been working hard to hone her physique’

3 hone in on
‘the detectives honed in on the suspect’

another way of saying "home in on" (see home)
‘I started to hone in on the problem’

NOUN
A whetstone, especially one used to sharpen razors.

Origin
Middle English: from Old English han ‘stone’, of Germanic origin;
related to Old Norse hein.

"whet" means to sharpen, literally or figuratively.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/whet

Origin
Old English hwettan, of Germanic origin; related to German wetzen,
based on an adjective meaning ‘sharp’.

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

J. J. Lodder

2018-01-11 14:53:29 UTC

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 01:40:37 -0800 (PST), Harrison Hill

"He honed [sic] in on this issue of blackmail as being a significant
national security issue," Simpson said.
Why the "[sic]"? Honed is not a word I use myself, but it seems to be
used in a normal way here. Am I wrong?

"Homed" is the obvious word, hence the sic. "Honed" usually means
"sharpened" doesn't it? On a wetted whet-stone?

Yes.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/hone
hone
VERB
1 with object Sharpen (a blade)
'he was carefully honing the curved blade'
2 with object Refine or perfect (something) over a period of time.
'some of the best players in the world honed their skills playing
street football'
2.1 Give greater strength or firmness to (the body or a part of the
body)
'she has been working hard to hone her physique'
3 hone in on
'the detectives honed in on the suspect'
another way of saying "home in on" (see home)
'I started to hone in on the problem'
NOUN
A whetstone, especially one used to sharpen razors.
Origin
Middle English: from Old English han 'stone', of Germanic origin;
related to Old Norse hein.
"whet" means to sharpen, literally or figuratively.
https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/whet
Origin
Old English hwettan, of Germanic origin; related to German wetzen,
based on an adjective meaning 'sharp'.

So The Guardian is correct, by meaning #3,

Jan

Madrigal Gurneyhalt

2018-01-11 15:09:29 UTC

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 01:40:37 -0800 (PST), Harrison Hill

"Homed" is the obvious word, hence the sic. "Honed" usually means
"sharpened" doesn't it? On a wetted whet-stone?

So The Guardian is correct, by meaning #3,

No, the Guardian is incorrect in adding (sic) to suggest that
the speaker they quote was incorrect.

Harrison Hill

2018-01-11 15:28:07 UTC

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 01:40:37 -0800 (PST), Harrison Hill

"Homed" is the obvious word, hence the sic. "Honed" usually means
"sharpened" doesn't it? On a wetted whet-stone?

So The Guardian is correct, by meaning #3,

No, the Guardian is incorrect in adding (sic) to suggest that
the speaker they quote was incorrect.

Most of us here seem to think of it as illiteracy. The fact that
Athel doesn't, sways the argument your way; and on that basis, it is
surprising that PTD hasn't put in his tuppennyworth.

Madrigal Gurneyhalt

2018-01-11 15:32:05 UTC

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 01:40:37 -0800 (PST), Harrison Hill

"Homed" is the obvious word, hence the sic. "Honed" usually means
"sharpened" doesn't it? On a wetted whet-stone?

So The Guardian is correct, by meaning #3,

No, the Guardian is incorrect in adding (sic) to suggest that
the speaker they quote was incorrect.

Most of us here seem to think of it as illiteracy. The fact that
Athel doesn't, sways the argument your way; and on that basis, it is
surprising that PTD hasn't put in his tuppennyworth.

I don't think ANYBODY is claiming it's illiteracy whatever they
think of the usage as it's a quotation of direct speech!

Peter T. Daniels

2018-01-11 16:33:14 UTC

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 01:40:37 -0800 (PST), Harrison Hill

"Homed" is the obvious word, hence the sic. "Honed" usually means
"sharpened" doesn't it? On a wetted whet-stone?

So The Guardian is correct, by meaning #3,

No, the Guardian is incorrect in adding (sic) to suggest that
the speaker they quote was incorrect.

Most of us here seem to think of it as illiteracy. The fact that
Athel doesn't, sways the argument your way; and on that basis, it is
surprising that PTD hasn't put in his tuppennyworth.

He was out shopping and visiting the barber. (It was the first day the car
could get free of the compacted snow and ice, since we've finally had nearly
24 hr of super-freezing temperature.) (What's the opposite of "sub-freezing"?
"Super-freezing" looks like it ought to mean 'rilly rilly freezing'.)

Peter T. Daniels

2018-01-11 16:31:16 UTC

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 01:40:37 -0800 (PST), Harrison Hill

"Homed" is the obvious word, hence the sic. "Honed" usually means
"sharpened" doesn't it? On a wetted whet-stone?

So The Guardian is correct, by meaning #3,

No, the Guardian is incorrect in adding (sic) to suggest that
the speaker they quote was incorrect.

No, the Guardian was correct in indicating that the error wasn't theirs. And
that "oxforddictionaries.com" doesn't mark it "nonstandard," or whatever its
equivalent is, is on them.

Paul Carmichael

2018-01-12 15:30:11 UTC

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 01:40:37 -0800 (PST), Harrison Hill

"Homed" is the obvious word, hence the sic. "Honed" usually means
"sharpened" doesn't it? On a wetted whet-stone?

So The Guardian is correct, by meaning #3,

No, the Guardian is incorrect in adding (sic) to suggest that
the speaker they quote was incorrect.

No, the Guardian was correct in indicating that the error wasn't theirs. And
that "oxforddictionaries.com" doesn't mark it "nonstandard," or whatever its
equivalent is, is on them.

Looks like it's a septic thang:

OED:

Etymology: Apparently an alteration of home v.
orig. U.S.

intr. to hone in: to head directly for something; to turn one's attention intently
towards something. Usually with on.

--
Paul.

https://paulc.es/
https://asetrad.org

Adam Funk

2018-01-11 09:35:49 UTC

I think it's a mistake for "homed in". You hone a knife --- it's a
straighforward transitive verb.

--
"It is the role of librarians to keep government running in difficult
times," replied Dramoren. "Librarians are the last line of defence
against chaos." (McMullen 2001)

Cheryl

2018-01-11 09:49:24 UTC

On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 10:09:49 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden

He honed [sic] in on this issue of blackmail as being a

significant

national security issue, Simpson said.
Why the "[sic]"? Honed is not a word I use myself, but it seems to be
used in a normal way here. Am I wrong?

To me, that usage of 'honed' is an error - probably a confusion with
'homed in'. I think I've been seeing 'honed in' more frequently,
though. Perhaps I should moan a bit about how language is
degenerating these days, but that makes me feel like an old fogey.

--
Cheryl

Madrigal Gurneyhalt

2018-01-11 10:45:42 UTC

Post by Cheryl
On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 10:09:49 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
He honed [sic] in on this issue of blackmail as being a

significant

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
national security issue, Simpson said.
Why the "[sic]"? Honed is not a word I use myself, but it seems to

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
used in a normal way here. Am I wrong?

Well if you're going to moan about it you're probably far too late.
Although it probably started as a variation of 'home in', 'hone in'
has been an accepted form since at least the 1960s and was in
use at the New York Times as early as 1967. And it's not as if it's
an absurd development. What are you doing in 'homing in' if not
sharpening your focus?

It is quite ridiculous to claim that natural and widely adopted
variations in language are errors. You would cut a vast swathe
through the dictionary if you started to reject usages that
'evolved' in exactly this way.

Cheryl

2018-01-11 11:14:52 UTC

Post by Cheryl
On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 10:09:49 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
He honed [sic] in on this issue of blackmail as being a

significant

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
national security issue, Simpson said.
Why the "[sic]"? Honed is not a word I use myself, but it seems to

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
used in a normal way here. Am I wrong?

Well if you're going to moan about it you're probably far too late.
Although it probably started as a variation of 'home in', 'hone in'
has been an accepted form since at least the 1960s and was in
use at the New York Times as early as 1967. And it's not as if it's
an absurd development. What are you doing in 'homing in' if not
sharpening your focus?
It is quite ridiculous to claim that natural and widely adopted
variations in language are errors. You would cut a vast swathe
through the dictionary if you started to reject usages that
'evolved' in exactly this way.

Adoption is a process rather than instantaneous, so naturally there are
going to be periods in which a certain usage is both an error for some
people and a welcome innovation for others. This particular example
still gives me a gut feeling that it's wrong, so I'm obviously not ready
to shift to the "adoption" side of things.

And are the 1960s really that long ago? I can remember parts of them
quite well.

--
Cheryl

Madrigal Gurneyhalt

2018-01-11 11:28:59 UTC

Post by Cheryl

Post by Cheryl
On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 10:09:49 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
He honed [sic] in on this issue of blackmail as being a

significant

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
national security issue, Simpson said.
Why the "[sic]"? Honed is not a word I use myself, but it seems to

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
used in a normal way here. Am I wrong?

Well if you're going to moan about it you're probably far too late.
Although it probably started as a variation of 'home in', 'hone in'
has been an accepted form since at least the 1960s and was in
use at the New York Times as early as 1967. And it's not as if it's
an absurd development. What are you doing in 'homing in' if not
sharpening your focus?
It is quite ridiculous to claim that natural and widely adopted
variations in language are errors. You would cut a vast swathe
through the dictionary if you started to reject usages that
'evolved' in exactly this way.

Adoption is a process rather than instantaneous, so naturally there are
going to be periods in which a certain usage is both an error for some
people and a welcome innovation for others. This particular example
still gives me a gut feeling that it's wrong, so I'm obviously not ready
to shift to the "adoption" side of things.
And are the 1960s really that long ago? I can remember parts of them
quite well.

Half a century is a long time ago for a language. Doubly so for English
in recent times, with over 5000 neologisms created every year of which
around a 1000 are likely to make it to future dictionaries.

Theodore Heise

2018-01-11 13:36:23 UTC

On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 02:45:42 -0800 (PST),

Post by Cheryl
On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 10:09:49 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
He honed [sic] in on this issue of blackmail as being a
significant national security issue, Simpson said.
Why the "[sic]"? Honed is not a word I use myself, but it
seems to be used in a normal way here. Am I wrong?

To me, that usage of 'honed' is an error - probably a
confusion with 'homed in'. I think I've been seeing 'honed in'
more frequently, though. Perhaps I should moan a bit about how
language is degenerating these days, but that makes me feel
like an old fogey.

Well if you're going to moan about it you're probably far too
late. Although it probably started as a variation of 'home in',
'hone in' has been an accepted form since at least the 1960s
and was in use at the New York Times as early as 1967. And it's
not as if it's an absurd development. What are you doing in
'homing in' if not sharpening your focus?
It is quite ridiculous to claim that natural and widely adopted
variations in language are errors. You would cut a vast swathe
through the dictionary if you started to reject usages that
'evolved' in exactly this way.

Perhaps I'm being ridiculous, but I'm with Cheryl on this one, and
consider it an error.

--
Ted Heise <***@panix.com> West Lafayette, IN, USA

Peter Moylan

2018-01-12 01:55:49 UTC

Post by Theodore Heise
On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 02:45:42 -0800 (PST),

Post by Cheryl
On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 10:09:49 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden

To me, that usage of 'honed' is an error - probably a
confusion with 'homed in'. I think I've been seeing 'honed in'
more frequently, though. Perhaps I should moan a bit about how
language is degenerating these days, but that makes me feel
like an old fogey.

Well if you're going to moan about it you're probably far too
late. Although it probably started as a variation of 'home in',
'hone in' has been an accepted form since at least the 1960s
and was in use at the New York Times as early as 1967. And it's
not as if it's an absurd development. What are you doing in
'homing in' if not sharpening your focus?
It is quite ridiculous to claim that natural and widely adopted
variations in language are errors. You would cut a vast swathe
through the dictionary if you started to reject usages that
'evolved' in exactly this way.

Perhaps I'm being ridiculous, but I'm with Cheryl on this one, and
consider it an error.

+1

Step 1: a few poorly-educated people adopt an erroneous usage, based on
a mishearing or misunderstanding.

Step 2: a larger number of people adopt it.

Step 3: a majority use it, and it becomes mainstream.

I suggest that we're still at step 1.

--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

Lewis

2018-01-12 06:24:18 UTC

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Theodore Heise
On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 02:45:42 -0800 (PST),

Post by Cheryl
On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 10:09:49 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden

To me, that usage of 'honed' is an error - probably a
confusion with 'homed in'. I think I've been seeing 'honed in'
more frequently, though. Perhaps I should moan a bit about how
language is degenerating these days, but that makes me feel
like an old fogey.

Well if you're going to moan about it you're probably far too
late. Although it probably started as a variation of 'home in',
'hone in' has been an accepted form since at least the 1960s
and was in use at the New York Times as early as 1967. And it's
not as if it's an absurd development. What are you doing in
'homing in' if not sharpening your focus?
It is quite ridiculous to claim that natural and widely adopted
variations in language are errors. You would cut a vast swathe
through the dictionary if you started to reject usages that
'evolved' in exactly this way.

Perhaps I'm being ridiculous, but I'm with Cheryl on this one, and
consider it an error.

+1
Step 1: a few poorly-educated people adopt an erroneous usage, based on
a mishearing or misunderstanding.
Step 2: a larger number of people adopt it.
Step 3: a majority use it, and it becomes mainstream.
I suggest that we're still at step 1.

Stats are against you.

Usage note in the NOAD:

"The traditional form for the verbal phrase meaning ‘move accurately
towards a target’ is home in on, not hone in on. More than a third of
citations for this expression in the Oxford English Corpus are for hone
in on, however, and in the US this form has become common even in edited
text. Nonetheless, hone in on is still regarded by many as incorrect,
and it remains relatively rare in British use."

So, at least in AmE we're at least at step 2.5

--
I used to work in a fire hydrant factory. You couldn't park anywhere near the place.

Richard Tobin

2018-01-12 11:25:43 UTC

Post by Lewis

Post by Peter Moylan
Step 1: a few poorly-educated people adopt an erroneous usage, based on
a mishearing or misunderstanding.
Step 2: a larger number of people adopt it.
Step 3: a majority use it, and it becomes mainstream.
I suggest that we're still at step 1.

Stats are against you.

For a phrase like "home in on" I don't think there's necessarily a
reliable progression. The underlying metaphor will sustain the
original, and the word "hone" is rare enough that the variant
could just fade away.

-- Richard

Lewis

2018-01-12 17:23:24 UTC

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Lewis

Stats are against you.

<https://books.google.com/ngrams/graph?content=home+in+on%2C+hone+in+on&year_start=1970&year_end=2010&corpus=17&smoothing=3&share=&direct_url=t1%3B%2Chome%20in%20on%3B%2Cc0%3B.t1%3B%2Chone%20in%20on%3B%2Cc0>

--
Forever was over. All the sands had fallen. The great race between
entropy and energy had been run, and the favourite had been the winner
after all. Perhaps he ought to sharpen the blade again? No. Not much
point, really.

Madrigal Gurneyhalt

2018-01-12 12:14:49 UTC

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Theodore Heise
On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 02:45:42 -0800 (PST),

Post by Cheryl
On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 10:09:49 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden

To me, that usage of 'honed' is an error - probably a
confusion with 'homed in'. I think I've been seeing 'honed in'
more frequently, though. Perhaps I should moan a bit about how
language is degenerating these days, but that makes me feel
like an old fogey.

Well if you're going to moan about it you're probably far too
late. Although it probably started as a variation of 'home in',
'hone in' has been an accepted form since at least the 1960s
and was in use at the New York Times as early as 1967. And it's
not as if it's an absurd development. What are you doing in
'homing in' if not sharpening your focus?
It is quite ridiculous to claim that natural and widely adopted
variations in language are errors. You would cut a vast swathe
through the dictionary if you started to reject usages that
'evolved' in exactly this way.

Perhaps I'm being ridiculous, but I'm with Cheryl on this one, and
consider it an error.

+1
Step 1: a few poorly-educated people adopt an erroneous usage, based on
a mishearing or misunderstanding.
Step 2: a larger number of people adopt it.
Step 3: a majority use it, and it becomes mainstream.
I suggest that we're still at step 1.
--

If we were at step 1 it wouldn't be in the OED. If we were at step 2 it might be in the OED but with a qualification indicating that it was limited in use. It is in the OED, without qualification, therefore we are at step 3.

Paul Wolff

2018-01-12 15:14:29 UTC

If we were at step 1 it wouldn't be in the OED. If we were at step 2 it
might be in the OED but with a qualification indicating that it was
limited in use. It is in the OED, without qualification, therefore we
are at step 3.

Who is the "we" throughout the above?
Achieving step 3 in AmE would qualify a word for the OED even while it
remained at step 1 in both AusE (can't do AuE here!) and BrE.

--
Paul

Peter T. Daniels

2018-01-11 16:28:07 UTC

Post by Cheryl
On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 10:09:49 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
He honed [sic] in on this issue of blackmail as being a

significant

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
national security issue, Simpson said.
Why the "[sic]"? Honed is not a word I use myself, but it seems to

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
used in a normal way here. Am I wrong?

You don't say you "hone the focus" of a telescope. Honing is for sharp edges.
Bullseyes -- what you home in on -- are not edges, they are points.

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
It is quite ridiculous to claim that natural and widely adopted
variations in language are errors. You would cut a vast swathe
through the dictionary if you started to reject usages that
'evolved' in exactly this way.

It's an error.

If "hone in on" is becoming accepted in Standard BrE, it's just another sign of
the debasement of that language -- the same language that has all but forgotten
the subjunctive, for instance. Do you even fail to distinguish "careen" from
"career"?

Madrigal Gurneyhalt

2018-01-11 16:45:53 UTC

Post by Cheryl
On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 10:09:49 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
He honed [sic] in on this issue of blackmail as being a

significant

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
national security issue, Simpson said.
Why the "[sic]"? Honed is not a word I use myself, but it seems to

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
used in a normal way here. Am I wrong?

You don't say you "hone the focus" of a telescope. Honing is for sharp edges.
Bullseyes -- what you home in on -- are not edges, they are points.

It's an error.
If "hone in on" is becoming accepted in Standard BrE, it's just another sign of
the debasement of that language -- the same language that has all but forgotten
the subjunctive, for instance. Do you even fail to distinguish "careen" from
"career"?

This seems a little removed from your normal descriptivist position.
50 years of usage is surely ample authority? Are you unwell or was
it just a good excuse to have a go at we inferior Brits? If so I should
perhaps remind you that it was Americans what done it as I clearly
indicated when I cited the New York Times as the early adopter!

As for the subjunctive, what subjunctive? English has never had a
subjunctive! The American love for the pseudo-subjunctive is
entirely their own problem. The suggestion that it is somehow
superior is simply asinine.

Peter T. Daniels

2018-01-11 17:13:54 UTC

Post by Cheryl
On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 10:09:49 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
He honed [sic] in on this issue of blackmail as being a

significant

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
national security issue, Simpson said.
Why the "[sic]"? Honed is not a word I use myself, but it seems to

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
used in a normal way here. Am I wrong?

You don't say you "hone the focus" of a telescope. Honing is for sharp edges.
Bullseyes -- what you home in on -- are not edges, they are points.

It's an error.
If "hone in on" is becoming accepted in Standard BrE, it's just another sign of
the debasement of that language -- the same language that has all but forgotten
the subjunctive, for instance. Do you even fail to distinguish "careen" from
"career"?

The (highly descriptive) M-W 11th Collegiate has a "Usage Note" which ends
"your use of it esp. in writing is likely to be called a mistake."

The (usually very prescriptive) American Heritage 5th ed. agrees with Oxford
in having no such warning at all.

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
As for the subjunctive, what subjunctive? English has never had a
subjunctive! The American love for the pseudo-subjunctive is
entirely their own problem. The suggestion that it is somehow
superior is simply asinine.

(Again over the years) numerous examples have been provided where a BrE use of
a past instead of a subjunctive is misleading at best and sometimes even close
to incomprehensible.

Harrison Hill

2018-01-11 16:56:17 UTC

Post by Cheryl
On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 10:09:49 +0100, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
He honed [sic] in on this issue of blackmail as being a

significant

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
national security issue, Simpson said.
Why the "[sic]"? Honed is not a word I use myself, but it seems to

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
used in a normal way here. Am I wrong?

You don't say you "hone the focus" of a telescope. Honing is for sharp edges.
Bullseyes -- what you home in on -- are not edges, they are points.

It's an error.
If "hone in on" is becoming accepted in Standard BrE, it's just another sign of
the debasement of that language -- the same language that has all but forgotten
the subjunctive, for instance. Do you even fail to distinguish "careen" from
"career"?

That is a terrible example, because "careen" doesn't appear
in BrE at all. We listen to it occasionally in:

"Every now and then the things I lean on lose their meaning
And I find myself careening
In to places where I should not let me go".

A YouTube link to a song which led directly to two Beatles hits:

Peter T. Daniels

2018-01-11 17:19:23 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Do you even fail to distinguish "careen" from
"career"?

That is a terrible example, because "careen" doesn't appear

Then what's the BrE word for "careen"? (The -een makes it look like it came
from Irish.) (No, Fr. carène 'keel'; it has a number of Nautical senses, as
well as its ordinary one.)

Post by Harrison Hill
"Every now and then the things I lean on lose their meaning
And I find myself careening
In to places where I should not let me go".
http://youtu.be/G00VBTW1fms

Harrison Hill

2018-01-11 17:26:35 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Do you even fail to distinguish "careen" from
"career"?

That is a terrible example, because "careen" doesn't appear

Then what's the BrE word for "careen"? (The -een makes it look like it came
from Irish.) (No, Fr. carène 'keel'; it has a number of Nautical senses, as
well as its ordinary one.)

Post by Harrison Hill
"Every now and then the things I lean on lose their meaning
And I find myself careening
In to places where I should not let me go".
http://youtu.be/G00VBTW1fms

I've started another thread. Love the James Taylor song, and
the Beatles connection makes it interesting. "To careen" is not a
verb I have in my vocabulary at all.

Peter Duncanson [BrE]

2018-01-11 23:43:44 UTC

On Thu, 11 Jan 2018 09:26:35 -0800 (PST), Harrison Hill

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Do you even fail to distinguish "careen" from
"career"?

That is a terrible example, because "careen" doesn't appear

Then what's the BrE word for "careen"? (The -een makes it look like it came
from Irish.) (No, Fr. carène 'keel'; it has a number of Nautical senses, as
well as its ordinary one.)

Post by Harrison Hill
"Every now and then the things I lean on lose their meaning
And I find myself careening
In to places where I should not let me go".
http://youtu.be/G00VBTW1fms

I've started another thread. Love the James Taylor song, and
the Beatles connection makes it interesting. "To careen" is not a
verb I have in my vocabulary at all.

I know careen only from reading nautical stuff.
OED:
careen, v.

Etymology: corresponds to modern French caréner, earlier cariner,
Spanish carenar, Italian carenare, < French carène, Spanish carena or
Italian carena keel < Latin carina keel.

Naut.
1.
a. trans. To turn (a ship) over on one side for cleaning, caulking,
or repairing; to clean, caulk, etc. (a ship so turned over).
1600 ...

3. trans. To cause (a ship) to heel over.
1833 ...

4.
a. intr. ‘A ship is said to careen when she inclines to one side, or
lies over when sailing on a wind’ (Smyth Sailor's Word-bk.). Also
transf.; esp. (U.S.) of a motor car.
1762 ...
b. transf. To lean over; to tilt.
1883 ...

5. [Influenced by career v. 2] To rush headlong, to hurtle, esp.
with an unsteady motion. Chiefly U.S.
1923 ...

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

b***@aol.com

2018-01-11 20:49:59 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Do you even fail to distinguish "careen" from
"career"?

That is a terrible example, because "careen" doesn't appear

Then what's the BrE word for "careen"? (The -een makes it look like it came
from Irish.) (No, Fr. carène 'keel';

French "carène" means "hull". You may have confused it with Italian
"carena", which does means "keel".

Post by Peter T. Daniels
it has a number of Nautical senses, as
well as its ordinary one.)

Post by Harrison Hill
"Every now and then the things I lean on lose their meaning
And I find myself careening
In to places where I should not let me go".
http://youtu.be/G00VBTW1fms

Peter T. Daniels

2018-01-11 22:00:12 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Do you even fail to distinguish "careen" from
"career"?

That is a terrible example, because "careen" doesn't appear

Then what's the BrE word for "careen"? (The -een makes it look like it came
from Irish.) (No, Fr. carène 'keel';

French "carène" means "hull". You may have confused it with Italian
"carena", which does means "keel".

Or I may have believed the etymological information provided by the American
Heritage Dictionary (5th ed.). Fr. carène < Lat. carina 'keel'. There's even
a constellation by that name, which came about when the enormous constellation
Argo or Argo Navis was broken up.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
it has a number of Nautical senses, as
well as its ordinary one.)

Post by Harrison Hill
"Every now and then the things I lean on lose their meaning
And I find myself careening
In to places where I should not let me go".
http://youtu.be/G00VBTW1fms

b***@aol.com

2018-01-12 01:33:57 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Do you even fail to distinguish "careen" from
"career"?

That is a terrible example, because "careen" doesn't appear

Then what's the BrE word for "careen"? (The -een makes it look like it came
from Irish.) (No, Fr. carène 'keel';

French "carène" means "hull". You may have confused it with Italian
"carena", which does means "keel".

Or I may have believed the etymological information provided by the American
Heritage Dictionary (5th ed.). Fr. carène < Lat. carina 'keel'.

That's just wrong. Didn't your recently advise me not to on rely on
general-purpose dictionaries for the definitions of technical terms
("clitic", IIRC)?

The "carène" is the immersed part of the hull ("coque" in French) and
apparently translates as just "hull" in English, while the "quille" (keel)
is the bottommost part of the boat, as clearly illustrated here:

https://www.google.fr/search?q=car%C3%A8ne+avec+quille&rlz=1C1CHBF_frFR765FR765&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwiAid7xmdHYAhVLYlAKHSJ1D74Q_AUICigB&biw=1366&bih=662#imgrc=IMo2hB7dUklb2M:

In the AHD's defence, "carenne" (but not "carène") once meant "keel"
in Old French (in 1246), hence maybe the inaccuracy.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
There's even
a constellation by that name, which came about when the enormous constellation
Argo or Argo Navis was broken up.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
it has a number of Nautical senses, as
well as its ordinary one.)

Post by Harrison Hill
"Every now and then the things I lean on lose their meaning
And I find myself careening
In to places where I should not let me go".
http://youtu.be/G00VBTW1fms

Peter T. Daniels

2018-01-12 04:12:16 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Do you even fail to distinguish "careen" from
"career"?

That is a terrible example, because "careen" doesn't appear

Then what's the BrE word for "careen"? (The -een makes it look like it came
from Irish.) (No, Fr. carène 'keel';

French "carène" means "hull". You may have confused it with Italian
"carena", which does means "keel".

Or I may have believed the etymological information provided by the American
Heritage Dictionary (5th ed.). Fr. carène < Lat. carina 'keel'.

Or maybe complete accuracy with reference to the etymon of the English word.

b***@aol.com

2018-01-12 05:30:11 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Do you even fail to distinguish "careen" from
"career"?

That is a terrible example, because "careen" doesn't appear

Then what's the BrE word for "careen"? (The -een makes it look like it came
from Irish.) (No, Fr. carène 'keel';

French "carène" means "hull". You may have confused it with Italian
"carena", which does means "keel".

Or I may have believed the etymological information provided by the American
Heritage Dictionary (5th ed.). Fr. carène < Lat. carina 'keel'.

Or maybe complete accuracy with reference to the etymon of the English word.

The etymon may be right, but the meaning of "keel" for "carène" that
you inferred therefrom, which was the point discussed, is clearly wrong.

Peter T. Daniels

2018-01-12 13:19:17 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Do you even fail to distinguish "careen" from
"career"?

That is a terrible example, because "careen" doesn't appear

Then what's the BrE word for "careen"? (The -een makes it look like it came
from Irish.) (No, Fr. carène 'keel';

French "carène" means "hull". You may have confused it with Italian
"carena", which does means "keel".

Or I may have believed the etymological information provided by the American
Heritage Dictionary (5th ed.). Fr. carène < Lat. carina 'keel'.

Or maybe complete accuracy with reference to the etymon of the English word.

The etymon may be right, but the meaning of "keel" for "carène" that
you inferred therefrom, which was the point discussed, is clearly wrong.

The exact citation is as follows. It does not matter one whit whether the word
currently means 'keel', 'hull', or 'carrot'. When the word was borrowed, it
meant 'keel'.

[< French _(en) carène_, (on) the keel < Old French _carene_ < Old Italian
_carena_ < Latin _carina_; see *kar-* in App. 1.]

If you don't like it, take it up with the late Calvert Watkins, who was still
the etymologies editor when the 5th ed. was published in 2011.

Madrigal Gurneyhalt

2018-01-12 13:47:48 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Do you even fail to distinguish "careen" from
"career"?

That is a terrible example, because "careen" doesn't appear

Then what's the BrE word for "careen"? (The -een makes it look like it came
from Irish.) (No, Fr. carène 'keel';

French "carène" means "hull". You may have confused it with Italian
"carena", which does means "keel".

Or I may have believed the etymological information provided by the American
Heritage Dictionary (5th ed.). Fr. carène < Lat. carina 'keel'.

Or maybe complete accuracy with reference to the etymon of the English word.

The etymon may be right, but the meaning of "keel" for "carène" that
you inferred therefrom, which was the point discussed, is clearly wrong.

The exact citation is as follows. It does not matter one whit whether the word
currently means 'keel', 'hull', or 'carrot'. When the word was borrowed, it
meant 'keel'.
[< French _(en) carène_, (on) the keel < Old French _carene_ < Old Italian
_carena_ < Latin _carina_; see *kar-* in App. 1.]
If you don't like it, take it up with the late Calvert Watkins, who was still
the etymologies editor when the 5th ed. was published in 2011.

OED concurs.

b***@aol.com

2018-01-12 15:51:48 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Do you even fail to distinguish "careen" from
"career"?

That is a terrible example, because "careen" doesn't appear

Then what's the BrE word for "careen"? (The -een makes it look like it came
from Irish.) (No, Fr. carène 'keel';

French "carène" means "hull". You may have confused it with Italian
"carena", which does means "keel".

Or I may have believed the etymological information provided by the American
Heritage Dictionary (5th ed.). Fr. carène < Lat. carina 'keel'.

Or maybe complete accuracy with reference to the etymon of the English word.

The etymon may be right, but the meaning of "keel" for "carène" that
you inferred therefrom, which was the point discussed, is clearly wrong.

The exact citation is as follows. It does not matter one whit whether the word
currently means 'keel', 'hull', or 'carrot'. When the word was borrowed, it
meant 'keel'.
[< French _(en) carène_, (on) the keel < Old French _carene_ < Old Italian
_carena_ < Latin _carina_; see *kar-* in App. 1.]
If you don't like it, take it up with the late Calvert Watkins, who was still
the etymologies editor when the 5th ed. was published in 2011.

But you wrote "No, Fr. carène 'keel'", which implies that the French, not
Old French, meaning of the word is "keel", which it isn't.

By the time the spelling of "carène" appeared (1552), Old French had
given way to French and the word did have the meaning of "immersed part
of the hull" vs "keel", as testified e.g. by this:

"Étymol. et Hist. I. 1. Mar. a) 1246 carenne « quille » (Propositions des commissaires du roi de France [trad. de traités passés entre St-Louis et
le procureur du podestat de Gênes, rédigés en lat. médiév. : in carena]
ds Vidos, p. 294), attest. isolée; b) 1552 carene « ensemble de la coque
immergée » (Ronsard, sonnet XLIV ds Les Amours, éd. Laumonier, t. 4,
p. 47);"

(http://www.cnrtl.fr/etymologie/car%C3%A8ne)

Peter T. Daniels

2018-01-12 20:11:04 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Do you even fail to distinguish "careen" from
"career"?

That is a terrible example, because "careen" doesn't appear

Then what's the BrE word for "careen"? (The -een makes it look like it came
from Irish.) (No, Fr. carène 'keel';

French "carène" means "hull". You may have confused it with Italian
"carena", which does means "keel".

Or I may have believed the etymological information provided by the American
Heritage Dictionary (5th ed.). Fr. carène < Lat. carina 'keel'.

Or maybe complete accuracy with reference to the etymon of the English word.

The etymon may be right, but the meaning of "keel" for "carène" that
you inferred therefrom, which was the point discussed, is clearly wrong.

The exact citation is as follows. It does not matter one whit whether the word
currently means 'keel', 'hull', or 'carrot'. When the word was borrowed, it
meant 'keel'.
[< French _(en) carène_, (on) the keel < Old French _carene_ < Old Italian
_carena_ < Latin _carina_; see *kar-* in App. 1.]
If you don't like it, take it up with the late Calvert Watkins, who was still
the etymologies editor when the 5th ed. was published in 2011.

The word did not come to English from Old French, but from French. The etymology
glosses "en carène" as 'on keel'. Thus, whenever the word came into English
(MW says ca. 1583), the French word meant 'keel'. MW, BTW, has a different
etymon, carine 'side of a ship' < MF.

Post by b***@aol.com
"Étymol. et Hist. I. 1. Mar. a) 1246 carenne « quille » (Propositions des commissaires du roi de France [trad. de traités passés entre St-Louis et
le procureur du podestat de Gênes, rédigés en lat. médiév. : in carena]
ds Vidos, p. 294), attest. isolée; b) 1552 carene « ensemble de la coque
immergée » (Ronsard, sonnet XLIV ds Les Amours, éd. Laumonier, t. 4,
p. 47);"
(http://www.cnrtl.fr/etymologie/car%C3%A8ne)

Irrelevant to the English etymology.

b***@aol.com

2018-01-13 01:24:46 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Do you even fail to distinguish "careen" from
"career"?

That is a terrible example, because "careen" doesn't appear

Then what's the BrE word for "careen"? (The -een makes it look like it came
from Irish.) (No, Fr. carène 'keel';

French "carène" means "hull". You may have confused it with Italian
"carena", which does means "keel".

Or I may have believed the etymological information provided by the American
Heritage Dictionary (5th ed.). Fr. carène < Lat. carina 'keel'.

Or maybe complete accuracy with reference to the etymon of the English word.

The etymon may be right, but the meaning of "keel" for "carène" that
you inferred therefrom, which was the point discussed, is clearly wrong.

The exact citation is as follows. It does not matter one whit whether the word
currently means 'keel', 'hull', or 'carrot'. When the word was borrowed, it
meant 'keel'.
[< French _(en) carène_, (on) the keel < Old French _carene_ < Old Italian
_carena_ < Latin _carina_; see *kar-* in App. 1.]
If you don't like it, take it up with the late Calvert Watkins, who was still
the etymologies editor when the 5th ed. was published in 2011.

The word did not come to English from Old French, but from French. The
etymology glosses "en carène" as 'on keel'.

That's precisely where the shoe pinches and where my assumption that your
source may not be reliable is confirmed, because "mettre (un bateau) en
carène" (= to careen) means "Turn (a ship) on its side for cleaning,
caulking, or repair" (OED), so that "on keel" is a gross mistranslation
of "en carène".

Here are pictures of careened boats and boats on keel, respectively:

- https://www.google.fr/search?q=careened+boat&rlz=1C1CHBF_frFR765FR765&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X1&ved=0ahUKEwjdgdSu2dPYAhWSLVAKHZqXCbcQ_AUICygC&biw=1366&bih=662

- https://www.google.fr/search?rlz=1C1CHBF_frFR765FR765&biw=1366&bih=662&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=TltZWvO3DoHZwALq4KzADg&q=%22boat+on+the+keel%22&oq=%22boat+on+the+keel%22&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0i8i10i30k1.5984.6273.0.6448.4.4.0.0.0.0.105.348.3j1.4.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..1.3.272...0i8i7i10i30k1.0.fDFxxnxSby0

The pictures speak for themselves.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Thus, whenever the word came into English
(MW says ca. 1583), the French word meant 'keel'. MW, BTW, has a different
etymon, carine 'side of a ship' < MF.

But it also says (emphasis mine):

"from Medieval French, _submerged part of a hull_",
from Latin carina _hull_, half of a nutshell"

As I understand it, the bottom line is you initially inferred
from the AHD's etymological information "Fr. carène < Lat. carina 'keel'"
you quoted that "the meaning "keel" also applied to "Fr. carène", whereas
it's apparently limited to "Lat. carina" and says nothing of
"carène" - hence your persistence in error.

Irrelevant to the English etymology.

??? How could that be, since the etymon is supposed to be French?

Peter T. Daniels

2018-01-13 04:30:22 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Do you even fail to distinguish "careen" from
"career"?

That is a terrible example, because "careen" doesn't appear

Then what's the BrE word for "careen"? (The -een makes it look like it came
from Irish.) (No, Fr. carène 'keel';

French "carène" means "hull". You may have confused it with Italian
"carena", which does means "keel".

Or I may have believed the etymological information provided by the American
Heritage Dictionary (5th ed.). Fr. carène < Lat. carina 'keel'.

Or maybe complete accuracy with reference to the etymon of the English word.

The etymon may be right, but the meaning of "keel" for "carène" that
you inferred therefrom, which was the point discussed, is clearly wrong.

The exact citation is as follows. It does not matter one whit whether the word
currently means 'keel', 'hull', or 'carrot'. When the word was borrowed, it
meant 'keel'.
[< French _(en) carène_, (on) the keel < Old French _carene_ < Old Italian
_carena_ < Latin _carina_; see *kar-* in App. 1.]
If you don't like it, take it up with the late Calvert Watkins, who was still
the etymologies editor when the 5th ed. was published in 2011.

The word did not come to English from Old French, but from French. The
etymology glosses "en carène" as 'on keel'.

That's precisely where the shoe pinches and where my assumption that your
source may not be reliable is confirmed, because "mettre (un bateau) en
carène" (= to careen) means "Turn (a ship) on its side for cleaning,
caulking, or repair" (OED), so that "on keel" is a gross mistranslation
of "en carène".
- https://www.google.fr/search?q=careened+boat&rlz=1C1CHBF_frFR765FR765&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X1&ved=0ahUKEwjdgdSu2dPYAhWSLVAKHZqXCbcQ_AUICygC&biw=1366&bih=662
- https://www.google.fr/search?rlz=1C1CHBF_frFR765FR765&biw=1366&bih=662&tbm=isch&sa=1&ei=TltZWvO3DoHZwALq4KzADg&q=%22boat+on+the+keel%22&oq=%22boat+on+the+keel%22&gs_l=psy-ab.3..0i8i10i30k1.5984.6273.0.6448.4.4.0.0.0.0.105.348.3j1.4.0....0...1c.1.64.psy-ab..1.3.272...0i8i7i10i30k1.0.fDFxxnxSby0
The pictures speak for themselves.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Thus, whenever the word came into English
(MW says ca. 1583), the French word meant 'keel'. MW, BTW, has a different
etymon, carine 'side of a ship' < MF.

"from Medieval French, _submerged part of a hull_",
from Latin carina _hull_, half of a nutshell"
As I understand it, the bottom line is you initially inferred
from the AHD's etymological information "Fr. carène < Lat. carina 'keel'"
you quoted that "the meaning "keel" also applied to "Fr. carène", whereas
it's apparently limited to "Lat. carina" and says nothing of
"carène" - hence your persistence in error.