What's up with the 73 stock?

[Recliner]

I'm regularly seeing tweets from the Piccadilly Line that say that there's
a shortage of available trains. Is this some newly discovered technical
problem, or the result of union action? This fleet is regularly reported
as LU's most reliable.

Here's an example from this morning: "Apologies for the gaps in the
service, this is due to lack of available trains. Our staff are working
hard to resolve this issue."

The gaps in service are causing overcrowding at busy stations, leading to
tweets like this, "Kings Cross station - Closed to prevent overcrowding.
Update to follow."

It's not just today -- it seems to be happening regularly.

These 40+ year old trains are expected to soldier on for the best part of a
decade before the NTfLs replace them, so I hope the problem is temporary.

[Roland Perry]

In message
<448640384.501588344.690585.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-septe
mber.org>, at 10:16:47 on Wed, 23 Nov 2016, Recliner

Post by Recliner
I'm regularly seeing tweets from the Piccadilly Line that say that there's
a shortage of available trains. Is this some newly discovered technical
problem, or the result of union action? This fleet is regularly reported
as LU's most reliable.
Here's an example from this morning: "Apologies for the gaps in the
service, this is due to lack of available trains. Our staff are working
hard to resolve this issue."

Could be leaf-fall wheel flats. A lot of the Piccadilly line is in the
open air.

Post by Recliner
The gaps in service are causing overcrowding at busy stations, leading to
tweets like this, "Kings Cross station - Closed to prevent overcrowding.
Update to follow."
It's not just today -- it seems to be happening regularly.
These 40+ year old trains are expected to soldier on for the best part of a
decade before the NTfLs replace them, so I hope the problem is temporary.

[Recliner]

Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 10:16:47 on Wed, 23 Nov 2016, Recliner

Post by Recliner
I'm regularly seeing tweets from the Piccadilly Line that say that there's
a shortage of available trains. Is this some newly discovered technical
problem, or the result of union action? This fleet is regularly reported
as LU's most reliable.
Here's an example from this morning: "Apologies for the gaps in the
service, this is due to lack of available trains. Our staff are working
hard to resolve this issue."

Could be leaf-fall wheel flats. A lot of the Piccadilly line is in the
open air.

Sounds plausible. The week-old problem is continuing today, but they're not
identifying any specific problem(s) on Twitter:

"hi, we don't have the specific reason but they are working hard to get any
unavailable trains back in service as soon as possible"

Incidentally, although the Piccadilly line is largely above ground from
Baron's Court, it's largely on viaducts rather than cuttings, so it
shouldn't be affected very much by leaf fall.

[Roland Perry]

In message
<385139724.501674326.327606.recliner.ng-***@news.eternal-septe
mber.org>, at 10:06:07 on Thu, 24 Nov 2016, Recliner

Post by Recliner
Incidentally, although the Piccadilly line is largely above ground from
Baron's Court, it's largely on viaducts rather than cuttings, so it
shouldn't be affected very much by leaf fall.

And the branch to Uxbridge, and the part in North London?

[Recliner]

Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 10:06:07 on Thu, 24 Nov 2016, Recliner

Post by Recliner
Incidentally, although the Piccadilly line is largely above ground from
Baron's Court, it's largely on viaducts rather than cuttings, so it
shouldn't be affected very much by leaf fall.

And the branch to Uxbridge, and the part in North London?

Very little of the eastern end is not underground.

The Acton Town to Rayner's Lane section is on viaducts from Park Royal most
of the way to Sudbury Town, where it's at ground level. It's then in a
shallow cutting till after Sudbury Hill, after which it's back on viaducts
to Rayner's Lane. It's then a mixture, but I can't think of any deep
cuttings on the rest of the route to Uxbridge. Remember that all of these
lines were built by the Met and District lines, rather than Tube railway
companies, and they preferred to build on or above ground level in the then
largely rural areas.

[s***@potato.field]

On Thu, 24 Nov 2016 11:43:36 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 10:06:07 on Thu, 24 Nov 2016, Recliner

Post by Recliner
Incidentally, although the Piccadilly line is largely above ground from
Baron's Court, it's largely on viaducts rather than cuttings, so it
shouldn't be affected very much by leaf fall.

And the branch to Uxbridge, and the part in North London?

Very little of the eastern end is not underground.
The Acton Town to Rayner's Lane section is on viaducts from Park Royal most
of the way to Sudbury Town, where it's at ground level. It's then in a
shallow cutting till after Sudbury Hill, after which it's back on viaducts
to Rayner's Lane. It's then a mixture, but I can't think of any deep
cuttings on the rest of the route to Uxbridge. Remember that all of these
lines were built by the Met and District lines, rather than Tube railway
companies, and they preferred to build on or above ground level in the then
largely rural areas.

Given the service level of the piccadilly line on the uxbridge branch when I
occasionally used it while working in ealing a few years back, I suspect most
leaves on the line have a fairly undisturbed quiet life.

[Recliner]

Post by s***@potato.field
On Thu, 24 Nov 2016 11:43:36 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Recliner

Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 10:06:07 on Thu, 24 Nov 2016, Recliner

Post by Recliner
Incidentally, although the Piccadilly line is largely above ground from
Baron's Court, it's largely on viaducts rather than cuttings, so it
shouldn't be affected very much by leaf fall.

And the branch to Uxbridge, and the part in North London?

Very little of the eastern end is not underground.
The Acton Town to Rayner's Lane section is on viaducts from Park Royal most
of the way to Sudbury Town, where it's at ground level. It's then in a
shallow cutting till after Sudbury Hill, after which it's back on viaducts
to Rayner's Lane. It's then a mixture, but I can't think of any deep
cuttings on the rest of the route to Uxbridge. Remember that all of these
lines were built by the Met and District lines, rather than Tube railway
companies, and they preferred to build on or above ground level in the then
largely rural areas.

Given the service level of the piccadilly line on the uxbridge branch when I
occasionally used it while working in ealing a few years back, I suspect most
leaves on the line have a fairly undisturbed quiet life.

Well, that's certainly true today -- this is what was tweeted this morning:
"Due to shortage of serviceable trains there will be no service between
Acton Town and Uxbridge."

And from the web site:
"Piccadilly Line: No service between Acton Town and Uxbridge due to a
shortage of trains. SEVERE DELAYS on the rest of the line. Customers
travelling to stations between Rayners Lane and Uxbridge should use
Metropolitan line services. London Underground tickets will be accepted on
Chiltern Railways, Great Western, Southern, London Overground, London
Midland and local bus services via any reasonable route."

That's a reduction of at least 40% of the service (depending on how much
the Heathrow branch service has been reduced). The train situation must be
dire if they can't even run a limited shuttle service between Acton Town
and Rayner's Lane.

[s***@potato.field]

On Fri, 25 Nov 2016 08:34:08 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Recliner

Post by s***@potato.field
Given the service level of the piccadilly line on the uxbridge branch when I
occasionally used it while working in ealing a few years back, I suspect

most

Post by s***@potato.field
leaves on the line have a fairly undisturbed quiet life.

"Due to shortage of serviceable trains there will be no service between
Acton Town and Uxbridge."
"Piccadilly Line: No service between Acton Town and Uxbridge due to a
shortage of trains. SEVERE DELAYS on the rest of the line. Customers
travelling to stations between Rayners Lane and Uxbridge should use
Metropolitan line services. London Underground tickets will be accepted on
Chiltern Railways, Great Western, Southern, London Overground, London
Midland and local bus services via any reasonable route."

It certainly wasn't great this morning.

Post by Recliner
That's a reduction of at least 40% of the service (depending on how much
the Heathrow branch service has been reduced). The train situation must be
dire if they can't even run a limited shuttle service between Acton Town
and Rayner's Lane.

I would say that they'd found some serious fault in the trains and are keeping
it quiet while fixing them, but OTOH the unions would have a field day if that
was the case and we've heard nowt from them. Very odd.

[Recliner]

Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 25 Nov 2016 08:34:08 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Recliner

Post by s***@potato.field
Given the service level of the piccadilly line on the uxbridge branch when I
occasionally used it while working in ealing a few years back, I suspect

most

Post by s***@potato.field
leaves on the line have a fairly undisturbed quiet life.

"Due to shortage of serviceable trains there will be no service between
Acton Town and Uxbridge."
"Piccadilly Line: No service between Acton Town and Uxbridge due to a
shortage of trains. SEVERE DELAYS on the rest of the line. Customers
travelling to stations between Rayners Lane and Uxbridge should use
Metropolitan line services. London Underground tickets will be accepted on
Chiltern Railways, Great Western, Southern, London Overground, London
Midland and local bus services via any reasonable route."

It certainly wasn't great this morning.

The situation doesn't seem to have improved, with the Rayner's Lane branch
still suspended, and severe delays on the remaining services. So perhaps
half the fleet has been withdrawn.

Post by s***@potato.field

Post by Recliner
That's a reduction of at least 40% of the service (depending on how much
the Heathrow branch service has been reduced). The train situation must be
dire if they can't even run a limited shuttle service between Acton Town
and Rayner's Lane.

I would say that they'd found some serious fault in the trains and are keeping
it quiet while fixing them, but OTOH the unions would have a field day if that
was the case and we've heard nowt from them. Very odd.

Unless, of course, it's union action that's causing the problem? Is there
some dispute with the maintenance staff? Or are the drivers working to
rule about not taking out trains with even tiny, irrelevant defects?

If it really is as they say, then this level of failure is much more than
could be explained by wheel flats alone, though that may still be a
contributing factor. But I can't find any news reports about a major
technical problem.

[Basil Jet]

Post by Recliner

Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 25 Nov 2016 08:34:08 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Recliner

Post by s***@potato.field
Given the service level of the piccadilly line on the uxbridge branch when I
occasionally used it while working in ealing a few years back, I suspect

most

Post by s***@potato.field
leaves on the line have a fairly undisturbed quiet life.

"Due to shortage of serviceable trains there will be no service between
Acton Town and Uxbridge."
"Piccadilly Line: No service between Acton Town and Uxbridge due to a
shortage of trains. SEVERE DELAYS on the rest of the line. Customers
travelling to stations between Rayners Lane and Uxbridge should use
Metropolitan line services. London Underground tickets will be accepted on
Chiltern Railways, Great Western, Southern, London Overground, London
Midland and local bus services via any reasonable route."

It certainly wasn't great this morning.

The situation doesn't seem to have improved, with the Rayner's Lane branch
still suspended, and severe delays on the remaining services. So perhaps
half the fleet has been withdrawn.

Post by s***@potato.field

Post by Recliner
That's a reduction of at least 40% of the service (depending on how much
the Heathrow branch service has been reduced). The train situation must be
dire if they can't even run a limited shuttle service between Acton Town
and Rayner's Lane.

I would say that they'd found some serious fault in the trains and are keeping
it quiet while fixing them, but OTOH the unions would have a field day if that
was the case and we've heard nowt from them. Very odd.

Unless, of course, it's union action that's causing the problem? Is there
some dispute with the maintenance staff? Or are the drivers working to
rule about not taking out trains with even tiny, irrelevant defects?
If it really is as they say, then this level of failure is much more than
could be explained by wheel flats alone, though that may still be a
contributing factor. But I can't find any news reports about a major
technical problem.

If I counted correctly (unlikely) http://traintimes.org.uk/map/tube/
suggests that there are 35 Picc trains at the moment. The normal number
would be 68 to 78.

[s***@potato.field]

On Fri, 25 Nov 2016 10:37:10 +0000

Post by Basil Jet

Post by Recliner
If it really is as they say, then this level of failure is much more than
could be explained by wheel flats alone, though that may still be a
contributing factor. But I can't find any news reports about a major
technical problem.

If I counted correctly (unlikely) http://traintimes.org.uk/map/tube/
suggests that there are 35 Picc trains at the moment. The normal number
would be 68 to 78.

Over on District Daves forum they're saying its due to wheel flats from
leaves too. But I don't remember a time half of a lines stock all got serious
wheel flats at the same time and all had to be taken out of service. At the
very least, surely they could form up some 3 car units of servicable cars?
Would be better than nothing.

[unknown]

Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 25 Nov 2016 10:37:10 +0000

Post by Basil Jet

Post by Recliner
If it really is as they say, then this level of failure is much more than
could be explained by wheel flats alone, though that may still be a
contributing factor. But I can't find any news reports about a major
technical problem.

If I counted correctly (unlikely) http://traintimes.org.uk/map/tube/
suggests that there are 35 Picc trains at the moment. The normal number
would be 68 to 78.

Over on District Daves forum they're saying its due to wheel flats from
leaves too. But I don't remember a time half of a lines stock all got serious
wheel flats at the same time and all had to be taken out of service. At the
very least, surely they could form up some 3 car units of servicable cars?
Would be better than nothing.

BBC reporter is now saying it is wheel flats
<https://twitter.com/BBCTomEdwards/status/802080954953109504>

[Recliner]

Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 25 Nov 2016 10:37:10 +0000

Post by Basil Jet

Post by Recliner
If it really is as they say, then this level of failure is much more than
could be explained by wheel flats alone, though that may still be a
contributing factor. But I can't find any news reports about a major
technical problem.

If I counted correctly (unlikely) http://traintimes.org.uk/map/tube/
suggests that there are 35 Picc trains at the moment. The normal number
would be 68 to 78.

Over on District Daves forum they're saying its due to wheel flats from
leaves too. But I don't remember a time half of a lines stock all got serious
wheel flats at the same time and all had to be taken out of service. At the
very least, surely they could form up some 3 car units of servicable cars?
Would be better than nothing.

Yes, looking at that forum, it seems that the problem is down to not
enough RATs, plus, perhaps, poor driving technique.

I assume the 73TS doesn't have its own sanding gear?

[s***@potato.field]

On Fri, 25 Nov 2016 12:44:00 +0000

Post by Recliner

Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 25 Nov 2016 10:37:10 +0000

Post by Basil Jet

Post by Recliner
If it really is as they say, then this level of failure is much more than
could be explained by wheel flats alone, though that may still be a
contributing factor. But I can't find any news reports about a major
technical problem.

If I counted correctly (unlikely) http://traintimes.org.uk/map/tube/
suggests that there are 35 Picc trains at the moment. The normal number
would be 68 to 78.

Over on District Daves forum they're saying its due to wheel flats from
leaves too. But I don't remember a time half of a lines stock all got serious
wheel flats at the same time and all had to be taken out of service. At the
very least, surely they could form up some 3 car units of servicable cars?
Would be better than nothing.

Yes, looking at that forum, it seems that the problem is down to not
enough RATs, plus, perhaps, poor driving technique.

Unless they've got in a whole new batch of drivers this year I doubt its the
latter. And its not as if autumn leaves are a new occurance. The only thing
that makes sense is if they didn't send a RAT around as much as other years
because some of them are out of service and haven't been fixed in a foolhardy
effort to save a few quid. That turned out well.

Post by Recliner
I assume the 73TS doesn't have its own sanding gear?

Beats me, but I doubt it.

[Basil Jet]

Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 25 Nov 2016 12:44:00 +0000

Post by Recliner

Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 25 Nov 2016 10:37:10 +0000

Post by Basil Jet

Post by Recliner
If it really is as they say, then this level of failure is much more than
could be explained by wheel flats alone, though that may still be a
contributing factor. But I can't find any news reports about a major
technical problem.

If I counted correctly (unlikely) http://traintimes.org.uk/map/tube/
suggests that there are 35 Picc trains at the moment. The normal number
would be 68 to 78.

Over on District Daves forum they're saying its due to wheel flats from
leaves too. But I don't remember a time half of a lines stock all got serious
wheel flats at the same time and all had to be taken out of service. At the
very least, surely they could form up some 3 car units of servicable cars?
Would be better than nothing.

Yes, looking at that forum, it seems that the problem is down to not
enough RATs, plus, perhaps, poor driving technique.

Unless they've got in a whole new batch of drivers this year I doubt its the
latter. And its not as if autumn leaves are a new occurance. The only thing
that makes sense is if they didn't send a RAT around as much as other years
because some of them are out of service and haven't been fixed in a foolhardy
effort to save a few quid. That turned out well.

Post by Recliner
I assume the 73TS doesn't have its own sanding gear?

Beats me, but I doubt it.

The only thing I can think of is that various work is being done on
various bits of track across the network to make them more silent for
night time operation. While you might expect that to reduce wheel wear
rather than increase it, perhaps there are unintended consequences for
the 1973 stock. (Clutching at straws here.)

[Basil Jet]

Post by Basil Jet

Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 25 Nov 2016 12:44:00 +0000

Post by Recliner

Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 25 Nov 2016 10:37:10 +0000

Post by Basil Jet

Post by Recliner
If it really is as they say, then this level of failure is much more than
could be explained by wheel flats alone, though that may still be a
contributing factor. But I can't find any news reports about a major
technical problem.

If I counted correctly (unlikely) http://traintimes.org.uk/map/tube/
suggests that there are 35 Picc trains at the moment. The normal number
would be 68 to 78.

Over on District Daves forum they're saying its due to wheel flats from
leaves too. But I don't remember a time half of a lines stock all got serious
wheel flats at the same time and all had to be taken out of service. At the
very least, surely they could form up some 3 car units of servicable cars?
Would be better than nothing.

Yes, looking at that forum, it seems that the problem is down to not
enough RATs, plus, perhaps, poor driving technique.

Unless they've got in a whole new batch of drivers this year I doubt its the
latter. And its not as if autumn leaves are a new occurance. The only thing
that makes sense is if they didn't send a RAT around as much as other years
because some of them are out of service and haven't been fixed in a foolhardy
effort to save a few quid. That turned out well.

Post by Recliner
I assume the 73TS doesn't have its own sanding gear?

Beats me, but I doubt it.

The only thing I can think of is that various work is being done on
various bits of track across the network to make them more silent for
night time operation. While you might expect that to reduce wheel wear
rather than increase it, perhaps there are unintended consequences for
the 1973 stock. (Clutching at straws here.)

Oh, and there are loads of new drivers for the night shift.

[s***@potato.field]

On Fri, 25 Nov 2016 16:02:11 +0000

Post by Basil Jet

Post by Basil Jet
The only thing I can think of is that various work is being done on
various bits of track across the network to make them more silent for
night time operation. While you might expect that to reduce wheel wear
rather than increase it, perhaps there are unintended consequences for
the 1973 stock. (Clutching at straws here.)

Certainly an idea.

Post by Basil Jet
Oh, and there are loads of new drivers for the night shift.

They can't all be crap enough to put this many trains out of service though :)

[Recliner]

Post by Basil Jet

Post by Basil Jet

Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 25 Nov 2016 12:44:00 +0000

Post by Recliner

Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 25 Nov 2016 10:37:10 +0000

Post by Basil Jet

Post by Recliner
If it really is as they say, then this level of failure is much more than
could be explained by wheel flats alone, though that may still be a
contributing factor. But I can't find any news reports about a major
technical problem.

If I counted correctly (unlikely) http://traintimes.org.uk/map/tube/
suggests that there are 35 Picc trains at the moment. The normal number
would be 68 to 78.

Over on District Daves forum they're saying its due to wheel flats from
leaves too. But I don't remember a time half of a lines stock all got serious
wheel flats at the same time and all had to be taken out of service. At the
very least, surely they could form up some 3 car units of servicable cars?
Would be better than nothing.

Yes, looking at that forum, it seems that the problem is down to not
enough RATs, plus, perhaps, poor driving technique.

Unless they've got in a whole new batch of drivers this year I doubt its the
latter. And its not as if autumn leaves are a new occurance. The only thing
that makes sense is if they didn't send a RAT around as much as other years
because some of them are out of service and haven't been fixed in a foolhardy
effort to save a few quid. That turned out well.

Post by Recliner
I assume the 73TS doesn't have its own sanding gear?

Beats me, but I doubt it.

The only thing I can think of is that various work is being done on
various bits of track across the network to make them more silent for
night time operation. While you might expect that to reduce wheel wear
rather than increase it, perhaps there are unintended consequences for
the 1973 stock. (Clutching at straws here.)

Oh, and there are loads of new drivers for the night shift.

It was Angus that did it:

<http://www.londonreconnections.com/2016/wear-and-lathing-problem-with-the-piccadilly-lines-trains/>

[Recliner]

Post by Basil Jet

Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 25 Nov 2016 12:44:00 +0000

Post by Recliner

Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 25 Nov 2016 10:37:10 +0000

Post by Basil Jet

Post by Recliner
If it really is as they say, then this level of failure is much more than
could be explained by wheel flats alone, though that may still be a
contributing factor. But I can't find any news reports about a major
technical problem.

If I counted correctly (unlikely) http://traintimes.org.uk/map/tube/
suggests that there are 35 Picc trains at the moment. The normal number
would be 68 to 78.

Over on District Daves forum they're saying its due to wheel flats from
leaves too. But I don't remember a time half of a lines stock all got serious
wheel flats at the same time and all had to be taken out of service. At the
very least, surely they could form up some 3 car units of servicable cars?
Would be better than nothing.

Yes, looking at that forum, it seems that the problem is down to not
enough RATs, plus, perhaps, poor driving technique.

Unless they've got in a whole new batch of drivers this year I doubt its the
latter. And its not as if autumn leaves are a new occurance. The only thing
that makes sense is if they didn't send a RAT around as much as other years
because some of them are out of service and haven't been fixed in a foolhardy
effort to save a few quid. That turned out well.

Post by Recliner
I assume the 73TS doesn't have its own sanding gear?

Beats me, but I doubt it.

The only thing I can think of is that various work is being done on
various bits of track across the network to make them more silent for
night time operation. While you might expect that to reduce wheel wear
rather than increase it, perhaps there are unintended consequences for
the 1973 stock. (Clutching at straws here.)

I doubt that track improvements could have caused it.

Meanwhile, there's now a formal statement:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CyHXpBUWQAAY9Im?format=jpg&name=large

[Clive D.W. Feather]

Post by s***@potato.field
At the
very least, surely they could form up some 3 car units of servicable cars?
Would be better than nothing.

Half-length trains would raise issues with people standing at the wrong
place on the platform. If platforms are already busy because of the
reduced service, having people rush along it when the train doesn't stop
in front of them increases the risk of someone falling on to the track.

[Recliner]

Post by Clive D.W. Feather

Post by s***@potato.field
At the
very least, surely they could form up some 3 car units of servicable cars?
Would be better than nothing.

Half-length trains would raise issues with people standing at the wrong
place on the platform. If platforms are already busy because of the
reduced service, having people rush along it when the train doesn't stop
in front of them increases the risk of someone falling on to the track.

Yes, it would probably be unsafe.

In addition, I wonder if the double-ended 73 half sets are even capable of
running separately any more. For example, are the inner cabs still
functional? It's 22 years since they last ran in public service as half
sets, to Aldwych, and I don't think they've ever run as half sets on the
main line.

[s***@potato.field]

On Sun, 27 Nov 2016 23:15:51 +0000

Post by Clive D.W. Feather

Post by s***@potato.field
At the
very least, surely they could form up some 3 car units of servicable cars?
Would be better than nothing.

Half-length trains would raise issues with people standing at the wrong
place on the platform. If platforms are already busy because of the
reduced service, having people rush along it when the train doesn't stop
in front of them increases the risk of someone falling on to the track.

Odd we don't hear of mass casualties on the mainline network then when they
run short trains to crowded stations. Plus some lines on the tube used to do
it in the past IIRC.

[Recliner]

Post by Basil Jet

Post by Recliner

Post by s***@potato.field
On Fri, 25 Nov 2016 08:34:08 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Recliner

Post by s***@potato.field
Given the service level of the piccadilly line on the uxbridge branch when I
occasionally used it while working in ealing a few years back, I suspect

most

Post by s***@potato.field
leaves on the line have a fairly undisturbed quiet life.

"Due to shortage of serviceable trains there will be no service between
Acton Town and Uxbridge."
"Piccadilly Line: No service between Acton Town and Uxbridge due to a
shortage of trains. SEVERE DELAYS on the rest of the line. Customers
travelling to stations between Rayners Lane and Uxbridge should use
Metropolitan line services. London Underground tickets will be accepted on
Chiltern Railways, Great Western, Southern, London Overground, London
Midland and local bus services via any reasonable route."

It certainly wasn't great this morning.

The situation doesn't seem to have improved, with the Rayner's Lane branch
still suspended, and severe delays on the remaining services. So perhaps
half the fleet has been withdrawn.

Post by s***@potato.field

Post by Recliner
That's a reduction of at least 40% of the service (depending on how much
the Heathrow branch service has been reduced). The train situation must be
dire if they can't even run a limited shuttle service between Acton Town
and Rayner's Lane.

I would say that they'd found some serious fault in the trains and are keeping
it quiet while fixing them, but OTOH the unions would have a field day if that
was the case and we've heard nowt from them. Very odd.

Unless, of course, it's union action that's causing the problem? Is there
some dispute with the maintenance staff? Or are the drivers working to
rule about not taking out trains with even tiny, irrelevant defects?
If it really is as they say, then this level of failure is much more than
could be explained by wheel flats alone, though that may still be a
contributing factor. But I can't find any news reports about a major
technical problem.

If I counted correctly (unlikely) http://traintimes.org.uk/map/tube/
suggests that there are 35 Picc trains at the moment. The normal number
would be 68 to 78.

The wheel lathe must have been busy, as they've now added an infrequent
shuttle service to Rayner's Lane:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CyU5xoAWgAAd9my?format=jpg&name=large

[s***@potato.field]

On Mon, 28 Nov 2016 09:02:57 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Recliner

Post by Basil Jet
If I counted correctly (unlikely) http://traintimes.org.uk/map/tube/
suggests that there are 35 Picc trains at the moment. The normal number
would be 68 to 78.

The wheel lathe must have been busy, as they've now added an infrequent
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CyU5xoAWgAAd9my?format=jpg&name=large

Normal service is resumed then.

[Recliner]

Post by s***@potato.field
On Mon, 28 Nov 2016 09:02:57 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Recliner

Post by Basil Jet
If I counted correctly (unlikely) http://traintimes.org.uk/map/tube/
suggests that there are 35 Picc trains at the moment. The normal number
would be 68 to 78.

The wheel lathe must have been busy, as they've now added an infrequent
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CyU5xoAWgAAd9my?format=jpg&name=large

Normal service is resumed then.

Distinctly unusual service actually: there's both the 20 min train shuttle
service *and* a rail replacement bus service. The latter has the usual
motley selection of vehicles in many liveries, including at least one RM.
The bus service has an unusual route, usefully stopping at Hanger Lane
Central Line station instead of Park Royal. Some of the buses display the
BR arrows instead of the LU roundel.

[s***@potato.field]

On Thu, 1 Dec 2016 22:05:31 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Recliner

Post by s***@potato.field
On Mon, 28 Nov 2016 09:02:57 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Recliner

Post by Basil Jet
If I counted correctly (unlikely) http://traintimes.org.uk/map/tube/
suggests that there are 35 Picc trains at the moment. The normal number
would be 68 to 78.

The wheel lathe must have been busy, as they've now added an infrequent
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/CyU5xoAWgAAd9my?format=jpg&name=large

Normal service is resumed then.

Distinctly unusual service actually: there's both the 20 min train shuttle

I know, I was being sarcastic. Problem is that if my experience of using that
branch back in 2013 & 2014 is typical then the normal service is utterly
pathetic anyway. I remember sitting at Park Royal numerous times at 5.30pm
waiting normally 5-10 mins, sometimes up to 15, for a train to show up. God
knows how bad the service must have been outside of the rush hour.

Post by Recliner
service *and* a rail replacement bus service. The latter has the usual
motley selection of vehicles in many liveries, including at least one RM.
The bus service has an unusual route, usefully stopping at Hanger Lane
Central Line station instead of Park Royal. Some of the buses display the
BR arrows instead of the LU roundel.

Sounds like they've been dragged out of preservation.

[s***@potato.field]

On Fri, 25 Nov 2016 09:48:19 -0000 (UTC)

Post by BirchangerKen

Post by s***@potato.field
I would say that they'd found some serious fault in the trains and are

keeping

Post by s***@potato.field
it quiet while fixing them, but OTOH the unions would have a field day if

that

Post by s***@potato.field
was the case and we've heard nowt from them. Very odd.

Unless, of course, it's union action that's causing the problem? Is there
some dispute with the maintenance staff? Or are the drivers working to
rule about not taking out trains with even tiny, irrelevant defects?

Possibly, but you know how the RMT loves to boast about ever bit of industrial
action it takes and we've not heard anything about that. I suppose it could
be an unofficial work to rule with drivers just taking sickies. Wouldn't be
the first time.

[Recliner]

Post by Roland Perry
In message
mber.org>, at 10:16:47 on Wed, 23 Nov 2016, Recliner

Post by Recliner
I'm regularly seeing tweets from the Piccadilly Line that say that there's
a shortage of available trains. Is this some newly discovered technical
problem, or the result of union action? This fleet is regularly reported
as LU's most reliable.
Here's an example from this morning: "Apologies for the gaps in the
service, this is due to lack of available trains. Our staff are working
hard to resolve this issue."

Could be leaf-fall wheel flats. A lot of the Piccadilly line is in the
open air.

Yes, you were right. But I wonder why it's worse this year than
previous years? I used to commute on that line every day, and don't
remember anything like this.

[BirchangerKen]

On Wed, 23 Nov 2016 10:16:47 -0000 (UTC), Recliner

Post by Recliner
I'm regularly seeing tweets from the Piccadilly Line that say that there's
a shortage of available trains. Is this some newly discovered technical
problem, or the result of union action? This fleet is regularly reported
as LU's most reliable.
Here's an example from this morning: "Apologies for the gaps in the
service, this is due to lack of available trains. Our staff are working
hard to resolve this issue."
The gaps in service are causing overcrowding at busy stations, leading to
tweets like this, "Kings Cross station - Closed to prevent overcrowding.
Update to follow."
It's not just today -- it seems to be happening regularly.
These 40+ year old trains are expected to soldier on for the best part of a
decade before the NTfLs replace them, so I hope the problem is temporary.

The fly-on-the-wall series on the Tube a while back made much of the
73s being LUL's oldest stock, and how difficult it was keeping it in
service. One of the programmes was partly based around the fact that
there were, I think, 17 trains (units?) out of service due to failts
that day.

[Recliner]

Post by BirchangerKen
On Wed, 23 Nov 2016 10:16:47 -0000 (UTC), Recliner

Post by Recliner
I'm regularly seeing tweets from the Piccadilly Line that say that there's
a shortage of available trains. Is this some newly discovered technical
problem, or the result of union action? This fleet is regularly reported
as LU's most reliable.
Here's an example from this morning: "Apologies for the gaps in the
service, this is due to lack of available trains. Our staff are working
hard to resolve this issue."
The gaps in service are causing overcrowding at busy stations, leading to
tweets like this, "Kings Cross station - Closed to prevent overcrowding.
Update to follow."
It's not just today -- it seems to be happening regularly.
These 40+ year old trains are expected to soldier on for the best part of a
decade before the NTfLs replace them, so I hope the problem is temporary.

The fly-on-the-wall series on the Tube a while back made much of the
73s being LUL's oldest stock, and how difficult it was keeping it in
service. One of the programmes was partly based around the fact that
there were, I think, 17 trains (units?) out of service due to failts
that day.

It's not the oldest LU stock -- the 72 stock is three years older, and in
worse condition. I think Roland's suggestion of wheel flats in this leaf
fall season sounds the most likely explanation.

[s***@potato.field]

On Wed, 23 Nov 2016 21:34:51 +0000

Post by BirchangerKen
On Wed, 23 Nov 2016 10:16:47 -0000 (UTC), Recliner

Post by Recliner
These 40+ year old trains are expected to soldier on for the best part of a
decade before the NTfLs replace them, so I hope the problem is temporary.

The fly-on-the-wall series on the Tube a while back made much of the
73s being LUL's oldest stock, and how difficult it was keeping it in
service. One of the programmes was partly based around the fact that
there were, I think, 17 trains (units?) out of service due to failts
that day.

I'm fairly sure I remember as a kid , if there was a door fault on a car the
driver would get everyone out of it then somehow disable the doors on that
car only so no one could get in except via the gangway doors (which most
wouldn't do because then they couldn't get off in time if it was in the rush
hour). Now if theres any fault on a door anywhere on a train they take the
entire train out of service.

[Recliner]

Post by s***@potato.field
On Wed, 23 Nov 2016 21:34:51 +0000

Post by BirchangerKen
On Wed, 23 Nov 2016 10:16:47 -0000 (UTC), Recliner

Post by Recliner
These 40+ year old trains are expected to soldier on for the best part of a
decade before the NTfLs replace them, so I hope the problem is temporary.

The fly-on-the-wall series on the Tube a while back made much of the
73s being LUL's oldest stock, and how difficult it was keeping it in
service. One of the programmes was partly based around the fact that
there were, I think, 17 trains (units?) out of service due to failts
that day.

I'm fairly sure I remember as a kid , if there was a door fault on a car the
driver would get everyone out of it then somehow disable the doors on that
car only so no one could get in except via the gangway doors (which most
wouldn't do because then they couldn't get off in time if it was in the rush
hour). Now if theres any fault on a door anywhere on a train they take the
entire train out of service.

There was a similar issue with the 73s a few months ago (when a door opened
uncommanded in a moving train), but I thought that had been fixed. In that
case, the drivers refused to take them out. This seems to be different.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-35337580

[s***@potato.field]

On Thu, 24 Nov 2016 09:42:21 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Recliner

Post by s***@potato.field
On Wed, 23 Nov 2016 21:34:51 +0000

Post by BirchangerKen
On Wed, 23 Nov 2016 10:16:47 -0000 (UTC), Recliner

Post by Recliner
These 40+ year old trains are expected to soldier on for the best part of a
decade before the NTfLs replace them, so I hope the problem is temporary.

The fly-on-the-wall series on the Tube a while back made much of the
73s being LUL's oldest stock, and how difficult it was keeping it in
service. One of the programmes was partly based around the fact that
there were, I think, 17 trains (units?) out of service due to failts
that day.

I'm fairly sure I remember as a kid , if there was a door fault on a car the
driver would get everyone out of it then somehow disable the doors on that
car only so no one could get in except via the gangway doors (which most
wouldn't do because then they couldn't get off in time if it was in the rush
hour). Now if theres any fault on a door anywhere on a train they take the
entire train out of service.

There was a similar issue with the 73s a few months ago (when a door opened
uncommanded in a moving train), but I thought that had been fixed. In that
case, the drivers refused to take them out. This seems to be different.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-35337580

That video of "doors opening on a moving train" is pretty obviously simply
down to a driver who opened the doors 1 second before the train had fully
stopped. Happens fairly often in my experience. Good to see the BBC keeping
up their usual standards of not having a clue.

[Offramp]

The problem may have been caused by LUL using cheap steel on the wheels.

[Recliner]

Post by Offramp
The problem may have been caused by LUL using cheap steel on the wheels.

Does LU use different a different grade of steel in its rails to NR? Why
would that cause wheel flats, as opposed to broken rails?

And why would it be much worse this autumn?

[s***@potato.field]

On Mon, 28 Nov 2016 20:23:50 -0000 (UTC)

Post by Recliner

Post by Offramp
The problem may have been caused by LUL using cheap steel on the wheels.

Does LU use different a different grade of steel in its rails to NR? Why
would that cause wheel flats, as opposed to broken rails?
And why would it be much worse this autumn?

I know this sounds a bit contrary, but wouldn't it make more sense to make
the wheels of harder steel than the rails, so upon slippage its the rail
that wears out and not the wheel? Because it seems to me it would cause less
problems since the rail would wear out along a length instead of one spot
on the wheel and when it did need to be changed it would be a lot simpler
than jacking up a whole load of trains and putting their wheels on a lathe.