Post by Mitch ToddPost by Robert HarrisRecently, I've seen some of the most ludicrous
"theories" about why Mrs. Kennedy rose from her
seat and reached back across the trunk.
This article confirms that Clint Hill was
correct. Jackie reached back across the trunk to
recover a piece of brain tissue that she saw
blown to the rear by a second head shot.
You can see that happen in both the Zapruder and
http://jfkhistory.com/jackie.gif
http://jfkhistory.com/pix/jackienix.gif
And this article explains how both of the
Connallys heard her say immediately, after
sitting back down, that she had her husband's
brains in her hand.
She carried that tissue all the way to Parkland,
where she turned it over to Dr. Jenkins.
http://jfkhistory.com/jackie/Jackie.html
You tried to foist this off on us a few weeks ago, I
swatted it down, and you immediately disappeared from
the fray. I guess you thing that we forgot. I didn't.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but you seem to be referring to a post I made 2
months ago, which you replied to over three weeks later.
I usually only spend a week or two in a thread unless something
interesting is going on.
Aha. The old freshness-date defense. Works for
supermarkets, but not quite as effective on
usenet.
Post by Mitch ToddAnyway, your article rests on three assertions.
The first is that the Zapruder film shows Jackie
grabbing something off of the trunk.
Yes, that is also true of the Nix film.
Post by Mitch ToddThe second is that Clint Hill testified
that she was "reaching for something coming off
the right rear bumper of the car, the right rear
tail." The third is Mrs Kennedy's well-attested
cry, "They have killed my husband. I have his
brains in my hand."
None of these prove anything.
LOL!!
This is gonna be good.
I guess Clint Hill was just delusional that day. Why should we believe
Hill who was only inches from her at the time, when we have a nutter
fanatic like you?
Like I said, he didn't say that she grabbed anything,
but just reached for something that was coming off
of he rear of the car. The only delusional person in
this is you as you try to force yourself roughly on
Hill's statement.
Post by Mitch ToddIn fact, the first two argue *against* your conclusion.
Well, that's two consecutive blurtations. Let's see if they are the last.
Post by Mitch ToddFirst: The Zapruder film shows that when she hits the
trunk, she lands on her left forearm and her right
hand.
Yes. That is correct.
To be specific, her right hand hits the rear deck in
frame 366. After that, she slides it across the trunklid
to the rear until frame 380. Then she pulls it back
and uses it to help push herself back into the back
seat. her fingers are still flat against the trunklid
as late as frame 386, if not later (the frames between
286 and 394 are blurry, so it's hard to tell)
Post by Mitch ToddShe's not picking anything up with her forearm,
and her right hand lands palm down with her fingers
stretched out and flat on the sheetmetal. No one >> grabs anything
That is incorrect.
She wasn't grabbing a baseball. She was grabbing brain tissue.
Think Jello.
I've grabbed plenty of Jello in my life. I've always used
my fingers. Slapping your palm down on the stuff completely
fails to grab it, and also makes a mess.
She obviously, did not pick it up immediately. She just kept it under
her hand. She could only pick it up with her fingers. You can see that
happen at frame 392.
http://jfkhistory.com/392.png
She was not supporting herself with her right hand at that instant. If
she was, she would have had the heal of her hand down.
So why would her fingers be in that position?
So, your argument rests on what you claim to
see in a grainy enlargement of a blurry frame
where Jackie's right hand is a featureless,
shadow blob in the image. But you somehow
can tell what her fingers are doing using your
Kryptonian x-ray vision. I hope you're not
expecting anyone else to believe you.
Post by Mitch Toddthat way. On the other side of the coin, no chunks of
flesh are visible on the trunk in the Zapruder film,
We see virtually no tissue ANYWHERE in the Zapruder film. Now, you can
either sign up with team Fetzer or acknowledge that Zapruder's camera
just couldn't pick up that kind of detail.
There is no doubt that tissue was found all over the limo, including the
trunk.
The thing is, you've asserted that she saw it
fly out, and clambered out over the trunklid
to retrieve it. For that to happen, it had to be
large enough for her to see it, notice it, and
know immediately it was important enough to go
out and get. It had to be fairly large, larger than
the other scraps of flesh that she ignored to
go for that one. How would a piece that large
not be visible somehow the film.
"We found blood and tissue all over the outside areas of the vehicle
from the hood ornament, over the complete area of the hood, on the
outside of the windshield, also on the inside surface of the windshield,
and all over the entire exterior portion of the car, that is, the side
rails down both sides of the car, and of course considerable quantities
inside the car and on the trunk lid area."
Clint Hill also stated that he was spattered by tissue and blood, as did
motorcyble officer Hargis, who described being struck with such force
that he thought he might have been hit by a bullet.
You are correct. Now, how about telling us, how large
were those pieces that they found on the trunklid.
And how large, do you suppose, would a chunk of brain
have to be for Jackie Kennedy to launch herself onto
the trunk of a moving car to retrieve?
Post by Mitch Toddeven in
the clearest frames. If Jackie is trying to grab
something laying on the trunk lid, where is it?
It was under her hand and then in it.
In other words, neither you nor anyone else ever
saw her grab anything in film, or in real life.
All you have left is to assert it and hope the
rest of us don't look carefully at what you're
trying to put over.
Post by Mitch ToddSecond: Look carefully at Clint Hill's description of
the scene. She was "reaching for something." Not
"grabbing"
or "grasping" or "holding" or anything like that.
Just
"reaching for." While it's generally advisable to
reach
before grasping, reaching without grabbing is not
grabbing,
not is it grasping, ipso facto.
LOL!!
To be "reaching for something" = trying grab it.
And that's exactly what she did.
Again, trying to grab isn't grabbing. In fact,
trying to grab" is a staple of sports blooper
reels.
Post by Mitch ToddSimilarly, consider his "something coming off of
the rear bumper of the car>> car, the right rear tail." In
particular, the phrase
Post by Mitch Todd"coming off of." Whatever the "something" was, it >> made a compleat Elvis of itself and left the>> proverbial building
in Hill's account.
More blurtations. Surprise, surprise:-)
There was a LOT of stuff back there and he was obviously mistaken about
which one she was going for.
Like us, he didn't see her immediately pick it up, so it was perfectly
natural that he thought she missed whatever she was trying to retrieve.
Again, how big was "all that stuff?" And why did he
think it was something falling off of the car if
there was so much easily-identifiable stuff on the
trunk?
Post by Mitch ToddThe "something" is no longer on the trunk lid for
her to
grab. And it's not just coming off of the limo.
Hill is more
specific than that; he has it coming off of "the
right rear
bumper...the right rear tail." Not just the right
tail. Not
just the right rear of the car, but the "right
rear tail,"
and at the bumper, to boot. Her hand never gets as
far as
the handles welded to the trunk lid. She just
didn't get to
where Hill put that "something" in the first place.
You seem to think that if you repeat the same argument enough times, it
will come true.
I'll take that as a high compliment from you,
given your own habits. High praise, indeed!
What she grabbed or failed to grab, had to have been the very last thing
that Hill was worried about.
And at that instant, he only saw her hand flat on the trunk's surface.
His error was predictable.
You've basically just admitted that Hill, your prime
witness, say he didn't see her grab anything. You're
still the gift that keeps on giving!
Having made a career out of telling us how unreliable witnesses are, I'm
sure you can wrap your head around that concept:-)
And now you assert that Hill is an unreliable witness.
I'm gonna start calling you Santa Claus if you keep this
up!
Post by Mitch ToddAnd I should talk about that "something" of Hill's It
should be right in front of him. How does he not
have any
idea what it was? Unless, of course, he didn't
actually
see it but inferred it's existence from watching
what he
thought Jackie was doing. And if he didn't see it,
how can
you argue that it was there in the first place?
We already know there was all kinds of blood and tissue back there. The
FBI confirmed that fact.
Yep, but in what form, and in what sizes? For
that matter, why didn't Hill say that Mrs. K
was "trying to get one of those pieces of brain
scattered all over the trunk" if that were the
case? I'll bet the stuff left on the trunk was
mostly blood with tiny bits here and there. Not
something that would have attracted Jackie's
attention on the spur of the moment.
Post by Mitch ToddThird: The should be little doubt that Jackie was
holding
some loose piece of brain tissue by the time she
got to
Parkland. The problem for you is, that fact
doesn't tell us
exactly where she got it from. As the Connnally's
remember,
and as the later forensic examinations of the
limousine
make clear, the interior was spattered with
various and
sundry bits of JFK's mortal remains.
Unfortunately, Jackie
had a lot to choose from, and there is no way of
knowing
which one it was, or where she found it.
Fortunately however, we know WHEN she got it. Nellie heard her say she
had her husband's brains in her hand - "several times".
(quote)
...and then after the third shot she said, "they have killed my husband.
I have his brains in my hand" and she repeated that several times
(unquote)
But John Connally only heard it once.
"I heard her say one time, 'I have got his brains in my hand.'"
So, why did he only hear it once? The answer is simple.
"At about that time, we began to pull out of the cavalcade, out of the
line, and I lost consciousness and didn't regain consciousness until we
got to the hospital"
From the time Jackie sat down to the time the limo started to pull "out
of line" to the right, was no more than 3 seconds.
She just didn't have time to find a piece of tissue, pick it up and then
make that statement.
Also, consider the fact that she said "they have killed my husband".
That is not something she would have said 2 minutes later. She had
obviously, just discovered that his head was blown apart.
These statements could only have come immediately, after she sat back down.
Let's go back to what Governor Connally said. Here it is, including the
stuff you left out:
"When [Nellie] pulled me over into her lap, she could tell I was still
breathing and moving, and she said, "Don't worry, Be quiet. You are going
to be all right." She Just kept telling me I was going to be all right.
After the third shot, and I heard Roy Kellerman tell the driver, "Bill,
get out of line." And then I saw him move, and I assumed he was moving a
button or something on the panel of the automobile, and he said, "Get us
to a hospital quick." I assumed he was saying this to the patrolman, the
motorcycle police who were leading us. At about that time, we began to
pull out of the cavalcade, out of the line, and I lost consciousness and
didn't regain consciousness until we got to the hospital."
So, a lot more is going on in this time than you let on. He remembered
Nellie telling him that he was going to be all right a number of times.
More than a couple or a few, based on the phrase "kept telling me." And he
was able to pick out Kellerman talking to Greer, so a lot happened between
the third shot and when his memory blanked out. More than you seem to want
to admit.
Also, consider his memory of what he heard Mrs Kennedy say:
Mr. SPECTER. Did Mrs. Kennedy state anything at that time?
Governor CONNALLY. Yes; I have to--I would say it was after the
third shot when she said, "They have killed my husband."
Mr. SPECTER. Did she say anything more?
Governor CONNALLY. Yes; she said, I heard her say one time, "I
have got his brains in my hand."
The placement of "I heard her say one time" is interesting.
It sets "I have got his brains in my hand" off from "They
have killed my husband," just like one might say if Jackie
repeated "they have killed my husband" some number of times
before saying "I have his brains in my hand." A lot like
what Nellie reported. And indicative that Connally remained
conscious longer than you wanna think.
While I'm at it, have you ever considered what he meant by
"pull out of the line?" At the time, Connally was on the floor
between the front seat and the jump seats with his wife on
top of him, so he can't see what was going on. What if he
meant the turn onto the Stemmons on ramp? That's the first
major direction change they would have made, and I doubt
that Connally knew enough detail about either the intended
motorcade route (or visited Dallas enough that he knew the
particulars of Dallas' roadway grid) to have instantly
recognized the route. Enough for Jackie to be back in her seat
and pick up one of the myriad bits of her husband and
lament.
To top it off, I've already pointed out, based on my own
experiences, that the anesthesia you get for a thorachotomy
is prone to screwing with your ability to hold on to
memories during the hours before surgery. Connally had
blood loss and the shock of being shot to compound the
issue. Do you really expect him to be second-by-second
accurate as to when he lost consciousness?
