Rise of the Re-Leavers

[Vidcapper]

I wonder what MM will make of this...

Rise of the 'Re-Leavers' who voted AGAINST Brexit but now believe it
MUST happen and could propel May to massive majority on June 8

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4506710/Rise-Leavers-voted-AGAINST-Brexit.html

I know some of you don't like the Mail, so here is the source survey...

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/05/12/forget-52-rise-re-leavers-mean-pro-brexit-electora/

[James Harris]

Post by Vidcapper
I wonder what MM will make of this...
Rise of the 'Re-Leavers' who voted AGAINST Brexit but now believe it
MUST happen and could propel May to massive majority on June 8

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4506710/Rise-Leavers-voted-AGAINST-Brexit.html

I know some of you don't like the Mail, so here is the source survey...

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/05/12/forget-52-rise-re-leavers-mean-pro-brexit-electora/

Looks like the LibDems backed the wrong horse.

[The Todal]

Post by Vidcapper
I wonder what MM will make of this...
Rise of the 'Re-Leavers' who voted AGAINST Brexit but now believe it
MUST happen and could propel May to massive majority on June 8

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4506710/Rise-Leavers-voted-AGAINST-Brexit.html

I know some of you don't like the Mail, so here is the source survey...

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/05/12/forget-52-rise-re-leavers-mean-pro-brexit-electora/

But it's bollocks because it implies that only the Conservatives are
committed to Brexit and Labour is fishing in a smaller pond of
Remainers. That's obviously not true, because Labour has made it
perfectly clear that it is committed to leaving the EU. Demanding
scrutiny over the exit terms is only "remaining" if you are an imbecile,
such as the author of that article.

[abelard]

Post by The Todal

Post by Vidcapper
I wonder what MM will make of this...
Rise of the 'Re-Leavers' who voted AGAINST Brexit but now believe it
MUST happen and could propel May to massive majority on June 8

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4506710/Rise-Leavers-voted-AGAINST-Brexit.html

I know some of you don't like the Mail, so here is the source survey...

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/05/12/forget-52-rise-re-leavers-mean-pro-brexit-electora/

But it's bollocks because it implies that only the Conservatives are
committed to Brexit and Labour is fishing in a smaller pond of
Remainers. That's obviously not true, because Labour has made it
perfectly clear that it is committed to leaving the EU

yeah..since they begn torealise the fence was getting increasingly
uncomfortable even for their cowardly ways

Post by The Todal
. Demanding
scrutiny over the exit terms is only "remaining" if you are an imbecile,
such as the author of that article.

[Mike Scott]

.... That's obviously not true, because Labour has made it
perfectly clear that it is committed to leaving the EU.

Has it?

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/election-2017-39866807/would-corbyn-definitely-leave-the-eu

(Full marks to the interviewer, BTW :-)

[The Todal]

Post by Mike Scott

.... That's obviously not true, because Labour has made it
perfectly clear that it is committed to leaving the EU.

Has it?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/election-2017-39866807/would-corbyn-definitely-leave-the-eu
(Full marks to the interviewer, BTW :-)

Was the interviewer hoping that Corbyn would promise to take Britain out
of the EU even if the only available deal would plunge us into the
deepest ever recession with rampant inflation and huge job losses?

Is that what you'd like your Prime Minister to promise?

[abelard]

Post by The Todal

Post by Mike Scott

.... That's obviously not true, because Labour has made it
perfectly clear that it is committed to leaving the EU.

Has it?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/election-2017-39866807/would-corbyn-definitely-leave-the-eu
(Full marks to the interviewer, BTW :-)

Was the interviewer hoping that Corbyn would promise to take Britain out
of the EU even if the only available deal would plunge us into the
deepest ever recession with rampant inflation and huge job losses?
Is that what you'd like your Prime Minister to promise?

he'll say anything...typical leftist chancer

http://www.bbc.com/news/uk-politics-eu-referendum-35743994

he merely avoids putting himself on the line

[Vidcapper]

Post by The Todal

Post by Mike Scott

.... That's obviously not true, because Labour has made it
perfectly clear that it is committed to leaving the EU.

Has it?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/election-2017-39866807/would-corbyn-definitely-leave-the-eu
(Full marks to the interviewer, BTW :-)

Was the interviewer hoping that Corbyn would promise to take Britain out
of the EU even if the only available deal would plunge us into the
deepest ever recession with rampant inflation and huge job losses?

Which option do you claim that would be?

[Mike Scott]

Post by The Todal

Post by Mike Scott

.... That's obviously not true, because Labour has made it
perfectly clear that it is committed to leaving the EU.

Has it?
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/av/election-2017-39866807/would-corbyn-definitely-leave-the-eu
(Full marks to the interviewer, BTW :-)

Was the interviewer hoping that Corbyn would promise to take Britain out
of the EU even if the only available deal would plunge us into the

I am no mind reader. I suspect she was perhaps hoping for a definitive
answer to an important question. IMBW.

Post by The Todal
deepest ever recession with rampant inflation and huge job losses?
Is that what you'd like your Prime Minister to promise?

You're changing the point. What I wish for is not germane (except to ask
for clarity and honesty from politicians).

I was merely responding to the assertion that "...Labour has made it
perfectly clear..." -- showing it to be not exactly accurate.

'nuff said.

[Yellow]

In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@icloud.com
says...

Post by The Todal

Post by Vidcapper
I wonder what MM will make of this...
Rise of the 'Re-Leavers' who voted AGAINST Brexit but now believe it
MUST happen and could propel May to massive majority on June 8

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4506710/Rise-Leavers-voted-AGAINST-Brexit.html

I know some of you don't like the Mail, so here is the source survey...

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/05/12/forget-52-rise-re-leavers-mean-pro-brexit-electora/

But it's bollocks because it implies that only the Conservatives are
committed to Brexit and Labour is fishing in a smaller pond of
Remainers. That's obviously not true, because Labour has made it
perfectly clear that it is committed to leaving the EU. Demanding
scrutiny over the exit terms is only "remaining" if you are an imbecile,
such as the author of that article.

So you are arguing here that Labour are committed to leaving the EU
while elsewhere you have argued that Mrs May, once she has her huge
majority, will turn round and tell us we are not going to leave after
all.

And "demanding scrutiny" over the exit terms *is* remaining when your
yardstick for a good deal is that it must be exactly the same as what we
have now or the UK must negotiate in perpetuity, while remaining a
member.

[The Todal]

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by The Todal

Post by Vidcapper
I wonder what MM will make of this...
Rise of the 'Re-Leavers' who voted AGAINST Brexit but now believe it
MUST happen and could propel May to massive majority on June 8

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4506710/Rise-Leavers-voted-AGAINST-Brexit.html

I know some of you don't like the Mail, so here is the source survey...

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/05/12/forget-52-rise-re-leavers-mean-pro-brexit-electora/

But it's bollocks because it implies that only the Conservatives are
committed to Brexit and Labour is fishing in a smaller pond of
Remainers. That's obviously not true, because Labour has made it
perfectly clear that it is committed to leaving the EU. Demanding
scrutiny over the exit terms is only "remaining" if you are an imbecile,
such as the author of that article.

So you are arguing here that Labour are committed to leaving the EU
while elsewhere you have argued that Mrs May, once she has her huge
majority, will turn round and tell us we are not going to leave after
all.

Labour are as committed to leaving the EU as Theresa May.

Her large majority after June will however enable her to reverse the
referendum decision without fear of any repercussions, if she decides to
do so.

Post by Yellow
And "demanding scrutiny" over the exit terms *is* remaining when your
yardstick for a good deal is that it must be exactly the same as what we
have now or the UK must negotiate in perpetuity, while remaining a
member.

Not at all. To expect a deal that gives us free movement would be really
foolish, and Corbyn has stated openly that Brexit means the end of free
movement.

You seem unduly suspicious that Corbyn would want to block Brexit. He
has been in favour of leaving the EU for many years.

[Norman Wells]

Post by The Todal

Post by Yellow
So you are arguing here that Labour are committed to leaving the EU
while elsewhere you have argued that Mrs May, once she has her huge
majority, will turn round and tell us we are not going to leave after
all.

Labour are as committed to leaving the EU as Theresa May.

Yeah, yeah, course they are.

Post by The Todal
Her large majority after June will however enable her to reverse the
referendum decision without fear of any repercussions, if she decides to
do so.

The only repercussions would come from within her own party, as always
with the Tories as far as Europe is concerned, and at the next election
from the people.

So, no repercussions to bother her at all then.

Post by The Todal
Not at all. To expect a deal that gives us free movement would be really
foolish, and Corbyn has stated openly that Brexit means the end of free
movement.

Yes, he's really, really good at stating the obvious, isn't he?

Post by The Todal
You seem unduly suspicious that Corbyn would want to block Brexit. He
has been in favour of leaving the EU for many years.

That seems a good re-writing of history. How come none of us knew?

[The Todal]

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal

Post by Yellow
So you are arguing here that Labour are committed to leaving the EU
while elsewhere you have argued that Mrs May, once she has her huge
majority, will turn round and tell us we are not going to leave after
all.

Labour are as committed to leaving the EU as Theresa May.

Yeah, yeah, course they are.

Post by The Todal
Her large majority after June will however enable her to reverse the
referendum decision without fear of any repercussions, if she decides to
do so.

The only repercussions would come from within her own party, as always
with the Tories as far as Europe is concerned, and at the next election
from the people.

As David Cameron recently pointed out, to her embarrassment, one purpose
of achieving a large majority would be to enable her to stand up to
those in her party who want an extreme Brexit. The only logical
interpretation of that is, she must be able to call off Brexit if the
only available deal is an "extreme" one which could damage Britain.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/11/david-cameron-makes-campaign-comeback-hugs-pensioner/

At the next election, the people will continue to vote Tory if they are
Tory voters.

Post by Norman Wells
So, no repercussions to bother her at all then.

None whatsoever.

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal
Not at all. To expect a deal that gives us free movement would be really
foolish, and Corbyn has stated openly that Brexit means the end of free
movement.

Yes, he's really, really good at stating the obvious, isn't he?

Unfortunately there seem to be many Brexiters who are so very, very dim
that it is necessary to keep stating the obvious to them.

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal
You seem unduly suspicious that Corbyn would want to block Brexit. He
has been in favour of leaving the EU for many years.

That seems a good re-writing of history. How come none of us knew?

A question best directed to the editor of your favourite newspaper.

http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/04/14/ten-quotes-prove-corbyn-undoubtedly-eurosceptic/

[Norman Wells]

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal

Post by Yellow
So you are arguing here that Labour are committed to leaving the EU
while elsewhere you have argued that Mrs May, once she has her huge
majority, will turn round and tell us we are not going to leave after
all.

Labour are as committed to leaving the EU as Theresa May.

Yeah, yeah, course they are.

Post by The Todal
Her large majority after June will however enable her to reverse the
referendum decision without fear of any repercussions, if she decides to
do so.

The only repercussions would come from within her own party, as always
with the Tories as far as Europe is concerned, and at the next election
from the people.

As David Cameron recently pointed out, to her embarrassment, one purpose
of achieving a large majority would be to enable her to stand up to
those in her party who want an extreme Brexit.

No, that's re-writing what you've quoted, which said it would enable her to:

"stand up to people who want an extreme Brexit, either here or in Brussels".

If it meant 'those in her party' as you maintain, she would need a large
majority over the rest of her party not, as the general election will
provide, over the opposition in Parliament.

Post by The Todal
The only logical
interpretation of that is, she must be able to call off Brexit if the
only available deal is an "extreme" one which could damage Britain.

That's obvious. She's involved in a negotiation, and if you knew
anything at all about negotiation you'd know and agree exactly with what
she's been saying all along that 'no deal is better than a bad deal'.
That's so fundamental and obvious, I'm surprised that nice Mr Corbyn
hasn't been explaining it to you and other Labourites who are hard of
learning.

Post by The Todal
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/11/david-cameron-makes-campaign-comeback-hugs-pensioner/
At the next election, the people will continue to vote Tory if they are
Tory voters.

Post by Norman Wells
So, no repercussions to bother her at all then.

None whatsoever.

Then not only do you not understand negotiation but you don't understand
politics either.

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal
Not at all. To expect a deal that gives us free movement would be really
foolish, and Corbyn has stated openly that Brexit means the end of free
movement.

Yes, he's really, really good at stating the obvious, isn't he?

Unfortunately there seem to be many Brexiters who are so very, very dim
that it is necessary to keep stating the obvious to them.

He was addressing Labour supporters I think.

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal
You seem unduly suspicious that Corbyn would want to block Brexit. He
has been in favour of leaving the EU for many years.

That seems a good re-writing of history. How come none of us knew?

A question best directed to the editor of your favourite newspaper.
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/04/14/ten-quotes-prove-corbyn-undoubtedly-eurosceptic/

Sorry, saying some things that are a teensy bit critical of certain EU
policies does not amount to having 'been in favour of leaving the EU for
many years'. That's therefore just a lie.

I suppose you'll be telling us soon that he's always been in favour of
Trident too.

[Bod]

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal

Post by Yellow
So you are arguing here that Labour are committed to leaving the EU
while elsewhere you have argued that Mrs May, once she has her huge
majority, will turn round and tell us we are not going to leave after
all.

Labour are as committed to leaving the EU as Theresa May.

Yeah, yeah, course they are.

Post by The Todal
Her large majority after June will however enable her to reverse the
referendum decision without fear of any repercussions, if she decides to
do so.

The only repercussions would come from within her own party, as always
with the Tories as far as Europe is concerned, and at the next election
from the people.

As David Cameron recently pointed out, to her embarrassment, one purpose
of achieving a large majority would be to enable her to stand up to
those in her party who want an extreme Brexit.

"stand up to people who want an extreme Brexit, either here or in Brussels".
If it meant 'those in her party' as you maintain, she would need a large
majority over the rest of her party not, as the general election will
provide, over the opposition in Parliament.

Post by The Todal
The only logical
interpretation of that is, she must be able to call off Brexit if the
only available deal is an "extreme" one which could damage Britain.

That's obvious. She's involved in a negotiation, and if you knew
anything at all about negotiation you'd know and agree exactly with what
she's been saying all along that 'no deal is better than a bad deal'.
That's so fundamental and obvious, I'm surprised that nice Mr Corbyn
hasn't been explaining it to you and other Labourites who are hard of
learning.

Post by The Todal
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/11/david-cameron-makes-campaign-comeback-hugs-pensioner/
At the next election, the people will continue to vote Tory if they are
Tory voters.

Post by Norman Wells
So, no repercussions to bother her at all then.

None whatsoever.

Then not only do you not understand negotiation but you don't understand
politics either.

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal
Not at all. To expect a deal that gives us free movement would be really
foolish, and Corbyn has stated openly that Brexit means the end of free
movement.

Yes, he's really, really good at stating the obvious, isn't he?

Unfortunately there seem to be many Brexiters who are so very, very dim
that it is necessary to keep stating the obvious to them.

He was addressing Labour supporters I think.

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal
You seem unduly suspicious that Corbyn would want to block Brexit. He
has been in favour of leaving the EU for many years.

That seems a good re-writing of history. How come none of us knew?

A question best directed to the editor of your favourite newspaper.
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/04/14/ten-quotes-prove-corbyn-undoubtedly-eurosceptic/

Sorry, saying some things that are a teensy bit critical of certain EU
policies does not amount to having 'been in favour of leaving the EU for
many years'. That's therefore just a lie.
I suppose you'll be telling us soon that he's always been in favour of
Trident too.

Erm! *MPs at launch of Labour Leave campaign point to leader’s and
shadow chancellor’s long history of voting against European integration*

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jan/20/labour-eurosceptics-accuse-corbyn-reversing-position-eu-referendum

[Norman Wells]

Post by Bod

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal

Post by Yellow
So you are arguing here that Labour are committed to leaving the EU
while elsewhere you have argued that Mrs May, once she has her huge
majority, will turn round and tell us we are not going to leave after
all.

Labour are as committed to leaving the EU as Theresa May.

Yeah, yeah, course they are.

Post by The Todal
Her large majority after June will however enable her to reverse the
referendum decision without fear of any repercussions, if she decides to
do so.

The only repercussions would come from within her own party, as always
with the Tories as far as Europe is concerned, and at the next election
from the people.

As David Cameron recently pointed out, to her embarrassment, one purpose
of achieving a large majority would be to enable her to stand up to
those in her party who want an extreme Brexit.

"stand up to people who want an extreme Brexit, either here or in Brussels".
If it meant 'those in her party' as you maintain, she would need a large
majority over the rest of her party not, as the general election will
provide, over the opposition in Parliament.

Post by The Todal
The only logical
interpretation of that is, she must be able to call off Brexit if the
only available deal is an "extreme" one which could damage Britain.

That's obvious. She's involved in a negotiation, and if you knew
anything at all about negotiation you'd know and agree exactly with what
she's been saying all along that 'no deal is better than a bad deal'.
That's so fundamental and obvious, I'm surprised that nice Mr Corbyn
hasn't been explaining it to you and other Labourites who are hard of
learning.

Post by The Todal
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/11/david-cameron-makes-campaign-comeback-hugs-pensioner/
At the next election, the people will continue to vote Tory if they are
Tory voters.

Post by Norman Wells
So, no repercussions to bother her at all then.

None whatsoever.

Then not only do you not understand negotiation but you don't understand
politics either.

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal
Not at all. To expect a deal that gives us free movement would be really
foolish, and Corbyn has stated openly that Brexit means the end of free
movement.

Yes, he's really, really good at stating the obvious, isn't he?

Unfortunately there seem to be many Brexiters who are so very, very dim
that it is necessary to keep stating the obvious to them.

He was addressing Labour supporters I think.

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal
You seem unduly suspicious that Corbyn would want to block Brexit. He
has been in favour of leaving the EU for many years.

That seems a good re-writing of history. How come none of us knew?

A question best directed to the editor of your favourite newspaper.
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/04/14/ten-quotes-prove-corbyn-undoubtedly-eurosceptic/

Sorry, saying some things that are a teensy bit critical of certain EU
policies does not amount to having 'been in favour of leaving the EU for
many years'. That's therefore just a lie.
I suppose you'll be telling us soon that he's always been in favour of
Trident too.

Erm! *MPs at launch of Labour Leave campaign point to leader’s and
shadow chancellor’s long history of voting against European integration*
https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2016/jan/20/labour-eurosceptics-accuse-corbyn-reversing-position-eu-referendum

Votes in Parliament are not free votes. The opposition votes against
government motions as a matter of principle. It's the 'opposition'
after all.

What you need to go on is what he's said in the past when he was free to
speak his mind. But that's virtually nothing, and certainly does not
amount to being in favour of leaving. Indeed, if he had been he'd
surely have campaigned to leave, not campaigned to remain and got his
party to campaign to remain.

It's ludicrous to suggest he's always been in favour of leaving. He's
only in favour of leaving when he's not in favour of staying in, and
that we never know.

[abelard]

Post by Norman Wells
What you need to go on is what he's said in the past when he was free to
speak his mind. But that's virtually nothing, and certainly does not
amount to being in favour of leaving. Indeed, if he had been he'd
surely have campaigned to leave, not campaigned to remain and got his
party to campaign to remain.
It's ludicrous to suggest he's always been in favour of leaving. He's
only in favour of leaving when he's not in favour of staying in, and
that we never know.

he's in favour of jeremy and the cult...

look how forcefully he campaigned against leaving...
or was it for leaving?

sweet jeremy never stands in the open until he believes
that's the best seat in the house

[The Todal]

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal

Post by Yellow
So you are arguing here that Labour are committed to leaving the EU
while elsewhere you have argued that Mrs May, once she has her huge
majority, will turn round and tell us we are not going to leave after
all.

Labour are as committed to leaving the EU as Theresa May.

Yeah, yeah, course they are.

Post by The Todal
Her large majority after June will however enable her to reverse the
referendum decision without fear of any repercussions, if she decides to
do so.

The only repercussions would come from within her own party, as always
with the Tories as far as Europe is concerned, and at the next election
from the people.

As David Cameron recently pointed out, to her embarrassment, one purpose
of achieving a large majority would be to enable her to stand up to
those in her party who want an extreme Brexit.

"stand up to people who want an extreme Brexit, either here or in Brussels".
If it meant 'those in her party' as you maintain, she would need a large
majority over the rest of her party not, as the general election will
provide, over the opposition in Parliament.

She knows her Eurosceptics are few in number but try to exercise undue
influence, and she wants a large number of tame Tory backbenchers to
back her against her own Eurosceptics.

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal
The only logical
interpretation of that is, she must be able to call off Brexit if the
only available deal is an "extreme" one which could damage Britain.

That's obvious. She's involved in a negotiation, and if you knew
anything at all about negotiation you'd know and agree exactly with what
she's been saying all along that 'no deal is better than a bad deal'.
That's so fundamental and obvious, I'm surprised that nice Mr Corbyn
hasn't been explaining it to you and other Labourites who are hard of
learning.

No, you've misunderstood. No deal might be better than a bad deal but it
would still cause the British economy to plunge into recession and
inflation. I think if you really want to catch up you need to watch the
Andrew Marr show and Andrew Neil show more often.

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/11/david-cameron-makes-campaign-comeback-hugs-pensioner/
At the next election, the people will continue to vote Tory if they are
Tory voters.

Post by Norman Wells
So, no repercussions to bother her at all then.

None whatsoever.

Then not only do you not understand negotiation but you don't understand
politics either.

You're another dreamer who imagines thousands of voters on the streets
of Britain demanding a Brexit that will take away their jobs and public
services.

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal
Not at all. To expect a deal that gives us free movement would be really
foolish, and Corbyn has stated openly that Brexit means the end of free
movement.

Yes, he's really, really good at stating the obvious, isn't he?

Unfortunately there seem to be many Brexiters who are so very, very dim
that it is necessary to keep stating the obvious to them.

He was addressing Labour supporters I think.

He was addressing whichever journalist was interrogating him, I think.

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal
You seem unduly suspicious that Corbyn would want to block Brexit. He
has been in favour of leaving the EU for many years.

That seems a good re-writing of history. How come none of us knew?

A question best directed to the editor of your favourite newspaper.
http://www.breitbart.com/london/2016/04/14/ten-quotes-prove-corbyn-undoubtedly-eurosceptic/

Sorry, saying some things that are a teensy bit critical of certain EU
policies does not amount to having 'been in favour of leaving the EU for
many years'. That's therefore just a lie.
I suppose you'll be telling us soon that he's always been in favour of
Trident too.

You seem unable to understand the nuances of politics. You can only see
people who campaign for Britain to leave, and those who campaign for it
to stay.

[Norman Wells]

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal
Her large majority after June will however enable her to reverse the
referendum decision without fear of any repercussions, if she
decides to do so.

The only repercussions would come from within her own party, as always
with the Tories as far as Europe is concerned, and at the next election
from the people.

As David Cameron recently pointed out, to her embarrassment, one purpose
of achieving a large majority would be to enable her to stand up to
those in her party who want an extreme Brexit.

"stand up to people who want an extreme Brexit, either here or in Brussels".
If it meant 'those in her party' as you maintain, she would need a large
majority over the rest of her party not, as the general election will
provide, over the opposition in Parliament.

She knows her Eurosceptics are few in number but try to exercise undue
influence

Then we can add political history to the things you know nothing about.
There have always been huge rifts in the Tory Party over Europe, and
it's been the most divisive issue in it for decades. It was to put an
end to such divisions that Cameron decided on a referendum and embarked
on his fruitless tour of all the European capitals to seek reform.

There are many, many Eurosceptics in the Tory Party and they are still
there.

, and she wants a large number of tame Tory backbenchers to

Post by The Todal
back her against her own Eurosceptics.

You don't seem to understand. The general election won't achieve that
and isn't designed to. The number of Eurosceptic MPs may well increase
actually because they will support her policy on Brexit. She's no
longer batting against the Eurosceptics but for them.

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal
The only logical
interpretation of that is, she must be able to call off Brexit if the
only available deal is an "extreme" one which could damage Britain.

That's obvious. She's involved in a negotiation, and if you knew
anything at all about negotiation you'd know and agree exactly with what
she's been saying all along that 'no deal is better than a bad deal'.
That's so fundamental and obvious, I'm surprised that nice Mr Corbyn
hasn't been explaining it to you and other Labourites who are hard of
learning.

No, you've misunderstood. No deal might be better than a bad deal but it
would still cause the British economy to plunge into recession and
inflation.

So you say. But they're not the only alternatives.

Post by The Todal
I think if you really want to catch up you need to watch the
Andrew Marr show and Andrew Neil show more often.

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2017/05/11/david-cameron-makes-campaign-comeback-hugs-pensioner/
At the next election, the people will continue to vote Tory if they are
Tory voters.

Post by Norman Wells
So, no repercussions to bother her at all then.

None whatsoever.

Then not only do you not understand negotiation but you don't understand
politics either.

You're another dreamer who imagines thousands of voters on the streets
of Britain demanding a Brexit that will take away their jobs and public
services.

Well, we're having a general election in 4 weeks time, aren't we? We'll
see then what the voters on the streets of Britain want.

[The Todal]

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal
You're another dreamer who imagines thousands of voters on the streets
of Britain demanding a Brexit that will take away their jobs and public
services.

Well, we're having a general election in 4 weeks time, aren't we? We'll
see then what the voters on the streets of Britain want.

That's a remarkably daft observation. The voters on the streets of
Britain aren't choosing between Leave and Remain. In case you missed it,
the referendum was about a year ago.

Instead, the voters will be deciding which leader will achieve the best
Brexit deal and which will be the best guardian of the NHS, the
education system and workers rights.

Whatever the result of the general election it won't tell you whether
thousands (or millions) of voters prefer a Brexit with job losses and
inflation and recession to a change of mind and Britain remaining in the EU.

[Norman Wells]

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal
You're another dreamer who imagines thousands of voters on the streets
of Britain demanding a Brexit that will take away their jobs and public
services.

Well, we're having a general election in 4 weeks time, aren't we? We'll
see then what the voters on the streets of Britain want.

That's a remarkably daft observation. The voters on the streets of
Britain aren't choosing between Leave and Remain. In case you missed it,
the referendum was about a year ago.
Instead, the voters will be deciding which leader will achieve the best
Brexit deal and which will be the best guardian of the NHS, the
education system and workers rights.

I'm glad you recognise that.

Post by The Todal
Whatever the result of the general election it won't tell you whether
thousands (or millions) of voters prefer a Brexit with job losses and
inflation and recession to a change of mind and Britain remaining in the EU.

If only there was some effective opposition, eh?

[The Todal]

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal
You're another dreamer who imagines thousands of voters on the streets
of Britain demanding a Brexit that will take away their jobs and public
services.

Well, we're having a general election in 4 weeks time, aren't we? We'll
see then what the voters on the streets of Britain want.

That's a remarkably daft observation. The voters on the streets of
Britain aren't choosing between Leave and Remain. In case you missed it,
the referendum was about a year ago.
Instead, the voters will be deciding which leader will achieve the best
Brexit deal and which will be the best guardian of the NHS, the
education system and workers rights.

I'm glad you recognise that.

Post by The Todal
Whatever the result of the general election it won't tell you whether
thousands (or millions) of voters prefer a Brexit with job losses and
inflation and recession to a change of mind and Britain remaining in the EU.

If only there was some effective opposition, eh?

Again, I don't think you understand.

We won't know whether Brexit will involve job losses and inflation and
recession for a few years yet. We have to wait for the outcome of the
negotiations. There's little point in anyone pre-judging the outcome of
negotiations now.

If the negotiations go badly, I am confident that Theresa May will be an
effective opposition to Brexit, if a favourable outcome has proved
impossible despite the best efforts of her and her team.

[Yellow]

In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@icloud.com
says...

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal
You're another dreamer who imagines thousands of voters on the streets
of Britain demanding a Brexit that will take away their jobs and public
services.

Well, we're having a general election in 4 weeks time, aren't we? We'll
see then what the voters on the streets of Britain want.

That's a remarkably daft observation. The voters on the streets of
Britain aren't choosing between Leave and Remain. In case you missed it,
the referendum was about a year ago.
Instead, the voters will be deciding which leader will achieve the best
Brexit deal and which will be the best guardian of the NHS, the
education system and workers rights.

I'm glad you recognise that.

Post by The Todal
Whatever the result of the general election it won't tell you whether
thousands (or millions) of voters prefer a Brexit with job losses and
inflation and recession to a change of mind and Britain remaining in the EU.

If only there was some effective opposition, eh?

Again, I don't think you understand.
We won't know whether Brexit will involve job losses and inflation and
recession for a few years yet. We have to wait for the outcome of the
negotiations. There's little point in anyone pre-judging the outcome of
negotiations now.
If the negotiations go badly, I am confident that Theresa May will be an
effective opposition to Brexit, if a favourable outcome has proved
impossible despite the best efforts of her and her team.

Why are you confident of this?

[The Todal]

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal
You're another dreamer who imagines thousands of voters on the streets
of Britain demanding a Brexit that will take away their jobs and public
services.

Well, we're having a general election in 4 weeks time, aren't we? We'll
see then what the voters on the streets of Britain want.

That's a remarkably daft observation. The voters on the streets of
Britain aren't choosing between Leave and Remain. In case you missed it,
the referendum was about a year ago.
Instead, the voters will be deciding which leader will achieve the best
Brexit deal and which will be the best guardian of the NHS, the
education system and workers rights.

I'm glad you recognise that.

Post by The Todal
Whatever the result of the general election it won't tell you whether
thousands (or millions) of voters prefer a Brexit with job losses and
inflation and recession to a change of mind and Britain remaining in the EU.

If only there was some effective opposition, eh?

Again, I don't think you understand.
We won't know whether Brexit will involve job losses and inflation and
recession for a few years yet. We have to wait for the outcome of the
negotiations. There's little point in anyone pre-judging the outcome of
negotiations now.
If the negotiations go badly, I am confident that Theresa May will be an
effective opposition to Brexit, if a favourable outcome has proved
impossible despite the best efforts of her and her team.

Why are you confident of this?

Er, because she isn't an idiot? A grammar school education followed by
an Oxford degree must be proof that she's intelligent.

[Norman Wells]

Post by The Todal

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by The Todal
If the negotiations go badly, I am confident that Theresa May will be an
effective opposition to Brexit, if a favourable outcome has proved
impossible despite the best efforts of her and her team.

Why are you confident of this?

Er, because she isn't an idiot? A grammar school education followed by
an Oxford degree must be proof that she's intelligent.

Not necessarily.

Diane Abbott attended Harrow County Grammar School for Girls, and then
Newnham College, Cambridge, where she read history.

[The Todal]

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by The Todal
If the negotiations go badly, I am confident that Theresa May will be an
effective opposition to Brexit, if a favourable outcome has proved
impossible despite the best efforts of her and her team.

Why are you confident of this?

Er, because she isn't an idiot? A grammar school education followed by
an Oxford degree must be proof that she's intelligent.

Not necessarily.
Diane Abbott attended Harrow County Grammar School for Girls, and then
Newnham College, Cambridge, where she read history.

Both women have very poor communication skills. However, Theresa May has
a skilled team of advisers and spin-doctors.

[Norman Wells]

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by The Todal
If the negotiations go badly, I am confident that Theresa May will be an
effective opposition to Brexit, if a favourable outcome has proved
impossible despite the best efforts of her and her team.

Why are you confident of this?

Er, because she isn't an idiot? A grammar school education followed by
an Oxford degree must be proof that she's intelligent.

Not necessarily.
Diane Abbott attended Harrow County Grammar School for Girls, and then
Newnham College, Cambridge, where she read history.

Both women have very poor communication skills. However, Theresa May has
a skilled team of advisers and spin-doctors.

... and this little piggy had none.

[Vidcapper]

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by The Todal
If the negotiations go badly, I am confident that Theresa May will be an
effective opposition to Brexit, if a favourable outcome has proved
impossible despite the best efforts of her and her team.

Why are you confident of this?

Er, because she isn't an idiot? A grammar school education followed by
an Oxford degree must be proof that she's intelligent.

Not necessarily.
Diane Abbott attended Harrow County Grammar School for Girls, and then
Newnham College, Cambridge, where she read history.

But not Mathematics? :p

[Norman Wells]

Post by Vidcapper

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by The Todal
If the negotiations go badly, I am confident that Theresa May will be an
effective opposition to Brexit, if a favourable outcome has proved
impossible despite the best efforts of her and her team.

Why are you confident of this?

Er, because she isn't an idiot? A grammar school education followed by
an Oxford degree must be proof that she's intelligent.

Not necessarily.
Diane Abbott attended Harrow County Grammar School for Girls, and then
Newnham College, Cambridge, where she read history.

But not Mathematics? :p

The subject studied wasn't part of the equation* though.

* - a statement that the values of two mathematical expressions are
equal (indicated by the sign =)

Just thought I'd explain that for those who wouldn't understand it
otherwise.

Three pounds a month. Just three pounds a month will provide an
education for those like Diane who have trouble understanding numbers.
Text DUNCE to 65100 to stop the pratfalls and shocking embarrassment of
innumeracy. Your money will be well spent. Imagine a world where the
figures add up. For three pounds a month. Just three pounds a month.

[abelard]

Post by Norman Wells

Post by Vidcapper

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by The Todal
If the negotiations go badly, I am confident that Theresa May will be an
effective opposition to Brexit, if a favourable outcome has proved
impossible despite the best efforts of her and her team.

Why are you confident of this?

Er, because she isn't an idiot? A grammar school education followed by
an Oxford degree must be proof that she's intelligent.

Not necessarily.
Diane Abbott attended Harrow County Grammar School for Girls, and then
Newnham College, Cambridge, where she read history.

But not Mathematics? :p

The subject studied wasn't part of the equation* though.
* - a statement that the values of two mathematical expressions are
equal (indicated by the sign =)
Just thought I'd explain that for those who wouldn't understand it
otherwise.
Three pounds a month. Just three pounds a month will provide an
education for those like Diane who have trouble understanding numbers.
Text DUNCE to 65100 to stop the pratfalls and shocking embarrassment of
innumeracy. Your money will be well spent. Imagine a world where the
figures add up. For three pounds a month. Just three pounds a month.

government figures never add up...

they have to go through a middle woman in order to
extract value

[Yellow]

In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@icloud.com
says...

Post by The Todal

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal
You're another dreamer who imagines thousands of voters on the streets
of Britain demanding a Brexit that will take away their jobs and public
services.

Well, we're having a general election in 4 weeks time, aren't we? We'll
see then what the voters on the streets of Britain want.

That's a remarkably daft observation. The voters on the streets of
Britain aren't choosing between Leave and Remain. In case you missed it,
the referendum was about a year ago.
Instead, the voters will be deciding which leader will achieve the best
Brexit deal and which will be the best guardian of the NHS, the
education system and workers rights.

I'm glad you recognise that.

Post by The Todal
Whatever the result of the general election it won't tell you whether
thousands (or millions) of voters prefer a Brexit with job losses and
inflation and recession to a change of mind and Britain remaining in the EU.

If only there was some effective opposition, eh?

Again, I don't think you understand.
We won't know whether Brexit will involve job losses and inflation and
recession for a few years yet. We have to wait for the outcome of the
negotiations. There's little point in anyone pre-judging the outcome of
negotiations now.
If the negotiations go badly, I am confident that Theresa May will be an
effective opposition to Brexit, if a favourable outcome has proved
impossible despite the best efforts of her and her team.

Why are you confident of this?

Er, because she isn't an idiot? A grammar school education followed by
an Oxford degree must be proof that she's intelligent.

That is the best you can do?

[The Todal]

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by The Todal

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal
You're another dreamer who imagines thousands of voters on the streets
of Britain demanding a Brexit that will take away their jobs and public
services.

Well, we're having a general election in 4 weeks time, aren't we? We'll
see then what the voters on the streets of Britain want.

That's a remarkably daft observation. The voters on the streets of
Britain aren't choosing between Leave and Remain. In case you missed it,
the referendum was about a year ago.
Instead, the voters will be deciding which leader will achieve the best
Brexit deal and which will be the best guardian of the NHS, the
education system and workers rights.

I'm glad you recognise that.

Post by The Todal
Whatever the result of the general election it won't tell you whether
thousands (or millions) of voters prefer a Brexit with job losses and
inflation and recession to a change of mind and Britain remaining in the EU.

If only there was some effective opposition, eh?

Again, I don't think you understand.
We won't know whether Brexit will involve job losses and inflation and
recession for a few years yet. We have to wait for the outcome of the
negotiations. There's little point in anyone pre-judging the outcome of
negotiations now.
If the negotiations go badly, I am confident that Theresa May will be an
effective opposition to Brexit, if a favourable outcome has proved
impossible despite the best efforts of her and her team.

Why are you confident of this?

Er, because she isn't an idiot? A grammar school education followed by
an Oxford degree must be proof that she's intelligent.

That is the best you can do?

No, the best I could do would be a Labour government. Theresa May is
merely the best *you* can do.

[abelard]

Post by The Todal

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by The Todal

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal
You're another dreamer who imagines thousands of voters on the streets
of Britain demanding a Brexit that will take away their jobs and public
services.

Well, we're having a general election in 4 weeks time, aren't we? We'll
see then what the voters on the streets of Britain want.

That's a remarkably daft observation. The voters on the streets of
Britain aren't choosing between Leave and Remain. In case you missed it,
the referendum was about a year ago.
Instead, the voters will be deciding which leader will achieve the best
Brexit deal and which will be the best guardian of the NHS, the
education system and workers rights.

I'm glad you recognise that.

Post by The Todal
Whatever the result of the general election it won't tell you whether
thousands (or millions) of voters prefer a Brexit with job losses and
inflation and recession to a change of mind and Britain remaining in the EU.

If only there was some effective opposition, eh?

Again, I don't think you understand.
We won't know whether Brexit will involve job losses and inflation and
recession for a few years yet. We have to wait for the outcome of the
negotiations. There's little point in anyone pre-judging the outcome of
negotiations now.
If the negotiations go badly, I am confident that Theresa May will be an
effective opposition to Brexit, if a favourable outcome has proved
impossible despite the best efforts of her and her team.

Why are you confident of this?

Er, because she isn't an idiot? A grammar school education followed by
an Oxford degree must be proof that she's intelligent.

That is the best you can do?

No, the best I could do would be a Labour government. Theresa May is
merely the best *you* can do.

so mister toady is going on the children's crusade

how very aposite!

[Yellow]

In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@icloud.com
says...

Post by The Todal

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by The Todal

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal
You're another dreamer who imagines thousands of voters on the streets
of Britain demanding a Brexit that will take away their jobs and public
services.

Well, we're having a general election in 4 weeks time, aren't we? We'll
see then what the voters on the streets of Britain want.

That's a remarkably daft observation. The voters on the streets of
Britain aren't choosing between Leave and Remain. In case you missed it,
the referendum was about a year ago.
Instead, the voters will be deciding which leader will achieve the best
Brexit deal and which will be the best guardian of the NHS, the
education system and workers rights.

I'm glad you recognise that.

Post by The Todal
Whatever the result of the general election it won't tell you whether
thousands (or millions) of voters prefer a Brexit with job losses and
inflation and recession to a change of mind and Britain remaining in the EU.

If only there was some effective opposition, eh?

Again, I don't think you understand.
We won't know whether Brexit will involve job losses and inflation and
recession for a few years yet. We have to wait for the outcome of the
negotiations. There's little point in anyone pre-judging the outcome of
negotiations now.
If the negotiations go badly, I am confident that Theresa May will be an
effective opposition to Brexit, if a favourable outcome has proved
impossible despite the best efforts of her and her team.

Why are you confident of this?

Er, because she isn't an idiot? A grammar school education followed by
an Oxford degree must be proof that she's intelligent.

That is the best you can do?

No, the best I could do would be a Labour government. Theresa May is
merely the best *you* can do.

I want Brexit so there is only one show in town.

[Vidcapper]

Post by The Todal
We won't know whether Brexit will involve job losses and inflation and
recession for a few years yet. We have to wait for the outcome of the
negotiations. There's little point in anyone pre-judging the outcome of
negotiations now.
If the negotiations go badly, I am confident that Theresa May will be an
effective opposition to Brexit, if a favourable outcome has proved
impossible despite the best efforts of her and her team.

British politicians have *NO* mandate to block Brexit, whatever the
result of the GE!

[Ian Jackson]

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal
You're another dreamer who imagines thousands of voters on the streets
of Britain demanding a Brexit that will take away their jobs and public
services.

Well, we're having a general election in 4 weeks time, aren't we? We'll
see then what the voters on the streets of Britain want.

That's a remarkably daft observation. The voters on the streets of
Britain aren't choosing between Leave and Remain. In case you missed it,
the referendum was about a year ago.
Instead, the voters will be deciding which leader will achieve the best
Brexit deal and which will be the best guardian of the NHS, the
education system and workers rights.

I'm glad you recognise that.

Post by The Todal
Whatever the result of the general election it won't tell you whether
thousands (or millions) of voters prefer a Brexit with job losses and
inflation and recession to a change of mind and Britain remaining in the EU.

If only there was some effective opposition, eh?

Again, I don't think you understand.
We won't know whether Brexit will involve job losses and inflation and
recession for a few years yet. We have to wait for the outcome of the
negotiations. There's little point in anyone pre-judging the outcome of
negotiations now.

Well, we DO know that whatever deal we get with the EU, it won't be as
good as the one we already have. All we can hope for is that the deal(s)
we get with the rest of the world more than make up for what we lose.

Post by The Todal
If the negotiations go badly, I am confident that Theresa May will be
an effective opposition to Brexit, if a favourable outcome has proved
impossible despite the best efforts of her and her team.

Some of us more discerning people are coming round to the conclusion
that she is very adept at powerfully supporting or opposing any cause -
not out of deep conviction, but because it politically expedient to do
so. It is debatable whether this really makes her the UK's best
representative.

[James Harris]

Post by Ian Jackson

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal
You're another dreamer who imagines thousands of voters on the streets
of Britain demanding a Brexit that will take away their jobs and public
services.

Well, we're having a general election in 4 weeks time, aren't we?
We'll
see then what the voters on the streets of Britain want.

That's a remarkably daft observation. The voters on the streets of
Britain aren't choosing between Leave and Remain. In case you missed it,
the referendum was about a year ago.
Instead, the voters will be deciding which leader will achieve the best
Brexit deal and which will be the best guardian of the NHS, the
education system and workers rights.

I'm glad you recognise that.

Post by The Todal
Whatever the result of the general election it won't tell you whether
thousands (or millions) of voters prefer a Brexit with job losses and
inflation and recession to a change of mind and Britain remaining in
the
EU.

If only there was some effective opposition, eh?

Again, I don't think you understand.
We won't know whether Brexit will involve job losses and inflation and
recession for a few years yet. We have to wait for the outcome of the
negotiations. There's little point in anyone pre-judging the outcome
of negotiations now.

Well, we DO know that whatever deal we get with the EU, it won't be as
good as the one we already have. All we can hope for is that the deal(s)
we get with the rest of the world more than make up for what we lose.

IMO that's exactly right. The EU will insist that the final deal is
worse than membership. We and they will be diminished to some degree.
There will be a race to build international trade.

Two things about that, though. First, do you, Ian, as a Remainer, see
that the EU is making its stipulation in order to protect its union, not
to do what's best for its people or their prosperity? Can you see that
it is behaving as it always has and putting politics above economics and
that it is, therefore, good in the long term for our prosperity that we
are leaving?

Second, say that it takes four years from now to build equivalent trade
to make up for any EU trade we lose. Can you see that we don't need to
stop there? In the years after we have "broken even" we will be able to
continue to build global trade and overtake where we would have been if
we had remained in the EU. In other words, do you agree that Brexit
should make us better off in the long term?

Post by Ian Jackson

Post by The Todal
If the negotiations go badly, I am confident that Theresa May will be
an effective opposition to Brexit, if a favourable outcome has proved
impossible despite the best efforts of her and her team.

Some of us more discerning people are coming round to the conclusion
that she is very adept at powerfully supporting or opposing any cause -
not out of deep conviction, but because it politically expedient to do
so. It is debatable whether this really makes her the UK's best
representative.

The jury's out on May. But surely Corbyn is simply not up to the job!

[Ian Jackson]

Post by James Harris

Post by Ian Jackson

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal
You're another dreamer who imagines thousands of voters on the streets
of Britain demanding a Brexit that will take away their jobs and public
services.

Well, we're having a general election in 4 weeks time, aren't we?
We'll
see then what the voters on the streets of Britain want.

That's a remarkably daft observation. The voters on the streets of
Britain aren't choosing between Leave and Remain. In case you missed it,
the referendum was about a year ago.
Instead, the voters will be deciding which leader will achieve the best
Brexit deal and which will be the best guardian of the NHS, the
education system and workers rights.

I'm glad you recognise that.

Post by The Todal
Whatever the result of the general election it won't tell you whether
thousands (or millions) of voters prefer a Brexit with job losses and
inflation and recession to a change of mind and Britain remaining in
the
EU.

If only there was some effective opposition, eh?

Again, I don't think you understand.
We won't know whether Brexit will involve job losses and inflation and
recession for a few years yet. We have to wait for the outcome of the
negotiations. There's little point in anyone pre-judging the outcome
of negotiations now.

Well, we DO know that whatever deal we get with the EU, it won't be as
good as the one we already have. All we can hope for is that the deal(s)
we get with the rest of the world more than make up for what we lose.

IMO that's exactly right. The EU will insist that the final deal is
worse than membership. We and they will be diminished to some degree.
There will be a race to build international trade.
Two things about that, though. First, do you, Ian, as a Remainer, see
that the EU is making its stipulation in order to protect its union,
not to do what's best for its people or their prosperity?

Don't the two go hand-in-hand?

Post by James Harris
Can you see that it is behaving as it always has and putting politics
above economics and that it is, therefore, good in the long term for
our prosperity that we are leaving?

It's arguable that the EU has indeed deviated from / expanded beyond its
original raison d'être. However, the UK's aim should have been directed
towards reforming the system and the goals - even though this was
apparently like hitting our head against a soft brick wall. A referendum
to give the government the mandate for us to leave if we continued to
get nowhere might have been more effective - and might even have got a
more convincing majority. We could have had a strong ally in President
Marcon, as I believe he also wants EU reform.

Post by James Harris
Second, say that it takes four years from now to build equivalent trade
to make up for any EU trade we lose. Can you see that we don't need to
stop there? In the years after we have "broken even" we will be able to
continue to build global trade and overtake where we would have been if
we had remained in the EU. In other words, do you agree that Brexit
should make us better off in the long term?

I certainly don't want us to end up WORSE off - but my crystal ball is
too cloudy and my roulette wheel bearings are cracked.

Post by James Harris

Post by Ian Jackson

Post by The Todal
If the negotiations go badly, I am confident that Theresa May will be
an effective opposition to Brexit, if a favourable outcome has proved
impossible despite the best efforts of her and her team.

Some of us more discerning people are coming round to the conclusion
that she is very adept at powerfully supporting or opposing any cause -
not out of deep conviction, but because it politically expedient to do
so. It is debatable whether this really makes her the UK's best
representative.

The jury's out on May.

She's trying to out-Thatcher Thatcher.

Post by James Harris
But surely Corbyn is simply not up to the job!

Nevertheless, he's a real nice guy!

[abelard]

On Wed, 17 May 2017 11:03:38 +0100, Ian Jackson

Post by Ian Jackson

Post by James Harris
But surely Corbyn is simply not up to the job!

Nevertheless, he's a real nice guy!

they said that about adolf...and he loved children and dogs

he just knows what is best for everyone else...and by (not) god
he will make sure you have it...

[Yellow]

Post by Ian Jackson
It's arguable that the EU has indeed deviated from / expanded beyond its
original raison d'être.

"Arguable"? LOL!

Post by Ian Jackson
However, the UK's aim should have been directed
towards reforming the system and the goals - even though this was
apparently like hitting our head against a soft brick wall.

A soft brick wall? I like to see what you define as a hard brick wall.

Getting the UK vision of reform of the EU has not happened, is not
happening and will never happen.

Post by Ian Jackson
A referendum
to give the government the mandate for us to leave if we continued to
get nowhere might have been more effective - and might even have got a
more convincing majority.

But what would have been the point as reform of the EU to suit the UK is
not a realistic goal. And the public know that which is one of the
reason they voted to leave.

Post by Ian Jackson
We could have had a strong ally in President
Marcon, as I believe he also wants EU reform.

What would give Maroon more power, ability, to get the reforms that the
UK have failed to achieved?

Post by Ian Jackson

Post by James Harris
Second, say that it takes four years from now to build equivalent trade
to make up for any EU trade we lose. Can you see that we don't need to
stop there? In the years after we have "broken even" we will be able to
continue to build global trade and overtake where we would have been if
we had remained in the EU. In other words, do you agree that Brexit
should make us better off in the long term?

I certainly don't want us to end up WORSE off - but my crystal ball is
too cloudy and my roulette wheel bearings are cracked.

Define "WORSE" of. And "WORSE" for who? And what about those who it is
not "WORSE" for?

[abelard]

Post by Yellow

Post by Ian Jackson
We could have had a strong ally in President
Marcon, as I believe he also wants EU reform.

What would give Maroon more power, ability, to get the reforms that the
UK have failed to achieved?

fear

[Yellow]

In article <***@4ax.com>, abelard3
@abelard.org says...

Post by Yellow

Post by Ian Jackson
We could have had a strong ally in President
Marcon, as I believe he also wants EU reform.

What would give Maroon more power, ability, to get the reforms that the
UK have failed to achieved?

fear

of music?

[abelard]

Post by Yellow
@abelard.org says...

Post by Yellow

Post by Ian Jackson
We could have had a strong ally in President
Marcon, as I believe he also wants EU reform.

What would give Maroon more power, ability, to get the reforms that the
UK have failed to achieved?

fear

of music?

that france will get increasingly pissed with the eussr...
if macron does not refore the frogs faces the national
socialist of the fn...

they 'thought' they could stop the uk...the fact that
britain is showing it is not a bluff, is also working to
concentrate their 'minds'

[James Harris]

Post by Ian Jackson

Post by James Harris

Post by Ian Jackson

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal
You're another dreamer who imagines thousands of voters on the streets
of Britain demanding a Brexit that will take away their jobs and public
services.

Well, we're having a general election in 4 weeks time, aren't we?
We'll
see then what the voters on the streets of Britain want.

That's a remarkably daft observation. The voters on the streets of
Britain aren't choosing between Leave and Remain. In case you missed it,
the referendum was about a year ago.
Instead, the voters will be deciding which leader will achieve the best
Brexit deal and which will be the best guardian of the NHS, the
education system and workers rights.

I'm glad you recognise that.

Post by The Todal
Whatever the result of the general election it won't tell you whether
thousands (or millions) of voters prefer a Brexit with job losses and
inflation and recession to a change of mind and Britain remaining in
the
EU.

If only there was some effective opposition, eh?

Again, I don't think you understand.
We won't know whether Brexit will involve job losses and inflation and
recession for a few years yet. We have to wait for the outcome of the
negotiations. There's little point in anyone pre-judging the outcome
of negotiations now.

Well, we DO know that whatever deal we get with the EU, it won't be as
good as the one we already have. All we can hope for is that the deal(s)
we get with the rest of the world more than make up for what we lose.

IMO that's exactly right. The EU will insist that the final deal is
worse than membership. We and they will be diminished to some degree.
There will be a race to build international trade.
Two things about that, though. First, do you, Ian, as a Remainer, see
that the EU is making its stipulation in order to protect its union,
not to do what's best for its people or their prosperity?

Don't the two go hand-in-hand?

Is there any evidence that the EU has the right design? If not, surely
it has no justification in asserting that it must continue, especially
as it never puts its designs out for approval by the people of Europe.

Post by Ian Jackson

Post by James Harris
Can you see that it is behaving as it always has and putting politics
above economics and that it is, therefore, good in the long term for
our prosperity that we are leaving?

It's arguable that the EU has indeed deviated from / expanded beyond its
original raison d'être. However, the UK's aim should have been directed
towards reforming the system and the goals - even though this was
apparently like hitting our head against a soft brick wall.

For as long as I can remember the EU has pushed one way and the UK the
other. And we were often told "the UK will retain a veto". But over time
the UK has yielded more and more. And the supposedly precious vetoes
were given away. Things the UK gave away were, once given, gone for good.

Post by Ian Jackson
A referendum
to give the government the mandate for us to leave if we continued to
get nowhere might have been more effective - and might even have got a
more convincing majority. We could have had a strong ally in President
Marcon, as I believe he also wants EU reform.

Are Macron's reforms the kind that the UK would like? Aren't EU reforms
always for more and more integration, more and more central control?

ISTM the mindset is: Things are worse since we last centralised powers
but if we took _more_ power we could fix it. Hence they suck more and
more responsibility away from the member states.

Post by Ian Jackson

Post by James Harris
Second, say that it takes four years from now to build equivalent
trade to make up for any EU trade we lose. Can you see that we don't
need to stop there? In the years after we have "broken even" we will
be able to continue to build global trade and overtake where we would
have been if we had remained in the EU. In other words, do you agree
that Brexit should make us better off in the long term?

I certainly don't want us to end up WORSE off - but my crystal ball is
too cloudy and my roulette wheel bearings are cracked.

None of us knows the future. But if in N years we can build up what we
lose by leaving then after N years we should be "quids in" with any new
trade we set up.

[Handsome Jack]

Post by Ian Jackson

Post by James Harris
Two things about that, though. First, do you, Ian, as a Remainer, see
that the EU is making its stipulation in order to protect its union,
not to do what's best for its people or their prosperity?

Don't the two go hand-in-hand?

No, not unless you beg the question by assuming that the union is
automatically the best option for Europe's people. Which we Brexiters do
not of course accept.

Post by Ian Jackson

Post by James Harris
Can you see that it is behaving as it always has and putting politics
above economics and that it is, therefore, good in the long term for
our prosperity that we are leaving?

It's arguable that the EU has indeed deviated from / expanded beyond
its original raison d'être. However, the UK's aim should have been
directed towards reforming the system and the goals - even though this
was apparently like hitting our head against a soft brick wall. A
referendum to give the government the mandate for us to leave if we
continued to get nowhere might have been more effective - and might
even have got a more convincing majority.

Might have been, might have done ... Reform had been tried and hadn't
worked.

Moreover, a clear yes-no vote leaves no room for doubt. We're leaving.
The EU - either the Commission or the other member states - have had a
year to react. They could have said, Oh please don't leave, tell you
what, we'll pass an emergency directive revoking the right to free
movement of people, what about that eh? But they haven't. They aren't
going to change their spots.

[Yellow]

Post by Ian Jackson

Post by The Todal
We won't know whether Brexit will involve job losses and inflation and
recession for a few years yet. We have to wait for the outcome of the
negotiations. There's little point in anyone pre-judging the outcome of
negotiations now.

Well, we DO know that whatever deal we get with the EU, it won't be as
good as the one we already have.

Define "good". And "good" for who? What about those who it is not
"good" for?

Post by Ian Jackson
All we can hope for is that the deal(s)
we get with the rest of the world more than make up for what we lose.

Post by The Todal
If the negotiations go badly, I am confident that Theresa May will be
an effective opposition to Brexit, if a favourable outcome has proved
impossible despite the best efforts of her and her team.

Some of us more discerning people are coming round to the conclusion
that she is very adept at powerfully supporting or opposing any cause -
not out of deep conviction, but because it politically expedient to do
so. It is debatable whether this really makes her the UK's best
representative.

You would prefer Corbyn?

[Norman Wells]

Post by The Todal
Again, I don't think you understand.
We won't know whether Brexit will involve job losses and inflation and
recession for a few years yet. We have to wait for the outcome of the
negotiations. There's little point in anyone pre-judging the outcome of
negotiations now.
If the negotiations go badly, I am confident that Theresa May will be an
effective opposition to Brexit, if a favourable outcome has proved
impossible despite the best efforts of her and her team.

You seem to think that if the EU isn't prepared to negotiate a fair deal
our only course of action will be to crawl back under mummy's wing, say
sorry for making trouble, and ask to be forgiven. Can we come back in
please?

The truth is, if the EU isn't prepared to negotiate a fair deal, we'll
leave home and make our own independent way in the world, which we're
perfectly capable of doing. That's the real alternative.

[The Todal]

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal
Again, I don't think you understand.
We won't know whether Brexit will involve job losses and inflation and
recession for a few years yet. We have to wait for the outcome of the
negotiations. There's little point in anyone pre-judging the outcome of
negotiations now.
If the negotiations go badly, I am confident that Theresa May will be an
effective opposition to Brexit, if a favourable outcome has proved
impossible despite the best efforts of her and her team.

You seem to think that if the EU isn't prepared to negotiate a fair deal
our only course of action will be to crawl back under mummy's wing, say
sorry for making trouble, and ask to be forgiven. Can we come back in
please?
The truth is, if the EU isn't prepared to negotiate a fair deal, we'll
leave home and make our own independent way in the world, which we're
perfectly capable of doing. That's the real alternative.

Oh, definitely. Now, that's what I call pie in the sky economics. We can
do what used to work in the past. A thriving wool industry. Re-open the
Austin Morris car factories. Re-open the coal mines and sell our coal to
the rest of the world. If the financial hub of Europe is transferred
from London to Frankfurt, we'll try to win it back by bribes and
sweeteners. And Norman Wells, the greatest salesman in England, will be
out there with his suitcase drumming up new business and submitting
tenders.

It will all be fine.

[Norman Wells]

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal
Again, I don't think you understand.
We won't know whether Brexit will involve job losses and inflation and
recession for a few years yet. We have to wait for the outcome of the
negotiations. There's little point in anyone pre-judging the outcome of
negotiations now.
If the negotiations go badly, I am confident that Theresa May will be an
effective opposition to Brexit, if a favourable outcome has proved
impossible despite the best efforts of her and her team.

You seem to think that if the EU isn't prepared to negotiate a fair deal
our only course of action will be to crawl back under mummy's wing, say
sorry for making trouble, and ask to be forgiven. Can we come back in
please?
The truth is, if the EU isn't prepared to negotiate a fair deal, we'll
leave home and make our own independent way in the world, which we're
perfectly capable of doing. That's the real alternative.

Oh, definitely. Now, that's what I call pie in the sky economics. We can
do what used to work in the past. A thriving wool industry. Re-open the
Austin Morris car factories. Re-open the coal mines and sell our coal to
the rest of the world. If the financial hub of Europe is transferred
from London to Frankfurt, we'll try to win it back by bribes and
sweeteners. And Norman Wells, the greatest salesman in England, will be
out there with his suitcase drumming up new business and submitting
tenders.
It will all be fine.

Did you never leave home?

[abelard]

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal
Again, I don't think you understand.
We won't know whether Brexit will involve job losses and inflation and
recession for a few years yet. We have to wait for the outcome of the
negotiations. There's little point in anyone pre-judging the outcome of
negotiations now.
If the negotiations go badly, I am confident that Theresa May will be an
effective opposition to Brexit, if a favourable outcome has proved
impossible despite the best efforts of her and her team.

You seem to think that if the EU isn't prepared to negotiate a fair deal
our only course of action will be to crawl back under mummy's wing, say
sorry for making trouble, and ask to be forgiven. Can we come back in
please?
The truth is, if the EU isn't prepared to negotiate a fair deal, we'll
leave home and make our own independent way in the world, which we're
perfectly capable of doing. That's the real alternative.

Oh, definitely. Now, that's what I call pie in the sky economics. We can
do what used to work in the past. A thriving wool industry. Re-open the
Austin Morris car factories. Re-open the coal mines and sell our coal to
the rest of the world. If the financial hub of Europe is transferred
from London to Frankfurt, we'll try to win it back by bribes and
sweeteners. And Norman Wells, the greatest salesman in England, will be
out there with his suitcase drumming up new business and submitting
tenders.
It will all be fine.

Did you never leave home?

clearly she did not

[Vidcapper]

Post by The Todal

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal
You're another dreamer who imagines thousands of voters on the streets
of Britain demanding a Brexit that will take away their jobs and public
services.

Well, we're having a general election in 4 weeks time, aren't we? We'll
see then what the voters on the streets of Britain want.

That's a remarkably daft observation. The voters on the streets of
Britain aren't choosing between Leave and Remain. In case you missed it,
the referendum was about a year ago.
Instead, the voters will be deciding which leader will achieve the best
Brexit deal and which will be the best guardian of the NHS, the
education system and workers rights.

Generally speaking, GE's are won by the party who voters think will run
the economy better - and given the recently published Labour manifesto,
few people are going to think it's them!

Post by The Todal
Whatever the result of the general election it won't tell you whether
thousands (or millions) of voters prefer a Brexit with job losses and
inflation and recession

Can I borrow your crystal ball to pick some lottery numbers. 8)

[abelard]

Post by The Todal
No, you've misunderstood. No deal might

and you 'might' meet a tall dark stranger

Post by The Todal
be better than a bad deal but it
would still cause the British economy to plunge into recession

do you do tarot cards as well?

Post by The Todal
and
inflation. I think if you really want to catch up you need to watch the
Andrew Marr show and Andrew Neil show more often.

are they racing tipsters?

[Vidcapper]

Post by The Todal

Post by Yellow
So you are arguing here that Labour are committed to leaving the EU
while elsewhere you have argued that Mrs May, once she has her huge
majority, will turn round and tell us we are not going to leave after
all.

Labour are as committed to leaving the EU as Theresa May.
Her large majority after June will however enable her to reverse the
referendum decision without fear of any repercussions, if she decides to
do so.

That is absolutely *not* the case! She'd immediately lose all the
Eurosceptic Tories, and resuscitate UKIP.

[The Todal]

Post by Vidcapper

Post by The Todal

Post by Yellow
So you are arguing here that Labour are committed to leaving the EU
while elsewhere you have argued that Mrs May, once she has her huge
majority, will turn round and tell us we are not going to leave after
all.

Labour are as committed to leaving the EU as Theresa May.
Her large majority after June will however enable her to reverse the
referendum decision without fear of any repercussions, if she decides to
do so.

That is absolutely *not* the case! She'd immediately lose all the
Eurosceptic Tories, and resuscitate UKIP.

Nah. It's just a question of salesmanship, my boy. Theresa May, having
won the General Election, will have won the trust of the British people.
If she declares that we need to cancel Brexit the people will believe
her. Doctor May knows best.

It's true that UKIP would then be resuscitated. A gang of amateur
politicians who've never won a parliamentary seat will try to persuade
the British people that the UKIP economic experts are more trustworthy
than Doctor Theresa and her team of trusted experts.

[Norman Wells]

Post by The Todal

Post by Vidcapper

Post by The Todal

Post by Yellow
So you are arguing here that Labour are committed to leaving the EU
while elsewhere you have argued that Mrs May, once she has her huge
majority, will turn round and tell us we are not going to leave after
all.

Labour are as committed to leaving the EU as Theresa May.
Her large majority after June will however enable her to reverse the
referendum decision without fear of any repercussions, if she decides to
do so.

That is absolutely *not* the case! She'd immediately lose all the
Eurosceptic Tories, and resuscitate UKIP.

Nah. It's just a question of salesmanship, my boy. Theresa May, having
won the General Election, will have won the trust of the British people.
If she declares that we need to cancel Brexit the people will believe
her. Doctor May knows best.

Well, it's not going to happen, so we don't need to worry about it.

Post by The Todal
It's true that UKIP would then be resuscitated. A gang of amateur
politicians who've never won a parliamentary seat will try to persuade
the British people that the UKIP economic experts are more trustworthy
than Doctor Theresa and her team of trusted experts.

UKIP won't need experts any more or less than any other party of
unqualified politicians. That's what the Civil Service is for.

[abelard]

Post by Norman Wells

Post by The Todal

Post by Vidcapper

Post by The Todal

Post by Yellow
So you are arguing here that Labour are committed to leaving the EU
while elsewhere you have argued that Mrs May, once she has her huge
majority, will turn round and tell us we are not going to leave after
all.

Labour are as committed to leaving the EU as Theresa May.
Her large majority after June will however enable her to reverse the
referendum decision without fear of any repercussions, if she decides to
do so.

That is absolutely *not* the case! She'd immediately lose all the
Eurosceptic Tories, and resuscitate UKIP.

Nah. It's just a question of salesmanship, my boy. Theresa May, having
won the General Election, will have won the trust of the British people.
If she declares that we need to cancel Brexit the people will believe
her. Doctor May knows best.

Well, it's not going to happen, so we don't need to worry about it.

Post by The Todal
It's true that UKIP would then be resuscitated. A gang of amateur
politicians who've never won a parliamentary seat will try to persuade
the British people that the UKIP economic experts are more trustworthy
than Doctor Theresa and her team of trusted experts.

UKIP won't need experts any more or less than any other party of
unqualified politicians. That's what the Civil Service is for.

are you saying they have tea leaves which actually work?

[Joe]

On Tue, 16 May 2017 22:21:43 +0200

Post by abelard

Post by Norman Wells
UKIP won't need experts any more or less than any other party of
unqualified politicians. That's what the Civil Service is for.

are you saying they have tea leaves which actually work?

Not any more. They were once the archetypal 'professionals', but that
was long ago, when the slogan 'the man in Whitehall knows best'* could
be taken more or less seriously, and not simply seen as a poor joke.


*(yes, I know it's a misquote, but it took on a life of its own, like
many famous misquotes)

[Yellow]

In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@icloud.com
says...

Post by The Todal

Post by Yellow
says...

Post by The Todal

Post by Vidcapper
I wonder what MM will make of this...
Rise of the 'Re-Leavers' who voted AGAINST Brexit but now believe it
MUST happen and could propel May to massive majority on June 8

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-4506710/Rise-Leavers-voted-AGAINST-Brexit.html

I know some of you don't like the Mail, so here is the source survey...

https://yougov.co.uk/news/2017/05/12/forget-52-rise-re-leavers-mean-pro-brexit-electora/

But it's bollocks because it implies that only the Conservatives are
committed to Brexit and Labour is fishing in a smaller pond of
Remainers. That's obviously not true, because Labour has made it
perfectly clear that it is committed to leaving the EU. Demanding
scrutiny over the exit terms is only "remaining" if you are an imbecile,
such as the author of that article.

So you are arguing here that Labour are committed to leaving the EU
while elsewhere you have argued that Mrs May, once she has her huge
majority, will turn round and tell us we are not going to leave after
all.

Labour are as committed to leaving the EU as Theresa May.
Her large majority after June will however enable her to reverse the
referendum decision without fear of any repercussions, if she decides to
do so.

Without fear of repercussions? LOL! So you think the UK would just go
"OK then" and continue about its business as if the last couple of years
had not occurred?

Post by The Todal

Post by Yellow
And "demanding scrutiny" over the exit terms *is* remaining when your
yardstick for a good deal is that it must be exactly the same as what we
have now or the UK must negotiate in perpetuity, while remaining a
member.

Not at all. To expect a deal that gives us free movement would be really
foolish, and Corbyn has stated openly that Brexit means the end of free
movement.
You seem unduly suspicious that Corbyn would want to block Brexit. He
has been in favour of leaving the EU for many years.

I am duly suspicious of all politicians.

[abelard]

Post by Yellow

Post by The Todal
You seem unduly suspicious that Corbyn would want to block Brexit. He
has been in favour of leaving the EU for many years.

I am duly suspicious of all politicians.

that's because you ain't a block of wood!

[Ian Jackson]

In message <iZiSA.3$***@fx38.am4>, Vidcapper <***@yahoo.co.uk>
writes

Post by Vidcapper
I wonder what MM will make of this...
Rise of the 'Re-Leavers' who voted AGAINST Brexit but now believe it
MUST happen and could propel May to massive majority on June 8

Could it be that the turkeys who wisely voted against Christmas are now
agreeing to it - because they've been told it's actually going to be
great fun pulling the crackers?

[Mike Tomlinson]

Post by Vidcapper
I know some of you don't like the Mail

<https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/may/14/is-paul-dacre-most-
dangerous-man-in-britain-daily-mail>

or http://tinyurl.com/mul42ks

[harry]

Post by Mike Tomlinson

Post by Vidcapper
I know some of you don't like the Mail

<https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/may/14/is-paul-dacre-most-
dangerous-man-in-britain-daily-mail>
or http://tinyurl.com/mul42ks

The Mail has the largest circulation in the UK.

The Guardian is a lefty failure.
No wonder as it's filled with drivel.

[Nick]

Post by Mike Tomlinson

Post by Vidcapper
I know some of you don't like the Mail

<https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/may/14/is-paul-dacre-most-
dangerous-man-in-britain-daily-mail>

Why do you break up url's?

<https://www.theguardian.com/media/2017/may/14/is-paul-dacre-most-dangerous-man-in-britain-daily-mail>

Is it because wrapping is good usenet etiquette, for some reason? A bit like snipping?

[Mike Tomlinson]

Post by Nick
Why do you break up url's?

I don't, it's your newsreader. Use a better one.

[burfordTjustice]

On Tue, 16 May 2017 02:35:59 +0100
Mike Tomlinson <

Post by Mike Tomlinson
tinyurl.com

Tracking scum...do they pau you???????