Can something be "lost" if it is being exhibited in a gallery?

[occam]

A BBC News story about a rediscovered masterpiece says:

"A "lost" portrait by Flemish artist Peter Paul Rubens has been
rediscovered after almost 400 years.
<snip>
It was in Glasgow Museums' collection and on public display at the
city's Pollok House stately home. "

Is there no better word than "lost" here? (I understand the quotes
imply it was not really lost, just "lost".)

Clearly someone, somewhere 'lost track of' the painting. By all accounts
the true significance of the painting was forgotten. But to link
"forget" with "to lose" is a big step. If I forget a friend's name, have
I "lost" him?

Full story:
http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-41373007

[Horace LaBadie]

Post by occam
"A "lost" portrait by Flemish artist Peter Paul Rubens has been
rediscovered after almost 400 years.
<snip>
It was in Glasgow Museums' collection and on public display at the
city's Pollok House stately home. "
Is there no better word than "lost" here? (I understand the quotes
imply it was not really lost, just "lost".)
Clearly someone, somewhere 'lost track of' the painting. By all accounts
the true significance of the painting was forgotten. But to link
"forget" with "to lose" is a big step. If I forget a friend's name, have
I "lost" him?
http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-41373007

Do you have a similar problem with "lost" cities in Mesoamerica? They
didn't go anywhere. They were forgotten and overgrown.

If I forgot where I left my keys, they are lost to me, even if they are
in my house.

[occam]

Post by Horace LaBadie

Post by occam
"A "lost" portrait by Flemish artist Peter Paul Rubens has been
rediscovered after almost 400 years.
<snip>
It was in Glasgow Museums' collection and on public display at the
city's Pollok House stately home. "
Is there no better word than "lost" here? (I understand the quotes
imply it was not really lost, just "lost".)
Clearly someone, somewhere 'lost track of' the painting. By all accounts
the true significance of the painting was forgotten. But to link
"forget" with "to lose" is a big step. If I forget a friend's name, have
I "lost" him?
http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-41373007

Do you have a similar problem with "lost" cities in Mesoamerica? They
didn't go anywhere. They were forgotten and overgrown.

No I don't. In the case of "lost" cities, the location is unknown.
Similarly with your keys. In the case of the painting - it is hanging
there, in the gallery, for everyone to see. We can see it, but do not
know its significance.

Post by Horace LaBadie
If I forgot where I left my keys, they are lost to me, even if they are
in my house.

[Katy Jennison]

Post by occam

Post by Horace LaBadie

Post by occam
"A "lost" portrait by Flemish artist Peter Paul Rubens has been
rediscovered after almost 400 years.
<snip>
It was in Glasgow Museums' collection and on public display at the
city's Pollok House stately home. "
Is there no better word than "lost" here? (I understand the quotes
imply it was not really lost, just "lost".)
Clearly someone, somewhere 'lost track of' the painting. By all accounts
the true significance of the painting was forgotten. But to link
"forget" with "to lose" is a big step. If I forget a friend's name, have
I "lost" him?
http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-41373007

Do you have a similar problem with "lost" cities in Mesoamerica? They
didn't go anywhere. They were forgotten and overgrown.

No I don't. In the case of "lost" cities, the location is unknown.
Similarly with your keys. In the case of the painting - it is hanging
there, in the gallery, for everyone to see. We can see it, but do not
know its significance.

Post by Horace LaBadie
If I forgot where I left my keys, they are lost to me, even if they are
in my house.

Perhaps "overlooked" is the word you want.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sun, 24 Sep 2017 17:54:21 +0100, Katy Jennison

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by occam

Post by Horace LaBadie

Post by occam
"A "lost" portrait by Flemish artist Peter Paul Rubens has been
rediscovered after almost 400 years.
<snip>
It was in Glasgow Museums' collection and on public display at the
city's Pollok House stately home. "
Is there no better word than "lost" here? (I understand the quotes
imply it was not really lost, just "lost".)
Clearly someone, somewhere 'lost track of' the painting. By all accounts
the true significance of the painting was forgotten. But to link
"forget" with "to lose" is a big step. If I forget a friend's name, have
I "lost" him?
http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-41373007

Do you have a similar problem with "lost" cities in Mesoamerica? They
didn't go anywhere. They were forgotten and overgrown.

No I don't. In the case of "lost" cities, the location is unknown.
Similarly with your keys. In the case of the painting - it is hanging
there, in the gallery, for everyone to see. We can see it, but do not
know its significance.

Post by Horace LaBadie
If I forgot where I left my keys, they are lost to me, even if they are
in my house.

Perhaps "overlooked" is the word you want.

It seems to have been "unrecognised"; mistaken for something else.

[occam]

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sun, 24 Sep 2017 17:54:21 +0100, Katy Jennison

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by occam

Post by Horace LaBadie

Post by occam
"A "lost" portrait by Flemish artist Peter Paul Rubens has been
rediscovered after almost 400 years.
<snip>
It was in Glasgow Museums' collection and on public display at the
city's Pollok House stately home. "
Is there no better word than "lost" here? (I understand the quotes
imply it was not really lost, just "lost".)
Clearly someone, somewhere 'lost track of' the painting. By all accounts
the true significance of the painting was forgotten. But to link
"forget" with "to lose" is a big step. If I forget a friend's name, have
I "lost" him?
http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-41373007

Do you have a similar problem with "lost" cities in Mesoamerica? They
didn't go anywhere. They were forgotten and overgrown.

No I don't. In the case of "lost" cities, the location is unknown.
Similarly with your keys. In the case of the painting - it is hanging
there, in the gallery, for everyone to see. We can see it, but do not
know its significance.

Post by Horace LaBadie
If I forgot where I left my keys, they are lost to me, even if they are
in my house.

Perhaps "overlooked" is the word you want.

It seems to have been "unrecognised"; mistaken for something else.

In perceptual science there is the well-know phenomenon called 'change
blindness'. Something major changes in the field of a subject and
he/she fails to register this change. (I have seen experiments where a
shop assistant (A) goes down behind the counter on some pretext, and a
different shop assistant (B) emerges - without drawing any
comment/surprise from the customer, who happily continues with the
conversation.)


What I did not realise is that is also something called 'inattentional
blindness' where the opposite can happen. The subject fails to notice
the existence of an unexpected item.

I'm tempted to think what has happened to the "lost" painting is a form
of 'inattentional blindness', assuming it was under the care of the
Museum for 400 years. Maybe.

[Mack A. Damia]

Post by occam

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sun, 24 Sep 2017 17:54:21 +0100, Katy Jennison

Post by Katy Jennison

Post by occam

Post by Horace LaBadie

Post by occam
"A "lost" portrait by Flemish artist Peter Paul Rubens has been
rediscovered after almost 400 years.
<snip>
It was in Glasgow Museums' collection and on public display at the
city's Pollok House stately home. "
Is there no better word than "lost" here? (I understand the quotes
imply it was not really lost, just "lost".)
Clearly someone, somewhere 'lost track of' the painting. By all accounts
the true significance of the painting was forgotten. But to link
"forget" with "to lose" is a big step. If I forget a friend's name, have
I "lost" him?
http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-41373007

Do you have a similar problem with "lost" cities in Mesoamerica? They
didn't go anywhere. They were forgotten and overgrown.

No I don't. In the case of "lost" cities, the location is unknown.
Similarly with your keys. In the case of the painting - it is hanging
there, in the gallery, for everyone to see. We can see it, but do not
know its significance.

Post by Horace LaBadie
If I forgot where I left my keys, they are lost to me, even if they are
in my house.

Perhaps "overlooked" is the word you want.

It seems to have been "unrecognised"; mistaken for something else.

In perceptual science there is the well-know phenomenon called 'change
blindness'. Something major changes in the field of a subject and
he/she fails to register this change. (I have seen experiments where a
shop assistant (A) goes down behind the counter on some pretext, and a
different shop assistant (B) emerges - without drawing any
comment/surprise from the customer, who happily continues with the
conversation.)

(Aside) Just reminded me. You have to be careful in Mexico when you
pay with large bills.

You might give the clerk a $100.00 bill, and he disappears. He comes
back quickly with a counterfeit bill and claims you gave it to him. He
refuses to take it. What are you going to do?

You have to insist from the outset that he makes change immediately,
and you don't take your eyes off the bill you gave him.

Post by occam
What I did not realise is that is also something called 'inattentional
blindness' where the opposite can happen. The subject fails to notice
the existence of an unexpected item.
I'm tempted to think what has happened to the "lost" painting is a form
of 'inattentional blindness', assuming it was under the care of the
Museum for 400 years. Maybe.

[Don Phillipson]

Post by occam
"A "lost" portrait by Flemish artist Peter Paul Rubens has been
rediscovered after almost 400 years.
<snip>
It was in Glasgow Museums' collection and on public display at the
city's Pollok House stately home. "
Is there no better word than "lost" here? (I understand the quotes
imply it was not really lost, just "lost".)

. . .

Post by occam
What I did not realise is that is also something called 'inattentional
blindness' where the opposite can happen. The subject fails to notice
the existence of an unexpected item.
I'm tempted to think what has happened to the "lost" painting is a form
of 'inattentional blindness', assuming it was under the care of the
Museum for 400 years. Maybe.

The phenomenological explanation is supererogatory. The topic here is
linguistic and literary, not psychological. The original literary sanction
is the parable of the Prodigal Son: "he was lost and is found." (NB verb
tenses.)

[Horace LaBadie]

Post by occam

Post by Horace LaBadie

Post by occam
"A "lost" portrait by Flemish artist Peter Paul Rubens has been
rediscovered after almost 400 years.
<snip>
It was in Glasgow Museums' collection and on public display at the
city's Pollok House stately home. "
Is there no better word than "lost" here? (I understand the quotes
imply it was not really lost, just "lost".)
Clearly someone, somewhere 'lost track of' the painting. By all accounts
the true significance of the painting was forgotten. But to link
"forget" with "to lose" is a big step. If I forget a friend's name, have
I "lost" him?
http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-41373007

Do you have a similar problem with "lost" cities in Mesoamerica? They
didn't go anywhere. They were forgotten and overgrown.

No I don't. In the case of "lost" cities, the location is unknown.
Similarly with your keys. In the case of the painting - it is hanging
there, in the gallery, for everyone to see. We can see it, but do not
know its significance.

Often the lost cities are known by locals.

According to the article, the painting had undergone significant
overpainting and was so very dirty that it was thought to be a copy of a
Rubens. If the painting was obscured to that degree, it is not different
from a lost city that has become obscured by overgrowth of jungle.

Post by occam

Post by Horace LaBadie
If I forgot where I left my keys, they are lost to me, even if they are
in my house.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Horace LaBadie

Post by occam
No I don't. In the case of "lost" cities, the location is unknown.
Similarly with your keys. In the case of the painting - it is hanging
there, in the gallery, for everyone to see. We can see it, but do not
know its significance.

Often the lost cities are known by locals.

When I was a teenager my father took me to the ghost town of Whroo.
Whroo had a population of about 10,000 in the gold rush days, but the
population eventually dwindled down to zero. When we visited, it was
possible -- but only by very careful searching -- to find a small number
of straight lines on the ground that must have been the location of
building foundations. Apart from that, there was nothing but trees.
There was no other sign that anyone had ever lived there.

My father knew about it because he grew up on a farm only 2 to 3 km
away. Presumably there were other locals who also knew about it, but
apparently not many. Most people, even those in the nearby small town,
either didn't know about it or didn't know where it was.

Eventually the local historians tracked it down, and even found a
well-hidden cemetery in the bush, so there's now a tourist office there.

[Ross]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Horace LaBadie

Post by occam
No I don't. In the case of "lost" cities, the location is unknown.
Similarly with your keys. In the case of the painting - it is hanging
there, in the gallery, for everyone to see. We can see it, but do not
know its significance.

Often the lost cities are known by locals.

When I was a teenager my father took me to the ghost town of Whroo.
Whroo had a population of about 10,000 in the gold rush days, but the
population eventually dwindled down to zero. When we visited, it was
possible -- but only by very careful searching -- to find a small number
of straight lines on the ground that must have been the location of
building foundations. Apart from that, there was nothing but trees.
There was no other sign that anyone had ever lived there.
My father knew about it because he grew up on a farm only 2 to 3 km
away. Presumably there were other locals who also knew about it, but
apparently not many. Most people, even those in the nearby small town,
either didn't know about it or didn't know where it was.
Eventually the local historians tracked it down, and even found a
well-hidden cemetery in the bush, so there's now a tourist office there.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia

So how do you pronounce it?
(or is that ghost pronunciation?)

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Ross

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Horace LaBadie

Post by occam
No I don't. In the case of "lost" cities, the location is unknown.
Similarly with your keys. In the case of the painting - it is hanging
there, in the gallery, for everyone to see. We can see it, but do not
know its significance.

Often the lost cities are known by locals.

When I was a teenager my father took me to the ghost town of Whroo.
Whroo had a population of about 10,000 in the gold rush days, but the
population eventually dwindled down to zero. When we visited, it was
possible -- but only by very careful searching -- to find a small number
of straight lines on the ground that must have been the location of
building foundations. Apart from that, there was nothing but trees.
There was no other sign that anyone had ever lived there.
My father knew about it because he grew up on a farm only 2 to 3 km
away. Presumably there were other locals who also knew about it, but
apparently not many. Most people, even those in the nearby small town,
either didn't know about it or didn't know where it was.
Eventually the local historians tracked it down, and even found a
well-hidden cemetery in the bush, so there's now a tourist office there.

So how do you pronounce it?
(or is that ghost pronunciation?)

It's pronounced the same as "roo". The name is thought to be an
aboriginal word meaning something like "lips", and is supposedly a
reference to a water hole in the rocks that was used by the local tribe.
The water hole itself is not easy to find, but I've seen it.

[Ross]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Ross

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Horace LaBadie

Post by occam
No I don't. In the case of "lost" cities, the location is unknown.
Similarly with your keys. In the case of the painting - it is hanging
there, in the gallery, for everyone to see. We can see it, but do not
know its significance.

Often the lost cities are known by locals.

When I was a teenager my father took me to the ghost town of Whroo.
Whroo had a population of about 10,000 in the gold rush days, but the
population eventually dwindled down to zero. When we visited, it was
possible -- but only by very careful searching -- to find a small number
of straight lines on the ground that must have been the location of
building foundations. Apart from that, there was nothing but trees.
There was no other sign that anyone had ever lived there.
My father knew about it because he grew up on a farm only 2 to 3 km
away. Presumably there were other locals who also knew about it, but
apparently not many. Most people, even those in the nearby small town,
either didn't know about it or didn't know where it was.
Eventually the local historians tracked it down, and even found a
well-hidden cemetery in the bush, so there's now a tourist office there.

So how do you pronounce it?
(or is that ghost pronunciation?)

It's pronounced the same as "roo". The name is thought to be an
aboriginal word meaning something like "lips", and is supposedly a
reference to a water hole in the rocks that was used by the local tribe.
The water hole itself is not easy to find, but I've seen it.

Still a weird spelling. I'd like to know what sound they thought they
were representing with <whr>.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Ross

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Ross

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Horace LaBadie

Post by occam
No I don't. In the case of "lost" cities, the location is unknown.
Similarly with your keys. In the case of the painting - it is hanging
there, in the gallery, for everyone to see. We can see it, but do not
know its significance.

Often the lost cities are known by locals.

When I was a teenager my father took me to the ghost town of Whroo.
Whroo had a population of about 10,000 in the gold rush days, but the
population eventually dwindled down to zero. When we visited, it was
possible -- but only by very careful searching -- to find a small number
of straight lines on the ground that must have been the location of
building foundations. Apart from that, there was nothing but trees.
There was no other sign that anyone had ever lived there.
My father knew about it because he grew up on a farm only 2 to 3 km
away. Presumably there were other locals who also knew about it, but
apparently not many. Most people, even those in the nearby small town,
either didn't know about it or didn't know where it was.
Eventually the local historians tracked it down, and even found a
well-hidden cemetery in the bush, so there's now a tourist office there.

So how do you pronounce it?
(or is that ghost pronunciation?)

It's pronounced the same as "roo". The name is thought to be an
aboriginal word meaning something like "lips", and is supposedly a
reference to a water hole in the rocks that was used by the local tribe.
The water hole itself is not easy to find, but I've seen it.

Still a weird spelling. I'd like to know what sound they thought they
were representing with <whr>.

Voiceless trilled r?

[Dingbat]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Ross

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Ross

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Horace LaBadie

Post by occam
No I don't. In the case of "lost" cities, the location is unknown.
Similarly with your keys. In the case of the painting - it is hanging
there, in the gallery, for everyone to see. We can see it, but do not
know its significance.

Often the lost cities are known by locals.

When I was a teenager my father took me to the ghost town of Whroo.
Whroo had a population of about 10,000 in the gold rush days, but the
population eventually dwindled down to zero. When we visited, it was
possible -- but only by very careful searching -- to find a small number
of straight lines on the ground that must have been the location of
building foundations. Apart from that, there was nothing but trees.
There was no other sign that anyone had ever lived there.
My father knew about it because he grew up on a farm only 2 to 3 km
away. Presumably there were other locals who also knew about it, but
apparently not many. Most people, even those in the nearby small town,
either didn't know about it or didn't know where it was.
Eventually the local historians tracked it down, and even found a
well-hidden cemetery in the bush, so there's now a tourist office there.

So how do you pronounce it?
(or is that ghost pronunciation?)

It's pronounced the same as "roo". The name is thought to be an
aboriginal word meaning something like "lips", and is supposedly a
reference to a water hole in the rocks that was used by the local tribe.
The water hole itself is not easy to find, but I've seen it.

Still a weird spelling. I'd like to know what sound they thought they
were representing with <whr>.

Voiceless trilled r?

How was <rh> pronounced in Greek?

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Ross

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Ross

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Horace LaBadie

Post by occam
No I don't. In the case of "lost" cities, the location is unknown.
Similarly with your keys. In the case of the painting - it is hanging
there, in the gallery, for everyone to see. We can see it, but do not
know its significance.

Often the lost cities are known by locals.

When I was a teenager my father took me to the ghost town of Whroo.
Whroo had a population of about 10,000 in the gold rush days, but the
population eventually dwindled down to zero. When we visited, it was
possible -- but only by very careful searching -- to find a small number
of straight lines on the ground that must have been the location of
building foundations. Apart from that, there was nothing but trees.
There was no other sign that anyone had ever lived there.
My father knew about it because he grew up on a farm only 2 to 3 km
away. Presumably there were other locals who also knew about it, but
apparently not many. Most people, even those in the nearby small town,
either didn't know about it or didn't know where it was.
Eventually the local historians tracked it down, and even found a
well-hidden cemetery in the bush, so there's now a tourist office there.

So how do you pronounce it?
(or is that ghost pronunciation?)

It's pronounced the same as "roo". The name is thought to be an
aboriginal word meaning something like "lips", and is supposedly a
reference to a water hole in the rocks that was used by the local tribe.
The water hole itself is not easy to find, but I've seen it.

Still a weird spelling. I'd like to know what sound they thought they
were representing with <whr>.

The Dja Dja Wurrung language is extinct. The only information I could
find about the sounds in the language is at

<URL:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djadjawurrung_language>

which lists w as a labial approximant but leaves it at that, with no
further detail. There's no mention of h. That web page refers to a
longish document "Dialects of Western Kulin, Western Victoria
Yartwatjali, Tjapwurrung, Djadjawurrung" which I have not read except to
look at the section on consonants. The author of that uses an appended
"h" to indicate a palatal version of a dental consonant, but doesn't say
what it would mean after "w". If I had to guess, I might guess that it
means aspiration, in which case "wh" might sound like a Maaori "wh".
But, given that those languages are unrelated, that could be a very wild
guess. There is also the fact that an "f" sound doesn't appear to occur
in Australian languages -- or, at least, that's my non-expert impression.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Ross

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Ross

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Horace LaBadie

Post by occam
No I don't. In the case of "lost" cities, the location is unknown.
Similarly with your keys. In the case of the painting - it is hanging
there, in the gallery, for everyone to see. We can see it, but do not
know its significance.

Often the lost cities are known by locals.

When I was a teenager my father took me to the ghost town of Whroo.
Whroo had a population of about 10,000 in the gold rush days, but the
population eventually dwindled down to zero. When we visited, it was
possible -- but only by very careful searching -- to find a small number
of straight lines on the ground that must have been the location of
building foundations. Apart from that, there was nothing but trees.
There was no other sign that anyone had ever lived there.
My father knew about it because he grew up on a farm only 2 to 3 km
away. Presumably there were other locals who also knew about it, but
apparently not many. Most people, even those in the nearby small town,
either didn't know about it or didn't know where it was.
Eventually the local historians tracked it down, and even found a
well-hidden cemetery in the bush, so there's now a tourist office there.

So how do you pronounce it?
(or is that ghost pronunciation?)

It's pronounced the same as "roo". The name is thought to be an
aboriginal word meaning something like "lips", and is supposedly a
reference to a water hole in the rocks that was used by the local tribe.
The water hole itself is not easy to find, but I've seen it.

Still a weird spelling. I'd like to know what sound they thought they
were representing with <whr>.

The Dja Dja Wurrung language is extinct. The only information I could
find about the sounds in the language is at
<URL:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djadjawurrung_language>
which lists w as a labial approximant but leaves it at that, with no
further detail. There's no mention of h. That web page refers to a
longish document "Dialects of Western Kulin, Western Victoria
Yartwatjali, Tjapwurrung, Djadjawurrung" which I have not read except to
look at the section on consonants. The author of that uses an appended
"h" to indicate a palatal version of a dental consonant, but doesn't say
what it would mean after "w". If I had to guess, I might guess that it
means aspiration, in which case "wh" might sound like a Maaori "wh".
But, given that those languages are unrelated, that could be a very wild
guess. There is also the fact that an "f" sound doesn't appear to occur
in Australian languages -- or, at least, that's my non-expert impression.

Scientific linguistics doesn't come into it, since presumably the name was first
written down in the late 18th or early 19th century, and they were trying to
approximate alien sounds with familiar orthography. So "wh" presumably indicated
a voiceless (labial) (lost in most of English during the 20th century), which
could in turn be used to indicate something like a voiceless r; but a simple
voiceless r is just a tap and they could have written that with t; hence it
seems like a voiceless trill is most likely. Australian languages are famous
for the number of different r-like sounds they have.

[Ross]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Ross

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Ross

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Horace LaBadie

Post by occam
No I don't. In the case of "lost" cities, the location is unknown.
Similarly with your keys. In the case of the painting - it is hanging
there, in the gallery, for everyone to see. We can see it, but do not
know its significance.

Often the lost cities are known by locals.

When I was a teenager my father took me to the ghost town of Whroo.
Whroo had a population of about 10,000 in the gold rush days, but the
population eventually dwindled down to zero. When we visited, it was
possible -- but only by very careful searching -- to find a small number
of straight lines on the ground that must have been the location of
building foundations. Apart from that, there was nothing but trees.
There was no other sign that anyone had ever lived there.
My father knew about it because he grew up on a farm only 2 to 3 km
away. Presumably there were other locals who also knew about it, but
apparently not many. Most people, even those in the nearby small town,
either didn't know about it or didn't know where it was.
Eventually the local historians tracked it down, and even found a
well-hidden cemetery in the bush, so there's now a tourist office there.

So how do you pronounce it?
(or is that ghost pronunciation?)

It's pronounced the same as "roo". The name is thought to be an
aboriginal word meaning something like "lips", and is supposedly a
reference to a water hole in the rocks that was used by the local tribe.
The water hole itself is not easy to find, but I've seen it.

Still a weird spelling. I'd like to know what sound they thought they
were representing with <whr>.

The Dja Dja Wurrung language is extinct. The only information I could
find about the sounds in the language is at
<URL:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djadjawurrung_language>
which lists w as a labial approximant but leaves it at that, with no
further detail. There's no mention of h. That web page refers to a
longish document "Dialects of Western Kulin, Western Victoria
Yartwatjali, Tjapwurrung, Djadjawurrung" which I have not read except to
look at the section on consonants. The author of that uses an appended
"h" to indicate a palatal version of a dental consonant, but doesn't say
what it would mean after "w". If I had to guess, I might guess that it
means aspiration, in which case "wh" might sound like a Maaori "wh".
But, given that those languages are unrelated, that could be a very wild
guess. There is also the fact that an "f" sound doesn't appear to occur
in Australian languages -- or, at least, that's my non-expert impression.

All of our knowledge of this language, as Blake says, is based on
19th century manuscripts. He does not find any evidence for a
voiceless labial (which might be written 'wh') or for a strange
rhotic which might be written 'whr'; and neither of these would be
expected in an Australian phonology. (As Blake points out, sound systems
are typologically pretty uniform throughout the continent.)
The place name might even be a mis-transcription from a handwritten source.

[Jack Campin]

Post by Ross

Post by Peter Moylan
<URL:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djadjawurrung_language>

All of our knowledge of this language, as Blake says, is based on
19th century manuscripts. He does not find any evidence for a
voiceless labial (which might be written 'wh') or for a strange
rhotic which might be written 'whr'; and neither of these would be
expected in an Australian phonology. (As Blake points out, sound
systems are typologically pretty uniform throughout the continent.)

This is way OT for this group but I'm curious. With peoples from at
least three completely different founding populations spread over a
few million square miles for more than 50,000 years, how come they
all developed languages that were unreasonably fond of "ng" sounds
and left out a planetful of consonants everybody else had no trouble
saying?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile [phone] <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Jack Campin

Post by Ross

Post by Peter Moylan
<URL:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djadjawurrung_language>

All of our knowledge of this language, as Blake says, is based on
19th century manuscripts. He does not find any evidence for a
voiceless labial (which might be written 'wh') or for a strange
rhotic which might be written 'whr'; and neither of these would be
expected in an Australian phonology. (As Blake points out, sound
systems are typologically pretty uniform throughout the continent.)

This is way OT for this group but I'm curious. With peoples from at
least three completely different founding populations spread over a
few million square miles for more than 50,000 years, how come they
all developed languages that were unreasonably fond of "ng" sounds
and left out a planetful of consonants everybody else had no trouble
saying?

Every language is missing sounds that speakers of some other language
find easy. For example, native English speakers find the two kinds of
"th" easy to pronounce, but learners of English often find out "th" an
almost insurmountable barrier. Naturally, we can also find sounds in
other languages that are difficult for English speakers.

Here's a quote from the Wikipedia article on "Australian Aboriginal
languages".

"Some languages also have three rhotics, typically a flap, a trill, and
an approximant; that is, like the combined rhotics of English and Spanish.

Besides the lack of fricatives, the most striking feature of Australian
speech sounds is the large number of places of articulation. "

Without going into too much detail, what that means is that those
languages use sounds that English speakers would have trouble duplicating.

A technicality: Australian languages are conventionally divided into two
groups: the Pama-Nyungan languages, which cover most of the continent,
and the non-Pama-Nyungan languages of the northern regions. The
Pama-Nyungan languages have many features in common (to the same extent
that Western European languages have a lot in common) and can probably
be called a family. The second group is not a family, but more of a
grab-box of "every language that can't be neatly categorised". Whether
that division represents separate waves of migration seems to be unknown.

[Ross]

Post by Jack Campin

Post by Ross

Post by Peter Moylan
<URL:https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Djadjawurrung_language>

All of our knowledge of this language, as Blake says, is based on
19th century manuscripts. He does not find any evidence for a
voiceless labial (which might be written 'wh') or for a strange
rhotic which might be written 'whr'; and neither of these would be
expected in an Australian phonology. (As Blake points out, sound
systems are typologically pretty uniform throughout the continent.)

This is way OT for this group but I'm curious. With peoples from at
least three completely different founding populations spread over a
few million square miles for more than 50,000 years, how come they
all developed languages that were unreasonably fond of "ng" sounds
and left out a planetful of consonants everybody else had no trouble
saying?
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile [phone] <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin

I haven't got an answer to the "how come?" question.

I'm not sure what your "three populations" is based on.

But it is striking how similar the sound systems are: three vowels /i a u/;
absence of fricatives (your "planetful"), which is not unknown elsewhere
in the world, but pretty rare; usually two "r"s and two or three "l"s;
CVCVC morpheme structurel and more. The regularities and the exceptions have been thoroughly documented by Dixon, Blake and others.

(A small point going back to "Whroo": both the /wh/+/r/ and the /whr/ theory
run into the difficulty that Australian languages typically don't start
words with _either_ consonant clusters or liquids.)

The failure of Australian languages to conform to what we would expect
(highly diversified families amenable to comparative method) was what
led to Dixon's punctuated-equilibrium model (in _The Rise and Fall of
Languages_), though it doesn't seem to have found much support.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Horace LaBadie

Post by occam
No I don't. In the case of "lost" cities, the location is unknown.
Similarly with your keys. In the case of the painting - it is hanging
there, in the gallery, for everyone to see. We can see it, but do not
know its significance.

Often the lost cities are known by locals.

When I was a teenager my father took me to the ghost town of Whroo.
Whroo had a population of about 10,000 in the gold rush days, but the
population eventually dwindled down to zero. When we visited, it was
possible -- but only by very careful searching -- to find a small number
of straight lines on the ground that must have been the location of
building foundations. Apart from that, there was nothing but trees.
There was no other sign that anyone had ever lived there.
My father knew about it because he grew up on a farm only 2 to 3 km
away. Presumably there were other locals who also knew about it, but
apparently not many. Most people, even those in the nearby small town,
either didn't know about it or didn't know where it was.

Archeologists use aerial photography (and now, satellite imagery -- especially
recently declassified images from the early 60s, before vast regions became
agricultural) to locate settlement details that can be 3000 or more years
old, so the lines of that city should be easily discerned from the air even
though they're all but invisible on the ground.

Post by Peter Moylan
Eventually the local historians tracked it down, and even found a
well-hidden cemetery in the bush, so there's now a tourist office there.

[Cheryl]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Horace LaBadie

Post by occam
No I don't. In the case of "lost" cities, the location is unknown.
Similarly with your keys. In the case of the painting - it is hanging
there, in the gallery, for everyone to see. We can see it, but do not
know its significance.

Often the lost cities are known by locals.

When I was a teenager my father took me to the ghost town of Whroo.
Whroo had a population of about 10,000 in the gold rush days, but the
population eventually dwindled down to zero. When we visited, it was
possible -- but only by very careful searching -- to find a small number
of straight lines on the ground that must have been the location of
building foundations. Apart from that, there was nothing but trees.
There was no other sign that anyone had ever lived there.
My father knew about it because he grew up on a farm only 2 to 3 km
away. Presumably there were other locals who also knew about it, but
apparently not many. Most people, even those in the nearby small town,
either didn't know about it or didn't know where it was.
Eventually the local historians tracked it down, and even found a
well-hidden cemetery in the bush, so there's now a tourist office there.

It's not unheard of around here for a forgotten cemetery to show up when
excavating for a new house. Local people do often know the sites of many
abandoned settlements, but there are others which were so short-lived,
or lived in so long ago, or both, that they, and where the inhabitants
buried their dead is forgotten. Lost, in a sense, even more than a ghost
town.

Mostly, no one is very interested in finding or excavating the site of
some long-lost fishing village, but there are other sites people are
very interested in, such as the Viking settlement at L'Anse-aux-Meadows
and the Beothuck sites. There's also Ferryland - the locals had a
tradition about the location of an early settlement by Lord Baltimore
(who later founded another settlement in a somewhat warmer climate).
Excavation proved the locals quite right about where Baltimore's
settlement was built, and the site is quite interesting if you're
interested in re-discovered lost settlements.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Cheryl

Post by Peter Moylan
Eventually the local historians tracked it down, and even found a
well-hidden cemetery in the bush, so there's now a tourist office there.

It's not unheard of around here for a forgotten cemetery to show up when
excavating for a new house. Local people do often know the sites of many
abandoned settlements, but there are others which were so short-lived,
or lived in so long ago, or both, that they, and where the inhabitants
buried their dead is forgotten. Lost, in a sense, even more than a ghost
town.

Mark Twain visited here in 1895. (Unintentionally. He had to change his
itinerary to have a tooth extracted.) He is supposed to have said
“Newcastle consists of a long street with a graveyard at one end with no
bodies in it, and a gentleman’s club at the other with no gentlemen in it”.

The gentleman's club still exists, and as far as I can tell there are
still no gentlemen among the members. The location of the graveyard has
been lost. The most likely guesses are that it is near or underneath the
Catholic cathedral, which is close to the end of Hunter Street, but no
evidence has been found.

[Dingbat]

Post by Peter Moylan
“Newcastle consists of a long street with a graveyard at one end with no
bodies in it, and a gentleman’s club at the other with no gentlemen”.
The gentleman's club still exists, and as far as I can tell there are
still no gentlemen among the members.

A GENTLEMEN'S CLUB has LADIES these days, even if it has no gentlemen,:-)

Post by Peter Moylan
The location of the graveyard has been lost.

Because NOBODY is there:->

Puns in BOLD.

[Robert Bannister]

Post by Dingbat

Post by Peter Moylan
“Newcastle consists of a long street with a graveyard at one end with no
bodies in it, and a gentleman’s club at the other with no gentlemen”.
The gentleman's club still exists, and as far as I can tell there are
still no gentlemen among the members.

A GENTLEMEN'S CLUB has LADIES these days, even if it has no gentlemen,:-)

The Weld Club does not admit ladies.

[GordonD]

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Dingbat

Post by Peter Moylan
“Newcastle consists of a long street with a graveyard at one end with no
bodies in it, and a gentleman’s club at the other with no gentlemen”.
The gentleman's club still exists, and as far as I can tell there are
still no gentlemen among the members.

A GENTLEMEN'S CLUB has LADIES these days, even if it has no gentlemen,:-)

The Weld Club does not admit ladies.

Not even on Tuesdays?

[Dingbat]

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat

Post by Peter Moylan
“Newcastle consists of a long street with a graveyard at one end with no
bodies in it, and a gentleman’s club at the other with no gentlemen”.
The gentleman's club still exists, and as far as I can tell there are
still no gentlemen among the members.

A GENTLEMEN'S CLUB has LADIES these days, even if it has no

gentlemen,:-)
The Weld Club does not admit ladies.

If it doesn't feature ladies, it wouldn't attract patrons of a certain kind
of gentlemen's club. Not that it's a bad thing to run the traditional
kind of gentleman's club that doesn't seek those kind of gents though.

Somewhere along the line, "gentlemen's club" gained new meaning as a
euphemism for a strip club with a dress code* for men to be able to enter.
* and possibly additional requirements
https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-difference-between-a-strip-club-and-a-gentlemens-club

[Robert Bannister]

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat

Post by Peter Moylan
“Newcastle consists of a long street with a graveyard at one end with no
bodies in it, and a gentleman’s club at the other with no gentlemen”.
The gentleman's club still exists, and as far as I can tell there are
still no gentlemen among the members.

A GENTLEMEN'S CLUB has LADIES these days, even if it has no

gentlemen,:-)
The Weld Club does not admit ladies.

If it doesn't feature ladies, it wouldn't attract patrons of a certain kind
of gentlemen's club. Not that it's a bad thing to run the traditional
kind of gentleman's club that doesn't seek those kind of gents though.
Somewhere along the line, "gentlemen's club" gained new meaning as a
euphemism for a strip club with a dress code* for men to be able to enter.
* and possibly additional requirements
https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-difference-between-a-strip-club-and-a-gentlemens-club

Yes. We have rather more of those kinds of club. In fact, I live quite
close to "The Doll House", which in the ad below advertises "Welcome to
the Doll House, the original gentlemen’s club.".

http://www.dollhouse.com.au/mobi/

[Horace LaBadie]

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat

“Newcastle consists of a long street with a graveyard at one end with no
bodies in it, and a gentleman’s club at the other with no gentlemen”.
The gentleman's club still exists, and as far as I can tell there are
still no gentlemen among the members.

A GENTLEMEN'S CLUB has LADIES these days, even if it has no

gentlemen,:-)
The Weld Club does not admit ladies.

If it doesn't feature ladies, it wouldn't attract patrons of a certain kind
of gentlemen's club. Not that it's a bad thing to run the traditional
kind of gentleman's club that doesn't seek those kind of gents though.
Somewhere along the line, "gentlemen's club" gained new meaning as a
euphemism for a strip club with a dress code* for men to be able to enter.
* and possibly additional requirements
https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-difference-between-a-strip-club-and-a-gentle
mens-club

Yes. We have rather more of those kinds of club. In fact, I live quite
close to "The Doll House", which in the ad below advertises "Welcome to
the Doll House, the original gentlemen’s club.".
http://www.dollhouse.com.au/mobi/

Any chance that Eliza Dushku is there?

<http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1135300/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_30>

[Robert Bannister]

Post by Horace LaBadie

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat

“Newcastle consists of a long street with a graveyard at one end with no
bodies in it, and a gentleman’s club at the other with no gentlemen”.
The gentleman's club still exists, and as far as I can tell there are
still no gentlemen among the members.

A GENTLEMEN'S CLUB has LADIES these days, even if it has no

gentlemen,:-)
The Weld Club does not admit ladies.

If it doesn't feature ladies, it wouldn't attract patrons of a certain kind
of gentlemen's club. Not that it's a bad thing to run the traditional
kind of gentleman's club that doesn't seek those kind of gents though.
Somewhere along the line, "gentlemen's club" gained new meaning as a
euphemism for a strip club with a dress code* for men to be able to enter.
* and possibly additional requirements
https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-difference-between-a-strip-club-and-a-gentle
mens-club

Yes. We have rather more of those kinds of club. In fact, I live quite
close to "The Doll House", which in the ad below advertises "Welcome to
the Doll House, the original gentlemen’s club.".
http://www.dollhouse.com.au/mobi/

Any chance that Eliza Dushku is there?
<http://www.imdb.com/title/tt1135300/?ref_=nm_flmg_act_30>

Could be, for all I know. I've never been inside.

[Quinn C]

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat

Post by Peter Moylan
“Newcastle consists of a long street with a graveyard at one end with no
bodies in it, and a gentleman’s club at the other with no gentlemen”.
The gentleman's club still exists, and as far as I can tell there are
still no gentlemen among the members.

A GENTLEMEN'S CLUB has LADIES these days, even if it has no

gentlemen,:-)
The Weld Club does not admit ladies.

If it doesn't feature ladies, it wouldn't attract patrons of a certain kind
of gentlemen's club. Not that it's a bad thing to run the traditional
kind of gentleman's club that doesn't seek those kind of gents though.
Somewhere along the line, "gentlemen's club" gained new meaning as a
euphemism for a strip club with a dress code* for men to be able to enter.
* and possibly additional requirements
https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-difference-between-a-strip-club-and-a-gentlemens-club

Yes. We have rather more of those kinds of club. In fact, I live quite
close to "The Doll House", which in the ad below advertises "Welcome to
the Doll House, the original gentlemen’s club.".
http://www.dollhouse.com.au/mobi/

I was about to ask if that usage is local, but first I made a
search for "gentlemen's club montreal" and quite a number of them
popped up. I guess I've lived a sheltered life.

To be precise, though, only one I saw had "gentlemen's club" in
the official name; others might have put it on their web site to
attract searches. In normal conversation, they are called strip
clubs.

Always keen on inter-country comparison, this comment in a review
drew my eye: "As Americans, one thing that we were wondering about
was how to tip the dancers. The smallest bill is $5."

[Tony Cooper]

On Thu, 28 Sep 2017 15:04:54 -0400, Quinn C

Post by Quinn C

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat

“Newcastle consists of a long street with a graveyard at one end with no
bodies in it, and a gentleman’s club at the other with no gentlemen”.
The gentleman's club still exists, and as far as I can tell there are
still no gentlemen among the members.

A GENTLEMEN'S CLUB has LADIES these days, even if it has no

gentlemen,:-)
The Weld Club does not admit ladies.

If it doesn't feature ladies, it wouldn't attract patrons of a certain kind
of gentlemen's club. Not that it's a bad thing to run the traditional
kind of gentleman's club that doesn't seek those kind of gents though.
Somewhere along the line, "gentlemen's club" gained new meaning as a
euphemism for a strip club with a dress code* for men to be able to enter.
* and possibly additional requirements
https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-difference-between-a-strip-club-and-a-gentlemens-club

Yes. We have rather more of those kinds of club. In fact, I live quite
close to "The Doll House", which in the ad below advertises "Welcome to
the Doll House, the original gentlemen’s club.".
http://www.dollhouse.com.au/mobi/

I was about to ask if that usage is local, but first I made a
search for "gentlemen's club montreal" and quite a number of them
popped up. I guess I've lived a sheltered life.
To be precise, though, only one I saw had "gentlemen's club" in
the official name; others might have put it on their web site to
attract searches. In normal conversation, they are called strip
clubs.
Always keen on inter-country comparison, this comment in a review
drew my eye: "As Americans, one thing that we were wondering about
was how to tip the dancers. The smallest bill is $5."

There is a strip club in Orlando by the name of "Thee Doll House".
Evidently, there's something about "doll house" that means "strip
club" other than the slang term for a female of "doll".

I have driven by several places that proclaim to be "Gentlemen's
Clubs".

[Mack A. Damia]

On Thu, 28 Sep 2017 15:29:46 -0400, Tony Cooper

Post by Tony Cooper
On Thu, 28 Sep 2017 15:04:54 -0400, Quinn C

Post by Quinn C

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat

“Newcastle consists of a long street with a graveyard at one end with no
bodies in it, and a gentleman’s club at the other with no gentlemen”.
The gentleman's club still exists, and as far as I can tell there are
still no gentlemen among the members.

A GENTLEMEN'S CLUB has LADIES these days, even if it has no

gentlemen,:-)
The Weld Club does not admit ladies.

If it doesn't feature ladies, it wouldn't attract patrons of a certain kind
of gentlemen's club. Not that it's a bad thing to run the traditional
kind of gentleman's club that doesn't seek those kind of gents though.
Somewhere along the line, "gentlemen's club" gained new meaning as a
euphemism for a strip club with a dress code* for men to be able to enter.
* and possibly additional requirements
https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-difference-between-a-strip-club-and-a-gentlemens-club

Yes. We have rather more of those kinds of club. In fact, I live quite
close to "The Doll House", which in the ad below advertises "Welcome to
the Doll House, the original gentlemen’s club.".
http://www.dollhouse.com.au/mobi/

I was about to ask if that usage is local, but first I made a
search for "gentlemen's club montreal" and quite a number of them
popped up. I guess I've lived a sheltered life.
To be precise, though, only one I saw had "gentlemen's club" in
the official name; others might have put it on their web site to
attract searches. In normal conversation, they are called strip
clubs.
Always keen on inter-country comparison, this comment in a review
drew my eye: "As Americans, one thing that we were wondering about
was how to tip the dancers. The smallest bill is $5."

Of course, this is Oz, but I think this is written by one of the
dancers.

Post by Tony Cooper
There is a strip club in Orlando by the name of "Thee Doll House".
Evidently, there's something about "doll house" that means "strip
club" other than the slang term for a female of "doll".
I have driven by several places that proclaim to be "Gentlemen's
Clubs".

I used to go to one in New Alexandria on Route 22 with my friend, the
Reverend Charles. The place is called "Cheaters" now.

The fun started after they closed at 2 am.

[Horace LaBadie]

Post by Tony Cooper
There is a strip club in Orlando by the name of "Thee Doll House".
Evidently, there's something about "doll house" that means "strip
club" other than the slang term for a female of "doll".

Doll -- plaything, toy.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Quinn C

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat

Post by Peter Moylan
“Newcastle consists of a long street with a graveyard at one end with no
bodies in it, and a gentleman’s club at the other with no gentlemen”.
The gentleman's club still exists, and as far as I can tell there are
still no gentlemen among the members.

A GENTLEMEN'S CLUB has LADIES these days, even if it has no

gentlemen,:-)
The Weld Club does not admit ladies.

If it doesn't feature ladies, it wouldn't attract patrons of a certain kind
of gentlemen's club. Not that it's a bad thing to run the traditional
kind of gentleman's club that doesn't seek those kind of gents though.
Somewhere along the line, "gentlemen's club" gained new meaning as a
euphemism for a strip club with a dress code* for men to be able to enter.
* and possibly additional requirements
https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-difference-between-a-strip-club-and-a-gentlemens-club

Yes. We have rather more of those kinds of club. In fact, I live quite
close to "The Doll House", which in the ad below advertises "Welcome to
the Doll House, the original gentlemen’s club.".
http://www.dollhouse.com.au/mobi/

I was about to ask if that usage is local, but first I made a
search for "gentlemen's club montreal" and quite a number of them
popped up. I guess I've lived a sheltered life.
To be precise, though, only one I saw had "gentlemen's club" in
the official name; others might have put it on their web site to
attract searches. In normal conversation, they are called strip
clubs.
Always keen on inter-country comparison, this comment in a review
drew my eye: "As Americans, one thing that we were wondering about
was how to tip the dancers. The smallest bill is $5."

The dancers in Windsor and Toronto happily accepted $1USD. (Though in those
days there were still $1CAD bills.) They were worth more than the local ones.

[Quinn C]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Quinn C

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat

Post by Peter Moylan
“Newcastle consists of a long street with a graveyard at one end with no
bodies in it, and a gentleman’s club at the other with no gentlemen”.
The gentleman's club still exists, and as far as I can tell there are
still no gentlemen among the members.

A GENTLEMEN'S CLUB has LADIES these days, even if it has no

gentlemen,:-)
The Weld Club does not admit ladies.

If it doesn't feature ladies, it wouldn't attract patrons of a certain kind
of gentlemen's club. Not that it's a bad thing to run the traditional
kind of gentleman's club that doesn't seek those kind of gents though.
Somewhere along the line, "gentlemen's club" gained new meaning as a
euphemism for a strip club with a dress code* for men to be able to enter.
* and possibly additional requirements
https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-difference-between-a-strip-club-and-a-gentlemens-club

Yes. We have rather more of those kinds of club. In fact, I live quite
close to "The Doll House", which in the ad below advertises "Welcome to
the Doll House, the original gentlemen’s club.".
http://www.dollhouse.com.au/mobi/

I was about to ask if that usage is local, but first I made a
search for "gentlemen's club montreal" and quite a number of them
popped up. I guess I've lived a sheltered life.
To be precise, though, only one I saw had "gentlemen's club" in
the official name; others might have put it on their web site to
attract searches. In normal conversation, they are called strip
clubs.
Always keen on inter-country comparison, this comment in a review
drew my eye: "As Americans, one thing that we were wondering about
was how to tip the dancers. The smallest bill is $5."

The dancers in Windsor and Toronto happily accepted $1USD. (Though in those
days there were still $1CAD bills.) They were worth more than the local ones.

Oh, I'm sure they would in Montreal too, although they would
prefer C$5 ones. The suggestion that the review was written by a
dancer or other staff sounds pretty convincing (it goes on
explaining the special service you can get for larger bills.)

[Ross]

Post by Quinn C

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Quinn C

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat

Post by Peter Moylan
“Newcastle consists of a long street with a graveyard at one end with no
bodies in it, and a gentleman’s club at the other with no gentlemen”.
The gentleman's club still exists, and as far as I can tell there are
still no gentlemen among the members.

A GENTLEMEN'S CLUB has LADIES these days, even if it has no

gentlemen,:-)
The Weld Club does not admit ladies.

If it doesn't feature ladies, it wouldn't attract patrons of a certain kind
of gentlemen's club. Not that it's a bad thing to run the traditional
kind of gentleman's club that doesn't seek those kind of gents though.
Somewhere along the line, "gentlemen's club" gained new meaning as a
euphemism for a strip club with a dress code* for men to be able to enter.
* and possibly additional requirements
https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-difference-between-a-strip-club-and-a-gentlemens-club

Yes. We have rather more of those kinds of club. In fact, I live quite
close to "The Doll House", which in the ad below advertises "Welcome to
the Doll House, the original gentlemen’s club.".
http://www.dollhouse.com.au/mobi/

I was about to ask if that usage is local, but first I made a
search for "gentlemen's club montreal" and quite a number of them
popped up. I guess I've lived a sheltered life.
To be precise, though, only one I saw had "gentlemen's club" in
the official name; others might have put it on their web site to
attract searches. In normal conversation, they are called strip
clubs.
Always keen on inter-country comparison, this comment in a review
drew my eye: "As Americans, one thing that we were wondering about
was how to tip the dancers. The smallest bill is $5."

The dancers in Windsor and Toronto happily accepted $1USD. (Though in those
days there were still $1CAD bills.) They were worth more than the local ones.

Oh, I'm sure they would in Montreal too, although they would
prefer C$5 ones. The suggestion that the review was written by a
dancer or other staff sounds pretty convincing (it goes on
explaining the special service you can get for larger bills.)

Oh! I thought they were worried about where to _put_ the tip!
It's not tipping, but in Polynesia people often express their
appreciation for a dancer by placing small amounts of paper money
on her person. Of course these dancers are clothed, but a bit of
bare skin will do just as well, particularly as it is likely to be
gleaming with coconut oil.

http://temporarytongan.blogspot.co.nz/2010/12/

[Ross]

Post by Ross

Post by Quinn C

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Quinn C

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat

Post by Peter Moylan
“Newcastle consists of a long street with a graveyard at one end with no
bodies in it, and a gentleman’s club at the other with no gentlemen”.
The gentleman's club still exists, and as far as I can tell there are
still no gentlemen among the members.

A GENTLEMEN'S CLUB has LADIES these days, even if it has no

gentlemen,:-)
The Weld Club does not admit ladies.

If it doesn't feature ladies, it wouldn't attract patrons of a certain kind
of gentlemen's club. Not that it's a bad thing to run the traditional
kind of gentleman's club that doesn't seek those kind of gents though.
Somewhere along the line, "gentlemen's club" gained new meaning as a
euphemism for a strip club with a dress code* for men to be able to enter.
* and possibly additional requirements
https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-difference-between-a-strip-club-and-a-gentlemens-club

Yes. We have rather more of those kinds of club. In fact, I live quite
close to "The Doll House", which in the ad below advertises "Welcome to
the Doll House, the original gentlemen’s club.".
http://www.dollhouse.com.au/mobi/

I was about to ask if that usage is local, but first I made a
search for "gentlemen's club montreal" and quite a number of them
popped up. I guess I've lived a sheltered life.
To be precise, though, only one I saw had "gentlemen's club" in
the official name; others might have put it on their web site to
attract searches. In normal conversation, they are called strip
clubs.
Always keen on inter-country comparison, this comment in a review
drew my eye: "As Americans, one thing that we were wondering about
was how to tip the dancers. The smallest bill is $5."

The dancers in Windsor and Toronto happily accepted $1USD. (Though in those
days there were still $1CAD bills.) They were worth more than the local ones.

Oh, I'm sure they would in Montreal too, although they would
prefer C$5 ones. The suggestion that the review was written by a
dancer or other staff sounds pretty convincing (it goes on
explaining the special service you can get for larger bills.)

Oh! I thought they were worried about where to _put_ the tip!
It's not tipping, but in Polynesia people often express their
appreciation for a dancer by placing small amounts of paper money
on her person. Of course these dancers are clothed, but a bit of
bare skin will do just as well, particularly as it is likely to be
gleaming with coconut oil.
http://temporarytongan.blogspot.co.nz/2010/12/

Sorry, you have to scroll down to the eighth photo.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Ross

Post by Quinn C

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Quinn C
Always keen on inter-country comparison, this comment in a review
drew my eye: "As Americans, one thing that we were wondering about
was how to tip the dancers. The smallest bill is $5."

The dancers in Windsor and Toronto happily accepted $1USD. (Though in those
days there were still $1CAD bills.) They were worth more than the local ones.

Oh, I'm sure they would in Montreal too, although they would
prefer C$5 ones. The suggestion that the review was written by a
dancer or other staff sounds pretty convincing (it goes on
explaining the special service you can get for larger bills.)

Oh! I thought they were worried about where to _put_ the tip!
It's not tipping, but in Polynesia people often express their
appreciation for a dancer by placing small amounts of paper money
on her person. Of course these dancers are clothed, but a bit of
bare skin will do just as well, particularly as it is likely to be
gleaming with coconut oil.
http://temporarytongan.blogspot.co.nz/2010/12/

If the boys are naked where it counts, they have on either socks or ankle bands (repurposed wristbands?) that serve. Presumably girl strippers have a similar
expedient.

There's also the rather unfortunate scene in *Lady Sings the Blues*.

[Quinn C]

Post by Ross

Post by Quinn C

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Quinn C

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Dingbat
Somewhere along the line, "gentlemen's club" gained new meaning as a
euphemism for a strip club with a dress code* for men to be able to enter.
* and possibly additional requirements
https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-difference-between-a-strip-club-and-a-gentlemens-club

Yes. We have rather more of those kinds of club. In fact, I live quite
close to "The Doll House", which in the ad below advertises "Welcome to
the Doll House, the original gentlemen’s club.".
http://www.dollhouse.com.au/mobi/

I was about to ask if that usage is local, but first I made a
search for "gentlemen's club montreal" and quite a number of them
popped up. I guess I've lived a sheltered life.
To be precise, though, only one I saw had "gentlemen's club" in
the official name; others might have put it on their web site to
attract searches. In normal conversation, they are called strip
clubs.
Always keen on inter-country comparison, this comment in a review
drew my eye: "As Americans, one thing that we were wondering about
was how to tip the dancers. The smallest bill is $5."

The dancers in Windsor and Toronto happily accepted $1USD. (Though in those
days there were still $1CAD bills.) They were worth more than the local ones.

Oh, I'm sure they would in Montreal too, although they would
prefer C$5 ones. The suggestion that the review was written by a
dancer or other staff sounds pretty convincing (it goes on
explaining the special service you can get for larger bills.)

Oh! I thought they were worried about where to _put_ the tip!

Yes, yes, that's how the question was posed: where would you put a
loonie ($1 coin)? The rest of the text seemed to encourage going
for those $5 and higher bills instead, with the promise of a more
interesting experience.

You can find the details (on yelp) by searching for my quote.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

I wish I could remember a good example, but I can't, but there have
been some in which something has been "lost" despite being in full view
of everyone.

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I wish I could remember a good example, but I can't, but there have
been some in which something has been "lost" despite being in full view
of everyone.

There was a 'lost Renoir' in the news some time ago.
(last seen in public in 1865)
The lucky owner bought it on leboncoin for 700 euro
as an unsigned 18th century painting
ascribed to a minor master.
It must have been in full view in many living rooms,
in the meantime.

At home with it his sharp-eyed 11-year old son spotted
a very faint "A. Renoir" and an "1864" on it.
If confirmed he will be rich indeed.

I haven't kept up,

Jan

[Paul Wolff]

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I wish I could remember a good example, but I can't, but there have
been some in which something has been "lost" despite being in full view
of everyone.

There was a 'lost Renoir' in the news some time ago.
(last seen in public in 1865)
The lucky owner bought it on leboncoin for 700 euro
as an unsigned 18th century painting
ascribed to a minor master.
It must have been in full view in many living rooms,
in the meantime.
At home with it his sharp-eyed 11-year old son spotted
a very faint "A. Renoir" and an "1864" on it.
If confirmed he will be rich indeed.
I haven't kept up,

A 1620s painting by Peter Paul Rubens of George Villiers, Duke of
Buckingham and object of the affections of James VI of Scotland - no
English king could be so sinful, or such a scourge of smokers - was
displayed in Pollok House as a copy until an ace BBC arts reporter
decided it was suspiciously Rubens-like in technique (eyebrows done with
the wrong end of the brush was one example) and had it vetted. It has
now been authenticated by the Rubenshuis in Antwerpen, which makes it
officially "found", and promoted to the Kelvingrove Gallery in Glasgow
(European Capital of Culture 1990, so only 27 years late).

[occam]

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I wish I could remember a good example, but I can't, but there have
been some in which something has been "lost" despite being in full view
of everyone.

There was a 'lost Renoir' in the news some time ago.
(last seen in public in 1865)
The lucky owner bought it on leboncoin for 700 euro
as an unsigned 18th century painting
ascribed to a minor master.
It must have been in full view in many living rooms,
in the meantime.
At home with it his sharp-eyed 11-year old son spotted
a very faint "A. Renoir" and an "1864" on it.
If confirmed he will be rich indeed.
I haven't kept up,

A 1620s painting by Peter Paul Rubens of George Villiers, Duke of
Buckingham and object of the affections of James VI of Scotland - no
English king could be so sinful, or such a scourge of smokers - was
displayed in Pollok House as a copy until an ace BBC arts reporter
decided it was suspiciously Rubens-like in technique (eyebrows done with
the wrong end of the brush was one example) and had it vetted. It has
now been authenticated by the Rubenshuis in Antwerpen, which makes it
officially "found", and promoted to the Kelvingrove Gallery in Glasgow
(European Capital of Culture 1990, so only 27 years late).

I believe that is the same painting referred to in the article (see the
original post). It was featured in one of the 'Britain's Lost
Masterpieces' program of the BBC.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

Post by occam

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I wish I could remember a good example, but I can't, but there have
been some in which something has been "lost" despite being in full view
of everyone.

There was a 'lost Renoir' in the news some time ago.
(last seen in public in 1865)
The lucky owner bought it on leboncoin for 700 euro
as an unsigned 18th century painting
ascribed to a minor master.
It must have been in full view in many living rooms,
in the meantime.
At home with it his sharp-eyed 11-year old son spotted
a very faint "A. Renoir" and an "1864" on it.
If confirmed he will be rich indeed.
I haven't kept up,

A 1620s painting by Peter Paul Rubens of George Villiers, Duke of
Buckingham and object of the affections of James VI of Scotland - no
English king could be so sinful, or such a scourge of smokers - was
displayed in Pollok House as a copy until an ace BBC arts reporter
decided it was suspiciously Rubens-like in technique (eyebrows done with
the wrong end of the brush was one example) and had it vetted. It has
now been authenticated by the Rubenshuis in Antwerpen, which makes it
officially "found", and promoted to the Kelvingrove Gallery in Glasgow
(European Capital of Culture 1990, so only 27 years late).

I believe that is the same painting referred to in the article (see the
original post). It was featured in one of the 'Britain's Lost
Masterpieces' program of the BBC.

Yes.
There is another article about the programme here:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/latestnews/2017/britains-lost-masterpieces-rubens

[Jack Campin]

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by occam

Post by Paul Wolff
A 1620s painting by Peter Paul Rubens of George Villiers, Duke of
Buckingham and object of the affections of James VI of Scotland - no
English king could be so sinful, or such a scourge of smokers - was
displayed in Pollok House as a copy until an ace BBC arts reporter
decided it was suspiciously Rubens-like in technique (eyebrows done with
the wrong end of the brush was one example) and had it vetted. It has
now been authenticated by the Rubenshuis in Antwerpen, which makes it
officially "found", and promoted to the Kelvingrove Gallery in Glasgow
(European Capital of Culture 1990, so only 27 years late).

I believe that is the same painting referred to in the article (see the
original post). It was featured in one of the 'Britain's Lost
Masterpieces' program of the BBC.

Yes.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/latestnews/2017/britains-lost-masterpieces-rubens

I friend of mine is looking for a Sunday Times article about this
series, from the weekend before last. I can't find it on-line.
Does it exist either digitally or on paper? (The nearest physical
copy of the Sunday Times I can get at is ten miles away).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile [phone] <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

Post by Jack Campin

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by occam

Post by Paul Wolff
A 1620s painting by Peter Paul Rubens of George Villiers, Duke of
Buckingham and object of the affections of James VI of Scotland - no
English king could be so sinful, or such a scourge of smokers - was
displayed in Pollok House as a copy until an ace BBC arts reporter
decided it was suspiciously Rubens-like in technique (eyebrows done with
the wrong end of the brush was one example) and had it vetted. It has
now been authenticated by the Rubenshuis in Antwerpen, which makes it
officially "found", and promoted to the Kelvingrove Gallery in Glasgow
(European Capital of Culture 1990, so only 27 years late).

I believe that is the same painting referred to in the article (see the
original post). It was featured in one of the 'Britain's Lost
Masterpieces' program of the BBC.

Yes.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/mediacentre/latestnews/2017/britains-lost-masterpieces-rubens

I friend of mine is looking for a Sunday Times article about this
series, from the weekend before last. I can't find it on-line.
Does it exist either digitally or on paper? (The nearest physical
copy of the Sunday Times I can get at is ten miles away).

It is on the Sunday Times website behind a paywall. It was written by
Richard Brooks, Arts Editor.

It is shorter than the BBC articles url-ed above.

I'll email you the text of the article.

Post by Jack Campin
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile [phone] <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin

[Paul Wolff]

Post by occam

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I wish I could remember a good example, but I can't, but there have
been some in which something has been "lost" despite being in full view
of everyone.

There was a 'lost Renoir' in the news some time ago.
(last seen in public in 1865)
The lucky owner bought it on leboncoin for 700 euro
as an unsigned 18th century painting
ascribed to a minor master.
It must have been in full view in many living rooms,
in the meantime.
At home with it his sharp-eyed 11-year old son spotted
a very faint "A. Renoir" and an "1864" on it.
If confirmed he will be rich indeed.
I haven't kept up,

A 1620s painting by Peter Paul Rubens of George Villiers, Duke of
Buckingham and object of the affections of James VI of Scotland - no
English king could be so sinful, or such a scourge of smokers - was
displayed in Pollok House as a copy until an ace BBC arts reporter
decided it was suspiciously Rubens-like in technique (eyebrows done with
the wrong end of the brush was one example) and had it vetted. It has
now been authenticated by the Rubenshuis in Antwerpen, which makes it
officially "found", and promoted to the Kelvingrove Gallery in Glasgow
(European Capital of Culture 1990, so only 27 years late).

I believe that is the same painting referred to in the article (see the
original post).

Oh, so it is. As must be obvious, I'd not been reading this thread.

Post by occam
It was featured in one of the 'Britain's Lost
Masterpieces' program of the BBC.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I wish I could remember a good example, but I can't, but there have
been some in which something has been "lost" despite being in full view
of everyone.

"The Purloined Letter" is one of the best-known short stories in English literature.

[Tony Cooper]

On Sun, 1 Oct 2017 10:25:02 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I wish I could remember a good example, but I can't, but there have
been some in which something has been "lost" despite being in full view
of everyone.

Presidential dignity in the Oval Office. The man is surrounded by the
dignity of the office, but there's a void of dignity in his personal
space.

[occam]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 1 Oct 2017 10:25:02 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I wish I could remember a good example, but I can't, but there have
been some in which something has been "lost" despite being in full view
of everyone.

Presidential dignity in the Oval Office. The man is surrounded by the
dignity of the office, but there's a void of dignity in his personal
space.

I don't think that has been lost on the rest of us though ;-)

[Peter Moylan]

Post by occam

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 1 Oct 2017 10:25:02 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I wish I could remember a good example, but I can't, but there have
been some in which something has been "lost" despite being in full view
of everyone.

Presidential dignity in the Oval Office. The man is surrounded by the
dignity of the office, but there's a void of dignity in his personal
space.

I don't think that has been lost on the rest of us though ;-)

Do we need a word for it? By now the entire world knows that Trump lacks
all possible presidential qualities, and that the USA will remain
irrelevant to the rest of the world for three more years.

Of course the fact that he could, by excessive poking at the cage,
result in wiping out all of humanity, remains central to our thinking,
but we are rather hoping that Trump will be assassinated before that
happens.

[Tony Cooper]

On Tue, 3 Oct 2017 02:18:13 +1100, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by occam

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 1 Oct 2017 10:25:02 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I wish I could remember a good example, but I can't, but there have
been some in which something has been "lost" despite being in full view
of everyone.

Presidential dignity in the Oval Office. The man is surrounded by the
dignity of the office, but there's a void of dignity in his personal
space.

I don't think that has been lost on the rest of us though ;-)

Do we need a word for it? By now the entire world knows that Trump lacks
all possible presidential qualities, and that the USA will remain
irrelevant to the rest of the world for three more years.

I think you are dead wrong, there. It is his total incompetence as
President that will mean that the US is even more relevant to the rest
of the world than before he took office.

The world is now watching the US more than ever. Albeit for different
reasons, but the world is watching and paying attention to us.
Snickering, yes, but also with an increasing feeling of dread.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by occam

Post by Tony Cooper
On Sun, 1 Oct 2017 10:25:02 +0200, Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I wish I could remember a good example, but I can't, but there have
been some in which something has been "lost" despite being in full view
of everyone.

Presidential dignity in the Oval Office. The man is surrounded by the
dignity of the office, but there's a void of dignity in his personal
space.

I don't think that has been lost on the rest of us though ;-)

Do we need a word for it? By now the entire world knows that Trump lacks
all possible presidential qualities, and that the USA will remain
irrelevant to the rest of the world for three more years.
Of course the fact that he could, by excessive poking at the cage,
result in wiping out all of humanity, remains central to our thinking,
but we are rather hoping that Trump will be assassinated before that
happens.

This morning WNYC had an interview with the editor of a book in which 23
psychologists present "differential diagnoses" of Trump's mental illnesses
(which is how they get around the "Goldwater Rule" of not diagnosing a
patient you've never met), plus the guy who wrote *The Art of the Deal*
for him (spending more than a year with him to distill his "method"). They
didn't name the publisher, but I expect it'll be on the front table at my
next Barnes & Noble visit.

A caller-in asked about Narcissism Disorder -- she said that doesn't usually
contribute to dysfunction.

Even in his "consolatory" address about Las Vegas this morning, he managed to
slip in "our great flag" (will be at half staff) and consoled only the survivors
of the "Americans" who were victims.

[Reinhold {Rey} Aman]

Post by Peter Moylan
we are rather hoping that Trump will be assassinated before
that happens.

Your "we" does not include me.

Unlike you and hateful PeteY Daniels, *I* do not wish that others be
assassinated or die.

[Jack Campin]

Post by Reinhold {Rey} Aman

Post by Peter Moylan
we are rather hoping that Trump will be assassinated before
that happens.

Your "we" does not include me.
Unlike you and hateful PeteY Daniels, *I* do not wish that
others be assassinated or die.

Compromise suggestion. Can't we all agree it would be nice
if he suddenly got blind, dumb and bedridden from anaemia
caused by bleeding haemorrhoids?

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile [phone] <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 02 Oct 2017 16:14:47 -0700, Reinhold {Rey} Aman

Post by Reinhold {Rey} Aman

Post by Peter Moylan
we are rather hoping that Trump will be assassinated before
that happens.

Your "we" does not include me.

Nor does it include me. I would be pleased if he resigns, if he is
impeached, or if - for any reason - that he vacates the office, but I
don't wish to see him assassinated.

[David Kleinecke]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 02 Oct 2017 16:14:47 -0700, Reinhold {Rey} Aman

Post by Reinhold {Rey} Aman

Post by Peter Moylan
we are rather hoping that Trump will be assassinated before
that happens.

Your "we" does not include me.

Nor does it include me. I would be pleased if he resigns, if he is
impeached, or if - for any reason - that he vacates the office, but I
don't wish to see him assassinated.

I agree assassination is a bad idea. Would make him a
martyr for a certain class of people. The kind who think
Jesse James was a hero/

[Lewis]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 02 Oct 2017 16:14:47 -0700, Reinhold {Rey} Aman

Post by Reinhold {Rey} Aman

Post by Peter Moylan
we are rather hoping that Trump will be assassinated before
that happens.

Your "we" does not include me.

Nor does it include me. I would be pleased if he resigns, if he is
impeached, or if - for any reason - that he vacates the office, but I
don't wish to see him assassinated.

Me neither. I want him in jail.

[Jenny Telia]

Post by Quinn C

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Quinn C
Always keen on inter-country comparison, this comment in a review
drew my eye: "As Americans, one thing that we were wondering about
was how to tip the dancers. The smallest bill is $5."

The dancers in Windsor and Toronto happily accepted $1USD. (Though in those
days there were still $1CAD bills.) They were worth more than the local ones.

Oh, I'm sure they would in Montreal too, although they would
prefer C$5 ones. The suggestion that the review was written by a
dancer or other staff sounds pretty convincing (it goes on
explaining the special service you can get for larger bills.)

<sigh> It won't ever be the same with Bitcoins.

[Quinn C]

Post by Jenny Telia

Post by Quinn C

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Quinn C
Always keen on inter-country comparison, this comment in a review
drew my eye: "As Americans, one thing that we were wondering about
was how to tip the dancers. The smallest bill is $5."

The dancers in Windsor and Toronto happily accepted $1USD. (Though in those
days there were still $1CAD bills.) They were worth more than the local ones.

Oh, I'm sure they would in Montreal too, although they would
prefer C$5 ones. The suggestion that the review was written by a
dancer or other staff sounds pretty convincing (it goes on
explaining the special service you can get for larger bills.)

<sigh> It won't ever be the same with Bitcoins.

Don't underestimate human creativity - I see a number of
Kickstarter ideas there.

[s***@gmail.com]

Post by Quinn C

Post by Jenny Telia

Post by Quinn C

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Quinn C
Always keen on inter-country comparison, this comment in a review
drew my eye: "As Americans, one thing that we were wondering about
was how to tip the dancers. The smallest bill is $5."

The dancers in Windsor and Toronto happily accepted $1USD. (Though in those
days there were still $1CAD bills.) They were worth more than the local ones.

Oh, I'm sure they would in Montreal too, although they would
prefer C$5 ones. The suggestion that the review was written by a
dancer or other staff sounds pretty convincing (it goes on
explaining the special service you can get for larger bills.)

<sigh> It won't ever be the same with Bitcoins.

Don't underestimate human creativity - I see a number of
Kickstarter ideas there.

Perhaps Jenny is concerned about obscuring her tail
with a Samsung Note 8.

/dps

[Lewis]

Post by Quinn C

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat

Post by Peter Moylan
“Newcastle consists of a long street with a graveyard at one end with no
bodies in it, and a gentleman’s club at the other with no gentlemen”.
The gentleman's club still exists, and as far as I can tell there are
still no gentlemen among the members.

A GENTLEMEN'S CLUB has LADIES these days, even if it has no

gentlemen,:-)
The Weld Club does not admit ladies.

If it doesn't feature ladies, it wouldn't attract patrons of a certain kind
of gentlemen's club. Not that it's a bad thing to run the traditional
kind of gentleman's club that doesn't seek those kind of gents though.
Somewhere along the line, "gentlemen's club" gained new meaning as a
euphemism for a strip club with a dress code* for men to be able to enter.
* and possibly additional requirements
https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-difference-between-a-strip-club-and-a-gentlemens-club

Yes. We have rather more of those kinds of club. In fact, I live quite
close to "The Doll House", which in the ad below advertises "Welcome to
the Doll House, the original gentlemen’s club.".
http://www.dollhouse.com.au/mobi/

I was about to ask if that usage is local, but first I made a
search for "gentlemen's club montreal" and quite a number of them
popped up. I guess I've lived a sheltered life.
To be precise, though, only one I saw had "gentlemen's club" in
the official name; others might have put it on their web site to
attract searches. In normal conversation, they are called strip
clubs.

Depends on who you are talking to, or who is around to hear the
conversation.

[Quinn C]

Post by Lewis

Post by Quinn C

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat

Post by Peter Moylan
“Newcastle consists of a long street with a graveyard at one end with no
bodies in it, and a gentleman’s club at the other with no gentlemen”.
The gentleman's club still exists, and as far as I can tell there are
still no gentlemen among the members.

A GENTLEMEN'S CLUB has LADIES these days, even if it has no

gentlemen,:-)
The Weld Club does not admit ladies.

If it doesn't feature ladies, it wouldn't attract patrons of a certain kind
of gentlemen's club. Not that it's a bad thing to run the traditional
kind of gentleman's club that doesn't seek those kind of gents though.
Somewhere along the line, "gentlemen's club" gained new meaning as a
euphemism for a strip club with a dress code* for men to be able to enter.
* and possibly additional requirements
https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-difference-between-a-strip-club-and-a-gentlemens-club

Yes. We have rather more of those kinds of club. In fact, I live quite
close to "The Doll House", which in the ad below advertises "Welcome to
the Doll House, the original gentlemen’s club.".
http://www.dollhouse.com.au/mobi/

I was about to ask if that usage is local, but first I made a
search for "gentlemen's club montreal" and quite a number of them
popped up. I guess I've lived a sheltered life.
To be precise, though, only one I saw had "gentlemen's club" in
the official name; others might have put it on their web site to
attract searches. In normal conversation, they are called strip
clubs.

Depends on who you are talking to, or who is around to hear the
conversation.

You seem to be a little unclear on the concept of "normal
conversation", which obviously means the kind of conversation I
have, with the kind of people I socialize with.

[Lewis]

Post by Quinn C

Post by Lewis

Post by Quinn C

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat

Post by Peter Moylan
“Newcastle consists of a long street with a graveyard at one end with no
bodies in it, and a gentleman’s club at the other with no gentlemen”.
The gentleman's club still exists, and as far as I can tell there are
still no gentlemen among the members.

A GENTLEMEN'S CLUB has LADIES these days, even if it has no

gentlemen,:-)
The Weld Club does not admit ladies.

If it doesn't feature ladies, it wouldn't attract patrons of a certain kind
of gentlemen's club. Not that it's a bad thing to run the traditional
kind of gentleman's club that doesn't seek those kind of gents though.
Somewhere along the line, "gentlemen's club" gained new meaning as a
euphemism for a strip club with a dress code* for men to be able to enter.
* and possibly additional requirements
https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-difference-between-a-strip-club-and-a-gentlemens-club

Yes. We have rather more of those kinds of club. In fact, I live quite
close to "The Doll House", which in the ad below advertises "Welcome to
the Doll House, the original gentlemen’s club.".
http://www.dollhouse.com.au/mobi/

I was about to ask if that usage is local, but first I made a
search for "gentlemen's club montreal" and quite a number of them
popped up. I guess I've lived a sheltered life.
To be precise, though, only one I saw had "gentlemen's club" in
the official name; others might have put it on their web site to
attract searches. In normal conversation, they are called strip
clubs.

Depends on who you are talking to, or who is around to hear the
conversation.

You seem to be a little unclear on the concept of "normal
conversation", which obviously means the kind of conversation I
have, with the kind of people I socialize with.

And if, say, your elderly aunt/grandmother was around, would you still
say strip club?

[Cheryl]

Post by Lewis

Post by Quinn C

Post by Lewis

Post by Quinn C

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat

Post by Peter Moylan
“Newcastle consists of a long street with a graveyard at one end with no
bodies in it, and a gentleman’s club at the other with no gentlemen”.
The gentleman's club still exists, and as far as I can tell there are
still no gentlemen among the members.

A GENTLEMEN'S CLUB has LADIES these days, even if it has no

gentlemen,:-)
The Weld Club does not admit ladies.

If it doesn't feature ladies, it wouldn't attract patrons of a certain kind
of gentlemen's club. Not that it's a bad thing to run the traditional
kind of gentleman's club that doesn't seek those kind of gents though.
Somewhere along the line, "gentlemen's club" gained new meaning as a
euphemism for a strip club with a dress code* for men to be able to enter.
* and possibly additional requirements
https://www.quora.com/Whats-the-difference-between-a-strip-club-and-a-gentlemens-club

Yes. We have rather more of those kinds of club. In fact, I live quite
close to "The Doll House", which in the ad below advertises "Welcome to
the Doll House, the original gentlemen’s club.".
http://www.dollhouse.com.au/mobi/

I was about to ask if that usage is local, but first I made a
search for "gentlemen's club montreal" and quite a number of them
popped up. I guess I've lived a sheltered life.
To be precise, though, only one I saw had "gentlemen's club" in
the official name; others might have put it on their web site to
attract searches. In normal conversation, they are called strip
clubs.

Depends on who you are talking to, or who is around to hear the
conversation.

You seem to be a little unclear on the concept of "normal
conversation", which obviously means the kind of conversation I
have, with the kind of people I socialize with.

And if, say, your elderly aunt/grandmother was around, would you still
say strip club?

I think so. I remember when some elderly relatives visited St. John's
and had lunch at a restaurant which, they later discovered, featured
nudity in the evenings. They were rather amused at the idea that idea
that they'd accidentally visited a strip club.

I don't really think of a "gentlemen's club" as being any better than a
"strip club", but that may be because at one time a business advertised
itself as a gentlemen's club on the exterior of an extremely decrepit
and run-down building. I did not investigate the interior so I could
compare it to that of places known as strip clubs, which I had also not
visited.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Cheryl
I don't really think of a "gentlemen's club" as being any better than a
"strip club", but that may be because at one time a business advertised
itself as a gentlemen's club on the exterior of an extremely decrepit
and run-down building. I did not investigate the interior so I could
compare it to that of places known as strip clubs, which I had also not
visited.

As the person who brought a gentlemen's club into this conversation, I
had better make it clear that the dress rules of The Newcastle Club are
rather strict, and anyone attempting to remove their jacket or tie might
well be ejected. In any case, women weren't even allowed in the place
until recently.

[Adam Funk]

Post by Peter Moylan
As the person who brought a gentlemen's club into this conversation, I
had better make it clear that the dress rules of The Newcastle Club are
rather strict, and anyone attempting to remove their jacket or tie might
well be ejected. In any case, women weren't even allowed in the place
until recently.

The excellent Munchkin card game [1] has a weapon called "gentlemen's
club" marked "usable by males only". Females can use the "broad
sword".

<Loading Image...>

<Loading Image...>


[1] Munchkin is the mega-hit card game about dungeon adventure
. . . with none of that stupid roleplaying stuff. You and your
friends compete to kill monsters and grab magic items. And what
magic items! Don the Horny Helmet and the Boots of
Butt-Kicking. Wield the Staff of Napalm . . . or maybe the
Chainsaw of Bloody Dismemberment. Start by slaughtering the Potted
Plant and the Drooling Slime, and work your way up to the
Plutonium Dragon . . .

<http://www.worldofmunchkin.com/game/>

[Robert Bannister]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Cheryl
I don't really think of a "gentlemen's club" as being any better than a
"strip club", but that may be because at one time a business advertised
itself as a gentlemen's club on the exterior of an extremely decrepit
and run-down building. I did not investigate the interior so I could
compare it to that of places known as strip clubs, which I had also not
visited.

As the person who brought a gentlemen's club into this conversation, I
had better make it clear that the dress rules of The Newcastle Club are
rather strict, and anyone attempting to remove their jacket or tie might
well be ejected. In any case, women weren't even allowed in the place
until recently.

Perth's Weld Club is even stricter. I was reminded on hearing an
interview with a new female judge who said her colleagues celebrated her
elevation to the High Court by lunching at the Weld Club. She, of
course, could not be invited. Every now and then, they talk about
admitting ladies, but I'm not sure of the present state of play.

[Quinn C]

Post by Lewis

Post by Quinn C

Post by Lewis

Post by Quinn C
To be precise, though, only one I saw had "gentlemen's club" in
the official name; others might have put it on their web site to
attract searches. In normal conversation, they are called strip
clubs.

Depends on who you are talking to, or who is around to hear the
conversation.

You seem to be a little unclear on the concept of "normal
conversation", which obviously means the kind of conversation I
have, with the kind of people I socialize with.

And if, say, your elderly aunt/grandmother was around, would you still
say strip club?

I think I would, and it wouldn't be a problem, because I'm not
about to tell how I visit them regularly or how I enjoy them.

The comment about strip clubs I'm most likely to make is that
Montreal is remarkable in that you might find a strip club right
next to a university building, and no one seems to mind.

[Lewis]

Post by Quinn C

Post by Lewis

Post by Quinn C

Post by Lewis

Post by Quinn C
To be precise, though, only one I saw had "gentlemen's club" in
the official name; others might have put it on their web site to
attract searches. In normal conversation, they are called strip
clubs.

Depends on who you are talking to, or who is around to hear the
conversation.

You seem to be a little unclear on the concept of "normal
conversation", which obviously means the kind of conversation I
have, with the kind of people I socialize with.

And if, say, your elderly aunt/grandmother was around, would you still
say strip club?

I think I would, and it wouldn't be a problem, because I'm not
about to tell how I visit them regularly or how I enjoy them.
The comment about strip clubs I'm most likely to make is that
Montreal is remarkable in that you might find a strip club right
next to a university building, and no one seems to mind.

I think things are different in the US which is much more repressed and
embarrassed than, as far as I can tell, everywhere else in the world.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Lewis

Post by Quinn C
The comment about strip clubs I'm most likely to make is that
Montreal is remarkable in that you might find a strip club right
next to a university building, and no one seems to mind.

I think things are different in the US which is much more repressed and
embarrassed than, as far as I can tell, everywhere else in the world.

Really? I've heard of cities that have entire strip malls.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sat, 30 Sep 2017 11:58:31 +1000, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Lewis

Post by Quinn C
The comment about strip clubs I'm most likely to make is that
Montreal is remarkable in that you might find a strip club right
next to a university building, and no one seems to mind.

I think things are different in the US which is much more repressed and
embarrassed than, as far as I can tell, everywhere else in the world.

Really? I've heard of cities that have entire strip malls.

<chuckle>

[Jack Campin]

Post by Quinn C
The comment about strip clubs I'm most likely to make is that
Montreal is remarkable in that you might find a strip club
right next to a university building, and no one seems to mind.

In Edinburgh there are a few bars with strippers right next
to the art college. I suspect it is not unheard-of for the
same people to take their clothes off for money in both.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile [phone] <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin

[Lewis]

Post by Jack Campin

Post by Quinn C
The comment about strip clubs I'm most likely to make is that
Montreal is remarkable in that you might find a strip club
right next to a university building, and no one seems to mind.

In Edinburgh there are a few bars with strippers right next
to the art college. I suspect it is not unheard-of for the
same people to take their clothes off for money in both.

In the US most places have rather strict zoning laws about what sorts of
adult businesses can go where. Liquor stores and marijuana dispensaries
(medical or recreation) and strip clubs cannot be anywhere near a
school, playground, day-care, or any other kid-associated place.

In Denver, and I've heard this is true other places, an establishment
that has nude performers cannot sell alcohol.

Liquor licenses for restaurants are laxer, but if the place is a
bar/tavern/pub the same or similar zoning rules apply.

In addition, any liquor license has to go through a neighborhood review,
and the neighborhood association *can* block a liquor store or bar. This
is why affluent neighborhoods have fewer liquor stores and bars than
poorer ones.

[Mack A. Damia]

On Sun, 1 Oct 2017 11:44:51 -0000 (UTC), Lewis

Post by Lewis

Post by Jack Campin

Post by Quinn C
The comment about strip clubs I'm most likely to make is that
Montreal is remarkable in that you might find a strip club
right next to a university building, and no one seems to mind.

In Edinburgh there are a few bars with strippers right next
to the art college. I suspect it is not unheard-of for the
same people to take their clothes off for money in both.

In the US most places have rather strict zoning laws about what sorts of
adult businesses can go where. Liquor stores and marijuana dispensaries
(medical or recreation) and strip clubs cannot be anywhere near a
school, playground, day-care, or any other kid-associated place.
In Denver, and I've heard this is true other places, an establishment
that has nude performers cannot sell alcohol.
Liquor licenses for restaurants are laxer, but if the place is a
bar/tavern/pub the same or similar zoning rules apply.
In addition, any liquor license has to go through a neighborhood review,
and the neighborhood association *can* block a liquor store or bar. This
is why affluent neighborhoods have fewer liquor stores and bars than
poorer ones.

"Don't Wear A Merkin"

Washington State has such restrictive laws that it would be nearly
impossible to have a strip club that served alcohol. If you did want
to have such a thing, the liquor code specifies "Entertainers may only
expose their breast and/or buttocks if the performer(s) is...removed
at least six feet from the nearest patron." It also says they may not
"wear or use any device or covering that is exposed to view which
simulates the breast, genitals, anus, pubic hair, or any portion
thereof." That means no simulating pubic hair, which means no merkins.

*The Weirdest Strip Club Laws*

http://www.complex.com/pop-culture/2013/08/weird-strip-club-laws/

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Mack A. Damia
"Don't Wear A Merkin"
Washington State has such restrictive laws that it would be nearly
impossible to have a strip club that served alcohol. If you did want
to have such a thing, the liquor code specifies "Entertainers may only
expose their breast and/or buttocks if the performer(s) is...removed
at least six feet from the nearest patron." It also says they may not
"wear or use any device or covering that is exposed to view which
simulates the breast, genitals, anus, pubic hair, or any portion
thereof." That means no simulating pubic hair, which means no merkins.
*The Weirdest Strip Club Laws*
http://www.complex.com/pop-culture/2013/08/weird-strip-club-laws/

DC has, or used to have, an ordinance requiring strippers in a place that
served alcohol to always wear at least two pieces of clothing. Unfortunately
the ordinance failed to specify any particular pieces of clothing, so shoes
or ankle bands suitable for placing currency were popular. The "oversight"
may have been deliberate in view of the large number of congressmen who
patronized the gay stripper bars (especially Chesapeake House, the one located
conveniently downtown rather than at Dupont Circle), since Congress retains
ultimate authority over the government of the District.

[Mack A. Damia]

On Mon, 25 Sep 2017 08:39:21 -0700 (PDT), Dingbat

Post by Dingbat

“Newcastle consists of a long street with a graveyard at one end with no
bodies in it, and a gentleman’s club at the other with no gentlemen”.
The gentleman's club still exists, and as far as I can tell there are
still no gentlemen among the members.

A GENTLEMEN'S CLUB has LADIES these days, even if it has no gentlemen,:-)

When I frequented them in the past century, I would wait until they
were totally naked, and then I would yell......

"Take it off, lady!"

Always got a good laugh.

[Adam Funk]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Horace LaBadie
Often the lost cities are known by locals.

Lost City, West Virginia, is clearly signposted. (It's also on the
Lost River.)

Post by Peter Moylan
When I was a teenager my father took me to the ghost town of Whroo.
Whroo had a population of about 10,000 in the gold rush days, but the
population eventually dwindled down to zero. When we visited, it was
possible -- but only by very careful searching -- to find a small number
of straight lines on the ground that must have been the location of
building foundations. Apart from that, there was nothing but trees.
There was no other sign that anyone had ever lived there.
My father knew about it because he grew up on a farm only 2 to 3 km
away. Presumably there were other locals who also knew about it, but
apparently not many. Most people, even those in the nearby small town,
either didn't know about it or didn't know where it was.
Eventually the local historians tracked it down, and even found a
well-hidden cemetery in the bush, so there's now a tourist office there.

I've seen the "humps & bumps" of DMVs (deserted mediæval villages) but
not C.19 ones. I remember seeing an interesting article (in National
Geographic?) with photos of a deserted town in New England that had
been taken over by woodland so that roughly 100 years later it was
difficult to find (& eerie).

[David Kleinecke]

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Horace LaBadie
Often the lost cities are known by locals.

Lost City, West Virginia, is clearly signposted. (It's also on the
Lost River.)

Post by Peter Moylan
When I was a teenager my father took me to the ghost town of Whroo.
Whroo had a population of about 10,000 in the gold rush days, but the
population eventually dwindled down to zero. When we visited, it was
possible -- but only by very careful searching -- to find a small number
of straight lines on the ground that must have been the location of
building foundations. Apart from that, there was nothing but trees.
There was no other sign that anyone had ever lived there.
My father knew about it because he grew up on a farm only 2 to 3 km
away. Presumably there were other locals who also knew about it, but
apparently not many. Most people, even those in the nearby small town,
either didn't know about it or didn't know where it was.
Eventually the local historians tracked it down, and even found a
well-hidden cemetery in the bush, so there's now a tourist office there.

I've seen the "humps & bumps" of DMVs (deserted mediæval villages) but
not C.19 ones. I remember seeing an interesting article (in National
Geographic?) with photos of a deserted town in New England that had
been taken over by woodland so that roughly 100 years later it was
difficult to find (& eerie).

Here is the Emerald Triangle we have lots of lost towns. Lost,
that is, in the sense of there is nothing there even though there
was a town. Most of these lost towns were company milling
towns - some so temporary that the houses were built on sledges
that could be hauled to another location. One, however, with the
improbable name of Centerville was a seaport. There is nothing
left of Centerville except a cross memorializing an 1860 ship
wreck. One town, Dyerville, is lost because it was destroyed in
the big flood of 1964 and never rebuilt.

[Adam Funk]

Post by David Kleinecke

Post by Adam Funk
I've seen the "humps & bumps" of DMVs (deserted mediæval villages) but
not C.19 ones. I remember seeing an interesting article (in National
Geographic?) with photos of a deserted town in New England that had
been taken over by woodland so that roughly 100 years later it was
difficult to find (& eerie).

Here is the Emerald Triangle we have lots of lost towns. Lost,
that is, in the sense of there is nothing there even though there
was a town. Most of these lost towns were company milling
towns - some so temporary that the houses were built on sledges
that could be hauled to another location. One, however, with the
improbable name of Centerville was a seaport. There is nothing
left of Centerville except a cross memorializing an 1860 ship
wreck. One town, Dyerville, is lost because it was destroyed in
the big flood of 1964 and never rebuilt.

If that's the Emerald Triangle that I've heard of, I guess cash crops
are obscuring some of the terrain.

[David Kleinecke]

Post by Adam Funk

Post by David Kleinecke

Post by Adam Funk
I've seen the "humps & bumps" of DMVs (deserted mediæval villages) but
not C.19 ones. I remember seeing an interesting article (in National
Geographic?) with photos of a deserted town in New England that had
been taken over by woodland so that roughly 100 years later it was
difficult to find (& eerie).

Here is the Emerald Triangle we have lots of lost towns. Lost,
that is, in the sense of there is nothing there even though there
was a town. Most of these lost towns were company milling
towns - some so temporary that the houses were built on sledges
that could be hauled to another location. One, however, with the
improbable name of Centerville was a seaport. There is nothing
left of Centerville except a cross memorializing an 1860 ship
wreck. One town, Dyerville, is lost because it was destroyed in
the big flood of 1964 and never rebuilt.

If that's the Emerald Triangle that I've heard of, I guess cash crops
are obscuring some of the terrain.

Timbering is almost dead and the principle cash crop is
indeed weed. But everybody is on pins and needles about
what legalized weed will bring. There is concern about
"cannabis tourism". If the Central Valley is filled with
big company pot farms how will the little guy survive.
Can we operate boutique marijuana stores?

But with legal marijuana growing perhaps now we can
eradicate the illegal operations that are damaging our
forests. This may not be too easy because one or another
of the Mexican Cartels seems to be behind the worst
offenders and they don't play fair.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by David Kleinecke

Post by Adam Funk

Post by David Kleinecke

Post by Adam Funk
I've seen the "humps & bumps" of DMVs (deserted mediæval villages) but
not C.19 ones. I remember seeing an interesting article (in National
Geographic?) with photos of a deserted town in New England that had
been taken over by woodland so that roughly 100 years later it was
difficult to find (& eerie).

Here is the Emerald Triangle we have lots of lost towns. Lost,
that is, in the sense of there is nothing there even though there
was a town. Most of these lost towns were company milling
towns - some so temporary that the houses were built on sledges
that could be hauled to another location. One, however, with the
improbable name of Centerville was a seaport. There is nothing
left of Centerville except a cross memorializing an 1860 ship
wreck. One town, Dyerville, is lost because it was destroyed in
the big flood of 1964 and never rebuilt.

If that's the Emerald Triangle that I've heard of, I guess cash crops
are obscuring some of the terrain.

Timbering is almost dead and the principle cash crop is
indeed weed. But everybody is on pins and needles about
what legalized weed will bring. There is concern about
"cannabis tourism". If the Central Valley is filled with
big company pot farms how will the little guy survive.
Can we operate boutique marijuana stores?
But with legal marijuana growing perhaps now we can
eradicate the illegal operations that are damaging our
forests. This may not be too easy because one or another
of the Mexican Cartels seems to be behind the worst
offenders and they don't play fair.

But how can e.g. the tobacco companies get involved, if they can't legally put
any of the proceeds in a (Federally chartered/insured) bank?

[David Kleinecke]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by David Kleinecke

Post by Adam Funk

Post by David Kleinecke

Post by Adam Funk
I've seen the "humps & bumps" of DMVs (deserted mediæval villages) but
not C.19 ones. I remember seeing an interesting article (in National
Geographic?) with photos of a deserted town in New England that had
been taken over by woodland so that roughly 100 years later it was
difficult to find (& eerie).

Here is the Emerald Triangle we have lots of lost towns. Lost,
that is, in the sense of there is nothing there even though there
was a town. Most of these lost towns were company milling
towns - some so temporary that the houses were built on sledges
that could be hauled to another location. One, however, with the
improbable name of Centerville was a seaport. There is nothing
left of Centerville except a cross memorializing an 1860 ship
wreck. One town, Dyerville, is lost because it was destroyed in
the big flood of 1964 and never rebuilt.

If that's the Emerald Triangle that I've heard of, I guess cash crops
are obscuring some of the terrain.

Timbering is almost dead and the principle cash crop is
indeed weed. But everybody is on pins and needles about
what legalized weed will bring. There is concern about
"cannabis tourism". If the Central Valley is filled with
big company pot farms how will the little guy survive.
Can we operate boutique marijuana stores?
But with legal marijuana growing perhaps now we can
eradicate the illegal operations that are damaging our
forests. This may not be too easy because one or another
of the Mexican Cartels seems to be behind the worst
offenders and they don't play fair.

But how can e.g. the tobacco companies get involved, if they can't legally put
any of the proceeds in a (Federally chartered/insured) bank?

As nearly as I can tell everybody expects legalized cannabis at
the Federal level in the near future, But I feel sure that,
were they still barred from Federally approved banks, they
would find a way.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by David Kleinecke

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by David Kleinecke
But with legal marijuana growing perhaps now we can
eradicate the illegal operations that are damaging our
forests. This may not be too easy because one or another
of the Mexican Cartels seems to be behind the worst
offenders and they don't play fair.

But how can e.g. the tobacco companies get involved, if they can't legally put
any of the proceeds in a (Federally chartered/insured) bank?

As nearly as I can tell everybody expects legalized cannabis at
the Federal level in the near future, But I feel sure that,
were they still barred from Federally approved banks, they
would find a way.

Wow. California (your "everyone") is wackier than we thought.

Or has an odd definition of "near."

[Tony Cooper]

On Mon, 25 Sep 2017 20:15:04 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by David Kleinecke

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by David Kleinecke
But with legal marijuana growing perhaps now we can
eradicate the illegal operations that are damaging our
forests. This may not be too easy because one or another
of the Mexican Cartels seems to be behind the worst
offenders and they don't play fair.

But how can e.g. the tobacco companies get involved, if they can't legally put
any of the proceeds in a (Federally chartered/insured) bank?

As nearly as I can tell everybody expects legalized cannabis at
the Federal level in the near future, But I feel sure that,
were they still barred from Federally approved banks, they
would find a way.

Wow. California (your "everyone") is wackier than we thought.
Or has an odd definition of "near."

Maybe, maybe not. What is holding legislation back to remove the
federal restrictions on banks accepting deposits from the proceeds of
(state) legalized cannabis is that this would mean federal acceptance
of cannabis. That's not on the Republican agenda.

However, there's a *great* deal of money involved, and the banks want
at it. The banking industry is a powerful one, and they are willing
to spend money to bribe...err, support the political campaigns
of...congresspeople.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Mon, 25 Sep 2017 20:15:04 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by David Kleinecke

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by David Kleinecke
But with legal marijuana growing perhaps now we can
eradicate the illegal operations that are damaging our
forests. This may not be too easy because one or another
of the Mexican Cartels seems to be behind the worst
offenders and they don't play fair.

But how can e.g. the tobacco companies get involved, if they can't legally put
any of the proceeds in a (Federally chartered/insured) bank?

As nearly as I can tell everybody expects legalized cannabis at
the Federal level in the near future, But I feel sure that,
were they still barred from Federally approved banks, they
would find a way.

Wow. California (your "everyone") is wackier than we thought.
Or has an odd definition of "near."

Maybe, maybe not. What is holding legislation back to remove the
federal restrictions on banks accepting deposits from the proceeds of
(state) legalized cannabis is that this would mean federal acceptance
of cannabis. That's not on the Republican agenda.
However, there's a *great* deal of money involved, and the banks want
at it. The banking industry is a powerful one, and they are willing
to spend money to bribe...err, support the political campaigns
of...congresspeople.

of Democrats???

[Richard Yates]

On Mon, 25 Sep 2017 14:18:27 -0700 (PDT), David Kleinecke

Post by David Kleinecke

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by David Kleinecke

Post by Adam Funk

Post by David Kleinecke

Post by Adam Funk
I've seen the "humps & bumps" of DMVs (deserted mediæval villages) but
not C.19 ones. I remember seeing an interesting article (in National
Geographic?) with photos of a deserted town in New England that had
been taken over by woodland so that roughly 100 years later it was
difficult to find (& eerie).

Here is the Emerald Triangle we have lots of lost towns. Lost,
that is, in the sense of there is nothing there even though there
was a town. Most of these lost towns were company milling
towns - some so temporary that the houses were built on sledges
that could be hauled to another location. One, however, with the
improbable name of Centerville was a seaport. There is nothing
left of Centerville except a cross memorializing an 1860 ship
wreck. One town, Dyerville, is lost because it was destroyed in
the big flood of 1964 and never rebuilt.

If that's the Emerald Triangle that I've heard of, I guess cash crops
are obscuring some of the terrain.

Timbering is almost dead and the principle cash crop is
indeed weed. But everybody is on pins and needles about
what legalized weed will bring. There is concern about
"cannabis tourism". If the Central Valley is filled with
big company pot farms how will the little guy survive.
Can we operate boutique marijuana stores?
But with legal marijuana growing perhaps now we can
eradicate the illegal operations that are damaging our
forests. This may not be too easy because one or another
of the Mexican Cartels seems to be behind the worst
offenders and they don't play fair.

But how can e.g. the tobacco companies get involved, if they can't legally put
any of the proceeds in a (Federally chartered/insured) bank?

As nearly as I can tell everybody expects legalized cannabis at
the Federal level in the near future, But I feel sure that,
were they still barred from Federally approved banks, they
would find a way.

There are at last a couple dozen small retail cannabis outlets in this
city of 100,000. At two years since legalization, I have not noticed
any closing.

Some have military discounts, senior discounts and local delivery.

http://www.yatesguitar.com/misc/PotAd.mp4

[occam]

Post by David Kleinecke

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by David Kleinecke

Post by Adam Funk

Post by David Kleinecke

Post by Adam Funk
I've seen the "humps & bumps" of DMVs (deserted mediæval villages) but
not C.19 ones. I remember seeing an interesting article (in National
Geographic?) with photos of a deserted town in New England that had
been taken over by woodland so that roughly 100 years later it was
difficult to find (& eerie).

Here is the Emerald Triangle we have lots of lost towns. Lost,
that is, in the sense of there is nothing there even though there
was a town. Most of these lost towns were company milling
towns - some so temporary that the houses were built on sledges
that could be hauled to another location. One, however, with the
improbable name of Centerville was a seaport. There is nothing
left of Centerville except a cross memorializing an 1860 ship
wreck. One town, Dyerville, is lost because it was destroyed in
the big flood of 1964 and never rebuilt.

If that's the Emerald Triangle that I've heard of, I guess cash crops
are obscuring some of the terrain.

Timbering is almost dead and the principle cash crop is
indeed weed. But everybody is on pins and needles about
what legalized weed will bring. There is concern about
"cannabis tourism". If the Central Valley is filled with
big company pot farms how will the little guy survive.
Can we operate boutique marijuana stores?
But with legal marijuana growing perhaps now we can
eradicate the illegal operations that are damaging our
forests. This may not be too easy because one or another
of the Mexican Cartels seems to be behind the worst
offenders and they don't play fair.

But how can e.g. the tobacco companies get involved, if they can't legally put
any of the proceeds in a (Federally chartered/insured) bank?

As nearly as I can tell everybody expects legalized cannabis at
the Federal level in the near future, But I feel sure that,
were they still barred from Federally approved banks, they
would find a way.

Eurika! No, I have no solution to the problem of Federally approved
banks. I'm referring to the largest town in the 'Emerald Triangle',
which I'd not heard of until now. Let's hope it does not develop the
reputation of the other triangle, around Bermuda, with lots of lost
souls no one ever hears from again.

[David Kleinecke]

Post by occam

Post by David Kleinecke

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by David Kleinecke

Post by Adam Funk

Post by David Kleinecke

Post by Adam Funk
I've seen the "humps & bumps" of DMVs (deserted mediæval villages) but
not C.19 ones. I remember seeing an interesting article (in National
Geographic?) with photos of a deserted town in New England that had
been taken over by woodland so that roughly 100 years later it was
difficult to find (& eerie).

Here is the Emerald Triangle we have lots of lost towns. Lost,
that is, in the sense of there is nothing there even though there
was a town. Most of these lost towns were company milling
towns - some so temporary that the houses were built on sledges
that could be hauled to another location. One, however, with the
improbable name of Centerville was a seaport. There is nothing
left of Centerville except a cross memorializing an 1860 ship
wreck. One town, Dyerville, is lost because it was destroyed in
the big flood of 1964 and never rebuilt.

If that's the Emerald Triangle that I've heard of, I guess cash crops
are obscuring some of the terrain.

Timbering is almost dead and the principle cash crop is
indeed weed. But everybody is on pins and needles about
what legalized weed will bring. There is concern about
"cannabis tourism". If the Central Valley is filled with
big company pot farms how will the little guy survive.
Can we operate boutique marijuana stores?
But with legal marijuana growing perhaps now we can
eradicate the illegal operations that are damaging our
forests. This may not be too easy because one or another
of the Mexican Cartels seems to be behind the worst
offenders and they don't play fair.

But how can e.g. the tobacco companies get involved, if they can't legally put
any of the proceeds in a (Federally chartered/insured) bank?

As nearly as I can tell everybody expects legalized cannabis at
the Federal level in the near future, But I feel sure that,
were they still barred from Federally approved banks, they
would find a way.

Eurika! No, I have no solution to the problem of Federally approved
banks. I'm referring to the largest town in the 'Emerald Triangle',
which I'd not heard of until now. Let's hope it does not develop the
reputation of the other triangle, around Bermuda, with lots of lost
souls no one ever hears from again.

Eureka!

If you want to see hippies today I suggest a visit to the
Arcata Farmer's Market some Saturday. Many colorful
characters gather in the town square around the statue of
William McKinley. (Arcata is Eureka's Oakland). Also we have
another threesome - a triple convergence where three plates
come together - and so lots of earthquakes.

[b***@shaw.ca]

Post by David Kleinecke

Post by Adam Funk

Post by David Kleinecke

Post by Adam Funk
I've seen the "humps & bumps" of DMVs (deserted mediæval villages) but
not C.19 ones. I remember seeing an interesting article (in National
Geographic?) with photos of a deserted town in New England that had
been taken over by woodland so that roughly 100 years later it was
difficult to find (& eerie).

Here is the Emerald Triangle we have lots of lost towns. Lost,
that is, in the sense of there is nothing there even though there
was a town. Most of these lost towns were company milling
towns - some so temporary that the houses were built on sledges
that could be hauled to another location. One, however, with the
improbable name of Centerville was a seaport. There is nothing
left of Centerville except a cross memorializing an 1860 ship
wreck. One town, Dyerville, is lost because it was destroyed in
the big flood of 1964 and never rebuilt.

If that's the Emerald Triangle that I've heard of, I guess cash crops
are obscuring some of the terrain.

Timbering is almost dead and the principle cash crop is
indeed weed. But everybody is on pins and needles about
what legalized weed will bring. There is concern about
"cannabis tourism". If the Central Valley is filled with
big company pot farms how will the little guy survive.
Can we operate boutique marijuana stores?

We have had legal medical marijuana in Canada for several years. The legal suppliers are mainly running hydroponic/grow-light operations in former industrial buildings -- one is in an old chocolate factory -- with lots of security and high fences around them. I think it is very unlikely that any legal suppliers will grow weed in open fields, given the obvious temptation to sneak in at night and harvest a few plants, or even a truckload.

Post by David Kleinecke
But with legal marijuana growing perhaps now we can
eradicate the illegal operations that are damaging our
forests. This may not be too easy because one or another
of the Mexican Cartels seems to be behind the worst
offenders and they don't play fair.

That was always the best argument for legalization/decriminalization. What has happened here is that many privately owned marijuana "dispensaries" -- storefronts -- have sprung up in the larger cities, especially Vancouver. They are technically illegal but partly regulated by municipal governments as to having business licences, how close they can be to schools, who they can sell to, etc. This situation came about because the federal government has undertaken to legalize marijuana nationwide, starting some time next year. So in most places there is little police enforcement.

The dispensaries are supplied by illegal growers, with quite a bit of involvement by organized crime, the traditional underground suppliers. There is no final model yet for who can sell and grow once it is legal, and it is not clear at this time that organized crime will be taken out of the loop. I don't think they will go willingly.

bill

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

Post by occam
"A "lost" portrait by Flemish artist Peter Paul Rubens has been
rediscovered after almost 400 years.
<snip>
It was in Glasgow Museums' collection and on public display at the
city's Pollok House stately home. "
Is there no better word than "lost" here? (I understand the quotes
imply it was not really lost, just "lost".)
Clearly someone, somewhere 'lost track of' the painting. By all accounts
the true significance of the painting was forgotten. But to link
"forget" with "to lose" is a big step. If I forget a friend's name, have
I "lost" him?
http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-41373007

It was "lost" in the sense that people knew that such a painting had
been produced by Rubens but that nobody knew where it was. The people
who had it in Glasgow Museum did not recognise it as a painting by
Rubens. As the article says "overpainting and centuries of dirt meant it
was thought to be a later copy by another artist".

[Quinn C]

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by occam
"A "lost" portrait by Flemish artist Peter Paul Rubens has been
rediscovered after almost 400 years.
<snip>
It was in Glasgow Museums' collection and on public display at the
city's Pollok House stately home. "
Is there no better word than "lost" here? (I understand the quotes
imply it was not really lost, just "lost".)
Clearly someone, somewhere 'lost track of' the painting. By all accounts
the true significance of the painting was forgotten. But to link
"forget" with "to lose" is a big step. If I forget a friend's name, have
I "lost" him?

It's not so much like forgetting their name. More like not having
any contact information whatsoever, not having spoken to them in
years, plus not even recognizing them in a casual encounter on the
subway, with the beard and extra wrinkles they acquired by now.

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by occam
http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-41373007

It was "lost" in the sense that people knew that such a painting had
been produced by Rubens but that nobody knew where it was. The people
who had it in Glasgow Museum did not recognise it as a painting by
Rubens. As the article says "overpainting and centuries of dirt meant it
was thought to be a later copy by another artist".

Yes, that's how I understand it. Nobody ever went to the Pollok
house, pointed at the painting and said: "there, that painting,
it's lost."

A little more precisely it was a painting thought to be lost.

[RH Draney]

Post by occam
Clearly someone, somewhere 'lost track of' the painting. By all accounts
the true significance of the painting was forgotten. But to link
"forget" with "to lose" is a big step. If I forget a friend's name, have
I "lost" him?

"I lost my job today. I mean, I didn't actually *lose* my job. I know
where my job is. It's just that when I go there, there's this new guy
doin' it."
-- Bobcat Goldthwait (later in the monologue, he repeats the same
sequence of sentences, but with "job" replaced by "girlfriend")

....r

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by RH Draney

Post by occam
Clearly someone, somewhere 'lost track of' the painting. By all accounts
the true significance of the painting was forgotten. But to link
"forget" with "to lose" is a big step. If I forget a friend's name, have
I "lost" him?

"I lost my job today. I mean, I didn't actually *lose* my job. I know
where my job is. It's just that when I go there, there's this new guy
doin' it."
-- Bobcat Goldthwait (later in the monologue, he repeats the same
sequence of sentences, but with "job" replaced by "girlfriend")

"There's this new guy doin' her"? That's a different thread.

[RH Draney]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by RH Draney

Post by occam
Clearly someone, somewhere 'lost track of' the painting. By all accounts
the true significance of the painting was forgotten. But to link
"forget" with "to lose" is a big step. If I forget a friend's name, have
I "lost" him?

"I lost my job today. I mean, I didn't actually *lose* my job. I know
where my job is. It's just that when I go there, there's this new guy
doin' it."
-- Bobcat Goldthwait (later in the monologue, he repeats the same
sequence of sentences, but with "job" replaced by "girlfriend")

"There's this new guy doin' her"? That's a different thread.

Nope, "doin' it", just like with the job....r

[Dingbat]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by RH Draney

Post by occam
Clearly someone, somewhere 'lost track of' the painting. By all accounts
the true significance of the painting was forgotten. But to link
"forget" with "to lose" is a big step. If I forget a friend's name, have
I "lost" him?

"I lost my job today. I mean, I didn't actually *lose* my job. I know
where my job is. It's just that when I go there, there's this new guy
doin' it."
-- Bobcat Goldthwait (later in the monologue, he repeats the same
sequence of sentences, but with "job" replaced by "girlfriend")

"There's this new guy doin' her"? That's a different thread.

That goes with the job:-)

IOW, it's still a job:->

[Quinn C]

Post by Dingbat

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by RH Draney

Post by occam
Clearly someone, somewhere 'lost track of' the painting. By all accounts
the true significance of the painting was forgotten. But to link
"forget" with "to lose" is a big step. If I forget a friend's name, have
I "lost" him?

"I lost my job today. I mean, I didn't actually *lose* my job. I know
where my job is. It's just that when I go there, there's this new guy
doin' it."
-- Bobcat Goldthwait (later in the monologue, he repeats the same
sequence of sentences, but with "job" replaced by "girlfriend")

"There's this new guy doin' her"? That's a different thread.

That goes with the job:-)
IOW, it's still a job:->

Do you find that it's work?

Anyway, both are a role.

[Dingbat]

Post by occam
"A "lost" portrait by Flemish artist Peter Paul Rubens has been
rediscovered after almost 400 years.
<snip>
It was in Glasgow Museums' collection and on public display at the
city's Pollok House stately home. "
Is there no better word than "lost" here? (I understand the quotes
imply it was not really lost, just "lost".)

Would "found painting" be idiomatic?
There's an idiom "found money":
http://idioms.thefreedictionary.com/found+money

Post by occam
Clearly someone, somewhere 'lost track of' the painting. By all accounts
the true significance of the painting was forgotten. But to link
"forget" with "to lose" is a big step. If I forget a friend's name, have
I "lost" him?
http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-41373007