shared devices (sorta kinda)

[Greg Smith]

I've committed to cvs code to support device sharing, specifically
dasd sharing.

The code affects anything to do with emulated disks, compressed or
not. I would suggest having some kind of recovery plan in case
something goes wrong. You can be sure I backed *my* disks up one
way or another before trying this code. However, I have been
testing using emulated ckd and fba dasd and seemed to have worked
out catastrophic bugs at least.

I've not actually tested yet shared dasd... but rather `remote' dasd.
Hence the `sorta kinda'. The first step (as this implementation goes)
is to access dasd in a remote process, whether on the same machine or
some other. I've doc'd (somewhat) how the stuff works in the new file
shared.h but will append the first section below.

There are `issues' with the code but afaik it should at least work.
That is, I'd rather hear `it works', `it doesn't work' etc. as
opposed to `performance suX0rd'.

Greg

* Shared device support allows multiple Hercules instances to share
* devices. The device will be `local' to one instance and `remote'
* to all other instances. The local instance is the `server' for
* that device and the remote instance is the `client'. You do not
* have to IPL an operating system on the device server. Any number
* of Hercules instances can act as a server in a Hercplex ;-)
*
* To use a device on a remote system, instead of specifying a file
* name on the device config statement, you specify
*
* ip_address_or_name:port:devnum
*
* For example:
*
* 0100 3350 localhost:3990:0100
*
* which says there is a device server on the local host listening
* on port 3990 and we want to use its 0100 device as 0100. The
* default port is 3990 and the default remote device number is the
* local device number. So we could say
*
* 0100 3350 localhost
*
* instead, providing we don't actually have a file `localhost'.
* Interestingly, the instance on the local host listening on 3990
* could have a statement
*
* 0100 3350 192.168.200.1::0200
*
* which means that instance in turn will use device 0200 on the
* server at 192.168.200.1 listening on port 3990. The original
* instance will have to `hop' thru the second instance to get
* to the real device.
*
* Device sharing can be `split' between multiple instances.
* For example, suppose instance A has
*
* SHRDPORT 3990
* 0100 3350 localhost:3991
* 0101 3350 mvscat
*
* and instance B has
*
* SHRDPORT 3991
* 0100 3350 mvsres
* 0101 3350 localhost
*
* Then each instance acts as both a client and as a server.
*
* When `SHRDPORT' is specified, thread `shared_server' is started
* at the end of Hercules initialization. In the example above,
* neither Hercules instance can initialize their devices until the
* server is started on each system. In this case, the device trying
* to access a server gets the `connecting' bit set on in the DEVBLK
* and the device still needs to initialize. After the shared server
* is started, a thread is attached for each device that is connecting
* to complete the connection (which is the device init handler).
*


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[John Summerfield]

Post by Greg Smith
I've committed to cvs code to support device sharing, specifically
dasd sharing.
The code affects anything to do with emulated disks, compressed or
not. I would suggest having some kind of recovery plan in case
something goes wrong. You can be sure I backed *my* disks up one
way or another before trying this code. However, I have been
testing using emulated ckd and fba dasd and seemed to have worked
out catastrophic bugs at least.
I've not actually tested yet shared dasd... but rather `remote' dasd.
Hence the `sorta kinda'. The first step (as this implementation goes)
is to access dasd in a remote process, whether on the same machine or
some other. I've doc'd (somewhat) how the stuff works in the new file
shared.h but will append the first section below.
There are `issues' with the code but afaik it should at least work.
That is, I'd rather hear `it works', `it doesn't work' etc. as
opposed to `performance suX0rd'.

First question came t _my_ mind: "Does it work over nbd and such?"

To my mind that would make more sense than shared DASD on one physical
computer, even than SMP.

But then, I've never actually tried nbd and I don't know what its capabilities
are.
--
Cheers
John Summerfield


Microsoft's most solid OS: http://www.geocities.com/rcwoolley/
Join the "Linux Support by Small Businesses" list at
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[Greg Smith]

Post by John Summerfield
First question came t _my_ mind: "Does it work over nbd and such?"
To my mind that would make more sense than shared DASD on one physical
computer, even than SMP.
But then, I've never actually tried nbd and I don't know what its capabilities
are.

John, I'm not quite getting your point here (aside from not knowing what
nbd is). As you well know `shared dasd' is a technical term meaning that
one system at a time (within its extent) accesses an emulated dasd and
can reserve/release the dasd device affecting other systems trying to access
that dasd device. The emulation uses ip sockets. Whatever benefits that
provides is purely up to your discrection & imagination. I know I've
had some fun putting my home network to capacity ;-)

Greg


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[John Summerfield]

Post by Greg Smith

Post by John Summerfield
First question came t _my_ mind: "Does it work over nbd and such?"
To my mind that would make more sense than shared DASD on one physical
computer, even than SMP.
But then, I've never actually tried nbd and I don't know what its
capabilities are.

John, I'm not quite getting your point here (aside from not knowing what
nbd is). As you well know `shared dasd' is a technical term meaning that
one system at a time (within its extent) accesses an emulated dasd and
can reserve/release the dasd device affecting other systems trying to
access that dasd device. The emulation uses ip sockets. Whatever benefits
that provides is purely up to your discrection & imagination. I know I've
had some fun putting my home network to capacity ;-)

nbd is a kernel device driver. I've not used it, but using it, you can have a
device at (maybe) /dev/nb0 and the storage device is on another computer.

I really should read up on it: if it works as I hope you can share the virtual
disk, a little like using shared DASD.

Read /usr/src/linux-2.4.*/Documentation/nbd.txt
and http://nbd.sf.net/
and http://atrey.karlin.mff.cuni.cz/~pavel/nbd/nbd.html

On a quick read, I don't think any kind of sharing is permitted. You can use
network block devices as part of a software RAID setup.

Note: I think getting this going over Windows will be a serious challenge;-)

There is also enbd, but that's a kernel patch. nbd is standard.

Post by Greg Smith
Greg
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
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--
Cheers
John Summerfield


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Join the "Linux Support by Small Businesses" list at
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[Volker Bandke]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Greg,


This seems to be a good idea. Function Request Shipping for
Hercules. I have a few questions, though:


How do you manage LOCKING/SERIALIZATION? Which means: What happens
if two clients access the same device on the server

How do you manage LOGGING/RECOVERY? Which means: What happens if
client A updates a DASD image on server B, and then either A or B
abend. How do you rollback/rollforward/synchronize?





With kind Regards |\ _,,,---,,_
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,
Volker Bandke |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-'
(BSP GmbH) '---''(_/--' `-'\_)

Ozman's Laws: 1. If someone says he will do something "without
fail," he won't. 2. The more people talk on the phone, the less money
they make. 3. People who go to conferences are the ones who
shouldn't. 4. Pizza always burns the roof of your mouth.

(Another Wisdom from my fortune cookie jar)


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[John Summerfield]

Post by Volker Bandke
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Greg,
This seems to be a good idea. Function Request Shipping for
How do you manage LOCKING/SERIALIZATION? Which means: What happens
if two clients access the same device on the server
How do you manage LOGGING/RECOVERY? Which means: What happens if
client A updates a DASD image on server B, and then either A or B
abend. How do you rollback/rollforward/synchronize?

I presume he does what the original hardware did. Back when the 3330 was the
latest disk technology, we had drives attached to four channels.

In a shared DASD environment, which we had for a time, you reserve a drive
with the CCW code X'B4' and release it wit X'94.'

Once a drive is reserved, it's busy to all the other three channels until
released.

The drive has to be reserved for VTOC updates: programmers could use the
RESERVE and ENQ macroes to reserve drives if the application demanded it.

I don't recall what we had on shared DASD: I do recall we had the occasional
deadlock and consequent system hang.

I'm pretty sure you can use shared DASD for ASP/HASP/JES{2,3} spool. It is not
a suitable repository for IMS databases.

Post by Volker Bandke
With kind Regards |\ _,,,---,,_
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,
Volker Bandke |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-'
(BSP GmbH) '---''(_/--' `-'\_)
Ozman's Laws: 1. If someone says he will do something "without
fail," he won't. 2. The more people talk on the phone, the less money
they make. 3. People who go to conferences are the ones who
shouldn't. 4. Pizza always burns the roof of your mouth.
(Another Wisdom from my fortune cookie jar)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP Personal Security 7.0.3
iQA/AwUBPqETEh5trGyhAF0wEQLI8QCfScGEZ3Iqw4lEpQkAcLKyGK5z56oAoKd/
Ces9rQ255C3MOuQzwB1HMJ8f
=BuKZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
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--
Cheers
John Summerfield


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[somitcw]

--- In hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org, John Summerfield <***@c...>
wrote:
- - - much snipped - - -

Post by John Summerfield
I presume he does what the original hardware did.
Back when the 3330 was the latest disk technology,
we had drives attached to four channels.
In a shared DASD environment, which we had for a
time, you reserve a drive with the CCW code X'B4'
and release it wit X'94.'
Once a drive is reserved, it's busy to all the
other three channels until released.

Back then, a device busy could mean that the
entire control unit was busy. I assume that MVS 3.8j
will treat the implemented device reserve/release is
on the device level?

Post by John Summerfield
programmers could use the RESERVE and ENQ macroes
to reserve drives if the application demanded it.
I don't recall what we had on shared DASD: I do
recall we had the occasional deadlock and consequent
system hang.

The best one that I saw was when the test program
libraries were on the same disk as the production
program libraries. Every LinkEdit on the test system
would cause CICS to freeze. An occasional deadlock
would have the operators IPL the test system to
unlock the production CICS ( IPL does a system reset
which also includes a channel reset ). When I found
out, I told the programmers to ignore where manglement
had told them to run compiles and restricted all
LinkEdits to run on the production system.

Post by John Summerfield
I'm pretty sure you can use shared DASD for
ASP/HASP/JES{2,3} spool. It is not a suitable
repository for IMS databases.

I share my IMS data bases between LPARs.
R/W on its production LPAR and R/O on the other
production LPAR. No GRS, no sysples, and no
problem so far. We are well into down sizing,
so don't expect a problem in the future.

You would not believe how expensive in people
time, years of effort, and monetary cost we have
spent to down size to a low-performance low-function
low-reliability low-security primitive system.
The next few months or years will be spent on trying
to improve it. My wish for a rest and some sleep
will not happen for a long time.

- - - much snipped - - -


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[John Summerfield]

Post by somitcw
I share my IMS data bases between LPARs.
R/W on its production LPAR and R/O on the other
production LPAR. No GRS, no sysples, and no
problem so far. We are well into down sizing,
so don't expect a problem in the future.

In that configuration, I'd not gen (or whatever you do these days) the devices
as "shared."
--
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John Summerfield


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[pa3efu]

Function Request Shipping is only the functional implementation, its
implementation does not change the architectural implementation of
shared dasd. A reserve is still a reserve as observed as such by
other systems, the same applies to working allegiance and other
architectural issues. A reserve is shipped as a function request
rather then as a CCW, but the device is still reserved.

jj

Post by Volker Bandke
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Greg,
This seems to be a good idea. Function Request Shipping for
How do you manage LOCKING/SERIALIZATION? Which means: What happens
if two clients access the same device on the server
How do you manage LOGGING/RECOVERY? Which means: What happens if
client A updates a DASD image on server B, and then either A or B
abend. How do you rollback/rollforward/synchronize?
With kind Regards |\ _,,,---,,_
ZZZzz /,`.-'`' -. ;-;;,
Volker Bandke |,4- ) )-,_. ,\ ( `'-'
(BSP GmbH) '---''(_/--' `-'\_)
Ozman's Laws: 1. If someone says he will do something "without
fail," he won't. 2. The more people talk on the phone, the less money
they make. 3. People who go to conferences are the ones who
shouldn't. 4. Pizza always burns the roof of your mouth.
(Another Wisdom from my fortune cookie jar)
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP Personal Security 7.0.3
iQA/AwUBPqETEh5trGyhAF0wEQLI8QCfScGEZ3Iqw4lEpQkAcLKyGK5z56oAoKd/
Ces9rQ255C3MOuQzwB1HMJ8f
=BuKZ
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----

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[Greg Smith]

Post by Volker Bandke
How do you manage LOCKING/SERIALIZATION? Which means: What happens
if two clients access the same device on the server
How do you manage LOGGING/RECOVERY? Which means: What happens if
client A updates a DASD image on server B, and then either A or B
abend. How do you rollback/rollforward/synchronize?

Basically when a system starts a channel program to a device the
device looks busy to all other systems until that channel program
finishes. There are techniques to get around this problem. For
example, if the channel program uses the DX ccw (define extent)
then we could just make that extent on the device look busy.

The code now just makes sure only one channel program at a time is
running against a device. Field dev->ioactive contains the
identifier of the system currently accessing the device. A value
of zero means the local system is active on the device. A value > 0
means some remote system is active on the device. A negative value
means the device is not active. Likewise field dev->reserved
identifies which system has the device reserved. While the device
is reserved no other system can access the device.

If a system goes away while active or reserved on a device then
you have a problem. The idea is to wait awhile and hope for that
system to come back. Otherwise, we can disconnect that system
and make the device available to other systems.

`Records' (which can mean ckd tracks or groups of fba blocks or
whatever else) only have their updates committed at a record
`switch' or at channel program end. That is if a system is
updating a ckd track image and then disappears then that partially
updated track image also disappears. This way track images remain
coherent (in theory anyways). Otherwise we could have an incomplete
track image without, say, an end-of-track (EOT) marker and then
would be accessing garbage when trying to read that image.

To me, the cool part is accessing your disks remotely. I won't
have to have copies of my disks on each of my systems and try to
keep them synchronized.

Greg


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[Adam Thornton]

Well, the first 9-track we bought off eBay probably works, but has some
bizarre interface, rather than any sort of SCSI interface.

The second one has a SCSI interface but refuses to load any tape.

Before continuing to throw money at this route...

There have been several Herculeans who have offered use of their 9-track
tape drives to us. The issue has been that shipping the tapes costs on
the order of a thousand dollars, and we don't want to do that again.

However.....

Shipping a drive should be a whole lot cheaper. So, let me turn this
around.

Does anyone have a 9-track drive with a SCSI-1 HVD interface, that
they'd be willing to lend to us in Houston? We'd pay shipping to and
from (assuming it wasn't ridiculous; if you live in Australia, it's
probably ridiculous) your location. I don't know how long we'd need it
for--there are a lot of tapes to convert.

Dave Jones, djones-PmMlWm1tRC+***@public.gmane.org, has the tapes, so contact him if
you're willing to give this a shot.

Thanks,
Adam


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[ivan_warhead]

Please please !!! Someone send him a tape ! I want my 8205 Put tape !

--Ivan

Post by Adam Thornton
Well, the first 9-track we bought off eBay probably works, but has some
bizarre interface, rather than any sort of SCSI interface.
The second one has a SCSI interface but refuses to load any tape.
Before continuing to throw money at this route...
There have been several Herculeans who have offered use of their 9-

track

Post by Adam Thornton
tape drives to us. The issue has been that shipping the tapes

costs on

Post by Adam Thornton
the order of a thousand dollars, and we don't want to do that

again.

Post by Adam Thornton
However.....
Shipping a drive should be a whole lot cheaper. So, let me turn this
around.
Does anyone have a 9-track drive with a SCSI-1 HVD interface, that
they'd be willing to lend to us in Houston? We'd pay shipping to and
from (assuming it wasn't ridiculous; if you live in Australia, it's
probably ridiculous) your location. I don't know how long we'd need it
for--there are a lot of tapes to convert.
you're willing to give this a shot.
Thanks,
Adam

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[b***@public.gmane.org]

I'm consulting to a company that is looking for a systems programmer.
There's a contract in Louisiana that needs one for a year. Anyone
interested?



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[b***@public.gmane.org]

I realized that I should have qualified this more completely.. they are
looking for someone with experience in a signficant subset of these skills
...

IBM System/390 Enterprise Support Skill Set:



CICS Transaction Server

Content Manager

DB2

Enterprise Information Portal

Firewall

GRS

HCD

HSM

IMS Databases

Infoprint Server

Infoprint Server Exits

Infoprint Server Transforms

IPCS

ISPF

JES2

LDAP

MSYS for Operations

MSYS for Setup

NFS

Parallel Sysplex

DB2

Tape Switching

HCD CFRM - Policies

RACF

RMF

RMM

SCLM

SMP/E

SMS - including OAM and ACS coding

SNA/SNI

TCP/IP

Telnet 3270 Secure and Non-Secure Both HOD/PCOM

Tivoli Storage Manager

Unix System Services

WLM

Netview & Netview Automation



Systems Management


Operating System z/OS and Subsystems

Applications CICS, DLI, DB2 and Batch

WebSphere Application Server





Systems Application Development


Assembler - Exits (JES/Infoprint)

REXX - Z/OS

COBOL

C/C++ OS/390

Unix System Services Scripting



Capacity Planning


Computer Complex and Peripherals (Operating System)

Applications





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[halfmeg]

Post by b***@public.gmane.org
I realized that I should have qualified this more completely.. they
are looking for someone with experience in a signficant subset of
these skills
...

<snip>

Kitchen Sink Skill Set

Any idea on rate range?

Phil - $1.50 is just a little below scale for apprentice level


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[Ralph Castaldi]

Hi Bob,

I would like to apply for this job.

Would you have any more details on how to apply?
Thanks
regards
Ralph Castaldi

Post by b***@public.gmane.org
I'm consulting to a company that is looking for a
systems programmer.
There's a contract in Louisiana that needs one for a
year. Anyone
interested?

__________________________________
Do you Yahoo!?
The New Yahoo! Search - Faster. Easier. Bingo.
http://search.yahoo.com

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[Ken Dreger]

Good God, they don't want much do they !! and all in one person
!!! find that person and I will hire them .....
and prob at $1.50 / hr :-)

Good luck.

Ken Dreger

Post by b***@public.gmane.org
I realized that I should have qualified this more completely.. they are
looking for someone with experience in a signficant subset of these skills
...
CICS Transaction Server
Content Manager
DB2
Enterprise Information Portal
Firewall
GRS
HCD
HSM
IMS Databases
Infoprint Server
Infoprint Server Exits
Infoprint Server Transforms
IPCS
ISPF
JES2
LDAP
MSYS for Operations
MSYS for Setup
NFS
Parallel Sysplex
DB2
Tape Switching
HCD CFRM - Policies
RACF
RMF
RMM
SCLM
SMP/E
SMS - including OAM and ACS coding
SNA/SNI
TCP/IP
Telnet 3270 Secure and Non-Secure Both HOD/PCOM
Tivoli Storage Manager
Unix System Services
WLM
Netview & Netview Automation
Systems Management
Operating System z/OS and Subsystems
Applications CICS, DLI, DB2 and Batch
WebSphere Application Server
Systems Application Development
Assembler - Exits (JES/Infoprint)
REXX - Z/OS
COBOL
C/C++ OS/390
Unix System Services Scripting
Capacity Planning
Computer Complex and Peripherals (Operating System)
Applications
Yahoo! Groups Sponsor
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Kenneth G. Dreger

Sr. IBM Systems Programmer
Consultant in OS390, z/OS Systems & support,
z/OS & OS390 Capacity & Performance reporting,
Linux 390 systems support, Web page consulting,
High Tech Investigations
Member Southern California HTCIA
Personal Home pages: http://www.ken.dreger.com
Contracting services available at reasonable rates
Contact: ken-J9FkCKeOIOjQT0dZR+***@public.gmane.org

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[Gary]

Looks like someone went down the list of skills in a manual somewhere and
listed everything they thought they would need.

Good luck is right.
-----Original Message-----
From: Ken Dreger [mailto:ken-J9FkCKeOIOjQT0dZR+***@public.gmane.org]
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 2:18 PM
To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Possible job


Good God, they don't want much do they !! and all in one person
!!! find that person and I will hire them .....
and prob at $1.50 / hr :-)

Good luck.

Ken Dreger

Post by b***@public.gmane.org
I realized that I should have qualified this more completely.. they are
looking for someone with experience in a signficant subset of these skills
...
CICS Transaction Server
Content Manager
DB2
Enterprise Information Portal
Firewall
GRS
HCD
HSM
IMS Databases
Infoprint Server
Infoprint Server Exits
Infoprint Server Transforms
IPCS
ISPF
JES2
LDAP
MSYS for Operations
MSYS for Setup
NFS
Parallel Sysplex
DB2
Tape Switching
HCD CFRM - Policies
RACF
RMF
RMM
SCLM
SMP/E
SMS - including OAM and ACS coding
SNA/SNI
TCP/IP
Telnet 3270 Secure and Non-Secure Both HOD/PCOM
Tivoli Storage Manager
Unix System Services
WLM
Netview & Netview Automation
Systems Management
Operating System z/OS and Subsystems
Applications CICS, DLI, DB2 and Batch
WebSphere Application Server
Systems Application Development
Assembler - Exits (JES/Infoprint)
REXX - Z/OS
COBOL
C/C++ OS/390
Unix System Services Scripting
Capacity Planning
Computer Complex and Peripherals (Operating System)
Applications
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Post by b***@public.gmane.org
13017d53.jpg
<http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390>http://groups.yahoo.com/group/h

ercules-390

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<http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules>http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
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Kenneth G. Dreger

Sr. IBM Systems Programmer
Consultant in OS390, z/OS Systems & support,
z/OS & OS390 Capacity & Performance reporting,
Linux 390 systems support, Web page consulting,
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Member Southern California HTCIA
Personal Home pages: http://www.ken.dreger.com
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[b***@public.gmane.org]

Post by Gary
Looks like someone went down the list of skills in a manual somewhere and
listed everything they thought they would need.

Yeah .. this is what the customer wants, not necessarily what they'll get.
I'm just a consultant in northern Virginia, and my customer knows I've done
some mainframe in the past and play with Herc, so they asked me if I might
know someone....





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[Gary]

Yeah, I understand...

I did a stint (2+ years) but still a stint, for Turner (as in Ted, as in
CNN, et. al.). Their original requirement list was a laundry list also. I
told them what I didn't have I could learn quickly enough since I had, at
that time, 10 years experience. They bought it, or shall I say, me. The
rest is history and they paid their bills on time. Their time, but on time.
<g>
-----Original Message-----
From: bob-***@public.gmane.org [mailto:***@jftr.com]
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 3:15 PM
To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Possible job

Post by Gary
Looks like someone went down the list of skills in a manual somewhere and
listed everything they thought they would need.

Yeah .. this is what the customer wants, not necessarily what they'll get.
I'm just a consultant in northern Virginia, and my customer knows I've
done
some mainframe in the past and play with Herc, so they asked me if I might
know someone....





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[Scott Vetter]

Would they permit telecommuting?

Scott

Post by b***@public.gmane.org

Post by Gary
Looks like someone went down the list of skills in a manual somewhere and
listed everything they thought they would need.

Yeah .. this is what the customer wants, not necessarily what they'll get.
I'm just a consultant in northern Virginia, and my customer knows I've done
some mainframe in the past and play with Herc, so they asked me if I might
know someone....

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[b***@public.gmane.org]

Unfortunately, no. I had spoken to someone who would have taken it if it
could be done remotely.

----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Vetter" <svetter-yWtbtysYrB+***@public.gmane.org>
To: <hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Thursday, May 22, 2003 9:50 PM
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Possible job

Post by Scott Vetter
Would they permit telecommuting?
Scott

Post by b***@public.gmane.org

Post by Gary
Looks like someone went down the list of skills in a manual somewhere and
listed everything they thought they would need.

Yeah .. this is what the customer wants, not necessarily what they'll get.
I'm just a consultant in northern Virginia, and my customer knows I've done
some mainframe in the past and play with Herc, so they asked me if I might
know someone....

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

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[halfmeg]

Post by Adam Thornton
Well, the first 9-track we bought off eBay probably works, but has
some bizarre interface, rather than any sort of SCSI interface.

Probably a PERTEC interface or as you state bizarre.

Post by Adam Thornton
The second one has a SCSI interface but refuses to load any tape.
Before continuing to throw money at this route...
There have been several Herculeans who have offered use of their
9-track tape drives to us. The issue has been that shipping the
tapes costs on the order of a thousand dollars, and we don't want
to do that again.
However.....
Shipping a drive should be a whole lot cheaper. So, let me turn
this around.
Does anyone have a 9-track drive with a SCSI-1 HVD interface, that
they'd be willing to lend to us in Houston? We'd pay shipping to
and from (assuming it wasn't ridiculous; if you live in Australia,
it's probably ridiculous) your location. I don't know how long
we'd need it for--there are a lot of tapes to convert.
you're willing to give this a shot.
Thanks,
Adam

Hmmmm, don't think you would really want an HVD interface for 9-track.

Have 9-track SCSI here, (Ivan we should have posted 8205 PUT tape
somewhere already). Also have recently acquired 24ft box van truck
with tailgate lift (currently occupied with my daughters' household
items). So how many pallets of tapes are there?

Phil - I really shouldn't stay away sooooo long :-)


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[Jay Maynard]

Post by halfmeg

Post by Adam Thornton
Well, the first 9-track we bought off eBay probably works, but has
some bizarre interface, rather than any sort of SCSI interface.

Probably a PERTEC interface or as you state bizarre.

Further, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the second drive was merely a
SCSI-to-Pertec controller and a Pertec-interfaced drive.

Post by halfmeg
Hmmmm, don't think you would really want an HVD interface for 9-track.

Probably not. A single-ended interface is the expected standard.

Post by halfmeg
Have 9-track SCSI here, (Ivan we should have posted 8205 PUT tape
somewhere already). Also have recently acquired 24ft box van truck
with tailgate lift (currently occupied with my daughters' household
items). So how many pallets of tapes are there?

3. In Houston.

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[Gregg C Levine]

Hello from Gregg C Levine
So, this is indeed the batch of tapes, that I've been hearing
about....

Any ideas, anyone, what the S/360 tapes consist of? Or which platform
they are all for?
-------------------
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon-XfrvlLN1Pqtfpb/***@public.gmane.org
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke."  Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )

Post by Gary
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 11:15 PM
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Re: Update on the tape project

Post by halfmeg

Post by Adam Thornton
Well, the first 9-track we bought off eBay probably works, but has
some bizarre interface, rather than any sort of SCSI interface.

Probably a PERTEC interface or as you state bizarre.

Further, I wouldn't be at all surprised if the second drive was merely a
SCSI-to-Pertec controller and a Pertec-interfaced drive.

Post by halfmeg
Hmmmm, don't think you would really want an HVD interface for 9-track.

Probably not. A single-ended interface is the expected standard.

Post by halfmeg
Have 9-track SCSI here, (Ivan we should have posted 8205 PUT tape
somewhere already). Also have recently acquired 24ft box van truck
with tailgate lift (currently occupied with my daughters'

household

Post by Gary

Post by halfmeg
items). So how many pallets of tapes are there?

3. In Houston.

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[halfmeg]

<snip>

Post by Jay Maynard

Post by halfmeg
So how many pallets of tapes are there?

3. In Houston.

Forgive me if I am dense on the above response. Are there 3 pallets
of tapes in Houston or is this the third item commented on in
previous post.

If 3 pallets in Houston, then I need to clear out the truck and pick
up a shipment to Houston, then bring them back for conversion if all
applicable parties agree.

Phil - on the road again (maybe)


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[Adam Thornton]

Post by halfmeg
<snip>

Post by Jay Maynard

Post by halfmeg
So how many pallets of tapes are there?

3. In Houston.

Forgive me if I am dense on the above response. Are there 3 pallets
of tapes in Houston or is this the third item commented on in
previous post.
If 3 pallets in Houston, then I need to clear out the truck and pick
up a shipment to Houston, then bring them back for conversion if all
applicable parties agree.

3 pallets, in Houston. (3, or 4, Dave?) Dave, would this be
acceptable?

Adam


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[somitcw]

Phil, my van is still available. It's a big van.
Just call or write if you need assistance.
I haven't been to Houston for years.

Post by halfmeg
<snip>

Post by Jay Maynard

Post by halfmeg
So how many pallets of tapes are there?

3. In Houston.

Forgive me if I am dense on the above response.
Are there 3 pallets of tapes in Houston or is
this the third item commented on in previous post.
If 3 pallets in Houston, then I need to clear out
the truck and pick up a shipment to Houston, then
bring them back for conversion if all applicable
parties agree.
Phil - on the road again (maybe)

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[Fish]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Are you sure it's big *enough*? I mean, they *are* talking about a
*lot* of tapes here! (three *big* pallets worth!)

Here's a picture of them they posted a while back:

Loading Image...

Are you sure a van -- even a big one -- could handle a load that
size?? :)

- --
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
fish-6N/dkqvhA+***@public.gmane.org

Fight Spam! Join CAUCE!
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Post by Gary
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 11:01 pm
Subject: [hercules-390] Re: Update on the tape project
Phil, my van is still available. It's a big van.
Just call or write if you need assistance.
I haven't been to Houston for years.

Post by halfmeg
<snip>

Post by Jay Maynard

Post by halfmeg
So how many pallets of tapes are there?

3. In Houston.

Forgive me if I am dense on the above response.
Are there 3 pallets of tapes in Houston or is
this the third item commented on in previous post.
If 3 pallets in Houston, then I need to clear out
the truck and pick up a shipment to Houston, then
bring them back for conversion if all applicable
parties agree.
Phil - on the road again (maybe)

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[Adam Thornton]

Post by Volker Bandke
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Are you sure it's big *enough*? I mean, they *are* talking about a
*lot* of tapes here! (three *big* pallets worth!)
http://www.fsf.net/~adam/HPIM0084.JPG
Are you sure a van -- even a big one -- could handle a load that
size?? :)

A 24-foot box van with a tailgate lift should be able to.

Adam


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[Fish]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
<snip>

Post by Adam Thornton

Post by Fish
Are you sure a van -- even a big one -- could handle a load
that size?? :)

A 24-foot box van with a tailgate lift should be able to.

I wasn't referring to Phil's post, I was referring to somitcw's:
"Phil, my van is still available. It's a big van. Just call or write
if you need assistance. I haven't been to Houston for years."

But even a "24-foot box 'van'" isn't, to me, a "van", but more
correctly a *truck* (i.e. a much LARGER-ish *freight*-mover), whereas
(again, to ME anyway) a "van" is more along the lines of an SUV (i.e.
a sometimes "large-ish" *people*-mover):

van n. 1. An enclosed boxlike motor vehicle
having rear or side doors and side panels
especially for transporting people.

truck n. 1. Any of various heavy motor vehicles
designed for carrying or pulling loads.

Let's forget it though. It's not important anyway. I just wanted to
point out to somitcw that his so-called "van" had better be more
along the lines of a truck than what I envision a van to be, that's
all. :)

- --
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fish-6N/dkqvhA+***@public.gmane.org

Fight Spam! Join CAUCE!
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[Adam Thornton]

Post by Fish
Let's forget it though. It's not important anyway.

No! I refuse! We must have a horrible flame war that leaves shattered
burning bodies strewn about the streets. In fact, only Hitler would
advocate dropping the topic now!

Adam


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[Fish]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

Post by Adam Thornton

Post by Fish
Let's forget it though. It's not important anyway.

No! I refuse! We must have a horrible flame war that leaves
shattered burning bodies strewn about the streets. In fact,
only Hitler would advocate dropping the topic now!

(Heh!)

:)

- --
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fish-6N/dkqvhA+***@public.gmane.org

Fight Spam! Join CAUCE!
http://www.cauce.org/

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[Jay Maynard]

Post by Fish
But even a "24-foot box 'van'" isn't, to me, a "van", but more
correctly a *truck* (i.e. a much LARGER-ish *freight*-mover)

I used a 24-foot box truck just like the one Phil's describing to move from
Houston to Fairmont. All of my stuff would have fit comfortably in it,
although as it happens, I stuck computers and clothes and my 5-foot-tall Dot
Warner plushie in my car, which got towed on a flatbed trailer behind the
truck. (Dot rode in the driver's seat.)

What I'm wondering is: Phil, is the job market for computer types so bad you
had to get into the trucking business?

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[halfmeg]

Post by Jay Maynard
snip>
I used a 24-foot box truck just like the one Phil's describing to
move from Houston to Fairmont. All of my stuff would have fit
comfortably in it,

Haven't put any pallets into it but it would probably hold 10 alright.

Post by Jay Maynard
What I'm wondering is: Phil, is the job market for computer types
so bad you had to get into the trucking business?

Since June 2001 we have not had a contract with anyone. The
occasional "can you help me with a PC" type thing is always there (
as soon as someone knows you can fix stuff ), but no money coming
in. The purchase of the moving "van" assisted in moving of several
folks (family) and now storage of household items instead of renting
a storage center spot for a few months until my daughter (with my
assistance) gets her newly purchased place rennovated.

There have been several openings in Atlanta (downtown), but have now
gotten spoiled to not having to fly out of town each week and/or
fighting traffic every morning and evening, so don't exactly know
what I will wind up doing.

Phil - only 12 years to go for the 2 retirements to kick in


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[Paul Raulerson]

When I just want to play, I love to load up old VM or MVS under Hercules and just have a lot of fun. But, I was wondering the other
day, what other OS's, (I could OS/360 and such as 'MVS') are available to play with?

Are old versions of say, DOS/VS, Music, TPF, or other systems available?
I know that IBSYS for a 7094 and Autocoder for a 1401 are available under other emulators,
and I know how difficult it is to retrieve stuff from the early days, but I'm wondering just out of curiosity.

Linux/390 under Hercules is also a lot of fun, though a bit too slow for any kind of production work. (By too slow, I mean basically
that DASD is too slow. To load up a basic indexed file
may take only seconds of user time, but it takes minutes of system time. I'm poking around in the code now to see if I can figure
out what it is, but only in my very limited free time. Much more fun to play around in VM/370! :)

-Paul



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[somitcw]

Post by Paul Raulerson
When I just want to play, I love to load up old VM
or MVS under Hercules and just have a lot of fun.
But, I was wondering the other day, what other OS's,
(I could OS/360 and such as 'MVS') are available to
play with?
Are old versions of say, DOS/VS, Music, TPF, or
other systems available?

DOS/VS Rel.34 is available from:
http://www.cbttape.org/osvs1.htm
Why DOS/VS is listed under OS/VS1 is a mystery.
To install, see:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390/files/
dos3350.txt
and several files from:
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/H390-DOSVS/files/

So far, no one has found a copy of DOS/VSE
Rel.35 without AF1 and AF2.

Music/SP was for-charge software. I don't
know about earlier Music, but assume McGill
sold licenses for it.

The TPF versions that I know about were
for-charge. I don't know about ACP.

Post by Paul Raulerson
I know that IBSYS for a 7094 and Autocoder for a
1401 are available under other emulators, and I
know how difficult it is to retrieve stuff from
the early days, but I'm wondering just out of
curiosity.
Linux/390 under Hercules is also a lot of fun,
though a bit too slow for any kind of production
work. (By too slow, I mean basically that DASD
is too slow. To load up a basic indexed file may
take only seconds of user time, but it takes
minutes of system time. I'm poking around in the
code now to see if I can figure out what it is,
but only in my very limited free time. Much more
fun to play around in VM/370! :)
-Paul

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[peter_flass]

Post by somitcw

Post by Paul Raulerson
Are old versions of say, DOS/VS, Music, TPF, or
other systems available?

http://www.cbttape.org/osvs1.htm
...

How about MTS?



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[Fish]

-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1

<snip>

Linux/390 under Hercules is [...] a bit too
slow for any kind of production work. (By too slow, I mean
basically that DASD is too slow. To load up a basic indexed
file may take only seconds of user time, but it takes minutes
of system time. I'm poking around in the code now to see if I
can figure out what it is, but only in my very limited free time.

<snip>

IODELAY? (You *do* know it's only needed when formatting dasd during
sysgen, but not afterwards when actually using (running/executing)
the resulting generated system, don't you? At least that's my
understanding of it. Greg?[1] Am I correct on this?)

- --
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
fish-6N/dkqvhA+***@public.gmane.org

Fight Spam! Join CAUCE!
http://www.cauce.org/

[1] Greg Smith was the one that found the bug in Linux/390 kernel
that the Hercules IODELAY configuration file parameter is designed to
work around.


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[Paul Raulerson]

Yes, I *do* know that, and I also know from personal experience that Hercules will bomb out
bigtime running Linux/390 under Windows with any IODELAY setting under 200. At least on my machines it will, YMMV.

Under Linux, IODELAY set to zero works just fine, but still is literally hundreds of
times slower than actual hardware.

-Paul

----- Original Message -----
From: "Fish" <fish-6N/dkqvhA+***@public.gmane.org>
To: <hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Sunday, May 25, 2003 5:23 PM

Post by Volker Bandke
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
<snip>

Linux/390 under Hercules is [...] a bit too
slow for any kind of production work. (By too slow, I mean
basically that DASD is too slow. To load up a basic indexed
file may take only seconds of user time, but it takes minutes
of system time. I'm poking around in the code now to see if I
can figure out what it is, but only in my very limited free time.

<snip>
IODELAY? (You *do* know it's only needed when formatting dasd during
sysgen, but not afterwards when actually using (running/executing)
the resulting generated system, don't you? At least that's my
understanding of it. Greg?[1] Am I correct on this?)
- --
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Fight Spam! Join CAUCE!
http://www.cauce.org/
[1] Greg Smith was the one that found the bug in Linux/390 kernel
that the Hercules IODELAY configuration file parameter is designed to
work around.
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNATURE-----
Version: PGP 7.0.4
iQA/AwUBPtFCbUj11/TE7j4qEQKjoACfQxuhMZsJOmHPYDXYvUnSn7Q8RLUAn2/a
n4Evg+aHuNKV0F3ARKVJoO+o
=tayT
-----END PGP SIGNATURE-----
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[zenith89]

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390/message/28546

Post by Paul Raulerson
When I just want to play, I love to load up old VM or MVS under

Hercules and just have a lot of fun. But, I was wondering the other

Post by Paul Raulerson
day, what other OS's, (I could OS/360 and such as 'MVS') are

available to play with?


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[edamjr]

Post by Paul Raulerson
When I just want to play, I love to load up old VM or MVS under

Hercules and just have a lot of fun. But, I was wondering the other

Post by Paul Raulerson
day, what other OS's, (I could OS/360 and such as 'MVS') are

available to play with?

What about DPPX? I had never heard of it, but I apparently own a
copy: I've recently bought a 9375, allegedly running DPPX, but
allegedly the boot volume is flaky... could use a distribution
tape... if I get it working I'll try it on Herc :-)

Mike



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[Enrico Sorichetti]

Post by edamjr
What about DPPX? I had never heard of it, but I apparently own a
copy: I've recently bought a 9375, allegedly running DPPX, but
allegedly the boot volume is flaky... could use a distribution
tape... if I get it working I'll try it on Herc :-)
Mike

Hi Mike,

DPPX ( distributed processing programming executive ) was the
operating system of the 8100 family and, if I am not completely
wrong, of the 3790 in 8100 emulation.
IBM ported it to the 370 family and it beacam PX/370.

this is just a hint.

searching with google "DPPX" will give You lots of matches.

here is an example ....

by R. Abraham, B. F. Goodrich

The DPPX/SP operating system was converted from its original
implementation on the IBM 8100 Information System architecture to a
new implementation-PX/370- the System/370 architecture of the ES/9370
Information System processors. Portability was not an original design
objective for DPPX, and yet the conversion of the operating system
was straightforward and successful. This paper investigates the
design fundamentals and technical approaches that led to the
successful porting of DPPX/SP to the ES/9370.

Related Subjects: Operating Systems

.... all the usual copyright intellectual property b******t
regards

enrico sorichetti


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[Scott Vetter]

The 3790 in 8100 emulation? Would have thought it the other way
around since the 3790 was before the 8100.

Scott

Post by Enrico Sorichetti

Post by edamjr
What about DPPX? I had never heard of it, but I apparently own a
copy: I've recently bought a 9375, allegedly running DPPX, but
allegedly the boot volume is flaky... could use a distribution
tape... if I get it working I'll try it on Herc :-)
Mike

Hi Mike,
DPPX ( distributed processing programming executive ) was the
operating system of the 8100 family and, if I am not completely
wrong, of the 3790 in 8100 emulation.
IBM ported it to the 370 family and it beacam PX/370.
this is just a hint.
searching with google "DPPX" will give You lots of matches.
here is an example ....
by R. Abraham, B. F. Goodrich
The DPPX/SP operating system was converted from its original
implementation on the IBM 8100 Information System architecture to a
new implementation-PX/370- the System/370 architecture of the ES/9370
Information System processors. Portability was not an original design
objective for DPPX, and yet the conversion of the operating system
was straightforward and successful. This paper investigates the
design fundamentals and technical approaches that led to the
successful porting of DPPX/SP to the ES/9370.
Related Subjects: Operating Systems
.... all the usual copyright intellectual property b******t
regards
enrico sorichetti

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[cube1us]

There were actually two operating systems for the 8100.

One was DPCX, typically used when emulating or converting 3790
applications (I forget the exact dtails). (I actually saw a 3790
shortly before we got our 8100's).

DPPX was the "native" 8100 operating system. Elegant in some ways,
but serious overkill for a relatively slow machine.

If indeed someone has an 8100, I do have floppy distribution media
for it. However, you will need to provide me proof of license before
* loan them to you to copy. Contact me offline about what version of
DPPX and any other associated products you have, and I can check if I
have floppies for that or an earlier version.

Jay Jaeger

Post by Scott Vetter
The 3790 in 8100 emulation? Would have thought it the other way
around since the 3790 was before the 8100.
Scott

Post by Enrico Sorichetti

Post by edamjr
What about DPPX? I had never heard of it, but I apparently own a
copy: I've recently bought a 9375, allegedly running DPPX, but
allegedly the boot volume is flaky... could use a distribution
tape... if I get it working I'll try it on Herc :-)
Mike

Hi Mike,
DPPX ( distributed processing programming executive ) was the
operating system of the 8100 family and, if I am not completely
wrong, of the 3790 in 8100 emulation.
IBM ported it to the 370 family and it beacam PX/370.
this is just a hint.
searching with google "DPPX" will give You lots of matches.
here is an example ....
by R. Abraham, B. F. Goodrich
The DPPX/SP operating system was converted from its original
implementation on the IBM 8100 Information System architecture to a
new implementation-PX/370- the System/370 architecture of the

ES/9370

Post by Scott Vetter

Post by Enrico Sorichetti
Information System processors. Portability was not an original design
objective for DPPX, and yet the conversion of the operating system
was straightforward and successful. This paper investigates the
design fundamentals and technical approaches that led to the
successful porting of DPPX/SP to the ES/9370.
Related Subjects: Operating Systems
.... all the usual copyright intellectual property b******t
regards
enrico sorichetti

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[Scott Vetter]

Both were neat machines and ahead of their time (and technology).

Scott

Post by cube1us
There were actually two operating systems for the 8100.
One was DPCX, typically used when emulating or converting 3790
applications (I forget the exact dtails). (I actually saw a 3790
shortly before we got our 8100's).
DPPX was the "native" 8100 operating system. Elegant in some ways,
but serious overkill for a relatively slow machine.
If indeed someone has an 8100, I do have floppy distribution media
for it. However, you will need to provide me proof of license before
* loan them to you to copy. Contact me offline about what version of
DPPX and any other associated products you have, and I can check if I
have floppies for that or an earlier version.
Jay Jaeger

Post by Scott Vetter
The 3790 in 8100 emulation? Would have thought it the other way
around since the 3790 was before the 8100.
Scott

Post by Enrico Sorichetti

Post by edamjr
What about DPPX? I had never heard of it, but I apparently own a
copy: I've recently bought a 9375, allegedly running DPPX, but
allegedly the boot volume is flaky... could use a distribution
tape... if I get it working I'll try it on Herc :-)
Mike

Hi Mike,
DPPX ( distributed processing programming executive ) was the
operating system of the 8100 family and, if I am not completely
wrong, of the 3790 in 8100 emulation.
IBM ported it to the 370 family and it beacam PX/370.
this is just a hint.
searching with google "DPPX" will give You lots of matches.
here is an example ....
by R. Abraham, B. F. Goodrich
The DPPX/SP operating system was converted from its original
implementation on the IBM 8100 Information System architecture to

a

Post by Scott Vetter

Post by Enrico Sorichetti
new implementation-PX/370- the System/370 architecture of the

ES/9370

Post by Scott Vetter

Post by Enrico Sorichetti
Information System processors. Portability was not an original

design

Post by Scott Vetter

Post by Enrico Sorichetti
objective for DPPX, and yet the conversion of the operating system
was straightforward and successful. This paper investigates the
design fundamentals and technical approaches that led to the
successful porting of DPPX/SP to the ES/9370.
Related Subjects: Operating Systems
.... all the usual copyright intellectual property b******t
regards
enrico sorichetti

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---------------------------------------------------------------------~->

[cube1us]

I would not agree with that assessment at all. While DPPX did have
some interesting concepts regarding machine failure recovery, others
had already implemented those concepts (some of them were in MVS).

As far as machine architecture (from a programmer's perspective) DEC
PDP-11's had them beat almost a decade earlier, and probably at lower
cost.

Jay Jaeger

Post by Scott Vetter
Both were neat machines and ahead of their time (and technology).
Scott

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[Scott Vetter]

To each his own... Having only seen at the time large Burroughs and
IBM systems, it was pretty neat at the time in my eyes.

Scott

Post by cube1us
I would not agree with that assessment at all. While DPPX did have
some interesting concepts regarding machine failure recovery, others
had already implemented those concepts (some of them were in MVS).
As far as machine architecture (from a programmer's perspective) DEC
PDP-11's had them beat almost a decade earlier, and probably at lower
cost.
Jay Jaeger

Post by Scott Vetter
Both were neat machines and ahead of their time (and technology).
Scott

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[Ronald Tatum]

Well, folks, I had the dubious job of trying to keep an 8100 DPPX with a
slew of 8775s, 3641s, etc. running in a large machine shop environment back
in the mid-80s.

The best I could tell, the stuff that IBM sold the company that was written
in PS3640(??) and seemed to be assembler-level stuff ran sort of OK, but the
applications the company did itself in COBOL were executed interpretively
and the whole system was a dog.

I later was involved in getting CICS up for the County of Sacremento, and
observed that the Wang machine the secretaries used for word processing and
some accounting work was quite fast; about 2 months after I got there,
somebody decided to get rid of the Wang and replaced it with an 8100 running
the DPCX OS (I think) and the secretaries all cursed the slooow thing and
the management that had done such a horrible thing to them. I did observe
that the 8100 was a lot less responsive and much slower even on a simple
update to a word processing file than the Wang had been.

I also found out, back at the machine shop, that the diagnostic program that
was supposed to tell one about the moving head disk didn't do diddly squat.
One night about 10 PM the MHD went South, and I couldn't boot the system;
ran the diagnostic off a floppy, it said the disk was fine. Finally
(somewhere around 3AM) the IBM CE managed to find and install another MHD
and we managed to restore the thing from a backup tape that was only a month
old (turned out the 3rd shift op didn't like running the daily job to do a
backup, so he didn't do it). The IBM gentleman informed me that the MHD
diagnostic only proved that the machine could execute the MHD diagnostic,
and not much else. Bummer.
Regards,
Ron Tatum
----- Original Message -----
From: "Scott Vetter" <svetter-yWtbtysYrB+***@public.gmane.org>
To: <hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org>
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 9:50 PM

Post by Scott Vetter
To each his own... Having only seen at the time large Burroughs and
IBM systems, it was pretty neat at the time in my eyes.
Scott

Post by cube1us
I would not agree with that assessment at all. While DPPX did have
some interesting concepts regarding machine failure recovery, others
had already implemented those concepts (some of them were in MVS).
As far as machine architecture (from a programmer's perspective) DEC
PDP-11's had them beat almost a decade earlier, and probably at lower
cost.
Jay Jaeger

Post by Scott Vetter
Both were neat machines and ahead of their time (and technology).
Scott

http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
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[Scott Vetter]

Here is an interesting article concerning the DPPX OS:
http://domino.watson.ibm.com/tchjr/journalindex.nsf/0/a1d0b9f8d42f592185256bfa00685c30?OpenDocument

Scott

Post by cube1us
There were actually two operating systems for the 8100.
One was DPCX, typically used when emulating or converting 3790
applications (I forget the exact dtails). (I actually saw a 3790
shortly before we got our 8100's).
DPPX was the "native" 8100 operating system. Elegant in some ways,
but serious overkill for a relatively slow machine.
If indeed someone has an 8100, I do have floppy distribution media
for it. However, you will need to provide me proof of license before
* loan them to you to copy. Contact me offline about what version of
DPPX and any other associated products you have, and I can check if I
have floppies for that or an earlier version.
Jay Jaeger

Post by Scott Vetter
The 3790 in 8100 emulation? Would have thought it the other way
around since the 3790 was before the 8100.
Scott

Post by Enrico Sorichetti

Post by edamjr
What about DPPX? I had never heard of it, but I apparently own a
copy: I've recently bought a 9375, allegedly running DPPX, but
allegedly the boot volume is flaky... could use a distribution
tape... if I get it working I'll try it on Herc :-)
Mike

Hi Mike,
DPPX ( distributed processing programming executive ) was the
operating system of the 8100 family and, if I am not completely
wrong, of the 3790 in 8100 emulation.
IBM ported it to the 370 family and it beacam PX/370.
this is just a hint.
searching with google "DPPX" will give You lots of matches.
here is an example ....
by R. Abraham, B. F. Goodrich
The DPPX/SP operating system was converted from its original
implementation on the IBM 8100 Information System architecture to

a

Post by Scott Vetter

Post by Enrico Sorichetti
new implementation-PX/370- the System/370 architecture of the

ES/9370

Post by Scott Vetter

Post by Enrico Sorichetti
Information System processors. Portability was not an original

design

Post by Scott Vetter

Post by Enrico Sorichetti
objective for DPPX, and yet the conversion of the operating system
was straightforward and successful. This paper investigates the
design fundamentals and technical approaches that led to the
successful porting of DPPX/SP to the ES/9370.
Related Subjects: Operating Systems
.... all the usual copyright intellectual property b******t
regards
enrico sorichetti

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[Enrico Sorichetti]

Post by Scott Vetter
The 3790 in 8100 emulation? Would have thought it the other way
around since the 3790 was before the 8100.
Scott

Hi Scott,

sorry for the misinformation...
I am getting too many brain-checks lately!

enrico




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[Scott Vetter]

Post by Enrico Sorichetti

Post by Scott Vetter
The 3790 in 8100 emulation? Would have thought it the other way
around since the 3790 was before the 8100.
Scott

Hi Scott,
sorry for the misinformation...
I am getting too many brain-checks lately!
enrico

No problem... I did a little searching for the 3790/8100 and found
to my amazement the Siemens is still supporting them. Didn't check to
see what it would cost to get one of those beasts. Wouldn't know where
to put the thing anyway.

Scott


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[Graham Toal]

Post by Paul Raulerson
When I just want to play, I love to load up old VM or MVS under

Hercules and just have a lot of fun. But, I was wondering the other

Post by Paul Raulerson
day, what other OS's, (I could OS/360 and such as 'MVS') are

available to play with?

Post by Paul Raulerson
Are old versions of say, DOS/VS, Music, TPF, or other systems available?
I know that IBSYS for a 7094 and Autocoder for a 1401 are

available under other emulators,

Post by Paul Raulerson
and I know how difficult it is to retrieve stuff from the early

days, but I'm wondering just out of curiosity.
We have the sources of EMAS. However bootstrapping is going
to be a *major* project and we don't have the manpower yet.

One of our team has written an Imp compiler for Intel, so
we're part of the way there for bootstrapping.

Graham


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[cbmira01]

Post by Paul Raulerson
When I just want to play, I love to load up old VM or MVS under Hercules and just have a lot of fun. But, I was wondering the other
day, what other OS's, (I could OS/360 and such as 'MVS') are available to play with?
Are old versions of say, DOS/VS, Music, TPF, or other systems available?

I wonder if a machine-readable copy exists of Madnick
and Donovan's toy operating system for the IBM 370.
This appeared in their book "Operating Systems",
McGraw-Hill 1974.

This OS was written in 370 assembler and was designed
to illustrate operating system principles. In the book,
it was named "Sample Operating System 2.00, MIT 1973".
The book challenged the student to alter the code in order
to solve problems.

I'll bet it's resting in someone's archive right now, or
may be on a deck of cards in a closet! Let's bring it out
and feed it into Hercules...

-- Calvin Miracle
University of Louisville



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[zenith89]

(snip)
I wonder if a machine-readable copy exists of Madnick
and Donovan's toy operating system for the IBM 370.
(snip)

I believe it is in the Files section, madnick.zip

...CPV


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[Wesley Parish]

I can't seem to get to yahoo.com - something's trashing the connection - so
could someone email to me?

Thanks in advance.

Wesley Parish

Post by zenith89

(snip)
I wonder if a machine-readable copy exists of Madnick
and Donovan's toy operating system for the IBM 370.
(snip)

I believe it is in the Files section, madnick.zip
...CPV
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

--
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."

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[Gregg C Levine]

Hello from Gregg C Levine ( You know me, Wesley, the reluctant Jedi
Knight!)
Yes, I'd be delighted to do so. Bug me off line as soon as you get
this. How do you want it sent? As an attached Zip? As part of the
sending message?
-------------------
Gregg C Levine hansolofalcon-XfrvlLN1Pqtfpb/***@public.gmane.org
------------------------------------------------------------
"The Force will be with you...Always." Obi-Wan Kenobi
"Use the Force, Luke."  Obi-Wan Kenobi
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to General Obi-Wan Kenobi )
(This company dedicates this E-Mail to Master Yoda )

Post by Gary
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Wednesday, June 18, 2003 7:25 AM
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] Re: List of alternative Operating
I can't seem to get to yahoo.com - something's trashing the

connection - so

Post by Gary
could someone email to me?
Thanks in advance.
Wesley Parish

Post by zenith89

(snip)
I wonder if a machine-readable copy exists of Madnick
and Donovan's toy operating system for the IBM 370.
(snip)

I believe it is in the Files section, madnick.zip
...CPV
http://groups.yahoo.com/group/hercules-390
http://www.conmicro.cx/hercules
Your use of Yahoo! Groups is subject to

http://docs.yahoo.com/info/terms/

Post by Gary
--
Mau e ki, "He aha te mea nui?"
You ask, "What is the most important thing?"
Maku e ki, "He tangata, he tangata, he tangata."
I reply, "It is people, it is people, it is people."

Magic word "XYZZY".


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[peter_flass]

I've uploaded one to the "files" area. At one point I modified it to
use 4k pages instead of the original 2k. I'm not sure which I
uploaded, but I think I just came across my copy of the original the
other day. There's also a "3-card loaded" that will load the TEXT
deck after assembly without requiring that the deck be stripped.

Post by cbmira01

Post by Paul Raulerson
When I just want to play, I love to load up old VM or MVS under

Hercules and just have a lot of fun. But, I was wondering the other

Post by cbmira01

Post by Paul Raulerson
day, what other OS's, (I could OS/360 and such as 'MVS') are available to play with?
Are old versions of say, DOS/VS, Music, TPF, or other systems available?

I wonder if a machine-readable copy exists of Madnick
and Donovan's toy operating system for the IBM 370.
This appeared in their book "Operating Systems",
McGraw-Hill 1974.
This OS was written in 370 assembler and was designed
to illustrate operating system principles. In the book,
it was named "Sample Operating System 2.00, MIT 1973".
The book challenged the student to alter the code in order
to solve problems.
I'll bet it's resting in someone's archive right now, or
may be on a deck of cards in a closet! Let's bring it out
and feed it into Hercules...
-- Calvin Miracle
University of Louisville

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[peter_flass]

I've uploaded one to the "files" area. At one point I modified it to
use 4k pages instead of the original 2k. I'm not sure which I
uploaded, but I think I just came across my copy of the original the
other day. There's also a "3-card loaded" that will load the TEXT
deck after assembly without requiring that the deck be stripped.

Post by cbmira01

Post by Paul Raulerson
When I just want to play, I love to load up old VM or MVS under

Hercules and just have a lot of fun. But, I was wondering the other

Post by cbmira01

Post by Paul Raulerson
day, what other OS's, (I could OS/360 and such as 'MVS') are available to play with?
Are old versions of say, DOS/VS, Music, TPF, or other systems available?

I wonder if a machine-readable copy exists of Madnick
and Donovan's toy operating system for the IBM 370.
This appeared in their book "Operating Systems",
McGraw-Hill 1974.
This OS was written in 370 assembler and was designed
to illustrate operating system principles. In the book,
it was named "Sample Operating System 2.00, MIT 1973".
The book challenged the student to alter the code in order
to solve problems.
I'll bet it's resting in someone's archive right now, or
may be on a deck of cards in a closet! Let's bring it out
and feed it into Hercules...
-- Calvin Miracle
University of Louisville

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[s***@public.gmane.org]

Post by Volker Bandke
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
<snip>

Post by Adam Thornton

Post by Fish
Are you sure a van -- even a big one -- could handle a load
that size?? :)

A 24-foot box van with a tailgate lift should be able to.

"Phil, my van is still available. It's a big van. Just call or write
if you need assistance. I haven't been to Houston for years."
But even a "24-foot box 'van'" isn't, to me, a "van", but more
correctly a *truck* (i.e. a much LARGER-ish *freight*-mover), whereas
(again, to ME anyway) a "van" is more along the lines of an SUV (i.e.
van n. 1. An enclosed boxlike motor vehicle
having rear or side doors and side panels
especially for transporting people.
truck n. 1. Any of various heavy motor vehicles
designed for carrying or pulling loads.
Let's forget it though. It's not important anyway. I just wanted to

Ah, but the use of language is extrememly important. Do you recall my
use of the word "penurious?" Here, it's never used to mean stingy.

According to dictionary.com:
1. a. An enclosed boxlike motor vehicle having rear or
side doors and side panels especially for
transporting people.
b. A covered or enclosed truck or wagon often used
for transporting goods or livestock.

Here, 1a is a minibus or a microbus.
We don't use a "van" to transport livestock (possibly because it's quite
warm compared with some other places), but we do use them to transport
goods such as furniture (we have the term "furniture van").

Post by Volker Bandke
point out to somitcw that his so-called "van" had better be more
along the lines of a truck than what I envision a van to be, that's
all. :)

A furniture van may actually be a truck with a 6m container on it.
--
Cheers
John.

Join the "Linux Support by Small Businesses" list at
http://mail.computerdatasafe.com.au/mailman/listinfo/lssb



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[somitcw]

My van is the one that got my tapes to Phil for
recovery. I also had many years worth of tapes.
My van is the van the got the CUNY tapes to Phil
for recovery. My guess is that I had more tapes
than Princeton, but Princeton had more than CUNY.

My offer of assistance was not to replace Phil's
truck, but to carry part of the load and provide
any other assistance needed. If Phil doesn't have
the time to go, I'll be happy to get the tapes and
them deliver to him.

If any tapes are 7-track, that will be a problem.
Anything newer, we can handle.

Post by Volker Bandke
-----BEGIN PGP SIGNED MESSAGE-----
Hash: SHA1
Are you sure it's big *enough*? I mean, they *are* talking
about a *lot* of tapes here! (three *big* pallets worth!)
http://www.fsf.net/~adam/HPIM0084.JPG
Are you sure a van -- even a big one -- could handle a load
that size?? :)
- --
"Fish" (David B. Trout)
Fight Spam! Join CAUCE!
http://www.cauce.org/

Post by Gary
-----Original Message-----
Sent: Friday, May 23, 2003 11:01 pm
Subject: [hercules-390] Re: Update on the tape project
Phil, my van is still available. It's a big van.
Just call or write if you need assistance.
I haven't been to Houston for years.

Post by halfmeg
<snip>

Post by Jay Maynard

Post by halfmeg
So how many pallets of tapes are there?

3. In Houston.

Forgive me if I am dense on the above response.
Are there 3 pallets of tapes in Houston or is
this the third item commented on in previous post.
If 3 pallets in Houston, then I need to clear out
the truck and pick up a shipment to Houston, then
bring them back for conversion if all applicable
parties agree.
Phil - on the road again (maybe)

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Version: PGP 7.0.4
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[John Cassidy]

As long as it doesn't require JCL....
I realized that I should have qualified this more completely.. they are
looking for someone with experience in a signficant subset of these skills
...

IBM System/390 Enterprise Support Skill Set:



CICS Transaction Server

Content Manager

DB2

Enterprise Information Portal

Firewall

GRS

HCD

HSM

IMS Databases

Infoprint Server

Infoprint Server Exits

Infoprint Server Transforms

IPCS

ISPF

JES2

LDAP

MSYS for Operations

MSYS for Setup

NFS

Parallel Sysplex

DB2

Tape Switching

HCD CFRM - Policies

RACF

RMF

RMM

SCLM

SMP/E

SMS - including OAM and ACS coding

SNA/SNI

TCP/IP

Telnet 3270 Secure and Non-Secure Both HOD/PCOM

Tivoli Storage Manager

Unix System Services

WLM

Netview & Netview Automation



Systems Management


Operating System z/OS and Subsystems

Applications CICS, DLI, DB2 and Batch

WebSphere Application Server





Systems Application Development


Assembler - Exits (JES/Infoprint)

REXX - Z/OS

COBOL

C/C++ OS/390

Unix System Services Scripting



Capacity Planning


Computer Complex and Peripherals (Operating System)

Applications

[b***@public.gmane.org]

Post by John Cassidy
As long as it doesn't require JCL....

LOL!





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[Ken Dreger]

And they probably want a masters in IT ! and you should be under 25 years
old :-)

Anyway, who needs JCL anyway ......

Ken

Post by John Cassidy
As long as it doesn't require JCL....
I realized that I should have qualified this more completely.. they are
looking for someone with experience in a signficant subset of these skills
...
CICS Transaction Server
Content Manager
DB2
Enterprise Information Portal
Firewall
GRS
HCD
HSM
IMS Databases
Infoprint Server
Infoprint Server Exits
Infoprint Server Transforms
IPCS
ISPF
JES2
LDAP
MSYS for Operations
MSYS for Setup
NFS
Parallel Sysplex
DB2
Tape Switching
HCD CFRM - Policies
RACF
RMF
RMM
SCLM
SMP/E
SMS - including OAM and ACS coding
SNA/SNI
TCP/IP
Telnet 3270 Secure and Non-Secure Both HOD/PCOM
Tivoli Storage Manager
Unix System Services
WLM
Netview & Netview Automation
Systems Management
Operating System z/OS and Subsystems
Applications CICS, DLI, DB2 and Batch
WebSphere Application Server
Systems Application Development
Assembler - Exits (JES/Infoprint)
REXX - Z/OS
COBOL
C/C++ OS/390
Unix System Services Scripting
Capacity Planning
Computer Complex and Peripherals (Operating System)
Applications
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Sr. IBM Systems Programmer
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High Tech Investigations
Member Southern California HTCIA
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[Greg Smith]

Post by Greg Smith
I've not actually tested yet shared dasd... but rather `remote' dasd.
Hence the `sorta kinda'.

(replying to myself again)

I've been busy and have now tested shared dasd, and it seems to work
rather well (current cvs). Of course, if you create a shared dasd
scenario you have to know what you're doing. That is, the two systems
can't use the same page datasets, etc. I'm working on performance but
it seems rather tolerable now. I tried just a few hrs ago the below:


p3-850 x2 p4-1133
+-------------------+ 100mbs +-------------------+
| ______ | ______ | |
| (i) | \______ | _____ |
| / \ | | (s) |
| / \ | | | |
| (a) (b) | | ((())) |
| | | |
+-------------------+ +-------------------+
192.168.2.106 192.168.2.108

Clients (a) and (b) in a shared dasd environment are connected
to intermediate server (i) via unix sockets which in turn is
connected to server (s) via inet socket where the actual data
resides.

Config files are somewhat like:

(a) 0100 3350 localhost
0101 3350 localhost
(b) 0100 3350 localhost
0101 3350 localhost
(i) shrdport 3990
0100 3350 192.168.2.106
0101 3350 192.168.2.106
(s) shrdport 3990
0100 3350 mvsres.100
0101 3350 mvscat.100

IOW, I've been having *way* too much fun with this stuff ;-)

Greg


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[Greg Smith]

Post by Greg Smith
(i) shrdport 3990
0100 3350 192.168.2.106
0101 3350 192.168.2.106

Aaaacccckkkk ... according to the diagram the address should be
192.168.2.108


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[John Summerfield]

Post by Greg Smith
p3-850 x2 p4-1133
+-------------------+ 100mbs +-------------------+
| ______ | ______ | |
| (i) | \______ | _____ |
| / \ | | (s) |
| / \ | | | |
| (a) (b) | | ((())) |
| | | |
+-------------------+ +-------------------+
192.168.2.106 192.168.2.108

I was thinking that would be slow, then I thought again. BMX channels on the
168 could manage 1.5 Mbytes/sec, and the whole system 3.0.

It's actually rather quick. Now someone can run up a S/370 complex running
JES3;-)
--
Cheers
John Summerfield


Microsoft's most solid OS: http://www.geocities.com/rcwoolley/
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[Greg Smith]

Post by John Summerfield

Post by Greg Smith
p3-850 x2 p4-1133
+-------------------+ 100mbs +-------------------+
| ______ | ______ | |
| (i) | \______ | _____ |
| / \ | | (s) |
| / \ | | | |
| (a) (b) | | ((())) |
| | | |
+-------------------+ +-------------------+
192.168.2.106 192.168.2.108

I was thinking that would be slow, then I thought again. BMX channels on the
168 could manage 1.5 Mbytes/sec, and the whole system 3.0.
It's actually rather quick. Now someone can run up a S/370 complex running
JES3;-)

The above configuration is an illustration only. We could have (a) and (b)
talk directly to (s) without (i) at all. Or (a) talk to (b) which talks
to (s). Or, if there are disk images locally, (a) could access the images
and (b) talk to (a). Or (a) could have access to 1 image and talk to (b)
and (b) access the other image and talk to (a). All rather cool.

In the diagram above the images (s) accesses are compressed. Why would
that make (i) a good idea ?? ;-)

Greg



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[Harold Grovesteen]

0100 3350 192.168.2.106

Does the channel protocol flow over the socket connection or some protocol specific to the 3350 (or is 3350 the TCP port)? I have been thinking that just as IBM developed a standard interface for all devices with their parallel and ESCON channels, Hercules could support a Socket Channel over which any channel protocol could flow for any device. This would make possible some very interesting capabilities external to the Hercules program itself. A number of languages support sockets so an application written in Python or Java (which could run on either LINUX or Windows), for example, could emulate any device you wanted or even some RYO device with your own channel protocol (with support added to the guest OS on Hercules). A standardized set of classes could be written to support a "device" connection to the "Hercules Socket Channel."

I am assuming the same sort of thing can be done with the Hercules console via the HTTP Server support, but have not looked at the code.

Harold Grovesteen

----- Original Message -----
From: Greg Smith
To: hercules-390-***@public.gmane.org
Sent: Wednesday, May 28, 2003 10:12 PM
Subject: Re: [hercules-390] shared devices (sorta kinda)

Post by Greg Smith
I've not actually tested yet shared dasd... but rather `remote' dasd.
Hence the `sorta kinda'.

(replying to myself again)

I've been busy and have now tested shared dasd, and it seems to work
rather well (current cvs). Of course, if you create a shared dasd
scenario you have to know what you're doing. That is, the two systems
can't use the same page datasets, etc. I'm working on performance but
it seems rather tolerable now. I tried just a few hrs ago the below:


p3-850 x2 p4-1133
+-------------------+ 100mbs +-------------------+
| ______ | ______ | |
| (i) | \______ | _____ |
| / \ | | (s) |
| / \ | | | |
| (a) (b) | | ((())) |
| | | |
+-------------------+ +-------------------+
192.168.2.106 192.168.2.108

Clients (a) and (b) in a shared dasd environment are connected
to intermediate server (i) via unix sockets which in turn is
connected to server (s) via inet socket where the actual data
resides.

Config files are somewhat like:

(a) 0100 3350 localhost
0101 3350 localhost
(b) 0100 3350 localhost
0101 3350 localhost
(i) shrdport 3990
0100 3350 192.168.2.106
0101 3350 192.168.2.106
(s) shrdport 3990
0100 3350 mvsres.100
0101 3350 mvscat.100

IOW, I've been having *way* too much fun with this stuff ;-)

Greg


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[Greg Smith]

Post by Greg Smith
0100 3350 192.168.2.106
Does the channel protocol flow over the socket connection or some protocol specific to the 3350 (or is 3350 the TCP port)? I have been thinking that just as IBM developed a standard interface for all devices with their parallel and ESCON channels, Hercules could support a Socket Channel over which any channel protocol could flow for any device. This would make possible some very interesting capabilities external to the Hercules program itself. A number of languages support sockets so an application written in Python or Java (which could run on either LINUX or Windows), for example, could emulate any device you wanted or even some RYO device with your own channel protocol (with support added to the guest OS on Hercules). A standardized set of classes could be written to support a "device" connection to the "Hercules Socket Channel."
I am assuming the same sort of thing can be done with the Hercules console via the HTTP Server support, but have not looked at the code.

The device statement syntax is

<unit> <type> <type-specific-parameters>

so `3350' is the device type. For dasd, the next parameter is the file name.
If the file name doesn't exist, then the dasd driver will try to open the device
as a shared device. The syntax is <ipname-or-ipaddr>:<port>:<remote-unit>
The default port is `3990' and the default remote unit address is the unit address
So
0100 3350 localhost
is the same as
0100 3350 localhost:3990:0100

The protocol is specific to hercules shared devices only; by this I mean I made
it up and any resemblance to any other protocol is strictly coincidental.
However, if whatever we connect to conforms to the protocol then it could
be anything. The code as it is now does not attempt to emulate channel
protocol. Rather it is a means of shuffling data back and forth between hercules
instances and observing device allegiance (only one channel program can be active
at a time) and device reserve/release (no other system can start a channel
program on a reserved device). The protocol is currently doc'd in `shared.h'.

Greg


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