Discussion:
like your late father
(too old to reply)
a***@gmail.com
2018-07-10 07:55:51 UTC
Permalink
1) I am sure that you will be loyal to us like your late father.
2) I am sure that you, just like your late father, will be loyal to us.


Are both grammatical?

Are they idiomatic?


Gratefully,
Navi
Harrison Hill
2018-07-10 10:24:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@gmail.com
1) I am sure that you will be loyal to us like your late father.
2) I am sure that you, just like your late father, will be loyal to us.
Are both grammatical?
Are they idiomatic?
In the formal (and unlikely) setting that would prompt such
sentences to be uttered, they are idiomatic - and they are certainly
grammatical.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-07-10 12:16:47 UTC
Permalink
Post by a***@gmail.com
1) I am sure that you will be loyal to us like your late father.
2) I am sure that you, just like your late father, will be loyal to us.
Are both grammatical?
What could possibly not be grammatical?
Post by a***@gmail.com
Are they idiomatic?
Why not? (1) of course is ambiguous, (2) is not.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-07-23 13:03:33 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by a***@gmail.com
1) I am sure that you will be loyal to us like your late father.
2) I am sure that you, just like your late father, will be loyal to us.
Are both grammatical?
What could possibly not be grammatical?
Post by a***@gmail.com
Are they idiomatic?
Why not? (1) of course is ambiguous, (2) is not.
As Isabelle has been seen here recently, maybe she can offer a
rationale why "feu", the French for "late", behaves so oddly. Uniquely
(I believe) among French adjectives, it precedes the possessive, thus
"feu votre père", not "votre feu père" or "votre père feu".
--
athel
the Omrud
2018-07-23 15:07:18 UTC
Permalink
As Isabelle has been seen here recently, maybe she can offer a rationale
why "feu", the French for "late", behaves so oddly. Uniquely (I believe)
among French adjectives, it precedes the possessive, thus "feu votre
père", not "votre feu père" or "votre père feu".
That's a new one on me.

This site says that the adjective goes where we expect, but the word is
acting as an adverb when placed before the posessive.

http://www.french-linguistics.co.uk/dictionary/feu.html

I can't decide whether that makes sense or not.
--
David
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-07-23 15:50:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by the Omrud
As Isabelle has been seen here recently, maybe she can offer a rationale
why "feu", the French for "late", behaves so oddly. Uniquely (I believe)
among French adjectives, it precedes the possessive, thus "feu votre
père", not "votre feu père" or "votre père feu".
That's a new one on me.
This site says that the adjective goes where we expect, but the word is
acting as an adverb when placed before the posessive.
http://www.french-linguistics.co.uk/dictionary/feu.html
I can't decide whether that makes sense or not.
I think it does. It's similar to the way 'deceased' is used in
English.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-07-23 16:18:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by the Omrud
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
As Isabelle has been seen here recently, maybe she can offer a
rationale> > why "feu", the French for "late", behaves so oddly.
Uniquely (I believe)> > among French adjectives, it precedes the
possessive, thus "feu votre> > père", not "votre feu père" or "votre
père feu".
That's a new one on me.
This site says that the adjective goes where we expect, but the word
is> acting as an adverb when placed before the posessive.
http://www.french-linguistics.co.uk/dictionary/feu.html
I can't decide whether that makes sense or not.
I think it does. It's similar to the way 'deceased' is used in
English.
Really? "Deceased your father*"?
--
athel
Madrigal Gurneyhalt
2018-07-23 16:22:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
Post by the Omrud
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
As Isabelle has been seen here recently, maybe she can offer a
rationale> > why "feu", the French for "late", behaves so oddly.
Uniquely (I believe)> > among French adjectives, it precedes the
possessive, thus "feu votre> > père", not "votre feu père" or "votre
père feu".
That's a new one on me.
This site says that the adjective goes where we expect, but the word
is> acting as an adverb when placed before the posessive.
http://www.french-linguistics.co.uk/dictionary/feu.html
I can't decide whether that makes sense or not.
I think it does. It's similar to the way 'deceased' is used in
English.
Really? "Deceased your father*"?
I said similar, not identical!
Peter T. Daniels
2018-07-23 16:38:25 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by a***@gmail.com
1) I am sure that you will be loyal to us like your late father.
2) I am sure that you, just like your late father, will be loyal to us.
Are both grammatical?
What could possibly not be grammatical?
Post by a***@gmail.com
Are they idiomatic?
Why not? (1) of course is ambiguous, (2) is not.
As Isabelle has been seen here recently, maybe she can offer a
rationale why "feu", the French for "late", behaves so oddly. Uniquely
(I believe) among French adjectives, it precedes the possessive, thus
"feu votre père", not "votre feu père" or "votre père feu".
I remember learning that a handful of adjectives have a different meaning
if they precede their noun, but I don't remember what any of them are.
Lanarcam
2018-07-23 16:40:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by a***@gmail.com
1) I am sure that you will be loyal to us like your late father.
2) I am sure that you, just like your late father, will be loyal to us.
Are both grammatical?
What could possibly not be grammatical?
Post by a***@gmail.com
Are they idiomatic?
Why not? (1) of course is ambiguous, (2) is not.
As Isabelle has been seen here recently, maybe she can offer a
rationale why "feu", the French for "late", behaves so oddly. Uniquely
(I believe) among French adjectives, it precedes the possessive, thus
"feu votre père", not "votre feu père" or "votre père feu".
I remember learning that a handful of adjectives have a different meaning
if they precede their noun, but I don't remember what any of them are.
"Grand homme", "homme grand" for instance.
the Omrud
2018-07-23 17:59:36 UTC
Permalink
Post by Lanarcam
Post by Peter T. Daniels
On 2018-07-10 14:16:47 +0200, "Peter T. Daniels"
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by a***@gmail.com
1) I am sure that you will be loyal to us like your late father.
2) I am sure that you, just like your late father, will be loyal to us.
Are both grammatical?
What could possibly not be grammatical?
Post by a***@gmail.com
Are they idiomatic?
Why not? (1) of course is ambiguous, (2) is not.
As Isabelle has been seen here recently, maybe she can offer a
rationale why "feu", the French for "late", behaves so oddly. Uniquely
(I believe) among French adjectives, it precedes the possessive, thus
"feu votre père", not "votre feu père" or "votre père feu".
I remember learning that a handful of adjectives have a different meaning
if they precede their noun, but I don't remember what any of them are.
"Grand homme", "homme grand" for instance.
Also "ancien", which sometimes throws me for a moment.
--
David
Peter Moylan
2018-07-23 23:39:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by the Omrud
Post by Lanarcam
On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 9:01:40 AM UTC-4, Athel
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
As Isabelle has been seen here recently, maybe she can offer a
rationale why "feu", the French for "late", behaves so oddly.
Uniquely (I believe) among French adjectives, it precedes the
possessive, thus "feu votre père", not "votre feu père" or
"votre père feu".
I remember learning that a handful of adjectives have a different
meaning if they precede their noun, but I don't remember what
any of them are.
"Grand homme", "homme grand" for instance.
Also "ancien", which sometimes throws me for a moment.
As I recall it, such examples generally involve a few common adjectives.
Athel's example is a horse of a different colour, which contradicts the
known fact that all horses have the same colour.

The idea that "feu" can function as an adverb in some situations, which
of course allows it to move to a different part of the sentence, makes
sense to me. After all, English has plenty of examples of words which
can be adjectives in some situations and adverbs in others.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Peter T. Daniels
2018-07-24 02:56:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter Moylan
Post by the Omrud
Post by Lanarcam
On Monday, July 23, 2018 at 9:01:40 AM UTC-4, Athel
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
As Isabelle has been seen here recently, maybe she can offer a
rationale why "feu", the French for "late", behaves so oddly.
Uniquely (I believe) among French adjectives, it precedes the
possessive, thus "feu votre père", not "votre feu père" or
"votre père feu".
I remember learning that a handful of adjectives have a different
meaning if they precede their noun, but I don't remember what
any of them are.
"Grand homme", "homme grand" for instance.
Also "ancien", which sometimes throws me for a moment.
As I recall it, such examples generally involve a few common adjectives.
Athel's example is a horse of a different colour, which contradicts the
known fact that all horses have the same colour.
The idea that "feu" can function as an adverb in some situations, which
of course allows it to move to a different part of the sentence, makes
sense to me. After all, English has plenty of examples of words which
can be adjectives in some situations and adverbs in others.
(Which helps explain why the Greek-based category "adverb" isn't a useful
term in analyzing English grammar; the category might as well be called
"miscellaneous." "Adverbs" are better considered to include three or four
different "parts of speech" in English.)

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