So you have access to a Polymorph Any Object spell...

Post by Tetsubo
And you are a wizard with a rat familiar. If you turn that rat into a
human, are they still your familiar?
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/spells/polymorphAnyObject.html#polymorph-any-object
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/classes/wizard.html#wizard

According to the spell description, the spell only lasts for a week,
assumning familiars are not the "Animal" type, but if the type is changed,
I don't think it remains a familiar.

--
Referring to Trump, Michelle said she hasn't heard such words
demeaning women since, well since Wednesday night's White House
hip-hop party.

d***@bin.sh

2016-10-18 15:38:29 UTC

Post by Tetsubo
And you are a wizard with a rat familiar. If you turn that rat into
a human, are they still your familiar?

yes, but they become eligible for a 15gp/hour minimum wage and
full health benefits.

--
._n_______n_. ***@bin.sh (CARRIER LOST) <http://www.bin.sh/>
| --------- |== -----------------------------------------------------------
I"/""|"|Z7""' "Well, yes, it did occur to me that I might
lJ | | hit one or two civilians. But I never
|_l really thought I would hit all of them." -- Axly

Joanna Rowland Stuart

2016-10-25 23:04:00 UTC

Post by Tetsubo
And you are a wizard with a rat familiar. If you turn that rat into
a human, are they still your familiar?

First, the rat familiar has an INT of 6 - 15 depending on its master's
level.
It will be possible for the familiar to consent to the change.

The post-polymorph human will then have the same INT as before.

If the change is without the familiar's consent, it will become a human
1st level commoner NPC. The familiar bond will break. It will have half
it's ex-master's HD. HD will be a d6. Roll for new HP. Stats will be from
a 13, 12, 11, 10, 9, 8 array (except INT which is as above). It will
speak the languages it spoke before (both with its master and other
beasts).
It will retain the skills it had acquired while it was still a familiar,
but quite possibly at a lower rank.
It may or not be unfriendly or hostile towards its former master.

The human will still be a familiar if the change has been done willingly -
the bond would not be broken.

If the bond remains the human familiar will still know and be able to use
other any languages other than Beast that its master knows (although it
will not be fluent).

It will retain the skills it gains through its link with its master, at
the same rank.

It will advance in HP and HD just like the rat familiar would have.

It will need to learn many new things such as human habits (e.g. clothes,
eating with cutlery, etiquette etc), and unlearn rat habits, although it
probably will occasionally act like Ratty from Wind in the Willows.

The wizard will benefit from the special abilities a familiar gives it.

The duration factor increase is +5 (animal-animal) +2 (mammal-mammal) +2
(same or lower INT), thus permanent.

Cheers
JOanna

2016-10-26 10:48:41 UTC

Post by Tetsubo
And you are a wizard with a rat familiar. If you turn that rat into
a human, are they still your familiar?

That's not RAW, is it?

Polymorph functions like greater polymorph, which has no effect on
unwilling creatures. So without consent, the spell would simply fail.

Post by Joanna Rowland Stuart
The human will still be a familiar if the change has been done willingly -
the bond would not be broken.

Would a human be willing to become a rat to humor a friend?
IMC, no familiar would be willing. :)

By RAW the type and subtype stay the same, only the "form" changes.
And only those changes mentioned in the rules take place, anything else
is unaffected.

Post by Joanna Rowland Stuart
The duration factor increase is +5 (animal-animal) +2 (mammal-mammal) +2
(same or lower INT), thus permanent.

Now that I think about it, this table is bad. The kingdom and class
categories are real-world "sciency" and quite arbitrary...
a manticore is a mammal...why not an insect? Maybe it lays eggs
for all I know.

Anyway, in a fantasy world we have much better categories :-)
Creature type and subtype are already game terms, why didn't
they put those into the table??

Same type +5, same (or no) subtype +2

(magical beast-humanoid) 0, (same Int) +2 => 1 hour duration...

And another point: the spell might be permanent, but it's
still dismissable. If the rat is fed up with being a human,
it just changes back into it's real, beloved rat form.

LL

Joanna Rowland Stuart

2016-10-26 23:02:00 UTC

Post by LL
Polymorph functions like greater polymorph,

Quite simply, NO

From the OP - the reference is
http://paizo.com/pathfinderRPG/prd/coreRulebook/spells/polymorphAnyObject.
html#polymorph-any-object

(NB *Pathfinder* )

Also http://www.d20pfsrd.com/magic/all-spells/p/polymorph-any-object

++++

Polymorph Any Object

School transmutation (polymorph); Level sorcerer/wizard 8

Casting Time 1 standard action

Components V, S, M/DF (mercury, gum arabic, and smoke)

Range close (25 ft. + 5 ft./2 levels)

Target one creature, or one nonmagical object of up to 100 cu. ft./level

Duration see text

Saving Throw Fortitude negates (object); see text; Spell Resistance yes
(object)

This spell functions like greater polymorph, except that it changes one
object or creature into another. You can use this spell to transform all
manner of objects and creatures into new formsyou aren't limited to
transforming a living creature into another living form. The duration of
the spell depends on how radical a change is made from the original state
to its transmuted state. The duration is determined by using the
following guidelines.
Changed Subject Is Increase to Duration Factor*
Same kingdom (animal, vegetable, mineral) +5
Same class (mammals, fungi, metals, etc.) +2
Same size +2
Related (twig is to tree, wolf fur is to wolf, etc.) +2
Same or lower Intelligence +2
*Add all that apply. Look up the total on the next table.

Duration Factor Duration Example
0 20 minutes Pebble to human
2 1 hour Marionette to human
4 3 hours Human to marionette
5 12 hours Lizard to manticore
6 2 days Sheep to wool coat
7 1 week Shrew to manticore
9+ Permanent Manticore to shrew

If the target of the spell does not have physical ability scores
(Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution), this spell grants a base score of
10 to each missing ability score. If the target of the spell does not
have mental ability scores (Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma), this
spell grants a score of 5 to such scores. Damage taken by the new form
can result in the injury or death of the polymorphed creature. In general,
damage occurs when the new form is changed through physical force. A
nonmagical object cannot be made into a magic item with this spell. Magic
items aren't affected by this spell.

This spell cannot create material of great intrinsic value, such as
copper, silver, gems, silk, gold, platinum, mithral, or adamantine. It
also cannot reproduce the special properties of cold iron in order to
overcome the damage reduction of certain creatures.

This spell can also be used to duplicate the effects of baleful polymorph,
greater polymorph, flesh to stone, stone to flesh, transmute mud to rock,
transmute metal to wood, or transmute rock to mud.

++++

It has a saving throw. (Fortitude)
It therefore CAN act upon an unwilling creature.
A willing creature will forgo the saving throw.
An unwilling creature that fails the Fort save still transforms.

Cheers
JOanna

2016-10-27 17:23:14 UTC

Post by LL
Polymorph functions like greater polymorph,

Quite simply, NO

I meant: Polymorph any object functions like greater polymorph,

Post by Joanna Rowland Stuart
This spell functions like greater polymorph, except that it changes one
object or creature into another. You can use this spell to transform all
manner of objects and creatures into new formsyou aren't limited to
transforming a living creature into another living form.

You quoted it yourself...

<snip>

Post by Joanna Rowland Stuart
This spell can also be used to duplicate the effects of baleful polymorph,
greater polymorph, flesh to stone, stone to flesh, transmute mud to rock,
transmute metal to wood, or transmute rock to mud.
++++
It has a saving throw. (Fortitude)

Only on objects IMNSHO, otherwise the save is stated as "see text"...
...where you find "This spell functions like greater polymorph".

Post by Joanna Rowland Stuart
It therefore CAN act upon an unwilling creature.

In the scenario we are discussing, no.
You could duplicate Baleful Polymorph with it,
but then you can not transform a rat into a human,
only the other way round, because this spell changes
"the subject into a Small or smaller animal of no more than 1 HD"

Post by Joanna Rowland Stuart
A willing creature will forgo the saving throw.
An unwilling creature that fails the Fort save still transforms.

I don't think so :-)

LL

Joanna Rowland Stuart

2016-10-26 23:05:00 UTC

Post by LL
And another point: the spell might be permanent, but it's
still dismissable. If the rat is fed up with being a human,
it just changes back into it's real, beloved rat form.

The spell is not dismissible as there's no (D) in the duration entry for
the spell. It is subject to Dispel Magic.

Cheers
JOanna

2016-10-27 17:28:42 UTC

Post by LL
And another point: the spell might be permanent, but it's
still dismissable. If the rat is fed up with being a human,
it just changes back into it's real, beloved rat form.

The spell is not dismissible as there's no (D) in the duration entry for
the spell. It is subject to Dispel Magic.
Cheers
JOanna

PaO says:
"Duration see text"

The text says:
"Functions like Greater Polymorph:"

which says:
"Duration 1 min/level (D)"
"Saving Throw Will negates (harmless)"

"This spell transforms a willing creature into ..."

(We are not talking about duplicating Baleful Polymorph here)

LL

Ubiquitous

2016-10-31 22:42:10 UTC

Post by Tetsubo
And you are a wizard with a rat familiar. If you turn that rat into
a human, are they still your familiar?

First, the rat familiar has an INT of 6 - 15 depending on its master's
level.
It will be possible for the familiar to consent to the change.

If memory serves, creatures are never willing to change, therefore they
always make a saving throw.

--
BREAKING NEWS
In other news, somehow Crooked Hillary still isn't in prison...

Ralph Glatt

2016-10-28 13:57:14 UTC

This thread reminds me of something that happened with one of my party members from the first time I played. He wanted to cast Polymorph Other on himself so he could become an elf. I offered to do it for him, but he wasn't too keen on letting me have a new spell. IIRC, the DM didn't allow it.

Tetsubo

2016-10-28 19:39:47 UTC

Perfectly viable spell use. Great way for a human to end up living ten
times as long as usual. It would have almost no impact on a campaign.
How many campaigns last hundreds of years with the same party?

--
Tetsubo
Deviant Art: http://ironstaff.deviantart.com/
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/tetsubo57

Justisaur

2016-10-31 17:05:28 UTC

This thread reminds me of something that happened with one of my party
members from the first time I played. He wanted to cast Polymorph
Other on himself so he could become an elf. I offered to do it for
him, but he wasn't too keen on letting me have a new spell. IIRC, the
DM didn't allow it.

Perfectly viable spell use. Great way for a human to end up living
ten times as long as usual. It would have almost no impact on a
campaign. How many campaigns last hundreds of years with the same party?

Interesting, one dispell or anti-magic area away from being suddenly
long past your maximum age though. I found magic jar far more reliable,
but possibly evil :)

- Justisaur

Tetsubo

2016-10-31 20:46:40 UTC

Post by Justisaur

This thread reminds me of something that happened with one of my party
members from the first time I played. He wanted to cast Polymorph
Other on himself so he could become an elf. I offered to do it for
him, but he wasn't too keen on letting me have a new spell. IIRC, the
DM didn't allow it.

Perfectly viable spell use. Great way for a human to end up living
ten times as long as usual. It would have almost no impact on a
campaign. How many campaigns last hundreds of years with the same party?

Interesting, one dispell or anti-magic area away from being suddenly
long past your maximum age though. I found magic jar far more reliable,
but possibly evil :)
- Justisaur

I wouldn't rule it that way. If a human at middle age became an elf,
they'd end up a middle aged elf. So if an old elf were turned back into
a human they would just be an old human.

--
Tetsubo
Deviant Art: http://ironstaff.deviantart.com/
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/tetsubo57

Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy

2016-10-31 20:55:43 UTC

Post by Justisaur
Interesting, one dispell or anti-magic area away from being
suddenly long past your maximum age though. I found magic jar
far more reliable, but possibly evil :)

Magic jar is also a way to a) poison a village well, b) get
identified, but not caught immediately, c) have a very large reward
posted for your capture, and d) turn *yourself* in - dead.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Loren Pechtel

2016-11-04 03:31:13 UTC

Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy

On Mon, 31 Oct 2016 13:55:43 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy

Post by Justisaur
Interesting, one dispell or anti-magic area away from being
suddenly long past your maximum age though. I found magic jar
far more reliable, but possibly evil :)

Magic jar is also a way to a) poison a village well, b) get
identified, but not caught immediately, c) have a very large reward
posted for your capture, and d) turn *yourself* in - dead.

Oh, that is evil! You could do all sorts of dastardly deeds that way
and make a living off the rewards.

Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy

2016-11-04 04:32:45 UTC

Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy

Post by Loren Pechtel
On Mon, 31 Oct 2016 13:55:43 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying

Post by Justisaur
Interesting, one dispell or anti-magic area away from being
suddenly long past your maximum age though. I found magic jar
far more reliable, but possibly evil :)

Magic jar is also a way to a) poison a village well, b) get
identified, but not caught immediately, c) have a very large
reward posted for your capture, and d) turn *yourself* in -
dead.

Oh, that is evil!

Well, yes.

Post by Loren Pechtel
You could do all sorts of dastardly deeds
that way and make a living off the rewards.

The particular player had too much pride in his evilness to ever use
the same trick twice.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Rick Pikul/Chakat Firepaw

2016-11-05 02:47:52 UTC

Post by Loren Pechtel
On Mon, 31 Oct 2016 13:55:43 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy

Post by Justisaur
Interesting, one dispell or anti-magic area away from being suddenly
long past your maximum age though. I found magic jar far more
reliable, but possibly evil :)

Magic jar is also a way to a) poison a village well, b) get identified,
but not caught immediately, c) have a very large reward posted for your
capture, and d) turn *yourself* in - dead.

Oh, that is evil! You could do all sorts of dastardly deeds that way
and make a living off the rewards.

Try Pathfinder's "Major Mind Swap": It not only lets you do the whole
turn yourself in thing but also lets you do age resets as you steal the
bodies of healthy young people.

So, poison some wells.
Get the reward posted, (it does need to be kind of big, so hit up a city
with something nasty).
Be the hotheaded son of the baron who goes after the madman behind it,
and actually pulls it off.
Smile as his last words are claiming that he's really you, (see, he
really was mad).
A year later, grieve the deaths of your parents. (Of course you are
innocent, there is no way a young nobleman such as yourself could cast
spells of such power.)

--
Chakat Firepaw - Inventor and Scientist (mad)

JimP.

2016-11-08 03:12:04 UTC

Post by Rick Pikul/Chakat Firepaw

On Sat, 5 Nov 2016 02:47:52 -0000 (UTC), Rick Pikul/Chakat Firepaw

Post by Loren Pechtel
On Mon, 31 Oct 2016 13:55:43 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy

Post by Justisaur
Interesting, one dispell or anti-magic area away from being suddenly
long past your maximum age though. I found magic jar far more
reliable, but possibly evil :)

Magic jar is also a way to a) poison a village well, b) get identified,
but not caught immediately, c) have a very large reward posted for your
capture, and d) turn *yourself* in - dead.

Oh, that is evil! You could do all sorts of dastardly deeds that way
and make a living off the rewards.

Try Pathfinder's "Major Mind Swap": It not only lets you do the whole
turn yourself in thing but also lets you do age resets as you steal the
bodies of healthy young people.
So, poison some wells.
Get the reward posted, (it does need to be kind of big, so hit up a city
with something nasty).
Be the hotheaded son of the baron who goes after the madman behind it,
and actually pulls it off.
Smile as his last words are claiming that he's really you, (see, he
really was mad).
A year later, grieve the deaths of your parents. (Of course you are
innocent, there is no way a young nobleman such as yourself could cast
spells of such power.)

Sounds like The Master from Dr. Who.

Ralph Glatt

2016-11-01 14:01:30 UTC

I think the main idea he had was to be able to play a multiclass character.

Tetsubo

2016-11-01 22:04:54 UTC

I think the main idea he had was to be able to play a multiclass character.

The fact that a human couldn't do that was one of the many, many flaws
of earlier editions of D&D. The player found a logical solution to that
glaring flaw and the GM seems to have shot him down. I'd walk away from
a game like that.

--
Tetsubo
Deviant Art: http://ironstaff.deviantart.com/
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/tetsubo57

Joanna Rowland Stuart

2016-11-02 10:57:00 UTC

Post by Tetsubo
The fact that a human couldn't do that was one of the many, many
flaws of earlier editions of D&D. The player found a logical
solution to that glaring flaw and the GM seems to have shot him
down. I'd walk away from a game like that.

I'd walk away from a game where the DM insisted on only RAW, no house
rules, etc.

Cheers
JOanna

Tetsubo

2016-11-02 11:18:05 UTC

I'd walk away from a game where the DM insisted on only RAW, no house
rules, etc.
Cheers
JOanna

*Every* game has house rules. Even the ones that claim to be RAW. They
are just 'assumed' rules that no one questions. The most dangerous words
in any language are, "This is how we've always done it."

--
Tetsubo
Deviant Art: http://ironstaff.deviantart.com/
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/tetsubo57

Justisaur

2016-11-03 16:27:20 UTC

I'd walk away from a game where the DM insisted on only RAW, no house
rules, etc.
Cheers
JOanna

If you're talking pre 3e I'd agree, as there are areas you have to do a lot of interpreting. If you're talking 4e I'd disagree, you can follow the rules btb without any house rules. 3e is questionable, you could possibly run a btb game, and most people think they are, but there can still be quite a bit of interpretation. 5e is full of 'DM decides' stuff so again we're back to no game without house rules.

- Justisaur

Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

2016-11-03 19:03:18 UTC

Post by Justisaur

I'd walk away from a game where the DM insisted on only RAW, no house
rules, etc.
Cheers
JOanna

Outside of conventions I have never seen a fully By The Book game. I've
seen ones that CLAIMED to be, and then you'd notice them doing SOMETHING
different, and "oh, yeah, but that's the only difference".... and then
another...

Admittedly, there's variation. The difference between my game and 1e/2e
was immense -- over years the accretion of house rules ended up bringing
in something like 20 other systems for various purposes, not to mention
original additions. 3e I've run much closer to the book, but except for
when I was playtesting never 100%.

I can't think of a single RPG I ever ran By The Book for any length of
time.

--
Sea Wasp
/^\
;;;
Website: http://www.grandcentralarena.com Blog:
http://seawasp.livejournal.com

Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy

2016-11-03 20:10:11 UTC

Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)
I can't think of a single RPG I ever ran By The Book for
any length of
time.

We played 1st edition Chivalry & Sorcery strictly by the book (minus
magic, but with *no* house rules) for a long, long campaign.

The game I'm running right now is . . . not RAW. The abovementioned
experience highlighted several weaknesses in the 1st edition rules
quite starkly.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

Tetsubo

2016-11-03 22:32:52 UTC

Post by Sea Wasp (Ryk E. Spoor)

Post by Justisaur

I'd walk away from a game where the DM insisted on only RAW, no house
rules, etc.
Cheers
JOanna

If you're talking pre 3e I'd agree, as there are areas you have to do
a lot of interpreting. If you're talking 4e I'd disagree, you can
follow the rules btb without any house rules. 3e is questionable, you
could possibly run a btb game, and most people think they are, but
there can still be quite a bit of interpretation. 5e is full of 'DM
decides' stuff so again we're back to no game without house rules.

Outside of conventions I have never seen a fully By The Book game.
I've seen ones that CLAIMED to be, and then you'd notice them doing
SOMETHING different, and "oh, yeah, but that's the only difference"....
and then another...
Admittedly, there's variation. The difference between my game and
1e/2e was immense -- over years the accretion of house rules ended up
bringing in something like 20 other systems for various purposes, not to
mention original additions. 3e I've run much closer to the book, but
except for when I was playtesting never 100%.
I can't think of a single RPG I ever ran By The Book for any length
of time.

Nor can I. I had a multi-page list of 3E house rules before we even
started the first campaign.

--
Tetsubo
Deviant Art: http://ironstaff.deviantart.com/
YouTube: http://www.youtube.com/user/tetsubo57

JimP.

2016-11-08 03:14:25 UTC

I think the main idea he had was to be able to play a multiclass character.

I've added the multi-class human into my game world.

http://crestofastar.drivein-jim.net/docs/articles/72/multi-class-for-human-characters

h***@gmail.com

2016-11-08 04:15:31 UTC

Post by JimP.

I think the main idea he had was to be able to play a multiclass character.

I've added the multi-class human into my game world.
http://crestofastar.drivein-jim.net/docs/articles/72/multi-class-for-human-characters

Of course the human did have the option of dual classing which no other race had access to...
and was never limited to a single digit level in a class they did take...

JimP.

2016-11-08 17:34:38 UTC

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by JimP.