Boring

[Flop]

There have been times when comments have been made about the lack of
messages.

Having just caught up with the last few days worth, I am amazed that,
although there are plenty of messages, a very large majority are OT.

Listening to TA, I can understand why. Plots are in 'tickover' mode with
nothing novel and most are cyclic. Everyone argues with everyone else.
No one actually does anything.

Think of all the recent plot lines (eg Lynda with the dogs) and rate
them on an 'exciting' scale.

I know that it is not Eastenders but even so.....

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Post by Flop
There have been times when comments have been made about the lack of
messages.
Having just caught up with the last few days worth, I am amazed that,
although there are plenty of messages, a very large majority are OT.
Listening to TA, I can understand why. Plots are in 'tickover' mode
with nothing novel and most are cyclic. Everyone argues with everyone
else. No one actually does anything.
Think of all the recent plot lines (eg Lynda with the dogs) and rate
them on an 'exciting' scale.
I know that it is not Eastenders but even so.....

The SWs can't win; when they put too much in, they're criticised for
being _too_ Eastenders-like.
Somerats have sometimes expressed a _desire_ for the odd episode where
nothing important happens.
Besides, things are bubbling under - the ShAlistair marriage, whatever
Brian is plotting, ... they are proceeding at a believable speed. (And
will Pip be "showing" yet? I've lost track of the timescale there - how
far along is she?)

[Serena Blanchflower]

Post by Flop
There have been times when comments have been made about the lack of
messages.
Having just caught up with the last few days worth, I am amazed that,
although there are plenty of messages, a very large majority are OT.
Listening to TA, I can understand why. Plots are in 'tickover' mode with
nothing novel and most are cyclic. Everyone argues with everyone else.
No one actually does anything.
Think of all the recent plot lines (eg Lynda with the dogs) and rate
them on an 'exciting' scale.
I know that it is not Eastenders but even so.....

For me, it isn't the fact that nothing much is happening that's the
problem, it's the relentless negativity of it all which is making me
question whether I really want to listen to this.

It's fine when there are patches where nothing dramatic is happening and
life is bimbling on happily, as usual. At the moment, TA is a mix of
major painful turmoil, such as Nic, Home Farm, and Shula & Alistair's
marriage - all painful, with those families who aren't being torn apart
being generally miserable and uncomfortable.

Even those stories which should, on paper, be happy - such as Pip's
pregnancy are only mentioned when there are worries or problems to be
raised. We aren't allowed to simply share in any of the joys of life
which, I hope, some residents are enjoying.

[Btms]

Serena Blanchflower <***@blanchflower.me.uk> wrote:
....
Snipped.

Post by Serena Blanchflower
Even those stories which should, on paper, be happy - such as Pip's
pregnancy are only mentioned when there are worries or problems to be
raised. We aren't allowed to simply share in any of the joys of life
which, I hope, some residents are enjoying.

Quite.

[Steve Hague]

Post by Btms
....
Snipped.

Post by Serena Blanchflower
Even those stories which should, on paper, be happy - such as Pip's
pregnancy are only mentioned when there are worries or problems to be
raised. We aren't allowed to simply share in any of the joys of life
which, I hope, some residents are enjoying.

Quite.

The days of the Grundys providing comedy relief seem to be long gone. In
fact the days of anyone providing comedy relief appear to be long gone.
It's become an everyday story of depressing people.
Steve.

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

[krw]

Post by Steve Hague

Post by Btms
....
Snipped.

Post by Serena Blanchflower
Even those stories which should, on paper, be happy - such as Pip's
pregnancy are only mentioned when there are worries or problems to be
raised.  We aren't allowed to simply share in any of the joys of life
which, I hope, some residents are enjoying.

Quite.

The days of the Grundys providing comedy relief seem to be long gone. In
fact the days of anyone providing comedy relief appear to be long gone.
It's become an everyday story of depressing people.
Steve.
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

The real problem is that this a programme about the Archers and for far
too long that seems to mean Bridge Farm and Home Farm. Little LL,
little Bull, huge amounts of unfunny Grundies, and doom and gloom at the
Stables.

[Vicky]

Post by Btms
....
Snipped.

Post by Serena Blanchflower
Even those stories which should, on paper, be happy - such as Pip's
pregnancy are only mentioned when there are worries or problems to be
raised. We aren't allowed to simply share in any of the joys of life
which, I hope, some residents are enjoying.

Quite.

Well, Fallon and Harrison are happyish. Freddy is being good, but
with an underlying nasty story. Neis and Susan are happy enough for
now. There is quite a bit happening in the world of farming,
according to other programmes. I would very much like to hear more of
that in TA. We know Sws sometimes look here and we suspect take
storylines. Can we give them suggestions? Perhaps those who have
twitter links with them can then take those to there.

Diversifying line: Helen is already using goats' milk for some things.
What else could she produce and sell? Who might help her?

Adam needs to go into new areas because of whatever Brian does. More
things in polytunnels? And who can replace the EU workers who will no
longer come?

[Btms]

Post by Vicky

Post by Btms
....
Snipped.

Post by Serena Blanchflower
Even those stories which should, on paper, be happy - such as Pip's
pregnancy are only mentioned when there are worries or problems to be
raised. We aren't allowed to simply share in any of the joys of life
which, I hope, some residents are enjoying.

Quite.

Well, Fallon and Harrison are happyish. Freddy is being good, but
with an underlying nasty story. Neis and Susan are happy enough for
now. There is quite a bit happening in the world of farming,
according to other programmes. I would very much like to hear more of
that in TA. We know Sws sometimes look here and we suspect take
storylines. Can we give them suggestions? Perhaps those who have
twitter links with them can then take those to there.
Diversifying line: Helen is already using goats' milk for some things.
What else could she produce and sell? Who might help her?
Adam needs to go into new areas because of whatever Brian does. More
things in polytunnels? And who can replace the EU workers who will no
longer come?

Iirc the EU workers came before the EU, so they will continue to come.
Ukrainians come here and they are not EU. We have lots of ME stable boys
here; they are not EU(though some ugly rumours about their employment) for
example.

[Jenny M Benson]

Post by Btms
We have lots of ME stable boys
here;

Such physically demanding must be difficult for them.

[Serena Blanchflower]

Post by Jenny M Benson

Post by Btms
We have lots of ME stable boys
here;

Such physically demanding must be difficult for them.

Where's that "Like" button when it's wanted?

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message
<732797973.546964815.296431.poppy-***@news.eternal-september.o
rg>, Btms <***@thetames.me.uk> writes:
[]

Post by Btms
Ukrainians come here and they are not EU. We have lots of ME stable boys
here; they are not EU(though some ugly rumours about their employment) for
example.

What, rumours of cruelty to Hobbits?

[Btms]

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In message
[]

Post by Btms
Ukrainians come here and they are not EU. We have lots of ME stable boys
here; they are not EU(though some ugly rumours about their employment) for
example.

What, rumours of cruelty to Hobbits?

Slavery is not amusing.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message

Post by Btms

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In message
[]

Post by Btms
Ukrainians come here and they are not EU. We have lots of ME stable boys
here; they are not EU(though some ugly rumours about their employment) for
example.

What, rumours of cruelty to Hobbits?

Slavery is not amusing.

Serena too found the use of an unusual abbreviation worth commenting on;
both of us chose to do so by the usual UMRA method of gentle joshing
(deliberate misunderstanding of the unfamiliar term). I'm sure neither
of us condone slavery.

What _did_ you mean by ME - middle eastern was my best guess, but I tend
to think of that as meaning the Arab countries, so I wasn't sure.

[Serena Blanchflower]

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Serena too found the use of an unusual abbreviation worth commenting on;
both of us chose to do so by the usual UMRA method of gentle joshing
(deliberate misunderstanding of the unfamiliar term). I'm sure neither
of us condone slavery.

For me, ME to mean Middle East, wasn't unfamiliar and I understood what
BTMS meant but when I see ME, my immediate association is Myalgic
Encephalomyelitis. I assume the same is true for Jenny, who originally
made that joke.


It took quite a bit of thought to work out where your hobbit reference
came from.

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
What _did_ you mean by ME - middle eastern was my best guess, but I tend
to think of that as meaning the Arab countries, so I wasn't sure.

As Dubai is a major centre for racing, I would assume that that's
exactly what BTMS meant.

[Btms]

Post by Serena Blanchflower

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Serena too found the use of an unusual abbreviation worth commenting on;
both of us chose to do so by the usual UMRA method of gentle joshing
(deliberate misunderstanding of the unfamiliar term). I'm sure neither
of us condone slavery.

For me, ME to mean Middle East, wasn't unfamiliar and I understood what
BTMS meant but when I see ME, my immediate association is Myalgic
Encephalomyelitis. I assume the same is true for Jenny, who originally
made that joke.
It took quite a bit of thought to work out where your hobbit reference
came from.

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
What _did_ you mean by ME - middle eastern was my best guess, but I tend
to think of that as meaning the Arab countries, so I wasn't sure.

As Dubai is a major centre for racing, I would assume that that's
exactly what BTMS meant.

Pretty much spot on but I can’t say for sure.

[Btms]

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In message

Post by Btms

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In message
[]

Post by Btms
Ukrainians come here and they are not EU. We have lots of ME stable boys
here; they are not EU(though some ugly rumours about their employment) for
example.

What, rumours of cruelty to Hobbits?

Slavery is not amusing.

Serena too found the use of an unusual abbreviation worth commenting on;
both of us chose to do so by the usual UMRA method of gentle joshing
(deliberate misunderstanding of the unfamiliar term). I'm sure neither
of us condone slavery.
What _did_ you mean by ME - middle eastern was my best guess, but I tend
to think of that as meaning the Arab countries, so I wasn't sure.

Yes Arab countries.

[John Ashby]

Post by Btms

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In message

Post by Btms

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In message
[]

Post by Btms
Ukrainians come here and they are not EU. We have lots of ME stable boys
here; they are not EU(though some ugly rumours about their employment) for
example.

What, rumours of cruelty to Hobbits?

Slavery is not amusing.

Serena too found the use of an unusual abbreviation worth commenting on;
both of us chose to do so by the usual UMRA method of gentle joshing
(deliberate misunderstanding of the unfamiliar term). I'm sure neither
of us condone slavery.
What _did_ you mean by ME - middle eastern was my best guess, but I tend
to think of that as meaning the Arab countries, so I wasn't sure.

Yes Arab countries.

I thought it was the horses that were Arabs.

john

[Serena Blanchflower]

Post by John Ashby

Post by Btms

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In message

Post by Btms

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In message
[]

Ukrainians come here and they are not EU.  We have lots of ME
stable boys
here; they are not EU(though some ugly rumours about their employment) for
example.

What, rumours of cruelty to Hobbits?

Slavery is not amusing.

Serena too found the use of an unusual abbreviation worth commenting on;
both of us chose to do so by the usual UMRA method of gentle joshing
(deliberate misunderstanding of the unfamiliar term). I'm sure neither
of us condone slavery.
What _did_ you mean by ME - middle eastern was my best guess, but I tend
to think of that as meaning the Arab countries, so I wasn't sure.

Yes Arab countries.

I thought it was the horses that were Arabs.

I think there are a few sheiks amongst the top racehorse owners. The
horses though are thoroughbreds, not arabs although thoroughbreds do
include some arabs in their ancestry.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message

Post by Btms

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In message

Post by Btms

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In message
[]

Post by Btms
Ukrainians come here and they are not EU. We have lots of ME stable boys
here; they are not EU(though some ugly rumours about their employment) for
example.

What, rumours of cruelty to Hobbits?

Slavery is not amusing.

Serena too found the use of an unusual abbreviation worth commenting on;
both of us chose to do so by the usual UMRA method of gentle joshing
(deliberate misunderstanding of the unfamiliar term). I'm sure neither
of us condone slavery.
What _did_ you mean by ME - middle eastern was my best guess, but I tend
to think of that as meaning the Arab countries, so I wasn't sure.

Yes Arab countries.

Ah, right. It was the mention of Ukrainians that had me unsure, as I
don't think of Ukraine as ME (or Arab). Looking again at what you said,
you didn't actually say they were; it was just an adjacent sentence.

[Jenny M Benson]

Post by Vicky
And who can replace the EU workers who will no
longer come?

Can somerat explain to a simpleton in words of one sullabub why Brexit
is a problem to farmers requiring to employ seasonal workers from
overseas? If we need them, why cannot they just be allowed in, as
presumbably they were before we "went into Europe"?

[the Omrud]

Post by Jenny M Benson

Post by Vicky
And who can replace the EU workers who will no
longer come?

Can somerat explain to a simpleton in words of one sullabub why Brexit
is a problem to farmers requiring to employ seasonal workers from
overseas?  If we need them, why cannot they just be allowed in, as
presumbably they were before we "went into Europe"?

Nobody yet knows anything, but lets guess that after 2020, workers from
the EU will be subject to the same controls as the rules which currently
apply to migrant workers from outside the EU.

The current rules mean they can only get a work visa if they have a
confirmed job paying more than £30,000 per year. That blocks many
teachers, nurses, etc at the moment and will certainly exclude all farm
workers.

Any comparisons with "before we went into Europe" are meaningless. The
world has changed utterly since then.

[Btms]

Post by the Omrud

Post by Jenny M Benson

Post by Vicky
And who can replace the EU workers who will no
longer come?

Can somerat explain to a simpleton in words of one sullabub why Brexit
is a problem to farmers requiring to employ seasonal workers from
overseas?  If we need them, why cannot they just be allowed in, as
presumbably they were before we "went into Europe"?

Nobody yet knows anything, but lets guess that after 2020, workers from
the EU will be subject to the same controls as the rules which currently
apply to migrant workers from outside the EU.
The current rules mean they can only get a work visa if they have a
confirmed job paying more than £30,000 per year. That blocks many
teachers, nurses, etc at the moment and will certainly exclude all farm
workers.
Any comparisons with "before we went into Europe" are meaningless. The
world has changed utterly since then.

Surely it can change again!

[Jim Easterbrook]

Post by Btms

Post by the Omrud

Post by Jenny M Benson

And who can replace the EU workers who will no longer come?

Can somerat explain to a simpleton in words of one sullabub why Brexit
is a problem to farmers requiring to employ seasonal workers from
overseas?  If we need them, why cannot they just be allowed in, as
presumbably they were before we "went into Europe"?

Nobody yet knows anything, but lets guess that after 2020, workers from
the EU will be subject to the same controls as the rules which
currently apply to migrant workers from outside the EU.
The current rules mean they can only get a work visa if they have a
confirmed job paying more than £30,000 per year. That blocks many
teachers, nurses, etc at the moment and will certainly exclude all farm
workers.
Any comparisons with "before we went into Europe" are meaningless. The
world has changed utterly since then.

Surely it can change again!

Only if we elect a government that promises to increase immigration. The
current lot seem determined to cut immigration at the expense of
everything, from farming to hospitals to university research.

[Btms]

Post by Jim Easterbrook

Post by Btms

Post by the Omrud

Post by Jenny M Benson

And who can replace the EU workers who will no longer come?

Can somerat explain to a simpleton in words of one sullabub why Brexit
is a problem to farmers requiring to employ seasonal workers from
overseas?  If we need them, why cannot they just be allowed in, as
presumbably they were before we "went into Europe"?

Nobody yet knows anything, but lets guess that after 2020, workers from
the EU will be subject to the same controls as the rules which
currently apply to migrant workers from outside the EU.
The current rules mean they can only get a work visa if they have a
confirmed job paying more than £30,000 per year. That blocks many
teachers, nurses, etc at the moment and will certainly exclude all farm
workers.
Any comparisons with "before we went into Europe" are meaningless. The
world has changed utterly since then.

Surely it can change again!

Only if we elect a government that promises to increase immigration. The
current lot seem determined to cut immigration at the expense of
everything, from farming to hospitals to university research.

I am sure we will still welcome cheap labour to harvest the Borsetshire
strawberries.

[John Ashby]

Post by Btms

Post by Jim Easterbrook

Post by Btms

Post by the Omrud

Post by Jenny M Benson

And who can replace the EU workers who will no longer come?

Can somerat explain to a simpleton in words of one sullabub why Brexit
is a problem to farmers requiring to employ seasonal workers from
overseas?  If we need them, why cannot they just be allowed in, as
presumbably they were before we "went into Europe"?

Nobody yet knows anything, but lets guess that after 2020, workers from
the EU will be subject to the same controls as the rules which
currently apply to migrant workers from outside the EU.
The current rules mean they can only get a work visa if they have a
confirmed job paying more than £30,000 per year. That blocks many
teachers, nurses, etc at the moment and will certainly exclude all farm
workers.
Any comparisons with "before we went into Europe" are meaningless. The
world has changed utterly since then.

Surely it can change again!

Only if we elect a government that promises to increase immigration. The
current lot seem determined to cut immigration at the expense of
everything, from farming to hospitals to university research.

I am sure we will still welcome cheap labour to harvest the Borsetshire
strawberries.

Is that a euphemism for Adam and Ian's child?

john

[Btms]

Post by John Ashby

Post by Btms

Post by Jim Easterbrook

Post by Btms

Post by the Omrud

Post by Jenny M Benson

And who can replace the EU workers who will no longer come?

Can somerat explain to a simpleton in words of one sullabub why Brexit
is a problem to farmers requiring to employ seasonal workers from
overseas?  If we need them, why cannot they just be allowed in, as
presumbably they were before we "went into Europe"?

Nobody yet knows anything, but lets guess that after 2020, workers from
the EU will be subject to the same controls as the rules which
currently apply to migrant workers from outside the EU.
The current rules mean they can only get a work visa if they have a
confirmed job paying more than £30,000 per year. That blocks many
teachers, nurses, etc at the moment and will certainly exclude all farm
workers.
Any comparisons with "before we went into Europe" are meaningless. The
world has changed utterly since then.

Surely it can change again!

Only if we elect a government that promises to increase immigration. The
current lot seem determined to cut immigration at the expense of
everything, from farming to hospitals to university research.

I am sure we will still welcome cheap labour to harvest the Borsetshire
strawberries.

Is that a euphemism for Adam and Ian's child?
john

I think the labour will be courtesy of the nhs and therefore, free.

[Nick Odell]

Post by Btms

Post by Jim Easterbrook

Post by Btms

Post by the Omrud

Post by Jenny M Benson

And who can replace the EU workers who will no longer come?

Can somerat explain to a simpleton in words of one sullabub why Brexit
is a problem to farmers requiring to employ seasonal workers from
overseas?  If we need them, why cannot they just be allowed in, as
presumbably they were before we "went into Europe"?

Nobody yet knows anything, but lets guess that after 2020, workers from
the EU will be subject to the same controls as the rules which
currently apply to migrant workers from outside the EU.
The current rules mean they can only get a work visa if they have a
confirmed job paying more than £30,000 per year. That blocks many
teachers, nurses, etc at the moment and will certainly exclude all farm
workers.
Any comparisons with "before we went into Europe" are meaningless. The
world has changed utterly since then.

Surely it can change again!

Only if we elect a government that promises to increase immigration. The
current lot seem determined to cut immigration at the expense of
everything, from farming to hospitals to university research.

I am sure we will still welcome cheap labour to harvest the Borsetshire
strawberries.

When ideology and need meet face to face I'm afraid the result is likely
to be fields of rotting strawberries.

Nick (apols for the Cantonesque response)

[Btms]

Post by Nick Odell

Post by Btms

Post by Jim Easterbrook

Post by Btms

Post by the Omrud

Post by Jenny M Benson

And who can replace the EU workers who will no longer come?

Can somerat explain to a simpleton in words of one sullabub why Brexit
is a problem to farmers requiring to employ seasonal workers from
overseas?  If we need them, why cannot they just be allowed in, as
presumbably they were before we "went into Europe"?

Nobody yet knows anything, but lets guess that after 2020, workers from
the EU will be subject to the same controls as the rules which
currently apply to migrant workers from outside the EU.
The current rules mean they can only get a work visa if they have a
confirmed job paying more than £30,000 per year. That blocks many
teachers, nurses, etc at the moment and will certainly exclude all farm
workers.
Any comparisons with "before we went into Europe" are meaningless. The
world has changed utterly since then.

Surely it can change again!

Only if we elect a government that promises to increase immigration. The
current lot seem determined to cut immigration at the expense of
everything, from farming to hospitals to university research.

I am sure we will still welcome cheap labour to harvest the Borsetshire
strawberries.

When ideology and need meet face to face I'm afraid the result is likely
to be fields of rotting strawberries.
Nick (apols for the Cantonesque response)

That’ll be fine. UK strawberries grown largely in tubs under glass or
polytunnels.

[Serena Blanchflower]

Post by Btms

Post by the Omrud

Post by Jenny M Benson

Post by Vicky
And who can replace the EU workers who will no
longer come?

Can somerat explain to a simpleton in words of one sullabub why Brexit
is a problem to farmers requiring to employ seasonal workers from
overseas?  If we need them, why cannot they just be allowed in, as
presumbably they were before we "went into Europe"?

Nobody yet knows anything, but lets guess that after 2020, workers from
the EU will be subject to the same controls as the rules which currently
apply to migrant workers from outside the EU.
The current rules mean they can only get a work visa if they have a
confirmed job paying more than £30,000 per year. That blocks many
teachers, nurses, etc at the moment and will certainly exclude all farm
workers.
Any comparisons with "before we went into Europe" are meaningless. The
world has changed utterly since then.

Surely it can change again!

In time, very likely, but probably not before the current rules have
caused a major problem. Given both the huge number of things which will
need changing, post Brexit, and the political sensitivity of
immigration, I can't see this being at the front of the queue for
legislation.

In addition, the impression that the UK is unfriendly to EU immigrants
is likely to be putting EU workers off coming to work here, if they have
the option of getting jobs in other EU countries. I've heard comments
on these lines from a few people, in Postcrossing, who are thinking of
moving to other countries to work or study but who don't find the UK an
attractive prospect since the referendum.

On TA, Adam has said that he's been having difficulty getting his usual
fruit pickers even for this summer, before Brexit has even happened.
The referendum result has given the impression that EU workers may not
be welcome.

[Jenny M Benson]

Post by Serena Blanchflower
In time, very likely, but probably not before the current rules have
caused a major problem.  Given both the huge number of things which will
need changing, post Brexit, and the political sensitivity of
immigration, I can't see this being at the front of the queue for
legislation.

It seems to me that the major problem is the use of the words
immigrant/immigration.

I may be alone (outwith Umra) but to me an immigrant is someone who
comes into this country to settle here permanently. This does not appjy
to a student, an au pair or a seasonal fruit picker

[Serena Blanchflower]

Post by Jenny M Benson

Post by Serena Blanchflower
In time, very likely, but probably not before the current rules have
caused a major problem.  Given both the huge number of things which
will need changing, post Brexit, and the political sensitivity of
immigration, I can't see this being at the front of the queue for
legislation.

It seems to me that the major problem is the use of the words
immigrant/immigration.
I may be alone (outwith Umra) but to me an immigrant is someone who
comes into this country to settle here permanently.  This does not appjy
to a student, an au pair or a seasonal fruit picker

What about care workers? They're another group who will be affected by
this and they are more likely to be here long term (or at least,
longish) rather than on a short, fixed term contract.

[Vicky]

On Thu, 3 May 2018 10:03:48 +0100, Serena Blanchflower

Post by Serena Blanchflower

Post by Jenny M Benson

Post by Serena Blanchflower
In time, very likely, but probably not before the current rules have
caused a major problem.  Given both the huge number of things which
will need changing, post Brexit, and the political sensitivity of
immigration, I can't see this being at the front of the queue for
legislation.

It seems to me that the major problem is the use of the words
immigrant/immigration.
I may be alone (outwith Umra) but to me an immigrant is someone who
comes into this country to settle here permanently.  This does not appjy
to a student, an au pair or a seasonal fruit picker

What about care workers? They're another group who will be affected by
this and they are more likely to be here long term (or at least,
longish) rather than on a short, fixed term contract.

I believe there is already a problem there. The situation is
complicated, as local authorities have had funding cut, but have been
givien the duty to provide for those in need of care. Homes find
they can no longer operate with the payments made and so there are
ones closing and those workers will re-deploy, but there are also not
enough at that level to do all the work.

At the David Lloyd health club I go to the household staff, cleaners
etc, have been more or less all Wast European for the 5 years I have
been going. They are now N African. This has changed in the last 6
months.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Post by Serena Blanchflower

Post by Jenny M Benson

Post by Serena Blanchflower
In time, very likely, but probably not before the current rules have
caused a major problem.  Given both the huge number of things which
will need changing, post Brexit, and the political sensitivity of
immigration, I can't see this being at the front of the queue for
legislation.

It seems to me that the major problem is the use of the words
immigrant/immigration.
I may be alone (outwith Umra) but to me an immigrant is someone who
comes into this country to settle here permanently.  This does not
appjy to a student, an au pair or a seasonal fruit picker

What about care workers? They're another group who will be affected by
this and they are more likely to be here long term (or at least,
longish) rather than on a short, fixed term contract.

I think Jenny's point is a good one, though: I too consider the words
immigrant and immigration to mean people coming here with the intent of
staying. We need a different term for those coming here to work, with
the intention of leaving again when their work is finished - whether
they're coming for a short time, like seasonal workers, or a few years,
like care workers might be.

[Serena Blanchflower]

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)

Post by Serena Blanchflower
In time, very likely, but probably not before the current rules have
caused a major problem.  Given both the huge number of things which
will need changing, post Brexit, and the political sensitivity of
immigration, I can't see this being at the front of the queue for
legislation.

 It seems to me that the major problem is the use of the words
immigrant/immigration.
 I may be alone (outwith Umra) but to me an immigrant is someone who
comes into this country to settle here permanently.  This does not
appjy  to a student, an au pair or a seasonal fruit picker

What about care workers?  They're another group who will be affected
by this and they are more likely to be here long term (or at least,
longish) rather than on a short, fixed term contract.

I think Jenny's point is a good one, though: I too consider the words
immigrant and immigration to mean people coming here with the intent of
staying. We need a different term for those coming here to work, with
the intention of leaving again when their work is finished - whether
they're coming for a short time, like seasonal workers, or a few years,
like care workers might be.

When it's Brits that we're talking about, who have gone to live
elsewhere for a few years, they're generally referred to as ex-pats...

[BrritSki]

Post by Serena Blanchflower
When it's Brits that we're talking about, who have gone to live
elsewhere for a few years, they're generally referred to as ex-pats...

I hate the term. I am always keen to point out that I am an immigrant
when people state that all Brexiteers are anti-immigrant.

I should also point out that all is not sweetness and light in other
countries wrt immigrants. We've never experienced it personally in
either France or Italy, but then we are white, Christian (nominally) and
speak the local lingo in both countries, but we've certainly seen and
heard examples of anti-immigrant feeling against people who are not in
those categories.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

[among other things, Adam's pickers ...]

Post by Serena Blanchflower

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)

 It seems to me that the major problem is the use of the words
immigrant/immigration.
 I may be alone (outwith Umra) but to me an immigrant is someone
who comes into this country to settle here permanently.  This does
not appjy  to a student, an au pair or a seasonal fruit picker

What about care workers?  They're another group who will be affected
by this and they are more likely to be here long term (or at least,
longish) rather than on a short, fixed term contract.

I think Jenny's point is a good one, though: I too consider the words
immigrant and immigration to mean people coming here with the intent
of staying. We need a different term for those coming here to work,
with the intention of leaving again when their work is finished -
whether they're coming for a short time, like seasonal workers, or a
few years, like care workers might be.

When it's Brits that we're talking about, who have gone to live
elsewhere for a few years, they're generally referred to as ex-pats...

By our media and some of us, yes. The natives of the countries they're
in, I presume, call them immigrants (or the equivalent in their own
language). We could call them emigrants, I suppose. But some - and I
can't think of a word or phrase other than ex-pats - who do intend to
return eventually, but not with any fixed date or occurrence.

(True emigrants, one might expect to renounce British and apply for
citizenship where they've gone.)

[Penny]

On Thu, 3 May 2018 13:43:58 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
(True emigrants, one might expect to renounce British and apply for
citizenship where they've gone.)

Brother#2 finally applied for citizenship a couple of years ago having
lived in Australia since 1972. Not sure if he now uses an Australian
passport but his 5 children have dual nationality and 3 of them have lived
in UK*.

OTOH, my UK born step-mother, who had lived in America for many years and
still owns a house there, didn't apply for American citizenship until
several years after she married my father and had been living most of each
year in the UK for 15-20 years.

*and elsewhere - it's a common way of getting out of student debt AIUI.

[Kate B]

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[among other things, Adam's pickers ...]

Post by Serena Blanchflower

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)

 It seems to me that the major problem is the use of the words
immigrant/immigration.
 I may be alone (outwith Umra) but to me an immigrant is someone
who  comes into this country to settle here permanently.  This does
not  appjy  to a student, an au pair or a seasonal fruit picker

What about care workers?  They're another group who will be affected
by this and they are more likely to be here long term (or at least,
longish) rather than on a short, fixed term contract.

I think Jenny's point is a good one, though: I too consider the words
immigrant and immigration to mean people coming here with the intent
of  staying. We need a different term for those coming here to work,
with  the intention of leaving again when their work is finished -
whether  they're coming for a short time, like seasonal workers, or a
few years,  like care workers might be.

When it's Brits that we're talking about, who have gone to live
elsewhere for a few years, they're generally referred to as ex-pats...

By our media and some of us, yes. The natives of the countries they're
in, I presume, call them immigrants (or the equivalent in their own
language). We could call them emigrants, I suppose. But some - and I
can't think of a word or phrase other than ex-pats - who do intend to
return eventually, but not with any fixed date or occurrence.
(True emigrants, one might expect to renounce British and apply for
citizenship where they've gone.)

It depends what you mean by 'true'. Plenty of people find themselves
living in another country - married to a native of that country, for
example - who do not want to renounce their British identity. Not all
countries allow dual-nationality.

[Chris McMillan]

Post by Kate B

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[among other things, Adam's pickers ...]

Post by Serena Blanchflower

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)

 It seems to me that the major problem is the use of the words
immigrant/immigration.
 I may be alone (outwith Umra) but to me an immigrant is someone
who  comes into this country to settle here permanently.  This does
not  appjy  to a student, an au pair or a seasonal fruit picker

What about care workers?  They're another group who will be affected
by this and they are more likely to be here long term (or at least,
longish) rather than on a short, fixed term contract.

I think Jenny's point is a good one, though: I too consider the words
immigrant and immigration to mean people coming here with the intent
of  staying. We need a different term for those coming here to work,
with  the intention of leaving again when their work is finished -
whether  they're coming for a short time, like seasonal workers, or a
few years,  like care workers might be.

When it's Brits that we're talking about, who have gone to live
elsewhere for a few years, they're generally referred to as ex-pats...

By our media and some of us, yes. The natives of the countries they're
in, I presume, call them immigrants (or the equivalent in their own
language). We could call them emigrants, I suppose. But some - and I
can't think of a word or phrase other than ex-pats - who do intend to
return eventually, but not with any fixed date or occurrence.
(True emigrants, one might expect to renounce British and apply for
citizenship where they've gone.)

It depends what you mean by 'true'. Plenty of people find themselves
living in another country - married to a native of that country, for
example - who do not want to renounce their British identity. Not all
countries allow dual-nationality.

Ditto the reverse. Roger the non-netted umrat’s wofe is still a Spanish
citizen, was married just over 55 years.

Sincerely Chris

[Nick Odell]

Post by Chris McMillan

Post by Kate B

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
[among other things, Adam's pickers ...]

Post by Serena Blanchflower

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)

 It seems to me that the major problem is the use of the words
immigrant/immigration.
 I may be alone (outwith Umra) but to me an immigrant is someone
who  comes into this country to settle here permanently.  This does
not  appjy  to a student, an au pair or a seasonal fruit picker

What about care workers?  They're another group who will be affected
by this and they are more likely to be here long term (or at least,
longish) rather than on a short, fixed term contract.

I think Jenny's point is a good one, though: I too consider the words
immigrant and immigration to mean people coming here with the intent
of  staying. We need a different term for those coming here to work,
with  the intention of leaving again when their work is finished -
whether  they're coming for a short time, like seasonal workers, or a
few years,  like care workers might be.

When it's Brits that we're talking about, who have gone to live
elsewhere for a few years, they're generally referred to as ex-pats...

By our media and some of us, yes. The natives of the countries they're
in, I presume, call them immigrants (or the equivalent in their own
language). We could call them emigrants, I suppose. But some - and I
can't think of a word or phrase other than ex-pats - who do intend to
return eventually, but not with any fixed date or occurrence.
(True emigrants, one might expect to renounce British and apply for
citizenship where they've gone.)

It depends what you mean by 'true'. Plenty of people find themselves
living in another country - married to a native of that country, for
example - who do not want to renounce their British identity. Not all
countries allow dual-nationality.

Ditto the reverse. Roger the non-netted umrat’s wofe is still a Spanish
citizen, was married just over 55 years.

I don't want to be alarmist or anything but, given the recent publicity
about the number of people who are actually entitled to live in the UK
but have/don't have a piece of paper to say so and who have been
deported/threatened with deportation, is RtN-NU'sW secure in the
knowledge that she may stay and go as she likes?

And on a slight swervette, I could probably look this up but I wonder if
anybody here knows what constitutes British citizenship by birth these
days? I know of a British woman living in Argentina, married to an
Argentine and about to give birth. I know the child will have automatic
Argentine citizenship on at least two points (born on Argentine soil is
one, born anywhere in the world with one parent Argentine is the other)
but I'm not so sure the child will have an automatic right to British
citizenship or the right to live in the UK since the changes some years ago.

Nick

[the Omrud]

Post by Nick Odell
And on a slight swervette, I could probably look this up but I wonder if
anybody here knows what constitutes British citizenship by birth these
days? I know of a British woman living in Argentina, married to an
Argentine and about to give birth. I know the child will have automatic
Argentine citizenship on at least two points (born on Argentine soil is
one, born anywhere in the world with one parent Argentine is the other)
but I'm not so sure the child will have an automatic right to British
citizenship or the right to live in the UK since the changes some years ago.

Provided the woman is British and not "by descent", then her children
are automatically British, no matter where they are born. They are
British and can simply apply for a UK passport. But those children's
British citizenship is by descent, so their own children will only be
automatically British if other criteria are fulfulled (e.g. being born
in the UK).

The relevant law is the British Nationality Act 1981 which was enacted
in 1983 (hence that's the cutoff point for various changes):

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Nationality_Act_1981

Here's a simple check:

https://www.gov.uk/check-british-citizen

[Vicky]

Post by the Omrud

Post by Nick Odell
And on a slight swervette, I could probably look this up but I wonder if
anybody here knows what constitutes British citizenship by birth these
days? I know of a British woman living in Argentina, married to an
Argentine and about to give birth. I know the child will have automatic
Argentine citizenship on at least two points (born on Argentine soil is
one, born anywhere in the world with one parent Argentine is the other)
but I'm not so sure the child will have an automatic right to British
citizenship or the right to live in the UK since the changes some years ago.

Provided the woman is British and not "by descent", then her children
are automatically British, no matter where they are born. They are
British and can simply apply for a UK passport. But those children's
British citizenship is by descent, so their own children will only be
automatically British if other criteria are fulfulled (e.g. being born
in the UK).
The relevant law is the British Nationality Act 1981 which was enacted
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/British_Nationality_Act_1981
https://www.gov.uk/check-british-citizen

I seem to be ok. I had a bit of a nervous moment about father being an
enemy alien, but he was Czech and in the UK, not Channel Isles. He
wasn't actually an enemy himself really, a refugee, and doing
scientific research for a government department, I think. Road
markings. Cats' eyes maybe. I'd be very upset at being sent to Prague
at this stage. I don't speak the language. Or deprived of NHS health
care.

[BrritSki]

Post by the Omrud

Post by Nick Odell
And on a slight swervette, I could probably look this up but I wonder
if anybody here knows what constitutes British citizenship by birth
these days? I know of a British woman living in Argentina, married to
an Argentine and about to give birth. I know the child will have
automatic Argentine citizenship on at least two points (born on
Argentine soil is one, born anywhere in the world with one parent
Argentine is the other) but I'm not so sure the child will have an
automatic right to British citizenship or the right to live in the UK
since the changes some years ago.

Provided the woman is British and not "by descent", then her children
are automatically British, no matter where they are born.  They are
British and can simply apply for a UK passport.

That's what is happening with dorter's children who were all born in
Italy. Passport office not being very helpful though. My renewed
passport came through within days but no sign of their's which were
applied for at the same time. D got an email saying that they needed
their old passports, despite the form clearly stating that they were
applying for the first time. Plus the person verifying the photos was
queried, although I think that is now sorted.
D phoned them to explain about the passports, "well how do they travel
now then ?". "They have Italian Identity cards". "Oh, I'll put a note on
the file".
Shades of Windrush. It's not just cos they is black, it's cos the HO is
effing useless.

[Btms]

Post by Jenny M Benson

Post by Serena Blanchflower
In time, very likely, but probably not before the current rules have
caused a major problem.  Given both the huge number of things which will
need changing, post Brexit, and the political sensitivity of
immigration, I can't see this being at the front of the queue for
legislation.

It seems to me that the major problem is the use of the words
immigrant/immigration.
I may be alone (outwith Umra) but to me an immigrant is someone who
comes into this country to settle here permanently. This does not appjy
to a student, an au pair or a seasonal fruit picker

Good point. Trouble occurs when they don’t return home but I don’t know if
this is common.

[Penny]

On Thu, 3 May 2018 09:51:09 +0100, Jenny M Benson <***@hotmail.co.uk>
scrawled in the dust...

Post by Jenny M Benson

Post by Serena Blanchflower
In time, very likely, but probably not before the current rules have
caused a major problem.  Given both the huge number of things which will
need changing, post Brexit, and the political sensitivity of
immigration, I can't see this being at the front of the queue for
legislation.

It seems to me that the major problem is the use of the words
immigrant/immigration.
I may be alone (outwith Umra) but to me an immigrant is someone who
comes into this country to settle here permanently. This does not appjy
to a student, an au pair or a seasonal fruit picker

They are migrant workers and, like swallows, go back to their native land
when the season is over.

[John Ashby]

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by Jenny M Benson

Post by Serena Blanchflower
In time, very likely, but probably not before the current rules have
caused a major problem.  Given both the huge number of things which will
need changing, post Brexit, and the political sensitivity of
immigration, I can't see this being at the front of the queue for
legislation.

It seems to me that the major problem is the use of the words
immigrant/immigration.
I may be alone (outwith Umra) but to me an immigrant is someone who
comes into this country to settle here permanently. This does not appjy
to a student, an au pair or a seasonal fruit picker

They are migrant workers and, like swallows, go back to their native land
when the season is over.

Bloody swallows, come over here, eating our flies, sitting on our
telephone wires, and they can't even be bothered to adopt good British
values like tucking their heads under their wings when the snow comes.

john

[Serena Blanchflower]

Post by John Ashby

Post by Penny
On Thu, 3 May 2018 09:51:09 +0100, Jenny M Benson
scrawled in the dust...

Post by Jenny M Benson

Post by Serena Blanchflower
In time, very likely, but probably not before the current rules have
caused a major problem.  Given both the huge number of things which will
need changing, post Brexit, and the political sensitivity of
immigration, I can't see this being at the front of the queue for
legislation.

It seems to me that the major problem is the use of the words
immigrant/immigration.
I may be alone (outwith Umra) but to me an immigrant is someone who
comes into this country to settle here permanently.  This does not appjy
to a student, an au pair or a seasonal fruit picker

They are migrant workers and, like swallows, go back to their native land
when the season is over.

Bloody swallows, come over here, eating our flies, sitting on our
telephone wires, and they can't even be bothered to adopt good British
values like tucking their heads under their wings when the snow comes.

<g>

[Penny]

On Thu, 3 May 2018 19:45:17 +0100, John Ashby <***@yahoo.com>
scrawled in the dust...

Post by John Ashby

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by Jenny M Benson

Post by Serena Blanchflower
In time, very likely, but probably not before the current rules have
caused a major problem.  Given both the huge number of things which will
need changing, post Brexit, and the political sensitivity of
immigration, I can't see this being at the front of the queue for
legislation.

It seems to me that the major problem is the use of the words
immigrant/immigration.
I may be alone (outwith Umra) but to me an immigrant is someone who
comes into this country to settle here permanently. This does not appjy
to a student, an au pair or a seasonal fruit picker

They are migrant workers and, like swallows, go back to their native land
when the season is over.

Bloody swallows, come over here, eating our flies, sitting on our
telephone wires, and they can't even be bothered to adopt good British
values like tucking their heads under their wings when the snow comes.

No, no, *this* is their native land, they just swan off somewhere warmer in
the winter. I know pensioners who do the same thing.

[Mike]

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by John Ashby

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by Jenny M Benson

Post by Serena Blanchflower
In time, very likely, but probably not before the current rules have
caused a major problem.  Given both the huge number of things which will
need changing, post Brexit, and the political sensitivity of
immigration, I can't see this being at the front of the queue for
legislation.

It seems to me that the major problem is the use of the words
immigrant/immigration.
I may be alone (outwith Umra) but to me an immigrant is someone who
comes into this country to settle here permanently. This does not appjy
to a student, an au pair or a seasonal fruit picker

They are migrant workers and, like swallows, go back to their native land
when the season is over.

Bloody swallows, come over here, eating our flies, sitting on our
telephone wires, and they can't even be bothered to adopt good British
values like tucking their heads under their wings when the snow comes.

No, no, *this* is their native land, they just swan off somewhere warmer in
the winter. I know pensioners who do the same thing.

They may not be a drain on the NHS at this time but, there again they don’t
pay any taxes either, seem to think they can stay wherever they care to,
don’t know about the pensioners though...

[Vicky]

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by John Ashby

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by Jenny M Benson

Post by Serena Blanchflower
In time, very likely, but probably not before the current rules have
caused a major problem.  Given both the huge number of things which will
need changing, post Brexit, and the political sensitivity of
immigration, I can't see this being at the front of the queue for
legislation.

It seems to me that the major problem is the use of the words
immigrant/immigration.
I may be alone (outwith Umra) but to me an immigrant is someone who
comes into this country to settle here permanently. This does not appjy
to a student, an au pair or a seasonal fruit picker

They are migrant workers and, like swallows, go back to their native land
when the season is over.

Bloody swallows, come over here, eating our flies, sitting on our
telephone wires, and they can't even be bothered to adopt good British
values like tucking their heads under their wings when the snow comes.

No, no, *this* is their native land, they just swan off somewhere warmer in
the winter. I know pensioners who do the same thing.

I was one. Warmth is good for arthritis and Southern Spain seemed like
a good idea. I did all the legal stuff, registered residence as I'd
bought a flat, and you couldn't buy a car without the right paperwork,
and i signed up with an accountant to be straight with local tax etc,
but it didn't occur to me to become Spanish. I was going backwards and
forwards to see family. Probably more often than the swallows.

[Mike]

Post by Vicky

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by John Ashby

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by Jenny M Benson

Post by Serena Blanchflower
In time, very likely, but probably not before the current rules have
caused a major problem.  Given both the huge number of things which will
need changing, post Brexit, and the political sensitivity of
immigration, I can't see this being at the front of the queue for
legislation.

It seems to me that the major problem is the use of the words
immigrant/immigration.
I may be alone (outwith Umra) but to me an immigrant is someone who
comes into this country to settle here permanently. This does not appjy
to a student, an au pair or a seasonal fruit picker

They are migrant workers and, like swallows, go back to their native land
when the season is over.

Bloody swallows, come over here, eating our flies, sitting on our
telephone wires, and they can't even be bothered to adopt good British
values like tucking their heads under their wings when the snow comes.

No, no, *this* is their native land, they just swan off somewhere warmer in
the winter. I know pensioners who do the same thing.

I was one. Warmth is good for arthritis and Southern Spain seemed like
a good idea. I did all the legal stuff, registered residence as I'd
bought a flat, and you couldn't buy a car without the right paperwork,
and i signed up with an accountant to be straight with local tax etc,
but it didn't occur to me to become Spanish. I was going backwards and
forwards to see family. Probably more often than the swallows.

One swallow - contains a few calories but possibly more polite than
spitting it out -
Oh Sorry! I didn’t see you there Brritters. ;-)

[Penny]

On Fri, 04 May 2018 09:44:23 +0100, Vicky <***@gmail.com> scrawled
in the dust...

Post by Vicky

Post by Penny
No, no, *this* is their native land, they just swan off somewhere warmer in
the winter. I know pensioners who do the same thing.

I was one. Warmth is good for arthritis and Southern Spain seemed like
a good idea. I did all the legal stuff, registered residence as I'd
bought a flat, and you couldn't buy a car without the right paperwork,
and i signed up with an accountant to be straight with local tax etc,
but it didn't occur to me to become Spanish. I was going backwards and
forwards to see family. Probably more often than the swallows.

Yes but I think you set out to be an emigrant. The pensioners I was
thinking of (who I now realise may not have been pensioners when they
started migrating to Spain for the winter - they were professional bee
keepers) only did it seasonally.

Bro#2 seems to have become a seasonal migrant lately. He spent last summer
in Europe (from Australia) and arrived last week to stay* until September
again.

*not in any one place for long - last year he cycled to the Black Sea, this
year's destination is Barcelona - with catch-up visits to friends and
rellies too.

[Fenny]

On Thu, 3 May 2018 09:51:09 +0100, Jenny M Benson

Post by Jenny M Benson

Post by Serena Blanchflower
In time, very likely, but probably not before the current rules have
caused a major problem.  Given both the huge number of things which will
need changing, post Brexit, and the political sensitivity of
immigration, I can't see this being at the front of the queue for
legislation.

It seems to me that the major problem is the use of the words
immigrant/immigration.
I may be alone (outwith Umra) but to me an immigrant is someone who
comes into this country to settle here permanently. This does not appjy
to a student, an au pair or a seasonal fruit picker

I think that many people see an issue with people getting short term
visas and then overstaying once the visa expires. Given our
administration's [1] seeming total inability to correctly identify
such people and enforce the requirement to leave in any way that isn't
deemed to be OTT, some people think that letting anyone in at all who
can't prove they are "like us" and therefore acceptable is to be
avoided.

[1] I make no comment on the political leaning of the administration.
It seems to me that both sides are as useless when in power and as
eager to point fingers when not in power.

[Steve Hague]

Post by Penny
On Thu, 3 May 2018 09:51:09 +0100, Jenny M Benson

Post by Jenny M Benson

Post by Serena Blanchflower
In time, very likely, but probably not before the current rules have
caused a major problem.  Given both the huge number of things which will
need changing, post Brexit, and the political sensitivity of
immigration, I can't see this being at the front of the queue for
legislation.

It seems to me that the major problem is the use of the words
immigrant/immigration.
I may be alone (outwith Umra) but to me an immigrant is someone who
comes into this country to settle here permanently. This does not appjy
to a student, an au pair or a seasonal fruit picker

I think that many people see an issue with people getting short term
visas and then overstaying once the visa expires. Given our
administration's [1] seeming total inability to correctly identify
such people and enforce the requirement to leave in any way that isn't
deemed to be OTT, some people think that letting anyone in at all who
can't prove they are "like us" and therefore acceptable is to be
avoided.
[1] I make no comment on the political leaning of the administration.
It seems to me that both sides are as useless when in power and as
eager to point fingers when not in power.

A Chinese/ Australian couple we are friends with were suddeny informed a
couple of months ago that their visas had expired after nearly five
years in this country. It appears to be a Home Office error, but they
still had to go back to Australia.
Steve

---
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[Vicky]

On Sat, 5 May 2018 09:48:49 +0100, Steve Hague

Post by Steve Hague

Post by Penny
On Thu, 3 May 2018 09:51:09 +0100, Jenny M Benson

A Chinese/ Australian couple we are friends with were suddeny informed a
couple of months ago that their visas had expired after nearly five
years in this country. It appears to be a Home Office error, but they
still had to go back to Australia.
Steve
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

Who pays the fares? And can they come back now, or do they no longer
want to?

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Post by Steve Hague

Post by Penny
On Thu, 3 May 2018 09:51:09 +0100, Jenny M Benson

Post by Jenny M Benson

Post by Serena Blanchflower
In time, very likely, but probably not before the current rules have
caused a major problem.  Given both the huge number of things which will
need changing, post Brexit, and the political sensitivity of
immigration, I can't see this being at the front of the queue for
legislation.

It seems to me that the major problem is the use of the words
immigrant/immigration.
I may be alone (outwith Umra) but to me an immigrant is someone who
comes into this country to settle here permanently. This does not appjy
to a student, an au pair or a seasonal fruit picker

I think that many people see an issue with people getting short term
visas and then overstaying once the visa expires. Given our

They do indeed see that as a problem. (It'd be interesting to know what
the numbers actually _are_, but it is possible that no-one _has_ that
information; I guess they can reasonably well count non-nationals coming
in as I _think_ everyone's passport is scanned when you do, but is that
the case - by British systems, anyway - when you leave?)

Post by Steve Hague

Post by Penny
administration's [1] seeming total inability to correctly identify
such people and enforce the requirement to leave in any way that isn't
deemed to be OTT, some people think that letting anyone in at all who

Very well put, that "deemed".

Post by Steve Hague

Post by Penny
can't prove they are "like us" and therefore acceptable is to be
avoided.

I don't think that "like us" is quite fair - it implies racism (and/or
other -isms); while there may be some, I think a lot of the concern is
purely with numbers.

Post by Steve Hague

Post by Penny
[1] I make no comment on the political leaning of the
administration.
It seems to me that both sides are as useless when in power and as
eager to point fingers when not in power.

Thoroughly agreed.

Post by Steve Hague
A Chinese/ Australian couple we are friends with were suddeny informed
a couple of months ago that their visas had expired after nearly five

I'm curious about the "suddenly informed" bit: that sounds as if they
did not know ...

Post by Steve Hague
years in this country. It appears to be a Home Office error, but they
still had to go back to Australia.

... but if it was a HO error and it actually _hadn't_, I'd be pretty
cross too if I was them (YKWIM).

Post by Steve Hague
Steve
---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus

(Email?)

[Kate B]

On 05/05/2018 11:36, J. P. Gilliver (John) wrote:

(It'd be interesting to know what

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
the numbers actually _are_, but it is possible that no-one _has_ that
information; I guess they can reasonably well count non-nationals coming
in as I _think_ everyone's passport is scanned when you do, but is that
the case - by British systems, anyway - when you leave?)

That is precisely the problem. They are not always scanned, and no-one
is collecting the numbers.

[Btms]

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
(It'd be interesting to know what

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
the numbers actually _are_, but it is possible that no-one _has_ that
information; I guess they can reasonably well count non-nationals coming
in as I _think_ everyone's passport is scanned when you do, but is that
the case - by British systems, anyway - when you leave?)

That is precisely the problem. They are not always scanned, and no-one
is collecting the numbers.

I don’t think we know where many of these folk are. Or, in some cases, who
they are. 😏

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
(It'd be interesting to know what

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
the numbers actually _are_, but it is possible that no-one _has_ that
information; I guess they can reasonably well count non-nationals
coming in as I _think_ everyone's passport is scanned when you do,
but is that the case - by British systems, anyway - when you leave?)

That is precisely the problem. They are not always scanned, and no-one
is collecting the numbers.

Then they should be (scanning on exit). Not "and then doing all sorts of
checks", just a simple scan; then they could at least correlate those
coming in with those going out. Assuming the scanning machines aren't
very slow, it should take 5-10 seconds per person for modern electronic
passports. (Do a lot of countries still not have those? Even if so, it
ought not to be beyond the whit of man to design scanners that look at
the right part of the page for the various national passport designs.)

[Fenny]

On Sat, 5 May 2018 16:14:05 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
(It'd be interesting to know what

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
the numbers actually _are_, but it is possible that no-one _has_ that
information; I guess they can reasonably well count non-nationals
coming in as I _think_ everyone's passport is scanned when you do,
but is that the case - by British systems, anyway - when you leave?)

That is precisely the problem. They are not always scanned, and no-one
is collecting the numbers.

Then they should be (scanning on exit). Not "and then doing all sorts of
checks", just a simple scan; then they could at least correlate those
coming in with those going out. Assuming the scanning machines aren't
very slow, it should take 5-10 seconds per person for modern electronic
passports. (Do a lot of countries still not have those? Even if so, it
ought not to be beyond the whit of man to design scanners that look at
the right part of the page for the various national passport designs.)

John, I think you need to volunteer to write the system to do this.
Last time the government tried to implement new IT, it all went
horribly wrong and cost a lot of money. And not everyone has
scannable passports.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Fenny
On Sat, 5 May 2018 16:14:05 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
(It'd be interesting to know what

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
the numbers actually _are_, but it is possible that no-one _has_ that
information; I guess they can reasonably well count non-nationals
coming in as I _think_ everyone's passport is scanned when you do,
but is that the case - by British systems, anyway - when you leave?)

That is precisely the problem. They are not always scanned, and no-one
is collecting the numbers.

Then they should be (scanning on exit). Not "and then doing all sorts of
checks", just a simple scan; then they could at least correlate those
coming in with those going out. Assuming the scanning machines aren't
very slow, it should take 5-10 seconds per person for modern electronic
passports. (Do a lot of countries still not have those? Even if so, it
ought not to be beyond the whit of man to design scanners that look at
the right part of the page for the various national passport designs.)

John, I think you need to volunteer to write the system to do this.
Last time the government tried to implement new IT, it all went
horribly wrong and cost a lot of money. And not everyone has
scannable passports.

Delete "Last time the government tried to implement new IT"
and substitute
"Every time the government tries to implement new IT"

[Fenny]

Post by Sam Plusnet
Delete "Last time the government tried to implement new IT"
and substitute
"Every time the government tries to implement new IT"

Yes, but I was being charitable.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Fenny
On Sat, 5 May 2018 16:14:05 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

[]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Fenny

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)

Post by Kate B
That is precisely the problem. They are not always scanned, and no-one
is collecting the numbers.

Then they should be (scanning on exit). Not "and then doing all sorts of
checks", just a simple scan; then they could at least correlate those
coming in with those going out. Assuming the scanning machines aren't

[]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Fenny
John, I think you need to volunteer to write the system to do this.

Beyond my capabilities. Though it ought not to be beyond the whit of
man.

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Fenny
Last time the government tried to implement new IT, it all went
horribly wrong and cost a lot of money. And not everyone has
scannable passports.

They may not all have chips in them, but there must be no more than a
few hundred formats of print layout.

Post by Sam Plusnet
Delete "Last time the government tried to implement new IT"
and substitute
"Every time the government tries to implement new IT"

Unfortunately, "last/every time ... it went ... wrong" should not map to
"we should never again try".

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Fenny
On Sat, 5 May 2018 16:14:05 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

[]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Fenny

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)

Post by Kate B
That is precisely the problem. They are not always scanned, and no-one
is collecting the numbers.

Then they should be (scanning on exit). Not "and then doing all sorts of
checks", just a simple scan; then they could at least correlate those
coming in with those going out. Assuming the scanning machines aren't

[]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Fenny
John, I think you need to volunteer to write the system to do this.

Beyond my capabilities. Though it ought not to be beyond the whit of man.

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Fenny
Last time the government tried to implement new IT, it all went
horribly wrong and cost a lot of money.  And not everyone has
scannable passports.

They may not all have chips in them, but there must be no more than a
few hundred formats of print layout.

Post by Sam Plusnet
Delete "Last time the government tried to implement new IT"
and substitute
"Every time the government tries to implement new IT"

Unfortunately, "last/every time ... it went ... wrong" should not map to
"we should never again try".

Certainly.
But it should lead to future projects having a more realistic approach
with more modest, achievable aims. Somehow that doesn't happen.

[Fenny]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
Unfortunately, "last/every time ... it went ... wrong" should not map to
"we should never again try".

Certainly.
But it should lead to future projects having a more realistic approach
with more modest, achievable aims. Somehow that doesn't happen.

And with the ever expanding requirements of social care, there is far
less taxpayer dosh swilling around for people to waste.

My county council is currently going bust and will cease to exist
within the next 2 years. Unfortunately, that means my employer will
also cease to exist sometime not long afterwards. But still the
locals blame "the council" for anything and everything.

One of the (Labour) candidates in the district council elections last
week campaigned on the state of the potholes in the local roads. Road
maintenance is a county responsibility, not district. The photo in
his campaign bumf was of him crouching next to a pothole. The pothole
he chose was on a road that has not yet been adopted, so not the
responsibility of the council. So, even if he had been elected (he
wasn't), he couldn't have done anything about the matter, yet the
locals would have complained that nothing happened. If he had been
elected, the district council would still be 80% Conservative and he
would never have got anything passed that they didn't agree with. Not
that they don't agree the roads are in a state, but it's a county
thing and they can't do anything about it.

[Tony Bryer]

Post by Kate B
That is precisely the problem. They are not always scanned, and no-one
is collecting the numbers.

They're not scanned IME. When I emigrated in 2008 I just bought a single
ticket and left, no forms or anything.

[krw]

Post by Tony Bryer
They're not scanned IME. When I emigrated in 2008 I just bought a single
ticket and left, no forms or anything.

I believe that on departure it is the airline's responsibility to ensure
that the traveller and passport match with no record being kept. I
assume this cuts the number of Border Force staff by 50%.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Post by krw

Post by Tony Bryer
They're not scanned IME. When I emigrated in 2008 I just bought a single
ticket and left, no forms or anything.

I believe that on departure it is the airline's responsibility to
ensure that the traveller and passport match with no record being kept.

Then there should be!

Post by krw
I assume this cuts the number of Border Force staff by 50%.

If the airlines have to pay for them, then so be it. Keeping _no_ record
is, at the very least, not useful.

_Surely_ it ought to be possible, within 5 years from now say, to
implement a system that correlates the vast majority of non-British
entrants with the same people leaving.

[Penny]

On Tue, 8 May 2018 03:00:17 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
_Surely_ it ought to be possible, within 5 years from now say, to
implement a system that correlates the vast majority of non-British
entrants with the same people leaving.

If it happens it still only tells you the name of the person (which may be
false) and what they look like - not where to find them. It fails to tell
you anything about anyone who was smuggled in with no passport.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Post by Penny
On Tue, 8 May 2018 03:00:17 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
_Surely_ it ought to be possible, within 5 years from now say, to
implement a system that correlates the vast majority of non-British
entrants with the same people leaving.

If it happens it still only tells you the name of the person (which may be
false) and what they look like - not where to find them. It fails to tell
you anything about anyone who was smuggled in with no passport.

It would at least give us some idea of the numbers (as you say,
excluding smuggle-ees); at present, I don't think we have _any_ idea of
the numbers, so we can only go on guesses by things like the Daily Mail.

[Mike]

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)

Post by Penny
On Tue, 8 May 2018 03:00:17 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
_Surely_ it ought to be possible, within 5 years from now say, to
implement a system that correlates the vast majority of non-British
entrants with the same people leaving.

If it happens it still only tells you the name of the person (which may be
false) and what they look like - not where to find them. It fails to tell
you anything about anyone who was smuggled in with no passport.

It would at least give us some idea of the numbers (as you say,
excluding smuggle-ees); at present, I don't think we have _any_ idea of
the numbers, so we can only go on guesses by things like the Daily Mail.

... or multiply government guesstimates x ten.

[Penny]

On Tue, 8 May 2018 09:06:43 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)

Post by Penny
On Tue, 8 May 2018 03:00:17 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
_Surely_ it ought to be possible, within 5 years from now say, to
implement a system that correlates the vast majority of non-British
entrants with the same people leaving.

If it happens it still only tells you the name of the person (which may be
false) and what they look like - not where to find them. It fails to tell
you anything about anyone who was smuggled in with no passport.

It would at least give us some idea of the numbers (as you say,
excluding smuggle-ees); at present, I don't think we have _any_ idea of
the numbers, so we can only go on guesses by things like the Daily Mail.

Well I guess when a visa system is in place we may have a better chance.
Will Europeans, Americans and people from the Commonwealth need visas? Do
they now?

[Fenny]

Post by Penny
Well I guess when a visa system is in place we may have a better chance.
Will Europeans, Americans and people from the Commonwealth need visas? Do
they now?

I saw an article recently that said UK citizens would need something
similar to an ESTA to go to Yorp once we leave.

We have a visa waiver programme with the US, so I assume they have to
fill in some form similar to the one we used to have to complete,
before they brought in the ESTA process. The US border controls seem
far more stringent than ours, and they stamp your passport every time
you enter and take out the little slip when you leave. Having never
been through the non-EU line, I don't know how much our Border Force
peeps do.

[the Omrud]

Post by Fenny

Post by Penny
Well I guess when a visa system is in place we may have a better chance.
Will Europeans, Americans and people from the Commonwealth need visas? Do
they now?

I saw an article recently that said UK citizens would need something
similar to an ESTA to go to Yorp once we leave.
We have a visa waiver programme with the US, so I assume they have to
fill in some form similar to the one we used to have to complete,
before they brought in the ESTA process. The US border controls seem
far more stringent than ours, and they stamp your passport every time
you enter and take out the little slip when you leave.

That's all gone now - the ESTA process means no more little slips. I
have no idea how they know you've left the USA; last year we left
Alaska on a ship and landed in Canada (without, strangely, any Canadian
immigration check).

[Nick Odell]

Post by Fenny

Post by Penny
Well I guess when a visa system is in place we may have a better chance.
Will Europeans, Americans and people from the Commonwealth need visas? Do
they now?

I saw an article recently that said UK citizens would need something
similar to an ESTA to go to Yorp once we leave.
We have a visa waiver programme with the US, so I assume they have to
fill in some form similar to the one we used to have to complete,
before they brought in the ESTA process.  The US border controls seem
far more stringent than ours, and they stamp your passport every time
you enter and take out the little slip when you leave.

That's all gone now - the ESTA process means no more little slips.  I
have no idea how they know you've left the USA;  last year we left
Alaska on a ship and landed in Canada (without, strangely, any Canadian
immigration check).

Canada now has an ESTA-like process which I believe they call eTA. Would
you have enrolled on that or been enrolled by the operating company?

Nick

[the Omrud]

Post by Nick Odell

Post by Fenny

Post by Penny
Well I guess when a visa system is in place we may have a better chance.
Will Europeans, Americans and people from the Commonwealth need visas? Do
they now?

I saw an article recently that said UK citizens would need something
similar to an ESTA to go to Yorp once we leave.
We have a visa waiver programme with the US, so I assume they have to
fill in some form similar to the one we used to have to complete,
before they brought in the ESTA process.  The US border controls seem
far more stringent than ours, and they stamp your passport every time
you enter and take out the little slip when you leave.

That's all gone now - the ESTA process means no more little slips.  I
have no idea how they know you've left the USA;  last year we left
Alaska on a ship and landed in Canada (without, strangely, any
Canadian immigration check).

Canada now has an ESTA-like process which I believe they call eTA. Would
you have enrolled on that or been enrolled by the operating company?

We didn't, because there was no need. The process only applies to those
arriving by air. People arriving by sea or land are not required to
apply for the process, so we didn't because it cost a few dollars.

To be clear, when the ship disembarked at Vancouver, there was no
customs or immigration barrier at all, and one of the ship staff was
clearly shouting "No passports required". It was no more difficult than
landing on the Isle of Mann.

However, I'm sure the cruise company knew the nationality of all those
on board, and had communicated it to the Canadian authorities.

The consequence is that we have no passport record of having visited
Canada last year.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Post by the Omrud

Post by Fenny

Post by Penny
Well I guess when a visa system is in place we may have a better chance.

It would presumably give us more control over the numbers arriving.

However, unless identities are recorded for those _leaving_, we'd still
have not much clue about the net figure.

Post by the Omrud

Post by Fenny

Post by Penny
Will Europeans, Americans and people from the Commonwealth need visas? Do
they now?

I saw an article recently that said UK citizens would need something
similar to an ESTA to go to Yorp once we leave.
We have a visa waiver programme with the US, so I assume they have to
fill in some form similar to the one we used to have to complete,
before they brought in the ESTA process. The US border controls seem
far more stringent than ours, and they stamp your passport every time
you enter and take out the little slip when you leave.

I gather they take your fingerprints on entry to the USA; I have
reservations about that, so may never go there. Or have I picked that up
wrong (as I often do things)?

Post by the Omrud
That's all gone now - the ESTA process means no more little slips. I
have no idea how they know you've left the USA; last year we left
Alaska on a ship and landed in Canada (without, strangely, any Canadian
immigration check).

[Penny]

On Wed, 9 May 2018 02:17:17 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)

Post by Penny
Well I guess when a visa system is in place we may have a better chance.

It would presumably give us more control over the numbers arriving.
However, unless identities are recorded for those _leaving_, we'd still
have not much clue about the net figure.

Does Australia still have an exit tax?
My father kicked up a fuss about paying it on one visit, saying he was
quite happy to stay to avoid the $10 tax.

[the Omrud]

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I gather they take your fingerprints on entry to the USA; I have
reservations about that, so may never go there. Or have I picked that up
wrong (as I often do things)?

Yes, they do, but they've been doing that for a long time, since the
tools became available. It's an electronic fingerprint thingy - you put
your fingers flat on a scanner for a couple of seconds. They also
photograph your face.

There are many reasons not to visit the USA, but there are also many
reasons to go there. The people are courteous and polite and honestly
interested in Brits. The natural wonders on the west side of the
country are utterly, utterly astonishing. Driving in the West is a joy
because of largely empty roads and highly disciplined road users.

Very little of the preceeding paragraph applies to the monstrous
conurbations such as LA and New York, but the "smaller" western cities
including San Diego, Portland, Seattle and San Francisco are all a
delight to visit.

[Sid Nuncius]

Post by the Omrud
There are many reasons not to visit the USA, but there are also many
reasons to go there.  The people are courteous and polite and honestly
interested in Brits.  The natural wonders on the west side of the
country are utterly, utterly astonishing.  Driving in the West is a joy
because of largely empty roads and highly disciplined road users.
Very little of the preceeding paragraph applies to the monstrous
conurbations such as LA and New York, but the "smaller" western cities
including San Diego, Portland, Seattle and San Francisco are all a
delight to visit.

It's a long while since wofe and I were in California, Oregon and
Washington, but I would languidly wave at all of that. Stunning
scenery, astounding Natural Wonders, very well run National Parks,
Forests, Recreation Areas etc, very friendly people and the cities Nick
names were a delight, I agree.

We flew to San Francisco, hired a car and took almost 6 weeks to loop
inland and south via Yosemite, Sequoia/King's Canyon and other places,
back to the coast at San Luis Obispo and then up the coast (with
digressions to Crater Lake etc) to the Olympic Peninsula, eventually
flying home from Seattle. It's probably the best trip we ever made; far
fewer security hassles when we went, but I'd happily have undergone
fingerprinting and so on to have experienced it.

[Sid Nuncius]

Post by Sid Nuncius

Post by the Omrud
There are many reasons not to visit the USA, but there are also many
reasons to go there.  The people are courteous and polite and honestly
interested in Brits.  The natural wonders on the west side of the
country are utterly, utterly astonishing.  Driving in the West is a
joy because of largely empty roads and highly disciplined road users.
Very little of the preceeding paragraph applies to the monstrous
conurbations such as LA and New York, but the "smaller" western cities
including San Diego, Portland, Seattle and San Francisco are all a
delight to visit.

It's a long while since wofe and I were in California, Oregon and
Washington, but I would languidly wave at all of that.  Stunning
scenery, astounding Natural Wonders, very well run National Parks,
Forests, Recreation Areas etc, very friendly people and the cities Nick
names were a delight, I agree.
We flew to San Francisco, hired a car and took almost 6 weeks to loop
inland and south via Yosemite, Sequoia/King's Canyon and other places,
back to the coast at San Luis Obispo and then up the coast (with
digressions to Crater Lake etc) to the Olympic Peninsula, eventually
flying home from Seattle.  It's probably the best trip we ever made; far
fewer security hassles when we went, but I'd happily have undergone
fingerprinting and so on to have experienced it.

P.S. I've just realised the title of this thread and thought a mention
of this place would be apposite:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Boring,_Oregon

This place is not that far away from there, either. (Wofe laughed in a
most unladylike manner when she first spotted it on our map...)
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wankers_Corner,_Oregon

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Post by Sid Nuncius

Post by the Omrud
There are many reasons not to visit the USA, but there are also many
reasons to go there.  The people are courteous and polite and honestly
interested in Brits.  The natural wonders on the west side of the
country are utterly, utterly astonishing.  Driving in the West is a
joy because of largely empty roads and highly disciplined road users.
Very little of the preceeding paragraph applies to the monstrous
conurbations such as LA and New York, but the "smaller" western cities
including San Diego, Portland, Seattle and San Francisco are all a
delight to visit.

It's a long while since wofe and I were in California, Oregon and
Washington, but I would languidly wave at all of that. Stunning
scenery, astounding Natural Wonders, very well run National Parks,
Forests, Recreation Areas etc, very friendly people and the cities Nick
names were a delight, I agree.
We flew to San Francisco, hired a car and took almost 6 weeks to loop
inland and south via Yosemite, Sequoia/King's Canyon and other places,
back to the coast at San Luis Obispo and then up the coast (with
digressions to Crater Lake etc) to the Olympic Peninsula, eventually
flying home from Seattle. It's probably the best trip we ever made;

You both make it sound very pleasant, and I'm sure it is (especially the
people). I _do_ feel rather strongly about the fingerprinting etc., but
that's just me. (Well, no it isn't, but I accept I'm in the minority.)

Post by Sid Nuncius
far fewer security hassles when we went, but I'd happily have undergone
fingerprinting and so on to have experienced it.

And presumably you did so.

[Vicky]

Post by the Omrud

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I gather they take your fingerprints on entry to the USA; I have
reservations about that, so may never go there. Or have I picked that up
wrong (as I often do things)?

Yes, they do, but they've been doing that for a long time, since the
tools became available. It's an electronic fingerprint thingy - you put
your fingers flat on a scanner for a couple of seconds. They also
photograph your face.

I'm pretty sure I've never had my prints taken and I've been on at
least 3 differnt visas. First I went as a student, on a special
student visa, via B.U.N.A.C in 1965, then on a seaman's pass, as
supernumary, when sailing as wife with Capt Ex (not Capt all the
times). I think the seaman visa is a B..some numbers...

Then we went over on a viewing trip so we could be sold a house in
Kissimmee. I vaguley recall the flight landed first in a NE state, we
overnighted and flew again to Orlando. Then a few times to stay..oh I
forgot one! Before we decided to buy a house, we house-swopped with
someone who had an apartment in Pensacola, Fla. We flew via Miami and
changed flights there, so must have been through landing procedures
there. I don't know what visa we had, us and two teen daughters, but
we stayed about 8 weeks, travelling around as well.

Then when we got the house we visited it, again with daughters and a
friend for each one, and at other times too. I think there would have
been some visa form we filled in on the plane. Probably that applied
the other times we flew with the kids too.


The last time I went was a few years ago and we flew to San Francisco
, travelled around, and back from Las Vegas. Again no finger-prints
were taken and I think it was a visa form filled in on the plane. I
think the worst moment was actually leaving from Las Vegas. Security
were very interested in us.

Post by the Omrud
There are many reasons not to visit the USA, but there are also many
reasons to go there. The people are courteous and polite and honestly
interested in Brits. The natural wonders on the west side of the
country are utterly, utterly astonishing. Driving in the West is a joy
because of largely empty roads and highly disciplined road users.
Very little of the preceeding paragraph applies to the monstrous
conurbations such as LA and New York, but the "smaller" western cities
including San Diego, Portland, Seattle and San Francisco are all a
delight to visit.

[Vicky]

Post by Vicky

Post by the Omrud

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I gather they take your fingerprints on entry to the USA; I have
reservations about that, so may never go there. Or have I picked that up
wrong (as I often do things)?

Yes, they do, but they've been doing that for a long time, since the
tools became available. It's an electronic fingerprint thingy - you put
your fingers flat on a scanner for a couple of seconds. They also
photograph your face.

I'm pretty sure I've never had my prints taken and I've been on at
least 3 differnt visas. First I went as a student, on a special

Oops. B insists last time we went, which was a road trip similar to
Sids, we were finger-printed, but I don't remember because no ink was
involved.WHen you showed your passport you put your hand on a glass
surface and that was it. So possibly I didn't notice the other times
either.

Post by Vicky

Post by the Omrud
There are many reasons not to visit the USA, but there are also many
reasons to go there. The people are courteous and polite and honestly
interested in Brits. The natural wonders on the west side of the
country are utterly, utterly astonishing. Driving in the West is a joy
because of largely empty roads and highly disciplined road users.
Very little of the preceeding paragraph applies to the monstrous
conurbations such as LA and New York, but the "smaller" western cities
including San Diego, Portland, Seattle and San Francisco are all a
delight to visit.

All of that MTAAW. And I love the food there too :). Ok, big portions,
but my favourite breakfast place is Denny's. I prefer US bacon to UK
and you get pancakes and syrup with it, and they do OAP portions if
you want them.

The catering for the disabled even some years ago beat the sh^t out of
that in the UK. We visited the Hearst Mansion and I wasn't walking
well and we had a private tour, shared with someone who needed ASL.
And before that when I needed help getting around Disney, they
provided the scooters and you zoomed to the head of any queues with
them :).

[the Omrud]

Post by Vicky
I prefer US bacon to UK

Nooooooooooooo!

[the Omrud]

Post by Vicky
The catering for the disabled even some years ago beat the sh^t out of
that in the UK. We visited the Hearst Mansion and I wasn't walking
well and we had a private tour, shared with someone who needed ASL.
And before that when I needed help getting around Disney, they
provided the scooters and you zoomed to the head of any queues with
them:).

Hearst Mansion visits were a silly price, but we went on two tours as we
were never likely to be back again. That was the day it reached 115°F
(46°C). No wonder there were forest fires all over the place.

[Vicky]

Post by the Omrud

Post by Vicky
The catering for the disabled even some years ago beat the sh^t out of
that in the UK. We visited the Hearst Mansion and I wasn't walking
well and we had a private tour, shared with someone who needed ASL.
And before that when I needed help getting around Disney, they
provided the scooters and you zoomed to the head of any queues with
them:).

Hearst Mansion visits were a silly price, but we went on two tours as we
were never likely to be back again. That was the day it reached 115°F
(46°C). No wonder there were forest fires all over the place.

As there is lots of walking they organised a mini bus for us and
another couple. And I think we got to see some places not on the usual
tour. And we didn't book in advance, they just catered on the spot.

[the Omrud]

Post by Vicky

Post by the Omrud

Post by Vicky
The catering for the disabled even some years ago beat the sh^t out of
that in the UK. We visited the Hearst Mansion and I wasn't walking
well and we had a private tour, shared with someone who needed ASL.
And before that when I needed help getting around Disney, they
provided the scooters and you zoomed to the head of any queues with
them:).

Hearst Mansion visits were a silly price, but we went on two tours as we
were never likely to be back again. That was the day it reached 115°F
(46°C). No wonder there were forest fires all over the place.

As there is lots of walking they organised a mini bus for us and
another couple. And I think we got to see some places not on the usual
tour. And we didn't book in advance, they just catered on the spot.

While we were there we saw a lady in a wheelchair on what I assumed was
a bespoke tour. Good service.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

[]

Post by the Omrud

Post by Vicky

Post by the Omrud
Hearst Mansion visits were a silly price, but we went on two tours as we
were never likely to be back again. That was the day it reached 115°F
(46°C). No wonder there were forest fires all over the place.

As there is lots of walking they organised a mini bus for us and
another couple. And I think we got to see some places not on the usual
tour. And we didn't book in advance, they just catered on the spot.

While we were there we saw a lady in a wheelchair on what I assumed was
a bespoke tour. Good service.

When visiting (in England) places with my blind friends, there's often
no point in that much is either behind glass or roped off and you look,
which for them (me telling them what I could see) isn't that different
from just using a book or website. But sometimes, I guess it needs a
combination of {not being very busy} and {member of staff with some
initiative}, we've been taken behind the scenes and allowed to handle
the exhibits: I remember Beamish museum was one such place, and Dover
castle another, though in the latter case _everyone_ was allowed to
handle the furniture, bedding, etc. (I remember some made with squirrel
fur!) because they've made reproductions of how it was (and I presume
expect to replace the reproductions regularly anyway).

Places with audio guides - tape machines, or these days I guess mp3
players, you hire, thus letting you move around at your own place - are
quite good. As was Shepherd Neame brewery, which issued _everyone_ with
headsets, so the guide could explain to the members of the guided tour
even in the presence of noisy machinery.

[LFS]

Post by the Omrud

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I gather they take your fingerprints on entry to the USA; I have
reservations about that, so may never go there. Or have I picked that
up wrong (as I often do things)?

Yes, they do, but they've been doing that for a long time, since the
tools became available.  It's an electronic fingerprint thingy - you put
your fingers flat on a scanner for a couple of seconds.  They also
photograph your face.
There are many reasons not to visit the USA, but there are also many
reasons to go there.  The people are courteous and polite and honestly
interested in Brits.  The natural wonders on the west side of the
country are utterly, utterly astonishing.  Driving in the West is a joy
because of largely empty roads and highly disciplined road users.
Very little of the preceeding paragraph applies to the monstrous
conurbations such as LA and New York, but the "smaller" western cities
including San Diego, Portland, Seattle and San Francisco are all a
delight to visit.

I'm a city girl so I would say that the cities are worth visiting just
as much, especially Chicago and Boston. It has taken me three visits to
New York to appreciate it even slightly, though.

But I do love Arizona. And the Painted Desert is stunning.

[the Omrud]

Post by Serena Blanchflower
On TA, Adam has said that he's been having difficulty getting his usual
fruit pickers even for this summer, before Brexit has even happened. The
referendum result has given the impression that EU workers may not be
welcome.

Plus the drop in the value of the pound, which means less pay in their
home currency.

[Btms]

Post by the Omrud

Post by Serena Blanchflower
On TA, Adam has said that he's been having difficulty getting his usual
fruit pickers even for this summer, before Brexit has even happened. The
referendum result has given the impression that EU workers may not be
welcome.

Plus the drop in the value of the pound, which means less pay in their
home currency.

Its not real you know 😜

[Nick Odell]

Post by Btms

Post by the Omrud

Post by Serena Blanchflower
On TA, Adam has said that he's been having difficulty getting his usual
fruit pickers even for this summer, before Brexit has even happened. The
referendum result has given the impression that EU workers may not be
welcome.

Plus the drop in the value of the pound, which means less pay in their
home currency.

Its not real you know 😜

“From now the pound abroad is worth 14% or so less in terms of other
currencies. It does not mean, of course, that the pound here in Britain,
in your pocket or purse or in your bank, has been devalued.”

Nick

[Mike]

Post by Nick Odell

Post by Btms

Post by the Omrud

Post by Serena Blanchflower
On TA, Adam has said that he's been having difficulty getting his usual
fruit pickers even for this summer, before Brexit has even happened. The
referendum result has given the impression that EU workers may not be
welcome.

Plus the drop in the value of the pound, which means less pay in their
home currency.

Its not real you know 😜

“From now the pound abroad is worth 14% or so less in terms of other
currencies. It does not mean, of course, that the pound here in Britain,
in your pocket or purse or in your bank, has been devalued.”
Nick

Nick, I think your pipe has ‘gone out’.

[the Omrud]

Post by Btms

Post by the Omrud

Post by Serena Blanchflower
On TA, Adam has said that he's been having difficulty getting his usual
fruit pickers even for this summer, before Brexit has even happened. The
referendum result has given the impression that EU workers may not be
welcome.

Plus the drop in the value of the pound, which means less pay in their
home currency.

Its not real you know 😜

I didn't follow this. If you are from a Euro country and you are in the
UK, earning in sterling and sending some of your salary back to your
home country, then you're now sending less, whch makes the UK a less
attractive place to work.

And we are still undertaking building work in France, which we fund in
sterling, so we're having to spend more of our pounds.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Post by the Omrud

Post by Serena Blanchflower
On TA, Adam has said that he's been having difficulty getting his usual
fruit pickers even for this summer, before Brexit has even happened. The
referendum result has given the impression that EU workers may not be
welcome.

Plus the drop in the value of the pound, which means less pay in their
home currency.

Its not real you know 0 >I didn't follow this. If you are from a Euro country and you are in

[]
I think Btms was being facetious, taking the opportunity to quote the
famous (or infamous) "the pound in your pocket" speech, which tried to
say the same thing, when it was obvious to everyone that it _did_ make a
difference. Harold Wilson, I think it was.

[the Omrud]

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)

Post by the Omrud

Post by Serena Blanchflower
On TA, Adam has said that he's been having difficulty getting his
usual fruit pickers even for this summer, before Brexit has even
happened. The referendum result has given the impression that EU workers may not be
welcome.

Plus the drop in the value of the pound, which means less pay in their
home currency.

 Its not real you know

I didn't follow this.  If you are from a Euro country and you are in

[]
I think Btms was being facetious, taking the opportunity to quote the
famous (or infamous) "the pound in your pocket" speech, which tried to
say the same thing, when it was obvious to everyone that it _did_ make a
difference. Harold Wilson, I think it was.

Ah. If so, fair enough.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by the Omrud

Post by Jenny M Benson

Post by Vicky
And who can replace the EU workers who will no
longer come?

Can somerat explain to a simpleton in words of one sullabub why Brexit
is a problem to farmers requiring to employ seasonal workers from
overseas?  If we need them, why cannot they just be allowed in, as
presumbably they were before we "went into Europe"?

Nobody yet knows anything, but lets guess that after 2020, workers from
the EU will be subject to the same controls as the rules which currently
apply to migrant workers from outside the EU.
The current rules mean they can only get a work visa if they have a
confirmed job paying more than £30,000 per year.  That blocks many
teachers, nurses, etc at the moment and will certainly exclude all farm
workers.
Any comparisons with "before we went into Europe" are meaningless.  The
world has changed utterly since then.

Also, many of those migrant workers are from countries which are now
part of the EU. It will be far easier for them to find work within the
EU than jump through hurdles to come to the UK.

[p***@never.here]

On Wed, 2 May 2018 11:26:38 +0100, Serena Blanchflower

Post by Serena Blanchflower

Post by Flop
There have been times when comments have been made about the lack of
messages.
Having just caught up with the last few days worth, I am amazed that,
although there are plenty of messages, a very large majority are OT.
Listening to TA, I can understand why. Plots are in 'tickover' mode with
nothing novel and most are cyclic. Everyone argues with everyone else.
No one actually does anything.
Think of all the recent plot lines (eg Lynda with the dogs) and rate
them on an 'exciting' scale.
I know that it is not Eastenders but even so.....

For me, it isn't the fact that nothing much is happening that's the
problem, it's the relentless negativity of it all which is making me
question whether I really want to listen to this.
It's fine when there are patches where nothing dramatic is happening and
life is bimbling on happily, as usual. At the moment, TA is a mix of
major painful turmoil, such as Nic, Home Farm, and Shula & Alistair's
marriage - all painful, with those families who aren't being torn apart
being generally miserable and uncomfortable.

Add to those Freddy and his drug pushing which has just resurfaced.

Post by Serena Blanchflower
Even those stories which should, on paper, be happy - such as Pip's
pregnancy are only mentioned when there are worries or problems to be
raised. We aren't allowed to simply share in any of the joys of life
which, I hope, some residents are enjoying.

[Serena Blanchflower]

Post by Serena Blanchflower
For me, it isn't the fact that nothing much is happening that's the
problem, it's the relentless negativity of it all which is making me
question whether I really want to listen to this.

Hurrah, at least there were a few flashes of joy and fun this evening!