Just Re-Read Smith's _ Skylark

Post by mimus99
Goddam those books are bad.

By today's standards, they are truly awful in every technical sense.

But epic.

Post by mimus99
I think the worst part is the easy genocides and geocides.

But very typical for space opera of the day.

Post by mimus99
Then the intellectuals don't come off too well either, compared
to the real red-blooded American he-men involved (although of
course they're really smart, too, especially compared to "the
girls").

Also pretty typical for the day. Had they not been written that way,
they would have been unpublishable at the time.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Scott Lurndal

2018-08-17 15:55:10 UTC

Post by mimus99
Goddam those books are bad.

By today's standards, they are truly awful in every technical sense.
But epic.

Post by mimus99
I think the worst part is the easy genocides and geocides.

But very typical for space opera of the day.

Very typical for the day. See Europe.

Dorothy J Heydt

2018-08-17 15:36:48 UTC

Post by mimus99
Goddam those books are bad.
I think the worst part is the easy genocides and geocides.
Then the intellectuals don't come off too well either, compared to the real
red-blooded American he-men involved (although of course they're really
smart, too, especially compared to "the girls").

They are a product of their times, in which exciting pulp stories
were read by men, mostly very young men, for whom females were
attractive but frightening unknown territory.

Post by mimus99
Next up: The _ Lensman _ series.

You'll find them a ittle better. Still pulp, but good pulp, and
at least two female people who are actual human beings. (In
every sense of the worf, for reasons which you'll understand when
you're done.)

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

d***@gmail.com

2018-08-17 16:32:01 UTC

They are a product of their times, in which exciting pulp stories
were read by men, mostly very young men, for whom females were
attractive but frightening unknown territory.

Post by mimus99
Next up: The _ Lensman _ series.

You'll find them a little better. Still pulp, but good pulp, and
at least two female people who are actual human beings. (In
every sense of the word, for reasons which you'll understand when
you're done.)

I suppose those would be Jill Samms and Clarrissa McD, aka the "Red" lensman. But what about Clio Costigan from _Triplanetary_ (and a minor walk on role in _First Lensman_) I think she qualifies.

For those not developed into full people (which few males are in this series either, character development is not its strong point) females are strange mysterious beings to be admired and protected, not the source of casual sexual gratification, at least.

-DES

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
--
Dorothy J. Heydt

Ted Nolan <tednolan>

2018-08-17 17:10:58 UTC

They are a product of their times, in which exciting pulp stories
were read by men, mostly very young men, for whom females were
attractive but frightening unknown territory.

Post by mimus99
Next up: The _ Lensman _ series.

I suppose those would be Jill Samms and Clarrissa McD, aka the "Red"
lensman. But what about Clio Costigan from _Triplanetary_ (and a minor
walk on role in _First Lensman_) I think she qualifies.
For those not developed into full people (which few males are in this
series either, character development is not its strong point) females
are strange mysterious beings to be admired and protected, not the
source of casual sexual gratification, at least.
-DES

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
--
Dorothy J. Heydt

As I recall, _Skylark Dequsne_ introduced a female foil for Blackie D
and had some interesting "witch" characters.

--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

Michael F. Stemper

2018-08-17 17:55:06 UTC

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
You'll find them a little better. Still pulp, but good pulp, and
at least two female people who are actual human beings. (In
every sense of the word, for reasons which you'll understand when
you're done.)

I suppose those would be Jill Samms and Clarrissa McD, aka the "Red"
lensman. But what about Clio Costigan from _Triplanetary_ (and a minor
walk on role in _First Lensman_) I think she qualifies.
For those not developed into full people (which few males are in this
series either, character development is not its strong point) females
are strange mysterious beings to be admired and protected, not the
source of casual sexual gratification, at least.

As I recall, _Skylark Dequsne_ introduced a female foil for Blackie D

And a kick-ass wife for Shiro.

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
and had some interesting "witch" characters.

Additionally, over the course of the four books, Dorothy and Margaret
both became real people.

--
Michael F. Stemper
2 Chronicles 19:7

Ted Nolan <tednolan>

2018-08-17 18:12:39 UTC

I suppose those would be Jill Samms and Clarrissa McD, aka the "Red"
lensman. But what about Clio Costigan from _Triplanetary_ (and a minor
walk on role in _First Lensman_) I think she qualifies.
For those not developed into full people (which few males are in this
series either, character development is not its strong point) females
are strange mysterious beings to be admired and protected, not the
source of casual sexual gratification, at least.

As I recall, _Skylark Dequsne_ introduced a female foil for Blackie D

And a kick-ass wife for Shiro.

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
and had some interesting "witch" characters.

Additionally, over the course of the four books, Dorothy and Margaret
both became real people.

Yes, was it _Valeron_ where they went into the 4th dimension? I think
Dorothy & Margaret held their own in that sequence.

--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

Robert Woodward

2018-08-18 04:43:19 UTC

I suppose those would be Jill Samms and Clarrissa McD, aka the "Red"
lensman. But what about Clio Costigan from _Triplanetary_ (and a minor
walk on role in _First Lensman_) I think she qualifies.
For those not developed into full people (which few males are in this
series either, character development is not its strong point) females
are strange mysterious beings to be admired and protected, not the
source of casual sexual gratification, at least.

As I recall, _Skylark Dequsne_ introduced a female foil for Blackie D

And a kick-ass wife for Shiro.

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
and had some interesting "witch" characters.

Additionally, over the course of the four books, Dorothy and Margaret
both became real people.

Yes, was it _Valeron_ where they went into the 4th dimension? I think
Dorothy & Margaret held their own in that sequence.

I thought they weren't doing too badly in _Skylark of Space_ (true,
Duquesne didn't consider them a threat, but, IIRC, he considered them to
be rational beings).

--
"We have advanced to new and surprising levels of bafflement."
Imperial Auditor Miles Vorkosigan describes progress in _Komarr_.
-----------------------------------------------------
Robert Woodward ***@drizzle.com

p***@hotmail.com

2018-08-19 04:45:36 UTC

Post by Robert Woodward

I suppose those would be Jill Samms and Clarrissa McD, aka the "Red"
lensman. But what about Clio Costigan from _Triplanetary_ (and a minor
walk on role in _First Lensman_) I think she qualifies.
For those not developed into full people (which few males are in this
series either, character development is not its strong point) females
are strange mysterious beings to be admired and protected, not the
source of casual sexual gratification, at least.

As I recall, _Skylark Dequsne_ introduced a female foil for Blackie D

And a kick-ass wife for Shiro.

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
and had some interesting "witch" characters.

Additionally, over the course of the four books, Dorothy and Margaret
both became real people.

Yes, was it _Valeron_ where they went into the 4th dimension? I think
Dorothy & Margaret held their own in that sequence.

I thought they weren't doing too badly in _Skylark of Space_ (true,
Duquesne didn't consider them a threat, but, IIRC, he considered them to
be rational beings).

Here is an excerpt from the 1928 _Amazing Stories_ version, courtesy
of the Gutenberg Project. Duquesne has kidnapped Dorothy and in a
mishap his spaceship took off at full power, rendering everyone on board
unconscious. They recovered when the copper bar in the engine was consumed
and the ship went into free fall. Duquesne was able to repair the control
panel and they are now in the process of attempting to navigate back to
Earth by reversing their course:

As the meal progressed, Dorothy noticed that DuQuesne's left arm seemed almost helpless, and that he ate with great difficulty because of his terribly bruised face. As soon as they had removed the trays she went into her room, where she had seen a small medicine chest, and brought out a couple of bottles.

"Lie down here, Doctor DuQuesne," she commanded. "I'm going to apply a little first-aid to the injured. Arnica and iodine are all I can find, but they'll help a little."

"I'm all right," began the scientist, but at her imperious gesture he submitted, and she bathed his battered features with the healing lotion and painted the worst bruises with iodine.

"I see your arm is lame. Where does it hurt?"

"Shoulder's the worst. I rammed it through the board when we started out."

He opened his shirt at the throat and bared his shoulder, and Dorothy gasped—as much at the size and power of the muscles displayed, as at the extent and severity of the man's injuries. Stepping into the gallery, she brought out hot water and towels and gently bathed away the clotted blood that had been forced through the skin.

"Massage it a little with the arnica as I move the arm," he directed coolly, and she did so, pityingly. He did not wince and made no sign of pain, but she saw beads of perspiration appear upon his face, and wondered at his fortitude.

"That's fine," he said gratefully as she finished, and a peculiar expression came over his face. "It feels one hundred per cent better already. But why do you do it? I should think you would feel like crowning me with that basin instead of playing nurse."

"Efficiency," she replied with a smile. "I'm taking a leaf out of your own book. You are our chief engineer, you know, and it won't do to have you laid up."

Not exactly a shrinking violet, not by ten thousand rows of little
green apple trees.

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist

Michael F. Stemper

2018-08-20 19:25:07 UTC

As I recall, _Skylark DuQuesne_ introduced a female foil for Blackie D

And a kick-ass wife for Shiro.

and had some interesting "witch" characters.

Additionally, over the course of the four books, Dorothy and Margaret
both became real people.

Yes, was it _Valeron_ where they went into the 4th dimension? I think
Dorothy & Margaret held their own in that sequence.

_Valeron_, indeed. In fact, that's my favorite of the _Skylark_ books,
although to me, the fourth-dimension episode drags. But, when they
come out, lost as nobody before had ever been, then things got cool.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Psalm 82:1-4

Dorothy J Heydt

2018-08-17 18:01:16 UTC

I suppose those would be Jill Samms and Clarrissa McD, aka the "Red"
lensman. But what about Clio Costigan from _Triplanetary_ (and a minor
walk on role in _First Lensman_) I think she qualifies.
For those not developed into full people (which few males are in this
series either, character development is not its strong point) females
are strange mysterious beings to be admired and protected, not the
source of casual sexual gratification, at least.

As I recall, _Skylark Dequsne_ introduced a female foil for Blackie D

And a kick-ass wife for Shiro.

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
and had some interesting "witch" characters.

Additionally, over the course of the four books, Dorothy and Margaret
both became real people.

Ya think?

I don't, but there's room for disagreement here.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

p***@hotmail.com

2018-08-17 23:20:06 UTC

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
As I recall, _Skylark Dequsne_ introduced a female foil for Blackie D

And a kick-ass wife for Shiro.

literally

Peter Wezeman
anti-social Darwinist

Dorothy J Heydt

2018-08-17 18:00:40 UTC

They are a product of their times, in which exciting pulp stories
were read by men, mostly very young men, for whom females were
attractive but frightening unknown territory.

Post by mimus99
Next up: The _ Lensman _ series.

I suppose those would be Jill Samms and Clarrissa McD, aka the "Red"
lensman. But what about Clio Costigan from _Triplanetary_ (and a minor
walk on role in _First Lensman_) I think she qualifies.
For those not developed into full people (which few males are in this
series either, character development is not its strong point) females
are strange mysterious beings to be admired and protected, not the
source of casual sexual gratification, at least.

As I recall, _Skylark Dequsne_ introduced a female foil for Blackie D
and had some interesting "witch" characters.

Yes, but she was very late in the series.

I just tried posting a reply to another post on this thread and
it wouldn't post, saying "Malformed Newsgroup line" or something
like that. I'll try again.

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Goddam those books are bad.
I think the worst part is the easy genocides and geocides.
Then the intellectuals don't come off too well either, compared to the real
red-blooded American he-men involved (although of course they're really
smart, too, especially compared to "the girls").

They are a product of their times, in which exciting pulp stories
were read by men, mostly very young men, for whom females were
attractive but frightening unknown territory.

Hal has just reminded me that _The Skylark of Space_ was actually
written *before* World War I. "Basically, a lot earlier than
people think."

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Next up: The _ Lensman _ series.

I suppose those would be Jill Samms and Clarrissa McD, aka the "Red"
lensman. But what about Clio Costigan from _Triplanetary_ (and a minor
walk on role in _First Lensman_) I think she qualifies.
For those not developed into full people (which few males are in this
series either, character development is not its strong point) females
are strange mysterious beings to be admired and protected, not the
source of casual sexual gratification, at least.

Well, yes. Clio is not your standard helpless female whose only
function is to be abducted, scream, and be rescued. She has her
share of courage, for instance. If we don't insist on three-
dimensionality, there's always Dessa wossname, an example of the
pulp tradition of good girls being scarcely two-dimensional,
whereas bad girls rate at least two-and-a-half.

Sea Wasp, do you have on disk anywhere your majestic fanfic
wherein Clio trounces Dessa by means of her superior social and
fashion skills?

If you don't, *I do,* and will happily post it if you give leave.

But since we're now discussing the series among those who have
read it, ... Mimus, maybe you'd better stop reading here if you
don't like spoilers .....

... Mentor or somebody says in _CotL_ that because the Arisians
decided the Human strain was the best suited to save
Civilization, the other three Second Stage Lensmen never met
their female counterparts. ("Take that terminology with a grain
of salt when it comes to Nadreck, of course.")

Pity. I would have liked to have met them.

Sea Wasp, you are now writing for genuine money, and maybe you
don't have time for fanfic any more. But I would love to see
what you'd do with Mrs. Worsel, Mrs. Tregonsee, and Nadreck's
SO[s].

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

d***@gmail.com

2018-08-17 20:35:13 UTC

<snip>

Post by mimus99
Next up: The _ Lensman _ series.

I suppose those would be Jill Samms and Clarrissa McD, aka the "Red"
lensman. But what about Clio Costigan from _Triplanetary_ (and a minor
walk on role in _First Lensman_) I think she qualifies.
For those not developed into full people (which few males are in this
series either, character development is not its strong point) females
are strange mysterious beings to be admired and protected, not the
source of casual sexual gratification, at least.

As I recall, _Skylark Dequsne_ introduced a female foil for Blackie D
and had some interesting "witch" characters.

Yes, but she was very late in the series.

<snip>

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Hal has just reminded me that _The Skylark of Space_ was actually
written *before* World War I. "Basically, a lot earlier than
people think."

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Next up: The _ Lensman _ series.

I suppose those would be Jill Samms and Clarrissa McD, aka the "Red"
lensman. But what about Clio Costigan from _Triplanetary_ (and a minor
walk on role in _First Lensman_) I think she qualifies.
For those not developed into full people (which few males are in this
series either, character development is not its strong point) females
are strange mysterious beings to be admired and protected, not the
source of casual sexual gratification, at least.

I have a copy, under the title "The Compact of Civilization" but the antagonist was Kendra Kendron (a 1-line mention in First Lensman) not Dessa Desplains (a female zwilnick who features in a short sequence o several scenes in FL).

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
But since we're now discussing the series among those who have
read it, ... Mimus, maybe you'd better stop reading here if you
don't like spoilers .....
... Mentor or somebody says in _CotL_ that because the Arisians
decided the Human strain was the best suited to save
Civilization, the other three Second Stage Lensmen never met
their female counterparts. ("Take that terminology with a grain
of salt when it comes to Nadreck, of course.")
Pity. I would have liked to have met them.
Sea Wasp, you are now writing for genuine money, and maybe you
don't have time for fanfic any more. But I would love to see
what you'd do with Mrs. Worsel, Mrs. Tregonsee, and Nadreck's
SO[s].
--

So would I.

-DES

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

Michael F. Stemper

2018-08-17 21:38:33 UTC

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Sea Wasp, do you have on disk anywhere your majestic fanfic
wherein Clio trounces Dessa by means of her superior social and
fashion skills?
If you don't, *I do,* and will happily post it if you give leave.

I have a copy, under the title "The Compact of Civilization" but the antagonist was Kendra Kendron (a 1-line mention in First Lensman)

I'd thought that my list of characters in the Lensmen series was
complete, but I don't recognize that name at all. In what part of
_First Lensman_ does she get mentioned? At the time of the Ambassador's
Ball? Staff at the uranium plant?

Inquiring minds need to know!

--
Michael F. Stemper
Why doesn't anybody care about apathy?

d***@gmail.com

2018-08-17 22:27:07 UTC

I have a copy, under the title "The Compact of Civilization" but the antagonist was Kendra Kendron (a 1-line mention in First Lensman)

That is my memory. I could be mistaken, the name might have been invented by Sea wasp. In any case she is one of the various fashionable ladies seen at the ball and no doubt present at many simialr events, i would think.

-DES

Dorothy J Heydt

2018-08-17 22:38:32 UTC

I have a copy, under the title "The Compact of Civilization" but the

antagonist was Kendra Kendron (a 1-line mention in First Lensman)

Post by Michael F. Stemper
I'd thought that my list of characters in the Lensmen series was
complete, but I don't recognize that name at all. In what part of
_First Lensman_ does she get mentioned? At the time of the Ambassador's
Ball? Staff at the uranium plant?
Inquiring minds need to know!

That is my memory. I could be mistaken, the name might have been
invented by Sea wasp. In any case she is one of the various fashionable
ladies seen at the ball and no doubt present at many simialr events, i
would think.

I just checked my copy. Her name is indeed Kendra Kendron, and
she tries to upstage Clio by wearing the same dress as Clio to q
dance.

I'll let somebody else browse through _Triplanetary_ and see if
Kendra appears in it.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

Dorothy J Heydt

2018-08-17 21:44:25 UTC

I have a copy, under the title "The Compact of Civilization" but the
antagonist was Kendra Kendron (a 1-line mention in First Lensman) not
Dessa Desplains (a female zwilnick who features in a short sequence o
several scenes in FL).

Ah. I sit corrected.

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Sea Wasp, you are now writing for genuine money, and maybe you
don't have time for fanfic any more. But I would love to see
what you'd do with Mrs. Worsel, Mrs. Tregonsee, and Nadreck's
SO[s].

So would I.

ell, Wasp of Arisia, if you can find the time ..... :)

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

2018-08-17 22:57:38 UTC

Post by d***@gmail.com
I have a copy, under the title "The Compact of Civilization" but the antagonist was Kendra Kendron (a 1-line mention in First Lensman) not Dessa Desplains (a female zwilnick who features in a short sequence o several scenes in FL).

Really? Kendra Kendron was REAL? I thought for sure I made her up.
Apparently my subconscious retains more than I thought.

But no, Dessa Desplaines is not in FL, but in GP. She's a short-term
nemesis of Kimball Kinnison, not his ancestor.

--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org

Michael F. Stemper

2018-08-19 16:48:01 UTC

Post by d***@gmail.com
I have a copy, under the title "The Compact of Civilization" but the
antagonist was Kendra Kendron (a 1-line mention in First Lensman) not
Dessa Desplains (a female zwilnick who features in a short sequence o
several scenes in FL).

Really? Kendra Kendron was REAL? I thought for sure I made her up.

I believe that you did, because her name is not in the least bit
familiar to me.

But no, Dessa Desplaines is not in FL, but in GP.

There is a reference to somebody that we can reasonably assume to be her
in Chapter 1 of _Galactic Patrol_:

"[...] For instance, Kinnison here once had a highly adventurous
interview with a lady of Aldebaran II and her friends. He did not
know that we knew about it, but we did."

However, I do not believe that she is seen, or that her name is
mentioned, until Chapter 9 of _Gray Lensman_.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Luke 17:2

-dsr-

2018-08-24 13:56:54 UTC

Post by d***@gmail.com
I have a copy, under the title "The Compact of Civilization" but the
antagonist was Kendra Kendron (a 1-line mention in First Lensman) not
Dessa Desplains (a female zwilnick who features in a short sequence o
several scenes in FL).

Really? Kendra Kendron was REAL? I thought for sure I made her up.

I believe that you did, because her name is not in the least bit
familiar to me.

I have here a plaintext set of the books, plus Vortex Blaster; grep
does not report a match for Kendra or even Ken.

-dsr-

Michael F. Stemper

2018-08-24 15:25:35 UTC

Post by d***@gmail.com
I have a copy, under the title "The Compact of Civilization" but the
antagonist was Kendra Kendron (a 1-line mention in First Lensman) not
Dessa Desplains (a female zwilnick who features in a short sequence o
several scenes in FL).

Really? Kendra Kendron was REAL? I thought for sure I made her up.

I believe that you did, because her name is not in the least bit
familiar to me.

I have here a plaintext set of the books, plus Vortex Blaster;

Nice. How much did it set you back, and where?

Post by -dsr-
grep
does not report a match for Kendra or even Ken.

Thanks for checking.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Zechariah 7:10

-dsr-

2018-08-24 19:49:22 UTC

Post by d***@gmail.com
I have a copy, under the title "The Compact of Civilization" but the
antagonist was Kendra Kendron (a 1-line mention in First Lensman) not
Dessa Desplains (a female zwilnick who features in a short sequence o
several scenes in FL).

Really? Kendra Kendron was REAL? I thought for sure I made her up.

I believe that you did, because her name is not in the least bit
familiar to me.

I have here a plaintext set of the books, plus Vortex Blaster;

Nice. How much did it set you back, and where?

I believe Project Gutenberg has them; some are restricted if you
are in the US rather than Canada.

I also make a habit of turning all the ebooks that I buy into
un-DRMed plaintext (specifically for searching) and epub (for reading).

-dsr-

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

2018-08-24 20:13:48 UTC

Post by d***@gmail.com
I have a copy, under the title "The Compact of
Civilization" but the antagonist was Kendra Kendron (a
1-line mention in First Lensman) not Dessa Desplains (a
female zwilnick who features in a short sequence o several
scenes in FL).

Â Â Â Â Really? Kendra Kendron was REAL? I thought for sure
I made her up.

I believe that you did, because her name is not in the least
bit familiar to me.

I have here a plaintext set of the books, plus Vortex Blaster;

Nice. How much did it set you back, and where?

I believe Project Gutenberg has them; some are restricted if you
are in the US rather than Canada.
I also make a habit of turning all the ebooks that I buy into
un-DRMed plaintext (specifically for searching) and epub (for
reading).

I'm curious. Do you have an epub reader that doesn't have a full
text search feature?
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Scott Lurndal

2018-08-27 13:07:37 UTC

Post by d***@gmail.com
I have a copy, under the title "The Compact of
Civilization" but the antagonist was Kendra Kendron (a
1-line mention in First Lensman) not Dessa Desplains (a
female zwilnick who features in a short sequence o several
scenes in FL).

Â Â Â Â Really? Kendra Kendron was REAL? I thought for sure
I made her up.

I believe that you did, because her name is not in the least
bit familiar to me.

I have here a plaintext set of the books, plus Vortex Blaster;

Nice. How much did it set you back, and where?

I believe Project Gutenberg has them; some are restricted if you
are in the US rather than Canada.
I also make a habit of turning all the ebooks that I buy into
un-DRMed plaintext (specifically for searching) and epub (for
reading).

I'm curious. Do you have an epub reader that doesn't have a full
text search feature?

Personally, the text search in my Nook is far from perfect, and
the idea of using grep over a simple text file on the computer
is much more attractive.

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

2018-08-27 15:37:58 UTC

On 2018-08-19, Michael F. Stemper

Post by d***@gmail.com
I have a copy, under the title "The Compact of
Civilization" but the antagonist was Kendra Kendron (a
1-line mention in First Lensman) not Dessa Desplains (a
female zwilnick who features in a short sequence o
several scenes in FL).

Â Â Â Â Really? Kendra Kendron was REAL? I thought for
sure I made her up.

I believe that you did, because her name is not in the
least bit familiar to me.

I have here a plaintext set of the books, plus Vortex
Blaster;

Nice. How much did it set you back, and where?

I believe Project Gutenberg has them; some are restricted if
you are in the US rather than Canada.
I also make a habit of turning all the ebooks that I buy into
un-DRMed plaintext (specifically for searching) and epub (for reading).

I'm curious. Do you have an epub reader that doesn't have a full
text search feature?

Personally, the text search in my Nook is far from perfect, and
the idea of using grep over a simple text file on the computer
is much more attractive.

OK, that actually makes sense, I guess. If one is enough of a
mutant to be able to understand regular expressions.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Dorothy J Heydt

2018-08-27 15:40:54 UTC

On 2018-08-19, Michael F. Stemper

Post by d***@gmail.com
I have a copy, under the title "The Compact of
Civilization" but the antagonist was Kendra Kendron (a
1-line mention in First Lensman) not Dessa Desplains (a
female zwilnick who features in a short sequence o
several scenes in FL).

Â Â Â Â Really? Kendra Kendron was REAL? I thought for
sure I made her up.

I believe that you did, because her name is not in the
least bit familiar to me.

I have here a plaintext set of the books, plus Vortex
Blaster;

Nice. How much did it set you back, and where?

I believe Project Gutenberg has them; some are restricted if
you are in the US rather than Canada.
I also make a habit of turning all the ebooks that I buy into
un-DRMed plaintext (specifically for searching) and epub (for reading).

I'm curious. Do you have an epub reader that doesn't have a full
text search feature?

Personally, the text search in my Nook is far from perfect, and
the idea of using grep over a simple text file on the computer
is much more attractive.

OK, that actually makes sense, I guess. If one is enough of a
mutant to be able to understand regular expressions.

Well, I learned them, and I still use grep to find files on my
own disk. And as all here know, I am just this side of
innumerate. Hal keeps telling me I know more about computers
than the average peson, but that is a very very low bar.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

J. Clarke

2018-08-28 00:25:24 UTC

On 2018-08-19, Michael F. Stemper

Post by d***@gmail.com
I have a copy, under the title "The Compact of
Civilization" but the antagonist was Kendra Kendron (a
1-line mention in First Lensman) not Dessa Desplains (a
female zwilnick who features in a short sequence o
several scenes in FL).

Really? Kendra Kendron was REAL? I thought for
sure I made her up.

I believe that you did, because her name is not in the
least bit familiar to me.

I have here a plaintext set of the books, plus Vortex
Blaster;

Nice. How much did it set you back, and where?

I believe Project Gutenberg has them; some are restricted if
you are in the US rather than Canada.
I also make a habit of turning all the ebooks that I buy into
un-DRMed plaintext (specifically for searching) and epub (for reading).

I'm curious. Do you have an epub reader that doesn't have a full
text search feature?

Personally, the text search in my Nook is far from perfect, and
the idea of using grep over a simple text file on the computer
is much more attractive.

OK, that actually makes sense, I guess. If one is enough of a
mutant to be able to understand regular expressions.

Dorothy, if you know regular expressions you're ahead of the last two
Computer Science graduates we hired.

Dorothy J Heydt

2018-08-28 00:31:42 UTC

On 2018-08-19, Michael F. Stemper

Post by d***@gmail.com
I have a copy, under the title "The Compact of
Civilization" but the antagonist was Kendra Kendron (a
1-line mention in First Lensman) not Dessa Desplains (a
female zwilnick who features in a short sequence o
several scenes in FL).

Really? Kendra Kendron was REAL? I thought for
sure I made her up.

I believe that you did, because her name is not in the
least bit familiar to me.

I have here a plaintext set of the books, plus Vortex
Blaster;

Nice. How much did it set you back, and where?

I believe Project Gutenberg has them; some are restricted if
you are in the US rather than Canada.
I also make a habit of turning all the ebooks that I buy into
un-DRMed plaintext (specifically for searching) and epub (for reading).

I'm curious. Do you have an epub reader that doesn't have a full
text search feature?

Personally, the text search in my Nook is far from perfect, and
the idea of using grep over a simple text file on the computer
is much more attractive.

OK, that actually makes sense, I guess. If one is enough of a
mutant to be able to understand regular expressions.

Dorothy, if you know regular expressions you're ahead of the last two
Computer Science graduates we hired.

Hal says, "I can believe it. Tell him to get them a Raspberry Pi
and learn to use it. That's what it's designed to fix."

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

J. Clarke

2018-08-28 03:28:25 UTC

On 2018-08-19, Michael F. Stemper

Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

Post by d***@gmail.com
I have a copy, under the title "The Compact of
Civilization" but the antagonist was Kendra Kendron (a
1-line mention in First Lensman) not Dessa Desplains (a
female zwilnick who features in a short sequence o
several scenes in FL).

Really? Kendra Kendron was REAL? I thought for
sure I made her up.

I believe that you did, because her name is not in the
least bit familiar to me.

I have here a plaintext set of the books, plus Vortex
Blaster;

Nice. How much did it set you back, and where?

I believe Project Gutenberg has them; some are restricted if
you are in the US rather than Canada.
I also make a habit of turning all the ebooks that I buy into
un-DRMed plaintext (specifically for searching) and epub (for reading).

I'm curious. Do you have an epub reader that doesn't have a full
text search feature?

Personally, the text search in my Nook is far from perfect, and
the idea of using grep over a simple text file on the computer
is much more attractive.

OK, that actually makes sense, I guess. If one is enough of a
mutant to be able to understand regular expressions.

Dorothy, if you know regular expressions you're ahead of the last two
Computer Science graduates we hired.

Hal says, "I can believe it. Tell him to get them a Raspberry Pi
and learn to use it. That's what it's designed to fix."

Tell him that we sit them in front of a 3270 and if their heads don't
explode in the first week they generally do OK.

Greg Goss

2018-08-28 04:20:38 UTC

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Hal says, "I can believe it. Tell him to get them a Raspberry Pi
and learn to use it. That's what it's designed to fix."

Tell him that we sit them in front of a 3270 and if their heads don't
explode in the first week they generally do OK.

3270s still exist? Thirty years ago, the ergonomics on those were so
crappy that I used a Televideo through an emulator to avoid going
blind from the waveriing interlace.

--
We are geeks. Resistance is voltage over current.

Ted Nolan <tednolan>

2018-08-28 04:26:56 UTC

Post by Greg Goss

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Hal says, "I can believe it. Tell him to get them a Raspberry Pi
and learn to use it. That's what it's designed to fix."

Tell him that we sit them in front of a 3270 and if their heads don't
explode in the first week they generally do OK.

3270s still exist? Thirty years ago, the ergonomics on those were so
crappy that I used a Televideo through an emulator to avoid going
blind from the waveriing interlace.
--

They look good when you're coming from a keypunch!

--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

Dorothy J Heydt

2018-08-28 12:51:05 UTC

On 2018-08-19, Michael F. Stemper

Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

Post by d***@gmail.com
I have a copy, under the title "The Compact of
Civilization" but the antagonist was Kendra Kendron (a
1-line mention in First Lensman) not Dessa Desplains (a
female zwilnick who features in a short sequence o
several scenes in FL).

Really? Kendra Kendron was REAL? I thought for
sure I made her up.

I believe that you did, because her name is not in the
least bit familiar to me.

I have here a plaintext set of the books, plus Vortex
Blaster;

Nice. How much did it set you back, and where?

I believe Project Gutenberg has them; some are restricted if
you are in the US rather than Canada.
I also make a habit of turning all the ebooks that I buy into
un-DRMed plaintext (specifically for searching) and epub (for reading).

I'm curious. Do you have an epub reader that doesn't have a full
text search feature?

Personally, the text search in my Nook is far from perfect, and
the idea of using grep over a simple text file on the computer
is much more attractive.

OK, that actually makes sense, I guess. If one is enough of a
mutant to be able to understand regular expressions.

Dorothy, if you know regular expressions you're ahead of the last two
Computer Science graduates we hired.

Hal says, "I can believe it. Tell him to get them a Raspberry Pi
and learn to use it. That's what it's designed to fix."

Tell him that we sit them in front of a 3270 and if their heads don't
explode in the first week they generally do OK.

He laughed and said, "Yeah, I used to program on those."

Whatever works.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

Default User

2018-08-28 05:00:44 UTC

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Well, I learned them, and I still use grep to find files on my
own disk. And as all here know, I am just this side of
innumerate. Hal keeps telling me I know more about computers
than the average peson, but that is a very very low bar.

Dorothy, if you know regular expressions you're ahead of the last two
Computer Science graduates we hired.

When I was still a productive member of society, I had occasional use
for regex. The last several years at Megacorp I was doing development
of control software for instrumentation in ground-support stations for
aircraft.

When there were problems in the field, I would have the on-site people
use a tracing program to capture the command/response traffic between
the control and instruments. I would tell them to save it as CSV files,
as those were easier to work with, but theyd almost always send plain
text. The latter used a formatting that wasnt as useful.

Id then have to use the Visual Studio search and replace with a
combination of wildcard and regular expressions to get into a usable
form.

Good times.

Brian

Scott Lurndal

2018-08-27 16:17:32 UTC

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
I'm curious. Do you have an epub reader that doesn't have a full
text search feature?

Personally, the text search in my Nook is far from perfect, and
the idea of using grep over a simple text file on the computer
is much more attractive.

OK, that actually makes sense, I guess. If one is enough of a
mutant to be able to understand regular expressions.

To be fair, regular expressions aren't required with grep, even
tho that's what the 're' in grep stands for (global regular expression print)
or (g/RE/p for the ed/vi crowd).

for example:

grep -iw terry *.html

(find all occurances of the word 'terry', regardless of case)

My problems with the Nook are more around the lack of usability
of the interface (simple nook), it's speed, and the fact that it always starts the
search at the beginning, rather than the page you're currently reading.

Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha

2018-08-27 16:31:48 UTC

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
I'm curious. Do you have an epub reader that doesn't have a
full text search feature?

Personally, the text search in my Nook is far from perfect,
and the idea of using grep over a simple text file on the
computer is much more attractive.

OK, that actually makes sense, I guess. If one is enough of a
mutant to be able to understand regular expressions.

You've just made my point about mutant-ness, you know.

Post by Scott Lurndal
My problems with the Nook are more around the lack of usability
of the interface (simple nook), it's speed, and the fact that it
always starts the search at the beginning, rather than the page
you're currently reading.

Instant gratification isn't fast enough for some people.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Jerry Brown

2018-08-27 16:45:11 UTC

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
I'm curious. Do you have an epub reader that doesn't have a full
text search feature?

Personally, the text search in my Nook is far from perfect, and
the idea of using grep over a simple text file on the computer
is much more attractive.

OK, that actually makes sense, I guess. If one is enough of a
mutant to be able to understand regular expressions.

To be fair, regular expressions aren't required with grep, even
tho that's what the 're' in grep stands for (global regular expression print)
or (g/RE/p for the ed/vi crowd).
grep -iw terry *.html
(find all occurances of the word 'terry', regardless of case)
My problems with the Nook are more around the lack of usability
of the interface (simple nook), it's speed, and the fact that it always starts the
search at the beginning, rather than the page you're currently reading.

The Kindle does that as well. It also does an "intelligent" search
(searching for "launch" will also find "launched", "launches",
"launching", etc which I've found irritating more often than not.

One of the few things that the Sony E-Reader did better was that its
text search would find the nearest instance with "prev" and "next"
buttons.

grep on a text file can be more flexible, especially if looking for a
phrase, but that can get stymied depending on the type of text file;
e.g. looking for "these are the voyages" will find the phrase if there
is only a hard break at the end of each paragraph, but may fail if the
file is justified via line breaks and there is one in the middle of
the text (to the the best of my knowledge, "." will not span hard line
breaks).

--
Jerry Brown

A cat may look at a king
(but probably won't bother)

Default User

2018-08-27 17:13:56 UTC

The Kindle does that as well. It also does an "intelligent" search
(searching for "launch" will also find "launched", "launches",
"launching", etc which I've found irritating more often than not.

I'm not sure the example is so much an intelligent search as it is
substring. Now if you searched for "launched" and it found "launching",
then yeah. Or worse some of the Google-stlye whole word substitutions.

Brian

Jerry Brown

2018-08-27 18:57:56 UTC

On Mon, 27 Aug 2018 17:13:56 -0000 (UTC), "Default User"

Post by Default User

The Kindle does that as well. It also does an "intelligent" search
(searching for "launch" will also find "launched", "launches",
"launching", etc which I've found irritating more often than not.

Good point. This raised doubts in my mind so I got my Kindle and did a
search for "launching" in "Billson's Movie Database" (which I mention
in my reply to James's "Fighting Erasure" post) and it includes
"launching", "launch", "launched" and "launches" in its results.

--
Jerry Brown

A cat may look at a king
(but probably won't bother)

Default User

2018-08-28 00:18:25 UTC

Post by Jerry Brown
On Mon, 27 Aug 2018 17:13:56 -0000 (UTC), "Default User"

Post by Default User

The Kindle does that as well. It also does an "intelligent" search
(searching for "launch" will also find "launched", "launches",
"launching", etc which I've found irritating more often than not.

I'm not sure the example is so much an intelligent search as it is
substring. Now if you searched for "launched" and it found
"launching", then yeah. Or worse some of the Google-stlye whole
word substitutions.

So indeed a smart search. My iBooks app does straight substring.

Brian

Scott Lurndal

2018-08-27 17:17:42 UTC

Post by Jerry Brown
grep on a text file can be more flexible, especially if looking for a
phrase, but that can get stymied depending on the type of text file;
e.g. looking for "these are the voyages" will find the phrase if there
is only a hard break at the end of each paragraph, but may fail if the
file is justified via line breaks and there is one in the middle of
the text (to the the best of my knowledge, "." will not span hard line
breaks).

I recall a paper from the 90's about a tool called 'agrep' (approximate
grep) that was designed to deal with some of these issues. I wonder
whatever became of it?

Ah,

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/2799686_Agrep_-_A_Fast_Approximate_Pattern-Matching_Tool

J. Clarke

2018-08-28 00:28:17 UTC

On Mon, 27 Aug 2018 17:45:11 +0100, Jerry Brown

Post by Jibini Kula Tumbili Kujisalimisha
I'm curious. Do you have an epub reader that doesn't have a full
text search feature?

Personally, the text search in my Nook is far from perfect, and
the idea of using grep over a simple text file on the computer
is much more attractive.

OK, that actually makes sense, I guess. If one is enough of a
mutant to be able to understand regular expressions.

The Kindle does that as well. It also does an "intelligent" search
(searching for "launch" will also find "launched", "launches",
"launching", etc which I've found irritating more often than not.
One of the few things that the Sony E-Reader did better was that its
text search would find the nearest instance with "prev" and "next"
buttons.
grep on a text file can be more flexible, especially if looking for a
phrase, but that can get stymied depending on the type of text file;
e.g. looking for "these are the voyages" will find the phrase if there
is only a hard break at the end of each paragraph, but may fail if the
file is justified via line breaks and there is one in the middle of
the text (to the the best of my knowledge, "." will not span hard line
breaks).

Depends on the version. Some have a flag to include line breaks in
".".

Michael F. Stemper

2018-08-28 18:13:28 UTC

Post by Scott Lurndal
Personally, the text search in my Nook is far from perfect, and
the idea of using grep over a simple text file on the computer
is much more attractive.

OK, that actually makes sense, I guess. If one is enough of a
mutant to be able to understand regular expressions.

My problems with the Nook are more around the lack of usability
of the interface (simple nook), it's speed, and the fact that it always starts the
search at the beginning, rather than the page you're currently reading.

To be fair, I think that grep always starts at the beginning of the
file, as well.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Galatians 3:28

Scott Lurndal

2018-08-28 19:57:40 UTC

Post by Scott Lurndal
Personally, the text search in my Nook is far from perfect, and
the idea of using grep over a simple text file on the computer
is much more attractive.

OK, that actually makes sense, I guess. If one is enough of a
mutant to be able to understand regular expressions.

To be fair, I think that grep always starts at the beginning of the
file, as well.

To be even more fair, grep is a filter, which, when downstream of other
filters such as head or tail give control over the starting (and ending)
point of the search.

Dorothy J Heydt

2018-08-28 19:41:08 UTC

Post by Scott Lurndal
Personally, the text search in my Nook is far from perfect, and
the idea of using grep over a simple text file on the computer
is much more attractive.

OK, that actually makes sense, I guess. If one is enough of a
mutant to be able to understand regular expressions.

My problems with the Nook are more around the lack of usability
of the interface (simple nook), it's speed, and the fact that it

always starts the

Post by Scott Lurndal
search at the beginning, rather than the page you're currently reading.

To be fair, I think that grep always starts at the beginning of the
file, as well.

Well, yes, it does ... but grep is a shell command; doesn't work
inside vi unless you type :!grep [search item/regular expression] [file].
Which gets you temporarily out of the editor into the shell.

So unless you are searching for a word or regular expression that
you expect to find in only one or a few file(s), in which case
you can type grep [regular expression that will include the word
but not many other words] [regular expression that will include
the filename] from the shell.

E.g., if I get into my directory that contains comments on _A
Point of Honor_ and type grep Honour * , I get about six returns
of comments that gave the word the British spelling.

And grep will search the *entire* file(s) specified by the
regular expression, and I assume it starts from the beginning
because it lists them in the order they appear in the file(s).

But note, it searches very quickly. I got those six returns in a
couple of seconds.

For searching inside vi, one uses the ex command (reached by
typing : while in edit/read mode, not input mode) followed by / ,
followed by the string you want, and yes, regular expressions
work there.

But how many people use vi any more, other than me?

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

Scott Lurndal

2018-08-28 20:03:47 UTC

Post by Scott Lurndal
Personally, the text search in my Nook is far from perfect, and
the idea of using grep over a simple text file on the computer
is much more attractive.

OK, that actually makes sense, I guess. If one is enough of a
mutant to be able to understand regular expressions.

My problems with the Nook are more around the lack of usability
of the interface (simple nook), it's speed, and the fact that it

always starts the

Post by Scott Lurndal
search at the beginning, rather than the page you're currently reading.

To be fair, I think that grep always starts at the beginning of the
file, as well.

Well, yes, it does ... but grep is a shell command; doesn't work
inside vi unless you type :!grep [search item/regular expression] [file].
Which gets you temporarily out of the editor into the shell.

Actually, it does work in vi/ex (that's where it came from, originally):

:g/re/p

for example:

:g/Heydt/p

scott

Michael Ikeda

2018-08-28 22:20:35 UTC

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
For searching inside vi, one uses the ex command (reached by
typing : while in edit/read mode, not input mode) followed by /
, followed by the string you want, and yes, regular expressions
work there.
But how many people use vi any more, other than me?

I use it occasionally. It's useful when I want to make the same
substitution a bunch of times in a program.

Ted Nolan <tednolan>

2018-08-28 23:13:38 UTC

I use it occasionally. It's useful when I want to make the same
substitution a bunch of times in a program.

Constantly, though sometimes "vim" is all that is available.

--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

Dorothy J Heydt

2018-08-28 23:40:11 UTC

I use it occasionally. It's useful when I want to make the same
substitution a bunch of times in a program.

Constantly, though sometimes "vim" is all that is available.

I have yet to face a situation where vim is all that's available.
How close to vi is it?

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

Ted Nolan <tednolan>

2018-08-29 00:12:05 UTC

I use it occasionally. It's useful when I want to make the same
substitution a bunch of times in a program.

Constantly, though sometimes "vim" is all that is available.

I have yet to face a situation where vim is all that's available.
How close to vi is it?

You may have used it. On some Linux systems it comes up when you type
either "vi" or "vim".

It's close enough to be annoying with the default settings. You expect
everything to work, but then you get to the end of a line (not in
insert mode) and the cursor wraps to the next one. I think that's the
one I hate the most, but there are a number of other small buy annoying
differences.

Doing
set compatible

in your .vimrc

fixes most of it then there are a number of other things you have to
set one by one to get most of the rest of it.

--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

Kevrob

2018-08-29 02:02:16 UTC

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
You may have used it. On some Linux systems it comes up when you type
either "vi" or "vim".

I haven't used it, which makes it no different than any other text
editor.

I will be interested to see if the users in the group add
up to VI.

Kevin R

Dorothy J Heydt

2018-08-29 03:53:57 UTC

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
You may have used it. On some Linux systems it comes up when you type
either "vi" or "vim".

I haven't used it, which makes it no different than any other text
editor.
I will be interested to see if the users in the group add
up to VI.

Well, since I seem to've started this diversion, count me as I.

Quanti plures?

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

Dimensional Traveler

2018-08-29 05:33:10 UTC

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
You may have used it. On some Linux systems it comes up when you type
either "vi" or "vim".

I haven't used it, which makes it no different than any other text
editor.
I will be interested to see if the users in the group add
up to VI.

Well, since I seem to've started this diversion, count me as I.
Quanti plures?

II

Though I see posts from more than six user in just a single screen of
the posts listing on my reader.

--
Inquiring minds want to know while minds with a self-preservation
instinct are running screaming.

Jay E. Morris

2018-08-29 14:52:11 UTC

Post by Dimensional Traveler

You may have used it. On some Linux systems it comes up when you type
either "vi" or "vim".

I haven't used it, which makes it no different than any other text
editor.
I will be interested to see if the users in the group add
up to VI.

Well, since I seem to've started this diversion, count me as I.
Quanti plures?

II
Though I see posts from more than six user in just a single screen of
the posts listing on my reader.

Well, I do VIM so would that have to be 6,000 users?

Michael F. Stemper

2018-08-31 12:35:54 UTC

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Jay E. Morris

Post by Kevrob
I will be interested to see if the users in the group add
up to VI.

Well, since I seem to've started this diversion, count me as I.
Quanti plures?

II
Though I see posts from more than six user in just a single screen of
the posts listing on my reader.

Well, I do VIM so would that have to be 6,000 users?

In the '80s and early '90s, I worked for Control Data Corporation. One
of the cutting edge computers we (a different division) produced was
the CDC 6000. The CDC users' group then named itself "VIM" by the same
reasoning.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Deuteronomy 10:18-19

-dsr-

2018-08-31 16:00:16 UTC

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Jay E. Morris

You may have used it. On some Linux systems it comes up when you type
either "vi" or "vim".

I haven't used it, which makes it no different than any other text
editor.
I will be interested to see if the users in the group add
up to VI.

Well, since I seem to've started this diversion, count me as I.
Quanti plures?

II
Though I see posts from more than six user in just a single screen of
the posts listing on my reader.

Well, I do VIM so would that have to be 6,000 users?

I'll make my mark here. I'm typing in it now.

(And I make no distinction between vi, vim, neovim, and other vi-alikes,
for the purpose of counting people using text editors. VILE mode in EMACS,
that's borderline.)

-dsr-

Leif Roar Moldskred

2018-08-29 06:54:08 UTC

Post by Kevrob
I haven't used it, which makes it no different than any other text
editor.
I will be interested to see if the users in the group add
up to VI.

In this group? I'd be surprised if it didn't. I've used it occasionally.
While I prefer Emacs overall, vi(m) has an edge in being available
pretty much everywhere and starting up immediately.

--
Leif Roar Moldskred
Well, pretty much everywhere _that counts_, at least.

Jaimie Vandenbergh

2018-08-29 10:27:59 UTC

Post by Leif Roar Moldskred

Post by Kevrob
I haven't used it, which makes it no different than any other text
editor.
I will be interested to see if the users in the group add
up to VI.

In this group? I'd be surprised if it didn't. I've used it occasionally.
While I prefer Emacs overall, vi(m) has an edge in being available
pretty much everywhere and starting up immediately.

I never did get on with emacs. Nor vi really, but due to ubiquity
(except on Windows, even back when it did use text files for
configuration!) I'm proficient in it. So I think that makes me IV.

Cheers - Jaimie

--
Whilst holidaying with the sprogs and watching Favourite Teddy Bear
trundling through the x-ray, I speculated on the fun that could be had
with a teddy bear containing a radio-opaque teddy-bear skeleton.
- K, asr

Chris Buckley

2018-08-29 18:06:54 UTC

Post by Leif Roar Moldskred

Post by Kevrob
I haven't used it, which makes it no different than any other text
editor.
I will be interested to see if the users in the group add
up to VI.

In this group? I'd be surprised if it didn't. I've used it occasionally.
While I prefer Emacs overall, vi(m) has an edge in being available
pretty much everywhere and starting up immediately.

Likewise. My major use of vi (or vim) is on new Linux releases before
I get around to installing emacs, though it gets used on other rare
occasions.

Chris

Scott Lurndal

2018-08-29 13:34:12 UTC

I use it occasionally. It's useful when I want to make the same
substitution a bunch of times in a program.

Constantly, though sometimes "vim" is all that is available.

I have yet to face a situation where vim is all that's available.
How close to vi is it?

You may have used it. On some Linux systems it comes up when you type
either "vi" or "vim".
It's close enough to be annoying with the default settings. You expect
everything to work, but then you get to the end of a line (not in
insert mode) and the cursor wraps to the next one. I think that's the
one I hate the most, but there are a number of other small buy annoying
differences.

those differences are often distribution specific (i.e. the distro
modifies the default vim configuration in /etc/vimrc during
packaging).

Yes, it's annoying, but modern vim's capabilities are useful
enough that the annoyance is minor.

Scott Lurndal

2018-08-29 13:32:12 UTC

I use it occasionally. It's useful when I want to make the same
substitution a bunch of times in a program.

Constantly, though sometimes "vim" is all that is available.

I have yet to face a situation where vim is all that's available.
How close to vi is it?

You can tell it to behave identically. However, even if you don't,
everything you do in vi, you do the same in vim. vim just does
a whole lot more.

Gary R. Schmidt

2018-08-29 11:40:28 UTC

On 29/08/2018 05:41, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
[SNIP]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
For searching inside vi, one uses the ex command (reached by
typing : while in edit/read mode, not input mode) followed by / ,
followed by the string you want, and yes, regular expressions
work there.

You have never needed the ex escape in vi to enter a search string, just
typing /blah does it. Well, for values of "just does it" that go back
to vi on BSD 4.0 on VAXen back in 1980, I am not sure about previous BSD
releases.

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
But how many people use vi any more, other than me?

There's more than a few of us left, particularly those who still wrangle
HPUX and AIX and old Solaris systems (new Solaris boxes, like Linux
syetms, have vim).

Cheers,
Gary B-)

--
When men talk to their friends, they insult each other.
They don't really mean it.
When women talk to their friends, they compliment each other.
They don't mean it either.

Dorothy J Heydt

2018-08-29 12:58:52 UTC

Post by Gary R. Schmidt
[SNIP]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
For searching inside vi, one uses the ex command (reached by
typing : while in edit/read mode, not input mode) followed by / ,
followed by the string you want, and yes, regular expressions
work there.

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
But how many people use vi any more, other than me?

There's more than a few of us left, particularly those who still wrangle
HPUX and AIX and old Solaris systems (new Solaris boxes, like Linux
syetms, have vim).

Well, I don't do any of those things. Just USENET. But way back
in the eighties, when I was learning UNIX text-formatting,*
Ilearned vi from Bill Tuthill, who if he didn't invent vi put
some of the finishing touches on it.

_____
*As a step up from typing and re-typing the masters of working
papers, every time somebody found a typo or the professor changed
his mind.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

Michael F. Stemper

2018-08-29 12:39:21 UTC

Post by Scott Lurndal
My problems with the Nook are more around the lack of usability
of the interface (simple nook), it's speed, and the fact that it

always starts the

Post by Scott Lurndal
search at the beginning, rather than the page you're currently reading.

To be fair, I think that grep always starts at the beginning of the
file, as well.

Well, yes, it does ... but grep is a shell command;

That was my point, yes.

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
For searching inside vi, one uses the ex command (reached by
typing : while in edit/read mode, not input mode) followed by / ,
followed by the string you want, and yes, regular expressions
work there.

Not what I'd call "grep". However, Scott pointed out that grep actually
has its origin within ex/vi and showed an example of its use there.
This was something that I'd heard of once and long forgotten.

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
But how many people use vi any more, other than me?

Well, I use it every day.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.

Dorothy J Heydt

2018-08-29 13:07:48 UTC

Post by Scott Lurndal
My problems with the Nook are more around the lack of usability
of the interface (simple nook), it's speed, and the fact that it

always starts the

Post by Scott Lurndal
search at the beginning, rather than the page you're currently reading.

To be fair, I think that grep always starts at the beginning of the
file, as well.

Well, yes, it does ... but grep is a shell command;

That was my point, yes.

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
For searching inside vi, one uses the ex command (reached by
typing : while in edit/read mode, not input mode) followed by / ,
followed by the string you want, and yes, regular expressions
work there.

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
But how many people use vi any more, other than me?

Well, I use it every day.

Okay, does that make you IV?

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

Michael F. Stemper

2018-08-29 18:21:33 UTC

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
But how many people use vi any more, other than me?

Well, I use it every day.

Okay, others have pointed out that technically the binary is:
***@host$ which vi
/usr/bin/vi
***@host$ ll /usr/bin/vi
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 Nov 22 2016 /usr/bin/vi -> /etc/alternatives/vi
***@host$ ll /etc/alternatives/vi
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 17 Nov 22 2016 /etc/alternatives/vi ->
/usr/bin/vim.tiny
***@host$

However, the commands that I use are identical to those that I used
in vi for decades, so I'm going to stick with my original statement.

Off-hand, does anybody know *why* linux doesn't just call vi "vi"?
Is it a copyright thing, similar to the way that linux can't call
itself "linux"?

--
Michael F. Stemper
A preposition is something you should never end a sentence with.

Ted Nolan <tednolan>

2018-08-29 19:19:05 UTC

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
But how many people use vi any more, other than me?

Well, I use it every day.

/usr/bin/vi
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 20 Nov 22 2016 /usr/bin/vi -> /etc/alternatives/vi
lrwxrwxrwx 1 root root 17 Nov 22 2016 /etc/alternatives/vi ->
/usr/bin/vim.tiny
However, the commands that I use are identical to those that I used
in vi for decades, so I'm going to stick with my original statement.
Off-hand, does anybody know *why* linux doesn't just call vi "vi"?
Is it a copyright thing, similar to the way that linux can't call
itself "linux"?
--

"vim" is a totally separate program that was written independantly of "vi".

The original "vi" is still around, so they really can't call it that
officially. (Though they can arrange for it to be invoked when you
type the "vi" command).

--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

Dorothy J Heydt

2018-08-29 19:15:34 UTC

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
But how many people use vi any more, other than me?

Well, I use it every day.

Probably. Remember that Linux is not a copy of UNIX; it's a
completely different system that happens to get the same results
from different programs with (usually) the same names.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

Scott Lurndal

2018-08-29 20:08:43 UTC

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
But how many people use vi any more, other than me?

Well, I use it every day.

There are several vi clones (e.g. elvis) as well as BSD versions
of vi available on many distributions. The /etc/alternatives
hack allows the distribution or user to customize the installation for
the desired vi clone (elvis, vim, bsd vi, etc).

The vim executable gets passed the executable name in argv[0] and
sets up different defaults if basename(argv[0]) is 'vi' vs. 'vim'.

Gene Wirchenko

2018-08-30 22:57:24 UTC

On Wed, 29 Aug 2018 13:21:33 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"
<***@gmail.com> wrote:

[snip]

Post by Michael F. Stemper
Off-hand, does anybody know *why* linux doesn't just call vi "vi"?
Is it a copyright thing, similar to the way that linux can't call
itself "linux"?

Why not call it "six", like in the old joke?

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

Dorothy J Heydt

2018-08-30 23:34:03 UTC

Post by Gene Wirchenko
On Wed, 29 Aug 2018 13:21:33 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"
[snip]

Post by Michael F. Stemper
Off-hand, does anybody know *why* linux doesn't just call vi "vi"?
Is it a copyright thing, similar to the way that linux can't call
itself "linux"?

Why not call it "six", like in the old joke?

Because it's short for "visual," which I suspect you knew.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

m***@sky.com

2018-08-31 04:10:22 UTC

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
But how many people use vi any more, other than me?

Well, I use it every day.

If you look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vim_(text_editor) you can see that vim is a clone of the original unix vi. I presume that Linux took the clone vim, rather than the original vi. Since vim was an clone rather than a copy or a port of the original vi, to call it vi rather than vim could have been considered misleading.

Jaimie Vandenbergh

2018-08-31 10:56:10 UTC

On Wed, 29 Aug 2018 13:21:33 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"

Post by Michael F. Stemper
Off-hand, does anybody know *why* linux doesn't just call vi "vi"?
Is it a copyright thing, similar to the way that linux can't call
itself "linux"?

I suspect you mean can't call itself "unix"? That's not a copyright
thing, that's a standards-compliance thing. The Linux community has
basically refused to be part of the 'old-school' and intentionally
hasn't gone with the Single Unix Specification standard. They act like a
bunch of children sometimes, which is unsurprising given Linus'
behaviour... although they're right that it doesn't matter these days,
it definitely did back in the 90s when Linux was the hot new thing but
aggravatingly different from commercial Unixes. That childish behaviour
did begat job security for all those people porting code to Linux, but
since a lot of it was unpaid OSS development it was really just a pain
in the arse for all involved. Bunch of west coast hipsters being jerks
basically.

I say this as someone who manages many thousand Linux servers in bare
metal/VM/cloud, btw. From Macs, which *are* Unix and have been since the
early 2000s https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/apple.htm

Cheers - Jaimie

--
The person who says it cannot be done should not interrupt the person doing it.

J. Clarke

2018-08-31 11:18:02 UTC

On Fri, 31 Aug 2018 11:56:10 +0100, Jaimie Vandenbergh

Post by Gene Wirchenko
On Wed, 29 Aug 2018 13:21:33 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"

Post by Michael F. Stemper
Off-hand, does anybody know *why* linux doesn't just call vi "vi"?
Is it a copyright thing, similar to the way that linux can't call
itself "linux"?

I suspect you mean can't call itself "unix"? That's not a copyright
thing, that's a standards-compliance thing.

No, that's a TRADEMARK thing. The word "UNIX" is a registered
trademark of The Open Group and to use it to describe an operating
system that one produces or sells one must have a license from that
organization or they can successfully sue you into oblivion.

Post by Gene Wirchenko
The Linux community has
basically refused to be part of the 'old-school' and intentionally
hasn't gone with the Single Unix Specification standard. They act like a
bunch of children sometimes, which is unsurprising given Linus'
behaviour... although they're right that it doesn't matter these days,
it definitely did back in the 90s when Linux was the hot new thing but
aggravatingly different from commercial Unixes. That childish behaviour
did begat job security for all those people porting code to Linux, but
since a lot of it was unpaid OSS development it was really just a pain
in the arse for all involved. Bunch of west coast hipsters being jerks
basically.

Given that Z/OS has passed the tests promulgated by The Open Group and
IBM is legally entitled to refer to Z/OS as "UNIX", the notion that
unwillingness to comply with the Single Unix Specification standard is
the obstacle to Linux being called "UNIX" is laughable.

I suspect that it has more to do with being unwilling to pay the
$25,000 a year (minimum) licensing fee for the UNIX brand.

Post by Gene Wirchenko
I say this as someone who manages many thousand Linux servers in bare
metal/VM/cloud, btw. From Macs, which *are* Unix and have been since the
early 2000s https://www.opengroup.org/openbrand/register/apple.htm
Cheers - Jaimie

Michael F. Stemper

2018-08-31 12:45:57 UTC

Post by J. Clarke
On Fri, 31 Aug 2018 11:56:10 +0100, Jaimie Vandenbergh

Post by Gene Wirchenko
On Wed, 29 Aug 2018 13:21:33 -0500, "Michael F. Stemper"

Post by Michael F. Stemper
Off-hand, does anybody know *why* linux doesn't just call vi "vi"?
Is it a copyright thing, similar to the way that linux can't call
itself "linux"?

I suspect you mean can't call itself "unix"?

That was what I meant, yeah.

Post by Gene Wirchenko
That's not a copyright
thing, that's a standards-compliance thing.

No, that's a TRADEMARK thing.

That would also be what I meant. Bad post!

Post by J. Clarke
The word "UNIX" is a registered
trademark of The Open Group and to use it to describe an operating
system that one produces or sells one must have a license from that
organization or they can successfully sue you into oblivion.

Thought so. Thanks.

Post by J. Clarke
Given that Z/OS has passed the tests promulgated by The Open Group and
IBM is legally entitled to refer to Z/OS as "UNIX", the notion that
unwillingness to comply with the Single Unix Specification standard is
the obstacle to Linux being called "UNIX" is laughable.

Huh. For about twenty years, I was involved in delivering systems based
on IBM's AIX. We were instructed very clearly that we could not refer to
AIX as "UNIX". I'd always had the impression that this was again a
licensing issue.

Post by J. Clarke
I suspect that it has more to do with being unwilling to pay the
$25,000 a year (minimum) licensing fee for the UNIX brand.

Ah! "Minimum"! I was thinking that 25k$ annually wouldn't be enough to
count as chump change for IBM, but I'll be that the sliding scale slid
enough to even be painful for them.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Deuteronomy 10:18-19

Leif Roar Moldskred

2018-08-31 11:20:32 UTC

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
But how many people use vi any more, other than me?

Well, I use it every day.

Apparently. According to the Wikipedia entry on vi,
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Vi , the source code for vi had license
restrictions that prevented its use in open source projects until
2002. By that time, vi-clones like vim would already have entrenched
themselves in the Linux distributions.

--
Leif Roar Moldskred

Robert Carnegie

2018-08-30 00:12:36 UTC

Post by Scott Lurndal
My problems with the Nook are more around the lack of usability
of the interface (simple nook), it's speed, and the fact that it

always starts the

Post by Scott Lurndal
search at the beginning, rather than the page you're currently reading.

To be fair, I think that grep always starts at the beginning of the
file, as well.

Well, yes, it does ... but grep is a shell command;

That was my point, yes.

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
For searching inside vi, one uses the ex command (reached by
typing : while in edit/read mode, not input mode) followed by / ,
followed by the string you want, and yes, regular expressions
work there.

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
But how many people use vi any more, other than me?

Well, I use it every day.
--
Michael F. Stemper
Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.

I used something like "vi" this week to examine a file
transfer log, on antique SCO UNIX; strictly I think it's
a call as "view filename" in some script, which just opens
the editor in read-only mode, which I think I can choose
to override once it's running.

"Regular expression" means something like writing [0-9]
in a search string to represent any numeral, but I hadn't
either associated it with vi, or, I think, um, with grep.
With sed, yes.

"um" probably is another UNIX or Linux command that
I don't know?

Dorothy J Heydt

2018-08-30 00:52:02 UTC

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Scott Lurndal
My problems with the Nook are more around the lack of usability
of the interface (simple nook), it's speed, and the fact that it

always starts the

Post by Scott Lurndal
search at the beginning, rather than the page you're currently reading.

To be fair, I think that grep always starts at the beginning of the
file, as well.

Well, yes, it does ... but grep is a shell command;

That was my point, yes.

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
For searching inside vi, one uses the ex command (reached by
typing : while in edit/read mode, not input mode) followed by / ,
followed by the string you want, and yes, regular expressions
work there.

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
But how many people use vi any more, other than me?

Well, I use it every day.
--
Michael F. Stemper
Always remember that you are unique. Just like everyone else.

I used something like "vi" this week to examine a file
transfer log, on antique SCO UNIX; strictly I think it's
a call as "view filename" in some script, which just opens
the editor in read-only mode, which I think I can choose
to override once it's running.
"Regular expression" means something like writing [0-9]
in a search string to represent any numeral, but I hadn't
either associated it with vi, or, I think, um, with grep.
With sed, yes.
"um" probably is another UNIX or Linux command that
I don't know?

I just checked. "No manual entry for um." Mind, kithrup is
running not Linux but 4.2 BSD UNIX.

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

Scott Lurndal

2018-08-30 13:11:29 UTC

Post by Robert Carnegie
"Regular expression" means something like writing [0-9]
in a search string to represent any numeral, but I hadn't
either associated it with vi, or, I think, um, with grep.
With sed, yes.
"um" probably is another UNIX or Linux command that
I don't know?

It's a verbal stop.

Gene Wirchenko

2018-08-30 22:58:34 UTC

It's a verbal stop.

<BEG>

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

David DeLaney

2018-08-31 13:21:38 UTC

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
But how many people use vi any more, other than me?

I would if I still had access to my shell account on VIC, but VIC is dead. So
now I'm essentially restricted to Notepad. Which isn't terrible.

Dave, I am PERFECTLY sure that, like veteran emacs users, my fingers recall
The Way

--
\/David DeLaney posting thru EarthLink - "It's not the pot that grows the flower
It's not the clock that slows the hour The definition's plain for anyone to see
Love is all it takes to make a family" - R&P. VISUALIZE HAPPYNET VRbeable<BLINK>
my gatekeeper archives are no longer accessible :( / I WUV you in all CAPS! --K.

Ted Nolan <tednolan>

2018-08-27 17:10:51 UTC

On 2018-08-19, Michael F. Stemper

Post by d***@gmail.com
I have a copy, under the title "The Compact of
Civilization" but the antagonist was Kendra Kendron (a
1-line mention in First Lensman) not Dessa Desplains (a
female zwilnick who features in a short sequence o
several scenes in FL).

Â Â Â Â Really? Kendra Kendron was REAL? I thought for
sure I made her up.

I believe that you did, because her name is not in the
least bit familiar to me.

I have here a plaintext set of the books, plus Vortex
Blaster;

Nice. How much did it set you back, and where?

I believe Project Gutenberg has them; some are restricted if
you are in the US rather than Canada.
I also make a habit of turning all the ebooks that I buy into
un-DRMed plaintext (specifically for searching) and epub (for reading).

I'm curious. Do you have an epub reader that doesn't have a full
text search feature?

Personally, the text search in my Nook is far from perfect, and
the idea of using grep over a simple text file on the computer
is much more attractive.

OK, that actually makes sense, I guess. If one is enough of a
mutant to be able to understand regular expressions.

https://xkcd.com/208/

or more realistically...

https://xkcd.com/1171/

--
------
columbiaclosings.com
What's not in Columbia anymore..

-dsr-

2018-08-27 18:23:51 UTC

Post by d***@gmail.com
I have a copy, under the title "The Compact of
Civilization" but the antagonist was Kendra Kendron (a
1-line mention in First Lensman) not Dessa Desplains (a
female zwilnick who features in a short sequence o several
scenes in FL).

Really? Kendra Kendron was REAL? I thought for sure I made her up.

I believe that you did, because her name is not in the least
bit familiar to me.

I have here a plaintext set of the books, plus Vortex Blaster;

Nice. How much did it set you back, and where?

I believe Project Gutenberg has them; some are restricted if you
are in the US rather than Canada.
I also make a habit of turning all the ebooks that I buy into
un-DRMed plaintext (specifically for searching) and epub (for reading).

I'm curious. Do you have an epub reader that doesn't have a full
text search feature?

Personally, the text search in my Nook is far from perfect, and
the idea of using grep over a simple text file on the computer
is much more attractive.

I have Terry killfiled, so I didn't see his query.

I expect all my epub readers have full text search, but frequently
I have questions like "How many Heinlein novels use the word 'spung'?"
and grep is much more suited for that than hand-loading each of them
and running search over and over again.

In the present case, grep over *.txt in the right directory was
what answered the question.

-dsr-

Robert Carnegie

2018-08-27 22:01:22 UTC

Post by d***@gmail.com
I have a copy, under the title "The Compact of
Civilization" but the antagonist was Kendra Kendron (a
1-line mention in First Lensman) not Dessa Desplains (a
female zwilnick who features in a short sequence o several
scenes in FL).

Really? Kendra Kendron was REAL? I thought for sure I made her up.

I believe that you did, because her name is not in the least
bit familiar to me.

I have here a plaintext set of the books, plus Vortex Blaster;

Nice. How much did it set you back, and where?

I believe Project Gutenberg has them; some are restricted if you
are in the US rather than Canada.
I also make a habit of turning all the ebooks that I buy into
un-DRMed plaintext (specifically for searching) and epub (for reading).

I'm curious. Do you have an epub reader that doesn't have a full
text search feature?

Personally, the text search in my Nook is far from perfect, and
the idea of using grep over a simple text file on the computer
is much more attractive.

I have Terry killfiled, so I didn't see his query.

fire=9; kill -$fire $( fgrep -c Terry | grep -v :0$ )

Deprecated? Back at ya.

Michael F. Stemper

2018-08-24 20:47:42 UTC

Post by d***@gmail.com
I have a copy, under the title "The Compact of Civilization" but the
antagonist was Kendra Kendron (a 1-line mention in First Lensman) not
Dessa Desplains (a female zwilnick who features in a short sequence o
several scenes in FL).

Really? Kendra Kendron was REAL? I thought for sure I made her up.

I believe that you did, because her name is not in the least bit
familiar to me.

I have here a plaintext set of the books, plus Vortex Blaster;

Nice. How much did it set you back, and where?

I believe Project Gutenberg has them; some are restricted if you
are in the US rather than Canada.

Yeah, it looks that way. Thanks, anyhow.

--
Michael F. Stemper
Psalm 94:3-6

Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

2018-08-25 14:03:48 UTC

Post by d***@gmail.com
I have a copy, under the title "The Compact of Civilization" but the
antagonist was Kendra Kendron (a 1-line mention in First Lensman) not
Dessa Desplains (a female zwilnick who features in a short sequence o
several scenes in FL).

Really? Kendra Kendron was REAL? I thought for sure I made her up.

I believe that you did, because her name is not in the least bit
familiar to me.

I have here a plaintext set of the books, plus Vortex Blaster; grep
does not report a match for Kendra or even Ken.

Whew. I was worried for a moment that there was a character whose name
I'd stolen without even REMEMBERING it. When I steal, I want to KNOW I'm
stealing. When I made her name it was a play on/modification of Kandron
(of Onlo).

--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org

Michael F. Stemper

2018-08-17 21:33:53 UTC

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Hal has just reminded me that _The Skylark of Space_ was actually
written *before* World War I. "Basically, a lot earlier than
people think."

Stephen Lucchetti says[1]:

1915:
"Collaboration with Lee Hawkins Garby on _The Skylark of Space_ begins."

This leaves open the possibility that he'd started on it independently
prior to collaborating with Garby, I suppose. However, according to
Moskowitz[2]:

"Smith's writing career started at a men's smoker in 1915. [...] She
[Lee Hawkins Garby] thought the idea was intriguing and urged Smith to
write a story based on it. [...] He was dubious [...] She suggested a
collaboration [...]"

I realize that Moskowitz is not noted for accuracy, but this is at least
consistent with Lucchetti, so it seems that TSoS wasn't even *started*
until after WWI had begun.

Back to Lucchetti:

1916:
"About 1/3 of _The Skylark of Space_ completed"

1919:
"Returns to work on _The Skylark of Space_"

1920:
"_The Skylark of Space_ completed."

It appears that the majority (2/3) of TSoS was written after the
Armistice.

[1] _Doc: First Galactic Roamer_, NESFA Press, (c) 2004
[2] _Seekers of Tomorrow_, Ballantine Science Fiction, (c) 1961-1967

--
Michael F. Stemper
Why doesn't anybody care about apathy?

Chrysi Cat

2018-08-18 00:40:43 UTC

On 8/17/2018 3:33 PM, Michael F. Stemper wrote:

<snip>

Post by Michael F. Stemper
I realize that Moskowitz is not noted for accuracy, but this is at least
consistent with Lucchetti, so it seems that TSoS wasn't even *started*
until after WWI had begun.
"About 1/3 of _The Skylark of Space_ completed"
"Returns to work on _The Skylark of Space_"
"_The Skylark of Space_ completed."
It appears that the majority (2/3) of TSoS was written after the
Armistice.
[1] _Doc: First Galactic Roamer_, NESFA Press, (c) 2004
[2] _Seekers of Tomorrow_, Ballantine Science Fiction, (c) 1961-1967

The second part I'll give you, it was mainly written post-Armistice. The
first part, being that Doc Smith was American, I won't. US mindsets in
1915-16 were still *well* in pre-war mode, and the country thought the
whole mess would stay just as overseas as the Franco-Prussian one had,
or the Russo-Japanese after it. Effectively, the book was commenced in a
pre-WWI atmosphere.

--
Chrysi Cat
1/2 anthrocat, nearly 1/2 anthrofox, all magical
Transgoddess, quick to anger
Call me Chrysi or call me Kat, I'll respond to either!

Robert Carnegie

2018-08-18 00:57:42 UTC

Post by d***@gmail.com
<snip>

Uh, wars do happen without you, sometimes.

Dorothy J Heydt

2018-08-18 01:18:45 UTC

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by d***@gmail.com
<snip>

Uh, wars do happen without you, sometimes.

Or used to, anyway.

And before World War I got into high gear, Ogden Nash wrote the
following:

The Frenches do not like the Germans,
Who calls them names in hymns and sermons.
The Germans do not like the Frenches,
Who wish to shoot at them from trenches.
Now anyone a German hates
He presently exterminates,
But he who exterminates a French
Is never safe from Gallic revench,
But he who gets even with a German
Is exterminated like a vermin,
And so it goes for ages and eons
Between these neighboring Europeans.
I hope that such perpetual motion
Stays where it started, across the ocean.

(Quoted from memory, but I bet I got it right.)

--
Dorothy J. Heydt
Vallejo, California
djheydt at gmail dot com
www.kithrup.com/~djheydt/

Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

2018-08-17 22:54:48 UTC

They are a product of their times, in which exciting pulp stories
were read by men, mostly very young men, for whom females were
attractive but frightening unknown territory.

Post by mimus99
Next up: The _ Lensman _ series.

I suppose those would be Jill Samms and Clarrissa McD, aka the "Red"
lensman. But what about Clio Costigan from _Triplanetary_ (and a minor
walk on role in _First Lensman_) I think she qualifies.
For those not developed into full people (which few males are in this
series either, character development is not its strong point) females
are strange mysterious beings to be admired and protected, not the
source of casual sexual gratification, at least.

As I recall, _Skylark Dequsne_ introduced a female foil for Blackie D
and had some interesting "witch" characters.

Yes, but she was very late in the series.

The Jelmi were all more detailed than their equivalents in earlier
books. Not surprising; _Skylark DuQuesne_ was published in 1965, almost
three decades since his last outing in that universe.

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
I just tried posting a reply to another post on this thread and
it wouldn't post, saying "Malformed Newsgroup line" or something
like that. I'll try again.

They are a product of their times, in which exciting pulp stories
were read by men, mostly very young men, for whom females were
attractive but frightening unknown territory.

Hal has just reminded me that _The Skylark of Space_ was actually
written *before* World War I. "Basically, a lot earlier than
people think."

No, during, not before. 1918. Not published until 1928, ten years later.

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Next up: The _ Lensman _ series.

I suppose those would be Jill Samms and Clarrissa McD, aka the "Red"
lensman. But what about Clio Costigan from _Triplanetary_ (and a minor
walk on role in _First Lensman_) I think she qualifies.
For those not developed into full people (which few males are in this
series either, character development is not its strong point) females
are strange mysterious beings to be admired and protected, not the
source of casual sexual gratification, at least.

Dessa Desplaines, the seven-sector callout of a zwilnik who survives
confrontation with Kimball Kinnison because it turns out her handlers
had lied to her badly.

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Sea Wasp, do you have on disk anywhere your majestic fanfic
wherein Clio trounces Dessa by means of her superior social and
fashion skills?

Not Dessa; she was a century or three in the future during the First
Lensman era. I made up an adversary.

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
If you don't, *I do,* and will happily post it if you give leave.

I'll post it as a separate response

I assume that they DID meet up -- maybe even it was Arranged. After the
Arisians were gone, because the CotL would have decided that there was
nothing wrong with having MORE L3s, only fractionally less capable than
themselves, to protect Civilization.

I do occasional fic, but to do justice to THAT I'd have to basically
write the Sequel of the Lens, and I don't have the jets to swing that
load, nor the time to do it unless I'm paid.

--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org

d***@gmail.com

2018-08-17 23:05:49 UTC

Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

Post by d***@gmail.com
For those not developed into full people (which few males are in this
series either, character development is not its strong point) females
are strange mysterious beings to be admired and protected, not the
source of casual sexual gratification, at least.

Dessa Desplaines, the seven-sector callout of a zwilnik who survives
confrontation with Kimball Kinnison because it turns out her handlers
had lied to her badly.

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Sea Wasp, do you have on disk anywhere your majestic fanfic
wherein Clio trounces Dessa by means of her superior social and
fashion skills?

Not Dessa; she was a century or three in the future during the First
Lensman era. I made up an adversary.

Ooops, my error, Dessa encounters the final Kinnison, the first second stage Lensman, in his youth. There was a very similar figure who encounters one of the early lensmen in FL, if I recall correctly.

-DES

Michael F. Stemper

2018-08-19 17:53:36 UTC

Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
Not Dessa; she was a century or three in the future during the First
Lensman era. I made up an adversary.

Are you thinking of Hazel "Hell-cat" DeForce, who encountered Jack
Kinnison and (to a lesser extent) Mason Northrup on Eridan?

--
Michael F. Stemper
What happens if you play John Cage's "4'33" at a slower tempo?

Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

2018-08-17 22:55:37 UTC

Per Dorothy's Request:

Clio stared. It was starkly, utterly unbelievable, but Miss Kendron --
she of the (probably) artificially golden hair and (possibly) enhanced
figure -- was wearing the *precise same outfit* as Clio herself. And the
brazen hussy was headed RIGHT FOR CONWAY!

Her eyes narrowed. All right, she thought. Bribed my dressmaker, did
you? We'll see what you've got. Not for nothing had she been raised in
the whirl of society, learning the arts of verbal thrust and
counter-thrust, mastering the tilt of the head that could bring strong
men to their knees. Her mother had well known what dangers lurked in the
glittering, deceptive beauty of corporate social life, and her
daughter's eyes narrowed before opening once more into the limpid pools
of innocence that concealed the lethal combatant within.

"Why, Kendra Kendron, dear! What an ASTONISHING coincidence!" she sang
out as she came in range. "The same dress! That was commissioned as a
unique original from Pierre DuPaul, I might add!"

Kendra's eyes sparkled back with the same guileless look in their azure
depths. "My goodness!" she twittered. "It's so... embarrassing for you,
dear!"

The two locked gazes for a moment. Conway Costigan did not know -- then
or ever -- what titanic forces were unleashed at that moment. He could
not see -- nor could any whose fashion sense was below the third level
of stress -- beyond the empty, light greetings, through the innocent and
harmless guise each wore. To him, the entire meeting was an almost
inconsequential encounter, albeit with a girl whose beauty and charm had
momentarily (and only momentarily, he was sure) distracted him from Clio.

But to Clio and Kendra -- each well aware of the other's skills -- the
glances instantly penetrated the disguse, showing the other as a warrior
of emotional combat fully their own equal. The razor-sharp intellect,
the immense and almost inconceivably vast knowledge of fashion in a
dozen countries, the casual tone of voice that could devastate an
opponent or lift up an ally -- all these and more were in their
arsenals. Kendra knew, in that moment, that Clio was willing to risk her
own destruction -- even to the point of utter humiliation in all else --
in order to keep Conway from her. And Clio knew, with equal certainty,
that Kendra was here to make sure that this never came to pass; she had
been instructed to capture Costigan's heart, and she was cold and
ruthless as Gray Roger himself; no ordinary force stood a chance of
stopping her.

For the most infinitesmal fraction of a second Clio was uncertain.
Kendra's force of fashion was more absolutely formidable than she could
have imagined. Should she tell one of the others? No, impossible. Jill
might -- probably would -- believe her. But Jill was not available. None
of Conway's friends would even understand. In fact, even to ask would
weaken her position. She would certainly fail.

Even as the thought occured to her, she dismissed it. In that instant,
Clio became fully what she had only before had the potential for being,
and for one moment the crystal-clear gaze hardened. Costigan could not
have seen it from his taller position, nor, had he seen it, could he
have understood what he saw.

But the force of that gaze struck Kendra like a blow; never had she
faced such an opponent -- why, even a few weeks ago Clio herself
couldn't have done this! Well it was for Civilization that Clio's mother
had raised her so well! Well indeed it was that Clio had learned those
lessons, and that she had been hardened to society conflict in a
thousand salons across the System! Kendra hesitated, and Clio bored in,
keeping the gaze locked, and turning ever so slightly. Kendra realized
what her intent was, and made her counter move -- just that fractional
second too late. Conway's gaze shifted, from Kendra to Clio, and Clio's
eyes, now once more as innocent and warm as the regard of a child,
captured his own.

To Conway, Kendra's sniff and goodbye barely registered, but to Clio it
was the sound of victory.

And on distant Arisia, Mentor gave a mental nod. "You were concerned,
Eukonidor. Yet our Visualization was sound. Though such
emotionally-fraught events are no longer something we of Arisia
participate in, still our Visualizations include them. It is true that
it was possible, though barely so, that Gharlane, having now some
concept of Arisia and our capacities, could have directly or through one
of his intermediaries intervened; yet he was already aware that we were
watching, and it was extremely unlikely he would choose to risk himself
when we could have equally simply energized our own forms of flesh to
counter his interference."

--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org

Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

2018-08-17 22:35:15 UTC

Post by mimus99
Goddam those books are bad.

I still love 'em, warts and all. Better than, say, Arcot, Wade, and Morey.

Post by mimus99
I think the worst part is the easy genocides and geocides.

"But they were all bad." -True Lies

Post by mimus99
Then the intellectuals don't come off too well either, compared to the real
red-blooded American he-men involved (although of course they're really
smart, too, especially compared to "the girls").

Richard Ballinger Seaton is as intellectual as they get, matched only
by Dr. Marc C. DuQuesne. And both of them get a lot of help from people
wiser than they (admittedly, DuQuesne does so with trickery).

Yeah, you couldn't do this stuff today, for multiple reasons, but they
were written to achieve a particular purpose, and they did so spectacularly.

--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.dreamwidth.org

m***@sky.com

2018-08-18 05:17:22 UTC

Marc DuQuesne is one of the great characters in Science Fiction. At the start of the stories he is apparently a stock villain with a sole redeeming feature - when he gives his word, he keeps it. At the conclusion he saves the universe and walks off into the sunset in wedded bliss (albeit an Imperial sunset, under Emperor Marc I). I think this transition is worthy of notice, even if only to decide if it was planned from the outset or not.

For anybody who has never heard of Marc DuQuesne (despite the sterling work of Sea Wasp) or who has been distracted by the spectacle of whole intelligent species living or dying at the speed of a quick-draw gunfight I think it is worth reading or re-reading the books just to concentrate on Marc DuQuesne. Also, you get to find out why "DuQuesne calling Seaton reply as before" is one of the great examples of sheer bare-faced gall.

E.E.Smith tended to clear the scene for a new story by giving both the heroes and the new villains massively improved technology - and many Science Fiction stories have had to explain away massive leaps forward in technology. For the Skylark stories, Smith invented the Norlaminians - a scientifically advanced race without the physical recklessness and adventurousness of Seaton and DuQuesne. Technology advances through exchange of information between species with diverse strengths. I think this is an interesting way to refresh the stories. I don't think it is necessarily an example of anti-intellectualism. Norlaminians have a high culture, including physical sports. It is remarkably ordered, but that order does not seem to be compelled - there is every sign that the Norlaminians find their lives satisfying.

Juho Julkunen

2018-08-18 13:33:18 UTC

Post by m***@sky.com

Marc DuQuesne is one of the great characters in Science Fiction.

Agreed. He's one of the most frighteningly competent villains I've ever
come across. He's smart, fearless, ruthless, and, unlike so many of his
peers, free of foolish pride.

An instance that has stuck in my memory is when DuQuesne is evaluating
his shooting skills against Seaton's. He concludes that he'd lose a
head-to-head confrontation because Seaton is better and decides to send
an ambush instead. Not many villains are that coldly realistic about
their own abilities.

One thing I will hold against him is his fixation on cornering the
Earth's energy market way past the point of rationality. He should have
realized Earth was too small a pond to obsess over much sooner.

--
Juho Julkunen

Ahasuerus

2018-08-20 14:55:53 UTC

Post by m***@sky.com

Post by mimus99
Goddam those books are bad.
I think the worst part is the easy genocides and geocides.
Then the intellectuals don't come off too well either, compared
to the real red-blooded American he-men involved (although of
course they're really smart, too, especially compared to "the girls").
Next up: The _ Lensman _ series.

If Gharlane of Eddore was the villain that we loved to hate, Marc
DuQuesne was the villain that we hated to love.

Mike Van Pelt

2018-08-21 22:23:40 UTC