The Karajan Sound

[m***@gmail.com]

I heard him with the BPO and the Vienna Phil at Carnegie Hall. I would agree
that his "sound" was never adequately captured on disc. While the recordings
often lead to comments like "shrill," "homogenous" and "mushy," his live
performances were anything but that. In the concert hall, one was struck by the
fact that he achieved an incredibly full sound without ever lapsing into the
banal. There was no "highlighting" of inner voices, so to speak, because
everything was wonderfully in balance so inner voices were heard without
needing to be underlined.
The times I heard him in concert, the interpretation was wonderful even if the
brass sections of these respected fine orchestras served up their share of
clams (something one would almost never expect or accept from American
players). In addition, the wind players weren't submerged in a wall of string
sound as can often happen on disc.
That said, the EMI recordings probably do fuller justice to HvK's sound
concept. I'd recommend the Pelleas et Melisande...

Karajan's PELLEAS... is on Youtube.

[Frank Berger]

Post by m***@gmail.com

I heard him with the BPO and the Vienna Phil at Carnegie Hall. I would agree
that his "sound" was never adequately captured on disc. While the recordings
often lead to comments like "shrill," "homogenous" and "mushy," his live
performances were anything but that. In the concert hall, one was struck by the
fact that he achieved an incredibly full sound without ever lapsing into the
banal. There was no "highlighting" of inner voices, so to speak, because
everything was wonderfully in balance so inner voices were heard without
needing to be underlined.
The times I heard him in concert, the interpretation was wonderful even if the
brass sections of these respected fine orchestras served up their share of
clams (something one would almost never expect or accept from American
players). In addition, the wind players weren't submerged in a wall of string
sound as can often happen on disc.
That said, the EMI recordings probably do fuller justice to HvK's sound
concept. I'd recommend the Pelleas et Melisande...

Karajan's PELLEAS... is on Youtube.

This time the post you responded to was from 2002. While, there's no
law against it, do you really think it's a good idea to respond to
long-dead threads? In view of the comments already made here? Why not
start paying attention to the dates?

[Frank Berger]

Post by Frank Berger

Post by m***@gmail.com

I heard him with the BPO and the Vienna Phil at Carnegie Hall. I would agree
that his "sound" was never adequately captured on disc. While the recordings
often lead to comments like "shrill," "homogenous" and "mushy," his live
performances were anything but that. In the concert hall, one was struck by the
fact that he achieved an incredibly full sound without ever lapsing into the
banal. There was no "highlighting" of inner voices, so to speak, because
everything was wonderfully in balance so inner voices were heard without
needing to be underlined.
The times I heard him in concert, the interpretation was wonderful even if the
brass sections of these respected fine orchestras served up their share of
clams (something one would almost never expect or accept from American
players). In addition, the wind players weren't submerged in a wall of string
sound as can often happen on disc.
That said, the EMI recordings probably do fuller justice to HvK's sound
concept. I'd recommend the Pelleas et Melisande...

Karajan's PELLEAS... is on Youtube.

This time the post you responded to was from 2002. While, there's no
law against it, do you really think it's a good idea to respond to
long-dead threads? In view of the comments already made here? Why not
start paying attention to the dates?

He's not responding to the previous post, rather just letting us know an
HvK Pelleas is available on YouTube.

By responding to an old post, like I said. He could as easily have
created a new post.

[Gerard]

Post by Frank Berger

Post by m***@gmail.com

I heard him with the BPO and the Vienna Phil at Carnegie Hall. I would agree
that his "sound" was never adequately captured on disc. While the recordings
often lead to comments like "shrill," "homogenous" and "mushy," his live
performances were anything but that. In the concert hall, one was struck by the
fact that he achieved an incredibly full sound without ever lapsing into the
banal. There was no "highlighting" of inner voices, so to speak, because
everything was wonderfully in balance so inner voices were heard without
needing to be underlined.
The times I heard him in concert, the interpretation was wonderful even if the
brass sections of these respected fine orchestras served up their share of
clams (something one would almost never expect or accept from American
players). In addition, the wind players weren't submerged in a wall of string
sound as can often happen on disc.
That said, the EMI recordings probably do fuller justice to HvK's sound
concept. I'd recommend the Pelleas et Melisande...

Karajan's PELLEAS... is on Youtube.

This time the post you responded to was from 2002. While, there's no
law against it, do you really think it's a good idea to respond to
long-dead threads? In view of the comments already made here? Why not
start paying attention to the dates?

He's not responding to the previous post, rather just letting us know an
HvK Pelleas is available on YouTube.

By responding to an old post, like I said. He could as easily have
created a new post.

==============

Maybe it is not a good idea to create a new post for everything that can be
found on YouTube.
(Unless a new newsgroup is created as well: rec.music.classical.youtube.)

[Frank Berger]

Post by Frank Berger

Post by Frank Berger

Post by m***@gmail.com

I heard him with the BPO and the Vienna Phil at Carnegie Hall. I would agree
that his "sound" was never adequately captured on disc. While the recordings
often lead to comments like "shrill," "homogenous" and "mushy," his live
performances were anything but that. In the concert hall, one was struck by the
fact that he achieved an incredibly full sound without ever lapsing into the
banal. There was no "highlighting" of inner voices, so to speak, because
everything was wonderfully in balance so inner voices were heard without
needing to be underlined.
The times I heard him in concert, the interpretation was wonderful even if the
brass sections of these respected fine orchestras served up their share of
clams (something one would almost never expect or accept from American
players). In addition, the wind players weren't submerged in a wall of string
sound as can often happen on disc.
That said, the EMI recordings probably do fuller justice to HvK's sound
concept. I'd recommend the Pelleas et Melisande...

Karajan's PELLEAS... is on Youtube.

This time the post you responded to was from 2002. While, there's no
law against it, do you really think it's a good idea to respond to
long-dead threads? In view of the comments already made here? Why not
start paying attention to the dates?

He's not responding to the previous post, rather just letting us know an
HvK Pelleas is available on YouTube.

By responding to an old post, like I said. He could as easily have
created a new post.
==============
Maybe it is not a good idea to create a new post for everything that can
be found on YouTube.
(Unless a new newsgroup is created as well: rec.music.classical.youtube.)

As is often the case, Gerard, you made a true statement. True, but of
absolutely no value.

[Gerard]

Post by Frank Berger

Post by Frank Berger

Post by m***@gmail.com

I heard him with the BPO and the Vienna Phil at Carnegie Hall. I would agree
that his "sound" was never adequately captured on disc. While the recordings
often lead to comments like "shrill," "homogenous" and "mushy," his live
performances were anything but that. In the concert hall, one was struck by the
fact that he achieved an incredibly full sound without ever lapsing into the
banal. There was no "highlighting" of inner voices, so to speak, because
everything was wonderfully in balance so inner voices were heard without
needing to be underlined.
The times I heard him in concert, the interpretation was wonderful even if the
brass sections of these respected fine orchestras served up their share of
clams (something one would almost never expect or accept from American
players). In addition, the wind players weren't submerged in a wall of string
sound as can often happen on disc.
That said, the EMI recordings probably do fuller justice to HvK's sound
concept. I'd recommend the Pelleas et Melisande...

Karajan's PELLEAS... is on Youtube.

This time the post you responded to was from 2002. While, there's no
law against it, do you really think it's a good idea to respond to
long-dead threads? In view of the comments already made here? Why not
start paying attention to the dates?

He's not responding to the previous post, rather just letting us know an
HvK Pelleas is available on YouTube.

By responding to an old post, like I said. He could as easily have
created a new post.
==============
Maybe it is not a good idea to create a new post for everything that can
be found on YouTube.
(Unless a new newsgroup is created as well: rec.music.classical.youtube.)

As is often the case, Gerard, you made a true statement. True, but of
absolutely no value.

=========

Do we need anything of value, while we have your splendid posts here?

[Frank Berger]

Post by Frank Berger

Post by Frank Berger

Post by Frank Berger

Post by m***@gmail.com

I heard him with the BPO and the Vienna Phil at Carnegie Hall. I would agree
that his "sound" was never adequately captured on disc. While the recordings
often lead to comments like "shrill," "homogenous" and "mushy," his live
performances were anything but that. In the concert hall, one was struck by the
fact that he achieved an incredibly full sound without ever lapsing into the
banal. There was no "highlighting" of inner voices, so to speak, because
everything was wonderfully in balance so inner voices were heard without
needing to be underlined.
The times I heard him in concert, the interpretation was wonderful even if the
brass sections of these respected fine orchestras served up their share of
clams (something one would almost never expect or accept from American
players). In addition, the wind players weren't submerged in a wall of string
sound as can often happen on disc.
That said, the EMI recordings probably do fuller justice to HvK's sound
concept. I'd recommend the Pelleas et Melisande...

Karajan's PELLEAS... is on Youtube.

This time the post you responded to was from 2002. While, there's no
law against it, do you really think it's a good idea to respond to
long-dead threads? In view of the comments already made here? Why not
start paying attention to the dates?

He's not responding to the previous post, rather just letting us know an
HvK Pelleas is available on YouTube.

By responding to an old post, like I said. He could as easily have
created a new post.
==============
Maybe it is not a good idea to create a new post for everything that can
be found on YouTube.
(Unless a new newsgroup is created as well: rec.music.classical.youtube.)

As is often the case, Gerard, you made a true statement. True, but of
absolutely no value.
=========
Do we need anything of value, while we have your splendid posts here?

I don't know. What do you think?

[r***@gmail.com]

Post by Frank Berger

Post by Frank Berger

Post by Frank Berger

Post by Frank Berger

Post by m***@gmail.com

I heard him with the BPO and the Vienna Phil at Carnegie Hall. I
would agree
that his "sound" was never adequately captured on disc. While the
recordings
often lead to comments like "shrill," "homogenous" and "mushy," his
live
performances were anything but that. In the concert hall, one was
struck by the
fact that he achieved an incredibly full sound without ever lapsing
into the
banal. There was no "highlighting" of inner voices, so to speak,
because
everything was wonderfully in balance so inner voices were heard
without
needing to be underlined.
The times I heard him in concert, the interpretation was wonderful
even if the
brass sections of these respected fine orchestras served up their
share of
clams (something one would almost never expect or accept from
American
players). In addition, the wind players weren't submerged in a wall
of string
sound as can often happen on disc.
That said, the EMI recordings probably do fuller justice to HvK's
sound
concept. I'd recommend the Pelleas et Melisande...

Karajan's PELLEAS... is on Youtube.

This time the post you responded to was from 2002. While, there's no
law against it, do you really think it's a good idea to respond to
long-dead threads? In view of the comments already made here? Why not
start paying attention to the dates?

He's not responding to the previous post, rather just letting us know an
HvK Pelleas is available on YouTube.

By responding to an old post, like I said. He could as easily have
created a new post.
==============
Maybe it is not a good idea to create a new post for everything that can
be found on YouTube.
(Unless a new newsgroup is created as well: rec.music.classical.youtube.)

As is often the case, Gerard, you made a true statement. True, but of
absolutely no value.
=========
Do we need anything of value, while we have your splendid posts here?

I don't know. What do you think?

I suspect that I already have been, given the quality of some reissues.

[RVG]

Post by Frank Berger

Post by Frank Berger

Post by m***@gmail.com
Karajan's PELLEAS... is on Youtube.

This time the post you responded to was from 2002. While,
there's no law against it, do you really think it's a good idea
to respond to long-dead threads? In view of the comments already
made here? Why not start paying attention to the dates?

He's not responding to the previous post, rather just letting us
know an HvK Pelleas is available on YouTube.

By responding to an old post, like I said. He could as easily have
created a new post.
==============
Maybe it is not a good idea to create a new post for everything that
rec.music.classical.youtube.)

Do you know that Youtube automatically filters out frequencies higher
than 16kHz ?
Although most people older than 45 may not hear this spectrum of high
frequencies, they're part of the harmonic palette of resonances expected
from Hi-Fi recordings, so I think that Youtube deliberately downgrades
the audio quality on their videos to that people won't make hifi quality
copies of them and be tempted to sell them.

For example the spectrograph of Foobar2000 displays frequencies up to
22kHz, which is the frequency of a dog-whistle that kids up to 10yo can
also hear.

[Norman Schwartz]

Post by RVG

Post by Frank Berger

Post by Frank Berger

Post by m***@gmail.com
Karajan's PELLEAS... is on Youtube.

This time the post you responded to was from 2002. While,
there's no law against it, do you really think it's a good idea
to respond to long-dead threads? In view of the comments already
made here? Why not start paying attention to the dates?

He's not responding to the previous post, rather just letting us
know an HvK Pelleas is available on YouTube.

By responding to an old post, like I said. He could as easily have
created a new post.
==============
Maybe it is not a good idea to create a new post for everything that
rec.music.classical.youtube.)

Do you know that Youtube automatically filters out frequencies higher
than 16kHz ?
Although most people older than 45 may not hear this spectrum of high
frequencies, they're part of the harmonic palette of resonances
expected from Hi-Fi recordings

And the loudspeakers most often used for listening to Youtube audio are
capable of reproducing frequencies higher (and lower) than ?

so I think that Youtube deliberately

Post by RVG
downgrades the audio quality on their videos to that people won't
make hifi quality copies of them and be tempted to sell them.
For example the spectrograph of Foobar2000 displays frequencies up to
22kHz, which is the frequency of a dog-whistle that kids up to 10yo
can also hear.

[RVG]

Post by Norman Schwartz

Post by RVG

Post by Frank Berger

Post by Frank Berger

Post by m***@gmail.com
Karajan's PELLEAS... is on Youtube.

This time the post you responded to was from 2002. While,
there's no law against it, do you really think it's a good idea
to respond to long-dead threads? In view of the comments already
made here? Why not start paying attention to the dates?

He's not responding to the previous post, rather just letting us
know an HvK Pelleas is available on YouTube.

By responding to an old post, like I said. He could as easily have
created a new post.
==============
Maybe it is not a good idea to create a new post for everything that
rec.music.classical.youtube.)

Do you know that Youtube automatically filters out frequencies higher
than 16kHz ?
Although most people older than 45 may not hear this spectrum of high
frequencies, they're part of the harmonic palette of resonances
expected from Hi-Fi recordings

And the loudspeakers most often used for listening to Youtube audio are
capable of reproducing frequencies higher (and lower) than ?

I use my headphones, or I plug my PC on the TV + Hifi amp through HDMI.

Post by Norman Schwartz
so I think that Youtube deliberately

Post by RVG
downgrades the audio quality on their videos to that people won't
make hifi quality copies of them and be tempted to sell them.
For example the spectrograph of Foobar2000 displays frequencies up to
22kHz, which is the frequency of a dog-whistle that kids up to 10yo
can also hear.

[Norman Schwartz]

Post by RVG

Post by Norman Schwartz

Post by RVG

Post by Frank Berger

Post by Frank Berger

Post by m***@gmail.com
Karajan's PELLEAS... is on Youtube.

This time the post you responded to was from 2002. While,
there's no law against it, do you really think it's a good idea
to respond to long-dead threads? In view of the comments already
made here? Why not start paying attention to the dates?

He's not responding to the previous post, rather just letting us
know an HvK Pelleas is available on YouTube.

By responding to an old post, like I said. He could as easily have
created a new post.
==============
Maybe it is not a good idea to create a new post for everything
that can be found on YouTube. (Unless a new newsgroup is created
as well: rec.music.classical.youtube.)

Do you know that Youtube automatically filters out frequencies
higher than 16kHz ?
Although most people older than 45 may not hear this spectrum of
high frequencies, they're part of the harmonic palette of resonances
expected from Hi-Fi recordings

And the loudspeakers most often used for listening to Youtube audio
are capable of reproducing frequencies higher (and lower) than ?

I use my headphones, or I plug my PC on the TV + Hifi amp through HDMI.

I can also use headphones, and listen/watch YouTube through an Oppo BDP-93
and my main audio system, etc.
Do you see many people sitting around using their Stax
earspeakers/amplifiers listening to YouTube?
(IAE personally speaking, at my age and hearing ability the entire
proposition is moot.)

Post by RVG

Post by Norman Schwartz
so I think that Youtube deliberately

Post by RVG
downgrades the audio quality on their videos to that people won't
make hifi quality copies of them and be tempted to sell them.

I can't imagine (m)any customers for copies of YouTube downloads. :-)

Post by RVG

Post by Norman Schwartz

Post by RVG
For example the spectrograph of Foobar2000 displays frequencies up
to 22kHz, which is the frequency of a dog-whistle that kids up to
10yo can also hear.

[r***@gmail.com]

Post by RVG

Post by Frank Berger

Post by Frank Berger

Post by m***@gmail.com
Karajan's PELLEAS... is on Youtube.

This time the post you responded to was from 2002. While,
there's no law against it, do you really think it's a good idea
to respond to long-dead threads? In view of the comments already
made here? Why not start paying attention to the dates?

He's not responding to the previous post, rather just letting us
know an HvK Pelleas is available on YouTube.

By responding to an old post, like I said. He could as easily have
created a new post.
==============
Maybe it is not a good idea to create a new post for everything that
rec.music.classical.youtube.)

Do you know that Youtube automatically filters out frequencies higher
than 16kHz ?
Although most people older than 45 may not hear this spectrum of high
frequencies, they're part of the harmonic palette of resonances expected
from Hi-Fi recordings, so I think that Youtube deliberately downgrades
the audio quality on their videos to that people won't make hifi quality
copies of them and be tempted to sell them.
For example the spectrograph of Foobar2000 displays frequencies up to
22kHz, which is the frequency of a dog-whistle that kids up to 10yo can
also hear.
--
"Shut your eyes and see."
James Joyce, Ulysses
http://jamen.do/l/a122797
http://jamen.do/l/a122027
http://bluedusk.blogspot.fr/
http://soundcloud.com/rvgronoff

I did not know this. However, it means that it offers somewhat greater frequency range than VHF/FM broadcasts, which have been of more than good enough quality since I first began listening to BBC Radio 3 (the Third Programme when I started). In a nutshell- no problem. It is also, of course, much better than LPs played with the once-universal crystal cartridges.
Richard

[RVG]

Post by r***@gmail.com

Post by RVG

Post by Frank Berger

Post by Frank Berger

Post by m***@gmail.com
Karajan's PELLEAS... is on Youtube.

This time the post you responded to was from 2002. While,
there's no law against it, do you really think it's a good
idea
to respond to long-dead threads? In view of the comments
already
made here? Why not start paying attention to the dates?

He's not responding to the previous post, rather just letting us
know an HvK Pelleas is available on YouTube.

By responding to an old post, like I said. He could as easily have
created a new post.
==============
Maybe it is not a good idea to create a new post for everything that
rec.music.classical.youtube.)

Do you know that Youtube automatically filters out frequencies higher
than 16kHz ?
Although most people older than 45 may not hear this spectrum of high
frequencies, they're part of the harmonic palette of resonances expected
from Hi-Fi recordings, so I think that Youtube deliberately
downgrades
the audio quality on their videos to that people won't make hifi quality
copies of them and be tempted to sell them.

I did not know this. However, it means that it offers somewhat
greater frequency range than VHF/FM broadcasts, which have been of
more than good enough quality since I first began listening to BBC
Radio 3 (the Third Programme when I started). In a nutshell- no
problem. It is also, of course, much better than LPs played with
the once-universal crystal cartridges. Richard

I've a hyper-sensitive hearing (I can still hear mosquitoes flying at
1m50 from me and pinpoint them - the higher the sound, the easier to
localize). I sleep with earplugs of course and I live in a very quiet
one-way street opposite a clinic so there are no klaxons, not even loud
"music" on any local festival or Christmas time - just the occasional
poor kid crying while having his/her tooth removed or fixed by the
dentist when the window's open on hot days.

I can still hear the E 22.1kHz and I'm 48yo. :)
It was much worse when I was young, that's probably why I enjoyed so
much those long walks in the woods of Normandy, alone with a book and a
sandwich. I would spend hours listening to the harmonies "sung" by the
grasshoppers.

[g***@gmail.com]

I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
nineteen sixties.
People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
understood.

According to this book on Furtwangler:

- Many have since pursued beauty of tone virtually as an end in itself, but no conductor in the 20th century made more of a fetish of it than Herbert von Karajan.

http://books.google.com/books?id=eX2FMBU9420C&pg=PA486&dq=%22Many+have+since+pursued+beauty+of+tone+virtually+as+an+end+in+itself,+but+no+conductor+in+the+20th+century+made+more+of+a+fetish+of+it+than+Herbert+von+Karajan.%22&hl=en&sa=X&ei=KEsdVNb1B9XtoASQkoKwAw&ved=0CCgQ6AEwAA#v=onepage&q=%22Many%20have%20since%20pursued%20beauty%20of%20tone%20virtually%20as%20an%20end%20in%20itself%2C%20but%20no%20conductor%20in%20the%2020th%20century%20made%20more%20of%20a%20fetish%20of%20it%20than%20Herbert%20von%20Karajan.%22&f=false

[g***@gmail.com]

I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
nineteen sixties.
People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
understood.

Would you call the Karajan sound VELVETY? (recent article):

http://www.vulture.com/2014/10/berlin-philharmonics-retro-reinvention.html

[Norman Schwartz]

Post by g***@gmail.com

I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a
performance that best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have
here, as an example that does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG
Originals. Even though there is a lot of energy in the playing that
you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I hear a hard,
"plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments,
even though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche
Grammophon of the nineteen sixties.
People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of
remembering a very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that
the engineer has preserved on this recording. So I am curious
whether any of the hundreds of HvK recordings, on DG and EMI, can
offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and sounds as the so
called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
understood.

http://www.vulture.com/2014/10/berlin-philharmonics-retro-reinvention.html

Ever expecting sound of even the best recording heard via loudspeakers in
one's listening room, or through the very best headphones, to match that
heard in a concert hall is simply a lost cause (regardless of what anyone
says to the contrary).

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by Norman Schwartz
Ever expecting sound of even the best recording heard via
loudspeakers in one's listening room, or through the very best
headphones, to match that heard in a concert hall is simply
a lost cause (regardless of what anyone says to the contrary).

I say so, to the contrary. It's possible to closely approach the live
experience. Acoustically, anyway.

[Norman Schwartz]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by Norman Schwartz
Ever expecting sound of even the best recording heard via
loudspeakers in one's listening room, or through the very best
headphones, to match that heard in a concert hall is simply
a lost cause (regardless of what anyone says to the contrary).

I say so, to the contrary. It's possible to closely approach the live
experience. Acoustically, anyway.

So seated blindfolded, (if all other considerations were properly taken care
of like people kicking the back of your chair and pushing your arms off of
armrests :-) ), if you believe live sound can't very easily be distinguised
from a recording (even when having access to the best equipment, recordings,
listening room/environment, etc. available 'under the sun', then I'm truly
at a loss for words (which of its self might be a good thing).

[Ray Hall]

Post by Norman Schwartz

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by Norman Schwartz
Ever expecting sound of even the best recording heard via
loudspeakers in one's listening room, or through the very best
headphones, to match that heard in a concert hall is simply
a lost cause (regardless of what anyone says to the contrary).

I say so, to the contrary. It's possible to closely approach the live
experience. Acoustically, anyway.

So seated blindfolded, (if all other considerations were properly taken care
of like people kicking the back of your chair and pushing your arms off of
armrests :-) ), if you believe live sound can't very easily be distinguised
from a recording (even when having access to the best equipment, recordings,
listening room/environment, etc. available 'under the sun', then I'm truly
at a loss for words (which of its self might be a good thing).

Notice that William said 'closely approach' acoustically. There will be
many interpretations of how close is close, all of them part
subjectively based.

I've given up the chase, given that I'm not Rupert Murdoch, and neither
do I wish to be.

Ray Hall, Taree

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by Norman Schwartz

Post by Norman Schwartz

Post by Norman Schwartz
Ever expecting sound of even the best recording heard via
loudspeakers in one's listening room, or through the very best
headphones, to match that heard in a concert hall is simply

a lost cause (regardless of what anyone says to the contrary).
I say so, to the contrary. It's possible to closely approach the live
experience. Acoustically, anyway.

So seated blindfolded, (if all other considerations were properly taken care
of like people kicking the back of your chair and pushing your arms off of
armrests :-) ), if you believe live sound can't very easily be distinguised
from a recording (even when having access to the best equipment, recordings,
listening room/environment, etc. available 'under the sun', then I'm truly
at a loss for words (which of its self might be a good thing).

I said "closely approach" -- not "exactly duplicate".

If you've never heard such playback -- either from your own recordings, or
commercial disks -- you're not in a position to pass judgment on whether such
a thing is possible.

[Norman Schwartz]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by Norman Schwartz

Post by Norman Schwartz

Post by Norman Schwartz
Ever expecting sound of even the best recording heard via
loudspeakers in one's listening room, or through the very best
headphones, to match that heard in a concert hall is simply

a lost cause (regardless of what anyone says to the contrary).
I say so, to the contrary. It's possible to closely approach the
live experience. Acoustically, anyway.

So seated blindfolded, (if all other considerations were properly
taken care of like people kicking the back of your chair and pushing
your arms off of armrests :-) ), if you believe live sound can't
very easily be distinguised from a recording (even when having
access to the best equipment, recordings, listening
room/environment, etc. available 'under the sun', then I'm truly at
a loss for words (which of its self might be a good thing).

I said "closely approach" -- not "exactly duplicate".
If you've never heard such playback -- either from your own
recordings, or commercial disks -- you're not in a position to pass
judgment on whether such a thing is possible.

Oh I know, I must first listen to *your* particular system using your
recordings and disks to compare the results experienced at my partcicular
seating locations in the venues I attended. Then and only then, will I be
capable of passing judgment. (My judgment is no better nor worse than is
yours. Both are limited by our own particular experiences and hearing
capabilities within various times of our lives.)

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by Norman Schwartz
Oh I know, I must first listen to *your* particular system using
your recordings and disks to compare the results experienced
at my partcicular seating locations in the venues I attended.
Then and only then, will I be capable of passing judgment.
(My judgment is no better nor worse than is yours. Both are
limited by our own particular experiences and hearing
capabilities within various times of our lives.)

My judgment //is// better, if only because I've experiences that make it
possible to make a better judgment.

Your statement that a close approximation to live sound is impossible is based
on... nothing. Have you ever made live recordings (especially Ambisonic)?

[Norman Schwartz]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by Norman Schwartz
Oh I know, I must first listen to *your* particular system using
your recordings and disks to compare the results experienced
at my partcicular seating locations in the venues I attended.
Then and only then, will I be capable of passing judgment.
(My judgment is no better nor worse than is yours. Both are
limited by our own particular experiences and hearing
capabilities within various times of our lives.)

My judgment //is// better, if only because I've experiences that make
it possible to make a better judgment.
Your statement that a close approximation to live sound is impossible
is based on... nothing. Have you ever made live recordings
(especially Ambisonic)?

But I've often attended and had subscriptions to hear live music; Avery
Fisher Hall, Merkin Hall, NY State Theater, Carnegie Hall, the Metropolitan
Opera House plus others BUT admittedly I do not listen to music at home
sitting in the center of a soundfield having MUSIC fired at me from the
front and rear/sides. The latter doesn't conform to any live music
experience, (unless of course musicians/vocalists were placed at those
positions within the theater), so it automatically disqualifies itself.

[MiNe109]

Post by Norman Schwartz

Post by William Sommerwerck
My judgment //is// better, if only because I've experiences that
make it possible to make a better judgment.
Your statement that a close approximation to live sound is
impossible is based on... nothing. Have you ever made live
recordings (especially Ambisonic)?

But I've often attended and had subscriptions to hear live music;
Avery Fisher Hall, Merkin Hall, NY State Theater, Carnegie Hall, the
Metropolitan Opera House plus others BUT admittedly I do not listen
to music at home sitting in the center of a soundfield having MUSIC
fired at me from the front and rear/sides. The latter doesn't conform
to any live music experience, (unless of course musicians/vocalists
were placed at those positions within the theater), so it
automatically disqualifies itself.

If you were at a live event, MUSIC *was* fired at you from all
directions. (Outdoor concerts excepted.)

Purist recordings have ambient sound in the surround channels, yielding
an immersive soundfield at playback.

Stephen

[Herman]

Post by William Sommerwerck
My judgment //is// better, if only because I've experiences that make it
possible to make a better judgment.
Your statement that a close approximation to live sound is impossible is based
on... nothing. Have you ever made live recordings (especially Ambisonic)?

this so stuck record.

[Norman Schwartz]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by Norman Schwartz

Post by Norman Schwartz

Post by Norman Schwartz
Ever expecting sound of even the best recording heard via
loudspeakers in one's listening room, or through the very best
headphones, to match that heard in a concert hall is simply

a lost cause (regardless of what anyone says to the contrary).
I say so, to the contrary. It's possible to closely approach the
live experience. Acoustically, anyway.

So seated blindfolded, (if all other considerations were properly
taken care of like people kicking the back of your chair and pushing
your arms off of armrests :-) ), if you believe live sound can't
very easily be distinguised from a recording (even when having
access to the best equipment, recordings, listening
room/environment, etc. available 'under the sun', then I'm truly at
a loss for words (which of its self might be a good thing).

I said "closely approach" -- not "exactly duplicate".

One can also "closely approach" Mount Everest and not set a single inch upon
it, which is what I believe have done.

Post by William Sommerwerck
If you've never heard such playback -- either from your own
recordings, or commercial disks -- you're not in a position to pass
judgment on whether such a thing is possible.

[Herman]

Post by William Sommerwerck
I say so, to the contrary. It's possible to closely approach the live
experience. Acoustically, anyway.

didn't you say you had not been at a symphony concert for forty years? That would kind of qualify your statement.

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by William Sommerwerck
I say so, to the contrary. It's possible to closely approach the live
experience. Acoustically, anyway.

Didn't you say you had not been at a symphony concert for forty years?
That would kind of qualify your statement.

The last live music I attended was in 2001. But I won't dispute the point.

[John Wiser]

Post by Norman Schwartz
Ever expecting sound of even the best recording heard via
loudspeakers in one's listening room, or through the very best
headphones, to match that heard in a concert hall is simply
a lost cause (regardless of what anyone says to the contrary).

I say so, to the contrary. It's possible to closely approach the live experience. Acoustically,
anyway.

That is a commonly held fond delusion.

jdw

[William Sommerwerck]

Post by John Wiser

Post by William Sommerwerck
I say so, to the contrary. It's possible to closely approach the live
experience. Acoustically, anyway.

That is a commonly held fond delusion.

It's objective fact. But, then, it's easy to dismiss something you haven't
experienced.

[Frank Berger]

Post by William Sommerwerck

Post by John Wiser

Post by William Sommerwerck
I say so, to the contrary. It's possible to closely approach the live
experience. Acoustically, anyway.

That is a commonly held fond delusion.

It's objective fact. But, then, it's easy to dismiss something you
haven't experienced.

A. Because you think you have experienced something doesn't make it true.

B. IF you do think you have experienced it, and tell us so, that is
opinion, not fact.

C. To be fact, it must be demonstrable. Perhaps it is. But then some
machine will show an identity of sound and still people will claim to
hear differences.

Does it really matter anyway? Perhaps a somewhat inferior reproduced
sound, sans coughing, is preferable.



---
This email is free from viruses and malware because avast! Antivirus protection is active.
http://www.avast.com

[g***@gmail.com]

I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
nineteen sixties.
People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
understood.

According to the following recent article:

- Maybe it's The Karajan Effect, whereby everything ends up sounding congealed, or homogenised, or Something Bent To Karajan's Will.

https://petersplanets.wordpress.com/2015/01/01/karajan-1981/

[g***@gmail.com]

Von Karajan reminds me of Mantavoni. He likes to wallow in the sound. He is
like a fog creeping in.
Lenny

According to the following recent article:

- Maybe it's The Karajan Effect, whereby everything ends up sounding congealed, or homogenised, or Something Bent To Karajan's Will.

https://petersplanets.wordpress.com/2015/01/01/karajan-1981/

[g***@gmail.com]

I heard him with the BPO and the Vienna Phil at Carnegie Hall. I would agree
that his "sound" was never adequately captured on disc. While the recordings
often lead to comments like "shrill," "homogenous" and "mushy,"...

According to the following recent article:

- Maybe it's The Karajan Effect, whereby everything ends up sounding congealed, or homogenised, or Something Bent To Karajan's Will.

https://petersplanets.wordpress.com/2015/01/01/karajan-1981/

[Willem Orange]

Post by g***@gmail.com

I heard him with the BPO and the Vienna Phil at Carnegie Hall. I would agree
that his "sound" was never adequately captured on disc. While the recordings
often lead to comments like "shrill," "homogenous" and "mushy,"...

- Maybe it's The Karajan Effect, whereby everything ends up sounding congealed, or homogenised, or Something Bent To Karajan's Will.
https://petersplanets.wordpress.com/2015/01/01/karajan-1981/

So what???????

[g***@gmail.com]

I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
nineteen sixties.
People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
understood.

According to this recent article:

- Simon Rattle, for one, has talked about how he was "slightly repelled" by the Karajan sound when he heard it in the flesh for the first time, and he's just one conductor who feels that Karajan - "the emperor of legato" - belongs to a musical world that has no place in today's orchestral culture.

http://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2014/dec/04/herbert-von-karajan-film-john-bridcut-controversy-continues

[Herman]

On Tuesday, August 18, 2015 at 12:31:35 PM UTC+2, ***@gmail.com wrote:

why don't don't try to listen to music sometimes instead of trolling the internet looking for silly quotes about music?

[g***@gmail.com]

Post by g***@gmail.com

I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
nineteen sixties.
People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
understood.

- Simon Rattle, for one, has talked about how he was "slightly repelled" by the Karajan sound when he heard it in the flesh for the first time, and he's just one conductor who feels that Karajan - "the emperor of legato" - belongs to a musical world that has no place in today's orchestral culture.
http://www.theguardian.com/music/tomserviceblog/2014/dec/04/herbert-von-karajan-film-john-bridcut-controversy-continues

"Simon Rattle on Herbert von Karajan" (2014) is on Youtube.

[g***@gmail.com]

Von Karajan reminds me of Mantavoni. He likes to wallow in the sound. He is
like a fog creeping in.
Lenny
".com> wrote in message

I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance

that

best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example

that

does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is

a lot

of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening

fanfares, I

hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to

it. It

sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of

the

nineteen sixties.
People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of

remembering a

very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds

of HvK

recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than

"adequate" and

sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that

can be

understood.

Concerning Karajan's 1963 recording of RITE OF S., the composer said:

- ("tempo di hoochie-coochie"); its velvet languor of pace and texture and virtual absence of incisive accents doesn't merely challenge the work's essential spirit but attempts to obliterate it.

http://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-rite-stuff

[g***@gmail.com]

Von Karajan reminds me of Mantavoni. He likes to wallow in the sound. He is
like a fog creeping in.
Lenny

Concerning Karajan's 1963 recording of RITE OF S., the composer said:

- ...("tempo di hoochie-coochie"); its velvet languor of pace and texture and virtual absence of incisive accents doesn't merely challenge the work's essential spirit but attempts to obliterate it...

http://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-rite-stuff

[g***@gmail.com]

Von Karajan reminds me of Mantavoni. He likes to wallow in the sound. He is
like a fog creeping in.
Lenny

Concerning Karajan's 1963 recording of RITE OF S., the composer said:

- ...("tempo di hoochie-coochie"); its velvet languor of pace and texture and virtual absence of incisive accents doesn't merely challenge the work's essential spirit but attempts to obliterate it.

http://www.newyorker.com/culture/culture-desk/the-rite-stuff

[g***@gmail.com]

I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
nineteen sixties.
People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
understood.

Could this apply to Karajan?:

- The forceps of our minds are clumsy forceps, and crush the truth a little in taking hold of it.

H. G. Wells (1903)

[Willem Orange]

Post by g***@gmail.com

I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
nineteen sixties.
People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
understood.

- The forceps of our minds are clumsy forceps, and crush the truth a little in taking hold of it.
H. G. Wells (1903)

No

[Frank Berger]

Post by g***@gmail.com

I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
nineteen sixties.
People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
understood.

- The forceps of our minds are clumsy forceps, and crush the truth a little in taking hold of it.
H. G. Wells (1903)

No

Did the OP get any good replies when he asked the question
in 2002?

[O]

Post by Frank Berger

Post by g***@gmail.com

I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
nineteen sixties.
People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
understood.

- The forceps of our minds are clumsy forceps, and crush the truth a
little in taking hold of it.
H. G. Wells (1903)

No

Did the OP get any good replies when he asked the question
in 2002?

No, and he attempted to squeeze Karajan's head with forceps, shouting
"The Shape of Things To Come!" and leading to an unexpected time travel
incident.

-Owen, I'll never forget Weena.

[Frank Berger]

Post by O

Post by Frank Berger

Post by g***@gmail.com

I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
nineteen sixties.
People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
understood.

- The forceps of our minds are clumsy forceps, and crush the truth a
little in taking hold of it.
H. G. Wells (1903)

No

Did the OP get any good replies when he asked the question
in 2002?

No, and he attempted to squeeze Karajan's head with forceps, shouting
"The Shape of Things To Come!" and leading to an unexpected time travel
incident.
-Owen, I'll never forget Weena.

LOL. "The Shape of Things to Come" is a phrase more worthy
of Wells' talent than the "clumsy" one about forceps.

[g***@gmail.com]

I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
nineteen sixties.
People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
understood.

According to the following recent article:

- ...[Karajan's] technical precision can be thrilling, but his aloof objectivity drains music of its essential humanity.

http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics5/italian.html

[Bob Harper]

Post by g***@gmail.com

I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a
performance that best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I
have here, as an example that does not please me, the "Pagliacci"
of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot of energy in the
playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I hear a
hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to
it. It sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy
instruments, even though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by
Deutsche Grammophon of the nineteen sixties.
People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of
remembering a very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear
that the engineer has preserved on this recording. So I am curious
whether any of the hundreds of HvK recordings, on DG and EMI, can
offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and sounds as the so
called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
understood.

- ...[Karajan's] technical precision can be thrilling, but his aloof
objectivity drains music of its essential humanity.
http://www.classicalnotes.net/classics5/italian.html

Where, oh where, is Michael Schaffer when we need him?

Bob Harper

[Lionel Tacchini]

Post by Bob Harper
Where, oh where, is Michael Schaffer when we need him?

Hiding on Facebook.

[Gerard]

"Bob Harper" wrote in message news:PFFiz.11274$***@fx43.iad...

Where, oh where, is Michael Schaffer when we need him?
=================

Do we need him?
When?

[Herman]

Post by Bob Harper
Where, oh where, is Michael Schaffer when we need him?
=================
Do we need him?
When?

He knew more of how orchestras work and sound than anybody else post 2000 on RMCR.

So yeah, it's too bad he ain't around.

[Gerard]

Post by Bob Harper
Where, oh where, is Michael Schaffer when we need him?
=================
Do we need him?
When?

He knew more of how orchestras work and sound than anybody else post 2000 on
RMCR.

=================

Do you mean Henry Fogel?
(Who's contributions more were a pleasure to read.)

[Bob Harper]

Post by Herman

Post by Bob Harper
Where, oh where, is Michael Schaffer when we need him?
=================
Do we need him?
When?

He knew more of how orchestras work and sound than anybody else post 2000 on RMCR.
=================
Do you mean Henry Fogel?
(Who's contributions more were a pleasure to read.)

Granted, Henry was a gentleman, Michael was not. But Herman's right
about his knowledge, and he had an especial regard for Karajan, so one
imagines there'd have been an explosion in response to this overstatement.

Bob Harper

[Herman]

Post by Bob Harper

Post by Herman

Post by Bob Harper
Where, oh where, is Michael Schaffer when we need him?
=================
Do we need him?
When?

He knew more of how orchestras work and sound than anybody else post 2000 on RMCR.
=================
Do you mean Henry Fogel?
(Who's contributions more were a pleasure to read.)

Granted, Henry was a gentleman, Michael was not. But Herman's right
about his knowledge, and he had an especial regard for Karajan, so one
imagines there'd have been an explosion in response to this overstatement.
Bob Harper

glad we agree about that.

as long as it wasn't about America vs Yurp Michael was a valuable poster.

[Al Eisner]

Post by Herman

Post by Bob Harper
Where, oh where, is Michael Schaffer when we need him?
=================
Do we need him?
When?

He knew more of how orchestras work and sound than anybody else post 2000 on RMCR.

I think that's an overstatement. In particular, in his long (and often
fascinating) dialogs with Jeff, I felt Jeff most often came out ahead.

Post by Herman
So yeah, it's too bad he ain't around.

It could be interesting, at least until he starts dishing out abusive
put-downs again....

[Bob Harper]

Post by Al Eisner

Post by Herman

Post by Bob Harper
Where, oh where, is Michael Schaffer when we need him?
=================
Do we need him?
When?

He knew more of how orchestras work and sound than anybody else post 2000 on RMCR.

I think that's an overstatement. In particular, in his long (and often
fascinating) dialogs with Jeff, I felt Jeff most often came out ahead.

Post by Herman
So yeah, it's too bad he ain't around.

It could be interesting, at least until he starts dishing out abusive
put-downs again....

Maybe he's matured :)

Bob Harper

[g***@gmail.com]

I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
nineteen sixties.
People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
understood.

According to this 2014 article:

- But he was accused of building his success on performances that were too perfect – manicured, clinical, shallow: all that glittered could not be gold, we said.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/music/classicalmusic/11274309/Karajan-the-conductor-who-lived-in-the-fast-lane.html

[g***@gmail.com]

I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
nineteen sixties.
People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
understood.

According to the following:

- To my ears, Karajan's records and live performances often seem contrived, like furniture expertly joined and polished.

https://books.google.com/books?id=5swP8NCjpRsC&pg=PA97&dq=%22to+my+ears,+karajan%27s+records%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwinoqyxorHSAhXqxFQKHQDDCOoQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=%22to%20my%20ears%2C%20karajan's%20records%22&f=false

[Raymond Hall]

Post by g***@gmail.com

I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
nineteen sixties.
People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
understood.

- To my ears, Karajan's records and live performances often seem contrived, like furniture expertly joined and polished.
https://books.google.com/books?id=5swP8NCjpRsC&pg=PA97&dq=%22to+my+ears,+karajan%27s+records%22&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwinoqyxorHSAhXqxFQKHQDDCOoQ6AEIHDAA#v=onepage&q=%22to%20my%20ears%2C%20karajan's%20records%22&f=false

Someone not so long ago in this forum, suggested that HvK's sound was fine when listened to on a portable radio while preparing something in the kitchen. His musical vision, in my opinion, was excellent, but he buried it in a thick sludge aided and abetted by the BPO and DG.

Ray Hall, Taree

[Gerard]

Post by Raymond Hall
Someone not so long ago in this forum, suggested that HvK's sound was fine when listened to on a portable radio while preparing something in the kitchen. His musical vision, in my opinion, was excellent, but he buried it in a thick sludge aided and abetted by the BPO and DG.
Ray Hall, Taree

Maybe you're referring to a post of mine.
The story I've heard however was that Karajan's recording team (Karajan and his technical staff, engineers included) had the 'philosophy' that his (Karajan's) recordings should have to sound good on a kitchen table portable radio. And that was the sound they delivered.

Nevertheless ... some of his recordings do sound somewhat better than that (by mistake?)

[g***@gmail.com]

Post by Gerard

Post by Raymond Hall
Someone not so long ago in this forum, suggested that HvK's sound was fine when listened to on a portable radio while preparing something in the kitchen. His musical vision, in my opinion, was excellent, but he buried it in a thick sludge aided and abetted by the BPO and DG.
Ray Hall, Taree

Maybe you're referring to a post of mine.
The story I've heard however was that Karajan's recording team (Karajan and his technical staff, engineers included) had the 'philosophy' that his (Karajan's) recordings should have to sound good on a kitchen table portable radio. And that was the sound they delivered...

The following may be of interest:

- “[It is] nothing more than a sophisticated way of bringing higher fi to record buyers who don’t care enough about hi-fi to invest in a decent playback system.”

http://www.tronola.com/html/dynagroove.html

[g***@gmail.com]

Post by g***@gmail.com

Post by Gerard

Post by Raymond Hall
Someone not so long ago in this forum, suggested that HvK's sound was fine when listened to on a portable radio while preparing something in the kitchen. His musical vision, in my opinion, was excellent, but he buried it in a thick sludge aided and abetted by the BPO and DG.
Ray Hall, Taree

Maybe you're referring to a post of mine.
The story I've heard however was that Karajan's recording team (Karajan and his technical staff, engineers included) had the 'philosophy' that his (Karajan's) recordings should have to sound good on a kitchen table portable radio. And that was the sound they delivered...

- “[It is] nothing more than a sophisticated way of bringing higher fi to record buyers who don’t care enough about hi-fi to invest in a decent playback system.”
http://www.tronola.com/html/dynagroove.html

According to the following:

- Holt, a noted audio engineer and writer of the 1960s and 1970s, slammed Dynagroove as introducing "pre-distortion" into the mastering process, making the records sound worse if they were played on high-quality phono systems.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dynagroove

[Terry]

Post by Gerard

Post by Raymond Hall
Someone not so long ago in this forum, suggested that HvK's sound was fine when listened to on a portable radio while preparing something in the kitchen. His musical vision, in my opinion, was excellent, but he buried it in a thick sludge aided and abetted by the BPO and DG.
Ray Hall, Taree

Maybe you're referring to a post of mine.
The story I've heard however was that Karajan's recording team (Karajan and his technical staff, engineers included) had the 'philosophy' that his (Karajan's) recordings should have to sound good on a kitchen table portable radio. And that was the sound they delivered.
Nevertheless ... some of his recordings do sound somewhat better than that (by mistake?)

I've always owned good sound equipment, and have seldom if ever had any beef with HvK/DGG recordings. Obviously I haven't heard every one, but I own quite a few. I have observed that the severest criticisms seem to come from people who don't get into concert halls all that often. To me, Karajan is the conductor whose great gift to orchestral playing was to get the woodwind to play properly in tune with one another!

[Herman]

Post by Terry
To me, Karajan is the conductor whose great gift to orchestral playing was to get the woodwind to play properly in tune with one another!

You mean, that never happened before?

[Terry]

Post by Herman

Post by Terry
To me, Karajan is the conductor whose great gift to orchestral playing was to get the woodwind to play properly in tune with one another!

You mean, that never happened before?

Yep.

[Herman]

Post by Herman

Post by Terry
To me, Karajan is the conductor whose great gift to orchestral playing was to get the woodwind to play properly in tune with one another!

You mean, that never happened before?

Yep.

Well, I guess that makes sense. RMCR also hosts people who claim they have yet to hear a recording with a piano that is not out of tune.

[Terry]

Post by Herman

Post by Herman

Post by Terry
To me, Karajan is the conductor whose great gift to orchestral playing was to get the woodwind to play properly in tune with one another!

You mean, that never happened before?

Yep.

Well, I guess that makes sense. RMCR also hosts people who claim they have yet to hear a recording with a piano that is not out of tune.

It's all to do with temperament.

[j***@gmail.com]

Post by Terry
It's all to do with temperament.

Of the listener or the instrument?

[AB]

Post by Herman

Post by Herman

Post by Terry
To me, Karajan is the conductor whose great gift to orchestral playing was to get the woodwind to play properly in tune with one another!

You mean, that never happened before?

Yep.

Well, I guess that makes sense. RMCR also hosts people who claim they have yet to hear a recording with a piano that is not out of tune.

Herman,
would you please name one of these awful people:-))) Their comments destroy the serenity of RMCR!

AB

[O]

Post by AB

Post by Herman

Post by Herman

Post by Terry
To me, Karajan is the conductor whose great gift to orchestral
playing was to get the woodwind to play properly in tune with one
another!

You mean, that never happened before?

Yep.

Well, I guess that makes sense. RMCR also hosts people who claim they have
yet to hear a recording with a piano that is not out of tune.

Herman,
would you please name one of these awful people:-))) Their comments destroy the serenity of RMCR!

We are sworn to secrecy. Mum's the word! I've got a Secret!

-Owen, "Lettuce leave, Celery?"

[m***@gmail.com]

Post by Terry
I've always owned good sound equipment, and have seldom if ever had any beef with HvK/DGG recordings. Obviously I haven't heard every one, but I own quite a few. I have observed that the severest criticisms seem to come from people who don't get into concert halls all that often. To me, Karajan is the conductor whose great gift to orchestral playing was to get the woodwind to play properly in tune with one another!

Was listening to Minkowski's "march to the scaffold" the other day and I suddenly recalled my bafflement at Karajan's 60's recording of the same movement where the clarinet solo sounds so sour- one of the worst I've heard.

[AB]

Post by m***@gmail.com

Post by Terry
I've always owned good sound equipment, and have seldom if ever had any beef with HvK/DGG recordings. Obviously I haven't heard every one, but I own quite a few. I have observed that the severest criticisms seem to come from people who don't get into concert halls all that often. To me, Karajan is the conductor whose great gift to orchestral playing was to get the woodwind to play properly in tune with one another!

Was listening to Minkowski's "march to the scaffold" the other day and I suddenly recalled my bafflement at Karajan's 60's recording of the same movement where the clarinet solo sounds so sour- one of the worst I've heard.

by the 1960s all the woodwinds in the top orchestras were playing in tune.

AB

[m***@gmail.com]

Post by AB
by the 1960s all the woodwinds in the top orchestras were playing in tune.
AB

That's a "laws of physics" answer, not a "I heard it and you are wrong" or an "I heard it and there's something to your perception which I think is X". I'm more interested in either of the last two.

[h***@gmail.com]

I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
nineteen sixties.
People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
understood.

The Heldenleben on Testament 1980's festival hall concert is according to those who heard him live as good as it gets in terms of Balance, Sibelius Pelleas suite on DG is vivid but my favourite is the Mazeppa on analogue. It's rich and it sizzles.

[Alex Brown]

Post by h***@gmail.com

I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
nineteen sixties.
People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
understood.

The Heldenleben on Testament 1980's festival hall concert is according to those who heard him live as good as it gets in terms of Balance, Sibelius Pelleas suite on DG is vivid but my favourite is the Mazeppa on analogue. It's rich and it sizzles.

To my eternal regret, when this concert happened I was a teenager newly
enthusiastic about classical music. A friend at school mentioned his
father had a spare ticket - was I interested? Since I didn't know
anything about Richard Strauss (or who "Karajan" was), I declined.

[g***@gmail.com]

I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
nineteen sixties.
People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
understood.

According to the following recent book:

- ...Karajan's "sound"...was amorphous and darkly glowing.

https://www.google.com/search?tbm=bks&hl=en&q=%22amorphous+and+darkly+glowing%22+karajan%27s+sound

[g***@gmail.com]

I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
nineteen sixties.
People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
understood.

Concerning his 1980 Parsifal:

- Karajan concentrated on the beauty of this music, at the expense of the drama.

www.google.com/url?q=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.monsalvat.no%2Fdiscogra.htm&sa=D&sntz=1&usg=AFQjCNEhYdBFZa3sg9wsXsnKVsznoEbzBA

[g***@gmail.com]

I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
nineteen sixties.
People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
understood.

According to this:

- ...{he] had not yet developed his penchant for textural refinement above all else.

https://www.classicstoday.com/review/historic-karajan-primordial-sound/

[g***@gmail.com]

Post by g***@gmail.com

I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
nineteen sixties.
People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
understood.

- ...{he] had not yet developed his penchant for textural refinement above all else.
https://www.classicstoday.com/review/historic-karajan-primordial-sound/Con

Concerning his 2nd MARS, an Amazon customer said:

- Karajan had an obsession in later life with beauty and it sometimes got in the way of expressing - in this case - the irrepressible awfulness of nasty brutish, war. The way the 5/4 rhythm is smoothed of its natural jolting and the phrasing is overly ( almost embarrassingly) etiolated out to a reasoned and predictable length, like homely spaghetti - all wrong!

[g***@gmail.com]

I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
nineteen sixties.
People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
understood.

According to the following:

- ...Many came to regard him as at best objective and at worst mechanical and superficial.

http://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/pelleas.html

[dk]

Post by g***@gmail.com

I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
nineteen sixties.
People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
understood.

- ...Many came to regard him as at best objective and at worst mechanical and superficial.
http://www.classicalnotes.net/opera/pelleas.html

Just like the quote bot! ;-)

dk

[Herman]

please don't interrupt the quote bot quoting to himself.

[O]

Post by Herman
please don't interrupt the quote bot quoting to himself.

that could be an infinite recursion!

-Owen

[g***@gmail.com]

I was wondering what is the opinion of all collectors on a performance that
best captures Herbert von Karajan's "sound." I have here, as an example that
does not please me, the "Pagliacci" of DG Originals. Even though there is a lot
of energy in the playing that you can hear right from the opening fanfares, I
hear a hard, "plastic" sound in the recording. There is not any depth to it. It
sounds like these people are playing on very shrill toy instruments, even
though with a lot of virtuosity. This is made by Deutsche Grammophon of the
nineteen sixties.
People who heard HvK in concert, especially with the BPO, talk of remembering a
very warm full sound, and that is not what I hear that the engineer has
preserved on this recording. So I am curious whether any of the hundreds of HvK
recordings, on DG and EMI, can offer sound that is any more than "adequate" and
sounds as the so called Karajan sound was experienced live. I hope that can be
understood.

(On Youtube w/over 175,000 views and over 150 comments):

Simon Rattle on Herbert von Karajan