Shula

[kosmo]

Idiot woman. Her personal spending of 8k cannot be compared with the
vet practice investing 0.25m in its future.

The hunt is a business in its own right and the cost would be borne
by the members. Shula might lend the hunt the money short term until
a suitable fund raising opportunity rears its head. She should be
asking Oliver and Rafe now, not later. A telephone is a wonderful
invention, they have them in Italy I believe.

Again distressed by the way the story is being constructed by the
editor who clearly does not know how these things work. How long
should he be given do you think?

I am only a week behind now.

[Btms]

Post by kosmo
Idiot woman. Her personal spending of 8k cannot be compared with the
vet practice investing 0.25m in its future.
The hunt is a business in its own right and the cost would be borne
by the members. Shula might lend the hunt the money short term until
a suitable fund raising opportunity rears its head. She should be
asking Oliver and Rafe now, not later. A telephone is a wonderful
invention, they have them in Italy I believe.
Again distressed by the way the story is being constructed by the
editor who clearly does not know how these things work. How long
should he be given do you think?
I am only a week behind now.

I think you will find it is Ralph. It does cost money to be a Hunt Master
but I agree this scenario is crazy.
The vet practice is a business where investment is designed to earn
financial reward. Hunting is a pastime entered into for pleasure. There
is no profit factor.

I will leave the argument as to weather killing foxes in this way or any
other is desirable or acceptable, to one side.

[Btms]

Post by Btms
I will leave the argument as to weather killing foxes in this way or any
other is desirable or acceptable, to one side.

Of course the weather may kill foxes but not in this context. 😜

[kosmo]

Post by Btms
financial reward. Hunting is a pastime entered into for pleasure.

There

Post by Btms
is no profit factor.

It is a business that has at least one employee and needs to fund
dogs etc. So it needs to be run sensibly not on the whim of what an
individual can afford so should develop reserves.

Rafe Spall might not agree with you.

[Btms]

Post by kosmo

Post by Btms
financial reward. Hunting is a pastime entered into for pleasure.

There

Post by Btms
is no profit factor.

It is a business that has at least one employee and needs to fund
dogs etc. So it needs to be run sensibly not on the whim of what an
individual can afford so should develop reserves.
Rafe Spall might not agree with you.

He might but a Hunt Master in the Shire Counties would know better. With
your demand for absolute exactness and verisimilitude, I am surprised you
can tolerate Rafe as a spelling. I don't think a hunt is a business in
the way veterinary practice is. It is more like a charity aivi; but you
may be right.

[kosmo]

Post by Btms
the way veterinary practice is. It is more like a charity aivi; but you
may be right.

All charities are businesses. They gave to garner income to match
expenditure. Kids Co was an example where inadequate reserves were
held to sustain running costs.

[Btms]

Post by Btms

Post by Btms
the way veterinary practice is. It is more like a charity aivi;

but you

Post by Btms
may be right.

All charities are businesses. They gave to garner income to match
expenditure. Kids Co was an example where inadequate reserves were
held to sustain running costs.

Up to a point yes they are. But the charity commission are rather tight on
what they consider adequate as reserves. Anyway the hunts are not
registered charities but in my view function as if it they are. They do
lots of fund raising events which seem to be the major source of their
income. Plus I assume folk pay to hunt and/or have some sort of
membership.

[kosmo]

Post by Btms
Up to a point yes they are. But the charity commission are rather tight on
what they consider adequate as reserves. Anyway the hunts are not
registered charities but in my view function as if it they are.

They do

Charity accounts have to identify the right level of reserves for a
charity. The CC only has a right of comment if they feel inadequate
amounts are expended on charitable aims.

A hunt is a business, it should have a business plan and appropriate
reserves and should not depend on the good nature of the Master(s).

My view is that if the subscription and cap payments are not meeting
ordinary running costs then management is defective!

[Penny]

On Sun, 02 Apr 2017 15:36:52 +0300, kosmo <***@whitnet.uk> scrawled in the
dust...

Post by Btms

Post by Btms
Up to a point yes they are. But the charity commission are rather

tight on

Post by Btms
what they consider adequate as reserves. Anyway the hunts are not
registered charities but in my view function as if it they are.

They do
Charity accounts have to identify the right level of reserves for a
charity. The CC only has a right of comment if they feel inadequate
amounts are expended on charitable aims.
A hunt is a business, it should have a business plan and appropriate
reserves and should not depend on the good nature of the Master(s).

Maybe it's more like a town council where, AIUI, the Mayor is expected to
pay for much of the stuff which goes with his position and can't be
justified expenditure from council funds.

Post by Btms
My view is that if the subscription and cap payments are not meeting
ordinary running costs then management is defective!

[Btms]

Post by Penny
dust...

Post by Btms

Post by Btms
Up to a point yes they are. But the charity commission are rather

tight on

Post by Btms
what they consider adequate as reserves. Anyway the hunts are not
registered charities but in my view function as if it they are.

They do
Charity accounts have to identify the right level of reserves for a
charity. The CC only has a right of comment if they feel inadequate
amounts are expended on charitable aims.
A hunt is a business, it should have a business plan and appropriate
reserves and should not depend on the good nature of the Master(s).

Maybe it's more like a town council where, AIUI, the Mayor is expected to
pay for much of the stuff which goes with his position and can't be
justified expenditure from council funds.

Post by Btms
My view is that if the subscription and cap payments are not meeting
ordinary running costs then management is defective!

And this may work to keep hoi polloi in their place if they can't fund the
enterprise. I mean to say we don't want the likes of those Grundy folk
becoming The Master, do we. It is bad enough to be having women in the
cricket team.

[Fenny]

Post by Penny
Maybe it's more like a town council where, AIUI, the Mayor is expected to
pay for much of the stuff which goes with his position and can't be
justified expenditure from council funds.

Sounds rather like being a teacher, where actual school supplies are
no longer deemed justifiable expenditure!!!

[Penny]

On Sun, 02 Apr 2017 18:46:19 +0100, Fenny <***@onetel.com>
scrawled in the dust...

Post by Fenny

Post by Penny
Maybe it's more like a town council where, AIUI, the Mayor is expected to
pay for much of the stuff which goes with his position and can't be
justified expenditure from council funds.

Sounds rather like being a teacher, where actual school supplies are
no longer deemed justifiable expenditure!!!

I heard a news item the other day about a school who were asking parents to
donate money for school supplies rather than charity on a mufti day.

[Chris McMillan]

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by Fenny

Post by Penny
Maybe it's more like a town council where, AIUI, the Mayor is expected to
pay for much of the stuff which goes with his position and can't be
justified expenditure from council funds.

Sounds rather like being a teacher, where actual school supplies are
no longer deemed justifiable expenditure!!!

I heard a news item the other day about a school who were asking parents to
donate money for school supplies rather than charity on a mufti day.

Yes, which was the day I read about the loo rolls specifically.

Sincerely Chris

[Chris McMillan]

Post by Fenny

Post by Penny
Maybe it's more like a town council where, AIUI, the Mayor is expected to
pay for much of the stuff which goes with his position and can't be
justified expenditure from council funds.

Sounds rather like being a teacher, where actual school supplies are
no longer deemed justifiable expenditure!!!

And parents provide loo rolls instead of cash donations (actually I rather
like this)

Sincerely Chris

[Fenny]

On Sun, 02 Apr 2017 18:02:16 GMT, Chris McMillan

Post by Chris McMillan

Post by Fenny
Sounds rather like being a teacher, where actual school supplies are
no longer deemed justifiable expenditure!!!

And parents provide loo rolls instead of cash donations (actually I rather
like this)

When I was at school, most people took their own supply of toilet
paper. The school supplied stuff was the nasty Izal stuff and was
mostly festooned around the floor. You *could* go to the deputy
head's office and ask for some, but it was still the useless variety.
We all kept a stash in our bags/blazer pockets.

[Btms]

Post by Fenny
On Sun, 02 Apr 2017 18:02:16 GMT, Chris McMillan

Post by Chris McMillan

Post by Fenny
Sounds rather like being a teacher, where actual school supplies are
no longer deemed justifiable expenditure!!!

And parents provide loo rolls instead of cash donations (actually I rather
like this)

When I was at school, most people took their own supply of toilet
paper. The school supplied stuff was the nasty Izal stuff and was
mostly festooned around the floor. You *could* go to the deputy
head's office and ask for some, but it was still the useless variety.
We all kept a stash in our bags/blazer pockets.

How undignified.

[BrritSki]

Post by Fenny
On Sun, 02 Apr 2017 18:02:16 GMT, Chris McMillan

Post by Chris McMillan

Post by Fenny
Sounds rather like being a teacher, where actual school supplies are
no longer deemed justifiable expenditure!!!

And parents provide loo rolls instead of cash donations (actually I rather
like this)

When I was at school, most people took their own supply of toilet
paper. The school supplied stuff was the nasty Izal stuff and was
mostly festooned around the floor. You *could* go to the deputy
head's office and ask for some, but it was still the useless variety.
We all kept a stash in our bags/blazer pockets.

I don't think I EVER needed TP at school. But then I never staued for
school dinners which may have had something to do with it - in several ways.

[Penny]

On Sun, 2 Apr 2017 21:25:31 +0200, BrritSki <***@gmail.com>
scrawled in the dust...

Post by BrritSki
I don't think I EVER needed TP at school. But then I never staued for
school dinners which may have had something to do with it - in several ways.

That and the fact you were a boy. I still shudder at the thought of using
that horrible tracing paper for wiping my tender parts. I've never
understood why anyone ever thought it appropriate for the job.

Oddly (I always thought) at my grandparents' house they had both types
available in their specially designed ceramic holders so I suppose at least
one of them found the tough stuff useful.

[Btms]

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by BrritSki
I don't think I EVER needed TP at school. But then I never staued for
school dinners which may have had something to do with it - in several ways.

That and the fact you were a boy. I still shudder at the thought of using
that horrible tracing paper for wiping my tender parts. I've never
understood why anyone ever thought it appropriate for the job.
Oddly (I always thought) at my grandparents' house they had both types
available in their specially designed ceramic holders so I suppose at least
one of them found the tough stuff useful.

My grandmother favoured the Daily Mirror.

[Sally Thompson]

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by BrritSki
I don't think I EVER needed TP at school. But then I never staued for
school dinners which may have had something to do with it - in several ways.

That and the fact you were a boy. I still shudder at the thought of using
that horrible tracing paper for wiping my tender parts. I've never
understood why anyone ever thought it appropriate for the job.
Oddly (I always thought) at my grandparents' house they had both types
available in their specially designed ceramic holders so I suppose at least
one of them found the tough stuff useful.

My Dad always preferred Izal and I always had to track it down for him! My
Mum had the "normal" stuff.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Post by Sally Thompson

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by BrritSki
I don't think I EVER needed TP at school. But then I never staued for
school dinners which may have had something to do with it - in several ways.

[]

Post by Sally Thompson

Post by Penny
Oddly (I always thought) at my grandparents' house they had both types
available in their specially designed ceramic holders so I suppose at least
one of them found the tough stuff useful.

My Dad always preferred Izal and I always had to track it down for him! My
Mum had the "normal" stuff.

It always amused my mum that, where on the civilian version it used to
(maybe still does) say "Izal medicated" on each sheet in green, it used
to say "government property" on the rolls in such buildings.

(I've recently taken to the "shea butter" variety - though not Andrex.)

[Penny]

On Mon, 3 Apr 2017 07:59:09 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
It always amused my mum that, where on the civilian version it used to
(maybe still does) say "Izal medicated" on each sheet in green, it used
to say "government property" on the rolls in such buildings.

It amused me too when I spent a couple of weeks working on a Ministry of
Works funded archaeological dig in a gravel pit one summer. That's what was
provided in the little wooden huts that housed the Elsans - no portaloos in
those days. Finding it useless for it's intended purpose I did write a
letter to a friend on it.

[Nick Odell]

Post by Penny
On Mon, 3 Apr 2017 07:59:09 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
It always amused my mum that, where on the civilian version it used to
(maybe still does) say "Izal medicated" on each sheet in green, it used
to say "government property" on the rolls in such buildings.

It amused me too when I spent a couple of weeks working on a Ministry of
Works funded archaeological dig in a gravel pit one summer. That's what was
provided in the little wooden huts that housed the Elsans - no portaloos in
those days. Finding it useless for it's intended purpose I did write a
letter to a friend on it.

When I was younger, I used to use it, with a comb, as a makeshift
kazoo. And when I was very much younger still, with a nice, soft B
pencil, as tracing paper.

Nick

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Post by Penny
On Mon, 3 Apr 2017 07:59:09 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
It always amused my mum that, where on the civilian version it used to
(maybe still does) say "Izal medicated" on each sheet in green, it used
to say "government property" on the rolls in such buildings.

It amused me too when I spent a couple of weeks working on a Ministry of
Works funded archaeological dig in a gravel pit one summer. That's what was
provided in the little wooden huts that housed the Elsans - no portaloos in
those days. Finding it useless for it's intended purpose I did write a
letter to a friend on it.

How did you get it past the guards?

[Penny]

On Mon, 3 Apr 2017 19:50:52 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)

Post by Penny
On Mon, 3 Apr 2017 07:59:09 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
It always amused my mum that, where on the civilian version it used to
(maybe still does) say "Izal medicated" on each sheet in green, it used
to say "government property" on the rolls in such buildings.

It amused me too when I spent a couple of weeks working on a Ministry of
Works funded archaeological dig in a gravel pit one summer. That's what was
provided in the little wooden huts that housed the Elsans - no portaloos in
those days. Finding it useless for it's intended purpose I did write a
letter to a friend on it.

How did you get it past the guards?

Oh they let us out regularly, we could get hot baths at the Bata shoe
factory down the road and free bottles of Dreen for hair washing :)

[Btms]

Penny <***@labyrinth.freeuk.com> wrote:

[]
?

Post by Penny
Oh they let us out regularly, we could get hot baths at the Bata shoe
factory down the road and free bottles of Dreen for hair washing :)

Does this mean Bata provided baths for their workers? If so, I assume this
was a company benefit created in the days when working folk had no such
luxuries.

[Penny]

On Tue, 4 Apr 2017 07:43:01 -0000 (UTC), Btms <***@thetames.me.uk>
scrawled in the dust...

Post by Btms
[]
?

Post by Penny
Oh they let us out regularly, we could get hot baths at the Bata shoe
factory down the road and free bottles of Dreen for hair washing :)

Does this mean Bata provided baths for their workers? If so, I assume this
was a company benefit created in the days when working folk had no such
luxuries.

I think the baths were in an accommodation block for the workers but this
was 50 years ago and I'm not sure I fully understood the details even then.

[Btms]

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by Btms
[]
?

Post by Penny
Oh they let us out regularly, we could get hot baths at the Bata shoe
factory down the road and free bottles of Dreen for hair washing :)

Does this mean Bata provided baths for their workers? If so, I assume this
was a company benefit created in the days when working folk had no such
luxuries.

I think the baths were in an accommodation block for the workers but this
was 50 years ago and I'm not sure I fully understood the details even then.

Interesting. I am assuming this is Bata that made shoes. Sounds as if they
may have employed foreign workers even back the.

I am expecting Brexit to permit foreign workers as they did previously.
What it won't permit is a right of entry and residence unless one has a
job.

[Penny]

On Tue, 4 Apr 2017 10:06:02 -0000 (UTC), Btms <***@thetames.me.uk>
scrawled in the dust...

Post by Btms

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by Btms
Does this mean Bata provided baths for their workers? If so, I assume this
was a company benefit created in the days when working folk had no such
luxuries.

I think the baths were in an accommodation block for the workers but this
was 50 years ago and I'm not sure I fully understood the details even then.

Interesting. I am assuming this is Bata that made shoes. Sounds as if they
may have employed foreign workers even back the.
I am expecting Brexit to permit foreign workers as they did previously.
What it won't permit is a right of entry and residence unless one has a
job.

"Bata Shoes was founded in 1894 by TomᚠBata in Zlín (then
Austro-Hungarian Empire, today the Czech Republic). After the plea of a
Tilbury clergyman to alleviate unemployment during the Great Depression and
in part to overcome customs tariffs on foreign products, construction began
in 1932 on the Bata shoe factory in East Tilbury. For the remaining years
of the 20th century, the factory was an economic force in the Tilbury area
and provided a unique model of a Company town in Britain complete with
worker housing, schools and entertainment."

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bata_shoe_factory_(East_Tilbury)>

Elsewhere in that article there is mention of houses for the workers. The
place we had our baths was definitely a multi-storey building so may well
have been part of the factory itself. In fact, looking at it
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3487136 I'm convinced it was.

[Btms]

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by Btms

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by Btms
Does this mean Bata provided baths for their workers? If so, I assume this
was a company benefit created in the days when working folk had no such
luxuries.

I think the baths were in an accommodation block for the workers but this
was 50 years ago and I'm not sure I fully understood the details even then.

Interesting. I am assuming this is Bata that made shoes. Sounds as if they
may have employed foreign workers even back the.
I am expecting Brexit to permit foreign workers as they did previously.
What it won't permit is a right of entry and residence unless one has a
job.

"Bata Shoes was founded in 1894 by TomᚠBata in Zlín (then
Austro-Hungarian Empire, today the Czech Republic). After the plea of a
Tilbury clergyman to alleviate unemployment during the Great Depression and
in part to overcome customs tariffs on foreign products, construction began
in 1932 on the Bata shoe factory in East Tilbury. For the remaining years
of the 20th century, the factory was an economic force in the Tilbury area
and provided a unique model of a Company town in Britain complete with
worker housing, schools and entertainment."
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bata_shoe_factory_(East_Tilbury)>
Elsewhere in that article there is mention of houses for the workers. The
place we had our baths was definitely a multi-storey building so may well
have been part of the factory itself. In fact, looking at it
http://www.geograph.org.uk/photo/3487136 I'm convinced it was.

How wonderful. Port Sunlight may have been inspired by it. Very
interesting.

[Rosemary Miskin]

the factory was an economic force in the Tilbury area 
and provided a unique model of a Company town in Britain complete with 
worker housing, schools and entertainment." 

What about Bournville?

Rosemary

[Peter Percival]

Post by Rosemary Miskin

Post by Penny
the factory was an economic force in the Tilbury area
and provided a unique model of a Company town in Britain complete with
worker housing, schools and entertainment."

What about Bournville?

"unique" is one of those words that has lost its meaning. There are
numerous words that are now used to mean "good" usually in some utterly
vague sense. "Ultimate", "modern", "fresh", "independent" are a few
examples. None of them mean "good".

I was buying something from a Sainsbury's (widdershins) deli counter
yesterday and I noticed some of the cheeses were label "regionally
sourced" which means "comes from somewhere". I don't doubt that they
do, but the intended meaning is "good" in some sense.

[Sid Nuncius]

Post by Peter Percival
I was buying something from a Sainsbury's (widdershins) deli counter
yesterday and I noticed some of the cheeses were label "regionally
sourced" which means "comes from somewhere". I don't doubt that they
do, but the intended meaning is "good" in some sense.

A café in Shepherds Bush claims to serve "locally sourced coffee".
Presumably in the sense that much of the food I buy is locally sourced,
because Sainsbury's[1] isn't very far away.

[Btms]

Post by Sid Nuncius

Post by Peter Percival
I was buying something from a Sainsbury's (widdershins) deli counter
yesterday and I noticed some of the cheeses were label "regionally
sourced" which means "comes from somewhere". I don't doubt that they
do, but the intended meaning is "good" in some sense.

A café in Shepherds Bush claims to serve "locally sourced coffee".
Presumably in the sense that much of the food I buy is locally sourced,
because Sainsbury's[1] isn't very far away.

Lol. Regionally sourced is understood by me to mean, not a blend from lots
of different regins. Got me wondering now. 😳😤😥

[Chris McMillan]

Post by Sid Nuncius

Post by Peter Percival
I was buying something from a Sainsbury's (widdershins) deli counter
yesterday and I noticed some of the cheeses were label "regionally
sourced" which means "comes from somewhere". I don't doubt that they
do, but the intended meaning is "good" in some sense.

A café in Shepherds Bush claims to serve "locally sourced coffee".
Presumably in the sense that much of the food I buy is locally sourced,
because Sainsbury's[1] isn't very far away.

Rotflmao!!

I doubt anyone's got a polytunnel and solar panels on the top of the
building that Jo's flat is in yet!!

Sincerely Chris

[Penny]

On Tue, 4 Apr 2017 16:08:25 -0000 (UTC), Btms <***@thetames.me.uk>
scrawled in the dust...

Post by Btms

"Bata Shoes was founded in 1894 by Tomá? Bata in Zlín (then
Austro-Hungarian Empire, today the Czech Republic). After the plea of a
Tilbury clergyman to alleviate unemployment during the Great Depression and
in part to overcome customs tariffs on foreign products, construction began
in 1932 on the Bata shoe factory in East Tilbury.

How wonderful. Port Sunlight may have been inspired by it. Very
interesting.

Erme, Port Sunlight predates it by 44 years and is *much* prettier. Then
there's New Lanark, founded in 1786 but I think Robert Owen brought in the
workers' utopia idea before failing to set up an American version (I really
should visit the Robert Owen Museum - I lived here 9 years now and haven't
managed it yet).

Bournville model village came along soon after Port Sunlight and is also
*much* prettier than East Tilbury.

[Btms]

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by Btms

"Bata Shoes was founded in 1894 by Tomá? Bata in Zlín (then
Austro-Hungarian Empire, today the Czech Republic). After the plea of a
Tilbury clergyman to alleviate unemployment during the Great Depression and
in part to overcome customs tariffs on foreign products, construction began
in 1932 on the Bata shoe factory in East Tilbury.

How wonderful. Port Sunlight may have been inspired by it. Very
interesting.

Erme, Port Sunlight predates it by 44 years and is *much* prettier. Then
there's New Lanark, founded in 1786 but I think Robert Owen brought in the
workers' utopia idea before failing to set up an American version (I really
should visit the Robert Owen Museum - I lived here 9 years now and haven't
managed it yet).
Bournville model village came along soon after Port Sunlight and is also
*much* prettier than East Tilbury.

Yes I thought that when I realised how recent Tilbury was. I sense there
is something like this around now with the idea of garden villages. Not
sure if Welwyn Garden City delivered what it promised.

[Penny]

On Tue, 4 Apr 2017 21:38:50 -0000 (UTC), Btms <***@thetames.me.uk>
scrawled in the dust...

Post by Btms
I sense there
is something like this around now with the idea of garden villages. Not
sure if Welwyn Garden City delivered what it promised.

I'm pretty sure Harlow didn't and it swallowed a lot of real villages in
the attempt. It also had a peculiar demographic. Lots of work and housing
to attract young families. It started in 1948 and was still expanding in
the late '60s. Then a few years later became the first place to start
closing secondary schools because of falling numbers of children. When
you've built a very big town based around communities with lots of green
space between them and you close a school in one community you have to bus
kids from there to a different community.

[Chris J Dixon]

Post by Btms
Yes I thought that when I realised how recent Tilbury was. I sense there
is something like this around now with the idea of garden villages. Not
sure if Welwyn Garden City delivered what it promised.

I had a quick look at the one nearest to me, and was quite
surprised to see the details. It seems to me that there is a
certain amount of misrepresentation about these 'garden
villages'. This one appears to be appended to the edge of Derby,
alongside the A50.

<http://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/councillor-criticises-plans-for-new-garden-village-on-outskirts-of-derby/story-30025152-detail/story.html>

A councillor has criticised plans to create a new "garden
village", comprising 2,000 homes, on the outskirts of Derby.

It was revealed on Monday that the Government is supporting plans
to create the development – called Infinity Garden Village – on
fields opposite Wragley Way in Stenson Fields.

To be eligible for the Garden Village programme, a proposed
development must be a new separate settlement, as opposed to an
extension of a town. Proposed schemes also have to meet other
criteria, including having good design, while making best use of
brownfield or public sector land is encouraged.

It is on this basis that Rob Davison, a Labour county councillor
who lives in Stenson Fields, has spoken out against the
Government's backing.

Mr Davison said: "We know that the South Derbyshire Local Plan
recently agreed by the district council Tories, but opposed by
Labour, has cast the die for 2,000 houses at this location. But
this 'garden village' badging falls at the first hurdle.

"Two key points: the Government says garden villages must be
completely new settlements rather than the extension of an
existing one. Yet what we are talking about is a long linear
development that is about five sides longer than its width.

"The southern edge will be bounded by the A50. The northern edge
will be Wragley Way. All the new houses built along Wragley Way
will face the existing houses on the northern side. It's
preposterous to say it will be a new settlement."

Chris

[Chris McMillan]

Post by Chris J Dixon

Post by Btms
Yes I thought that when I realised how recent Tilbury was. I sense there
is something like this around now with the idea of garden villages. Not
sure if Welwyn Garden City delivered what it promised.

I had a quick look at the one nearest to me, and was quite
surprised to see the details. It seems to me that there is a
certain amount of misrepresentation about these 'garden
villages'. This one appears to be appended to the edge of Derby,
alongside the A50.
<http://www.derbytelegraph.co.uk/councillor-criticises-plans-for-new-garden-village-on-outskirts-of-derby/story-30025152-detail/story.html>
A councillor has criticised plans to create a new "garden
village", comprising 2,000 homes, on the outskirts of Derby.
It was revealed on Monday that the Government is supporting plans
to create the development – called Infinity Garden Village – on
fields opposite Wragley Way in Stenson Fields.
To be eligible for the Garden Village programme, a proposed
development must be a new separate settlement, as opposed to an
extension of a town. Proposed schemes also have to meet other
criteria, including having good design, while making best use of
brownfield or public sector land is encouraged.
It is on this basis that Rob Davison, a Labour county councillor
who lives in Stenson Fields, has spoken out against the
Government's backing.
Mr Davison said: "We know that the South Derbyshire Local Plan
recently agreed by the district council Tories, but opposed by
Labour, has cast the die for 2,000 houses at this location. But
this 'garden village' badging falls at the first hurdle.
"Two key points: the Government says garden villages must be
completely new settlements rather than the extension of an
existing one. Yet what we are talking about is a long linear
development that is about five sides longer than its width.
"The southern edge will be bounded by the A50. The northern edge
will be Wragley Way. All the new houses built along Wragley Way
will face the existing houses on the northern side. It's
preposterous to say it will be a new settlement."
Chris

In the not too distant past we watched a programme about the history of
the Garden towns and their likely future. Very interesting it was too.

Sincerely Chris

[Nick Odell]

Post by Btms
I am expecting Brexit to permit foreign workers as they did previously.
What it won't permit is a right of entry and residence unless one has a
job.

Good luck getting that through[1] Given that Pr-Brexit MPs appear to
have rejected the conclusions of the government's own Brexit committee
https://www.ft.com/content/53728cea-13c6-11e7-80f4-13e067d5072c [2]
getting anything through seems doubtful.

Nick
[1]Though I suspect you might need to get elected as an MP and rise
through the ranks first.
[2]Paywall. But it worked for me by going direct to the url in a
private browser tab

[Btms]

Post by Nick Odell

Post by Btms
I am expecting Brexit to permit foreign workers as they did previously.
What it won't permit is a right of entry and residence unless one has a
job.

Good luck getting that through[1] Given that Pr-Brexit MPs appear to
have rejected the conclusions of the government's own Brexit committee
https://www.ft.com/content/53728cea-13c6-11e7-80f4-13e067d5072c [2]
getting anything through seems doubtful.
Nick
[1]Though I suspect you might need to get elected as an MP and rise
through the ranks first.
[2]Paywall. But it worked for me by going direct to the url in a
private browser tab

If market forces require it, HMG will do it.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Penny
Oh they let us out regularly, we could get hot baths at the Bata shoe
factory down the road and free bottles of Dreen for hair washing :)

I was convinced that Dreen was only found in those little sealed plastic
sachets.

[Penny]

On Tue, 4 Apr 2017 23:07:13 +0100, Sam Plusnet <***@home.com> scrawled in
the dust...

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Penny
Oh they let us out regularly, we could get hot baths at the Bata shoe
factory down the road and free bottles of Dreen for hair washing :)

I was convinced that Dreen was only found in those little sealed plastic
sachets.

I'd never seen a bottle of it in a shop.

[Marjorie]

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)

Post by Sally Thompson

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by BrritSki
I don't think I EVER needed TP at school. But then I never staued for
school dinners which may have had something to do with it - in several ways.

[]

Post by Sally Thompson

Post by Penny
Oddly (I always thought) at my grandparents' house they had both types
available in their specially designed ceramic holders so I suppose at least
one of them found the tough stuff useful.

My Dad always preferred Izal and I always had to track it down for him! My
Mum had the "normal" stuff.

It always amused my mum that, where on the civilian version it used to
(maybe still does) say "Izal medicated" on each sheet in green, it used
to say "government property" on the rolls in such buildings.
(I've recently taken to the "shea butter" variety - though not Andrex.)

There is something deeply disturbing about the butter/toilet paper
association.

[Peter Percival]

Post by Marjorie

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)

Post by Sally Thompson

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by BrritSki
I don't think I EVER needed TP at school. But then I never staued for
school dinners which may have had something to do with it - in several ways.

[]

Post by Sally Thompson

Post by Penny
Oddly (I always thought) at my grandparents' house they had both types
available in their specially designed ceramic holders so I suppose at least
one of them found the tough stuff useful.

My Dad always preferred Izal and I always had to track it down for him! My
Mum had the "normal" stuff.

It always amused my mum that, where on the civilian version it used to
(maybe still does) say "Izal medicated" on each sheet in green, it used
to say "government property" on the rolls in such buildings.
(I've recently taken to the "shea butter" variety - though not Andrex.)

There is something deeply disturbing about the butter/toilet paper
association.

YAMaria SchneiderAICM5P

[Jane Vernon]

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by BrritSki
I don't think I EVER needed TP at school. But then I never staued for
school dinners which may have had something to do with it - in several ways.

That and the fact you were a boy. I still shudder at the thought of using
that horrible tracing paper for wiping my tender parts. I've never
understood why anyone ever thought it appropriate for the job.
Oddly (I always thought) at my grandparents' house they had both types
available in their specially designed ceramic holders so I suppose at least
one of them found the tough stuff useful.

ISTR a family WC somewhere that had both sorts too.

[Steve Hague]

Post by Jane Vernon

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by BrritSki
I don't think I EVER needed TP at school. But then I never staued for
school dinners which may have had something to do with it - in several ways.

That and the fact you were a boy. I still shudder at the thought of using
that horrible tracing paper for wiping my tender parts. I've never
understood why anyone ever thought it appropriate for the job.
Oddly (I always thought) at my grandparents' house they had both types
available in their specially designed ceramic holders so I suppose at least
one of them found the tough stuff useful.

ISTR a family WC somewhere that had both sorts too.

Wofe's parents had both in the early '70s. Fil preferred the Izal for
some reason.
Steve

[Btms]

Post by Steve Hague

Post by Jane Vernon

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by BrritSki
I don't think I EVER needed TP at school. But then I never staued for
school dinners which may have had something to do with it - in several ways.

That and the fact you were a boy. I still shudder at the thought of using
that horrible tracing paper for wiping my tender parts. I've never
understood why anyone ever thought it appropriate for the job.
Oddly (I always thought) at my grandparents' house they had both types
available in their specially designed ceramic holders so I suppose at least
one of them found the tough stuff useful.

ISTR a family WC somewhere that had both sorts too.

Wofe's parents had both in the early '70s. Fil preferred the Izal for
some reason.
Steve

I think the early soft stuff wasn't so moisture proof. Maybe folk
preferred the izal or used it combined where they kept both

[Mike]

Post by Btms

Post by Steve Hague

Post by Jane Vernon

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by BrritSki
I don't think I EVER needed TP at school. But then I never staued for
school dinners which may have had something to do with it - in several ways.

That and the fact you were a boy. I still shudder at the thought of using
that horrible tracing paper for wiping my tender parts. I've never
understood why anyone ever thought it appropriate for the job.
Oddly (I always thought) at my grandparents' house they had both types
available in their specially designed ceramic holders so I suppose at least
one of them found the tough stuff useful.

ISTR a family WC somewhere that had both sorts too.

Wofe's parents had both in the early '70s. Fil preferred the Izal for
some reason.
Steve

I think the early soft stuff wasn't so moisture proof. Maybe folk
preferred the izal or used it combined where they kept both

I really think Roof's dad should be resurrected to provide us with the
nitty gritty so we can get down to the basics and wipe the whole matter
clean.

[Vicky]

Post by Mike

Post by Btms

Post by Steve Hague

Post by Jane Vernon

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by BrritSki
I don't think I EVER needed TP at school. But then I never staued for
school dinners which may have had something to do with it - in several ways.

That and the fact you were a boy. I still shudder at the thought of using
that horrible tracing paper for wiping my tender parts. I've never
understood why anyone ever thought it appropriate for the job.
Oddly (I always thought) at my grandparents' house they had both types
available in their specially designed ceramic holders so I suppose at least
one of them found the tough stuff useful.

ISTR a family WC somewhere that had both sorts too.

Wofe's parents had both in the early '70s. Fil preferred the Izal for
some reason.
Steve

I think the early soft stuff wasn't so moisture proof. Maybe folk
preferred the izal or used it combined where they kept both

I really think Roof's dad should be resurrected to provide us with the
nitty gritty so we can get down to the basics and wipe the whole matter
clean.

You always want to get to the bottom. Nothing is too dirty for you!

[Penny]

On Tue, 04 Apr 2017 08:32:42 GMT, Mike <***@ntlworld.com> scrawled
in the dust...

Post by Mike
I really think Roof's dad should be resurrected to provide us with the
nitty gritty so we can get down to the basics and wipe the whole matter
clean.

If it's gritty I'm not wiping anything with it!

[Peter Percival]

Post by Btms

Post by Steve Hague

Post by Jane Vernon

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by BrritSki
I don't think I EVER needed TP at school. But then I never staued for
school dinners which may have had something to do with it - in several ways.

That and the fact you were a boy. I still shudder at the thought of using
that horrible tracing paper for wiping my tender parts. I've never
understood why anyone ever thought it appropriate for the job.
Oddly (I always thought) at my grandparents' house they had both types
available in their specially designed ceramic holders so I suppose at least
one of them found the tough stuff useful.

ISTR a family WC somewhere that had both sorts too.

Wofe's parents had both in the early '70s. Fil preferred the Izal for
some reason.
Steve

I think the early soft stuff wasn't so moisture proof. Maybe folk
preferred the izal or used it combined where they kept both

Toilet paper is deliberately made to disintegrate in water, so it
certainly shouldn't be moisture proof.

[Btms]

Post by Peter Percival

Post by Btms

Post by Steve Hague

Post by Jane Vernon

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by BrritSki
I don't think I EVER needed TP at school. But then I never staued for
school dinners which may have had something to do with it - in several ways.

That and the fact you were a boy. I still shudder at the thought of using
that horrible tracing paper for wiping my tender parts. I've never
understood why anyone ever thought it appropriate for the job.
Oddly (I always thought) at my grandparents' house they had both types
available in their specially designed ceramic holders so I suppose at least
one of them found the tough stuff useful.

ISTR a family WC somewhere that had both sorts too.

Wofe's parents had both in the early '70s. Fil preferred the Izal for
some reason.
Steve

I think the early soft stuff wasn't so moisture proof. Maybe folk
preferred the izal or used it combined where they kept both

Toilet paper is deliberately made to disintegrate in water, so it
certainly shouldn't be moisture proof.

Was this true of Izal? Perhaps the right word is absorbent? I think the
soft stuff id coated with china clay.

[Penny]

On Tue, 4 Apr 2017 10:25:27 -0000 (UTC), Btms <***@thetames.me.uk>
scrawled in the dust...

Post by Btms

Post by Peter Percival

Post by Btms
I think the early soft stuff wasn't so moisture proof. Maybe folk
preferred the izal or used it combined where they kept both

Toilet paper is deliberately made to disintegrate in water, so it
certainly shouldn't be moisture proof.

Was this true of Izal? Perhaps the right word is absorbent? I think the
soft stuff id coated with china clay.

China clay is used to produce a smooth glossy paper so that seems unlikely.
It would be like wiping with a page from Cosmopolitan (is that still going,
I don't buy mags) rather than a page from the Daily Fail (I don't buy
papers either).

[Btms]

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by Btms

Post by Peter Percival

Post by Btms
I think the early soft stuff wasn't so moisture proof. Maybe folk
preferred the izal or used it combined where they kept both

Toilet paper is deliberately made to disintegrate in water, so it
certainly shouldn't be moisture proof.

Was this true of Izal? Perhaps the right word is absorbent? I think the
soft stuff id coated with china clay.

China clay is used to produce a smooth glossy paper so that seems unlikely.
It would be like wiping with a page from Cosmopolitan (is that still going,
I don't buy mags) rather than a page from the Daily Fail (I don't buy
papers either).

Well maybe but when I worked for Wiggins Tepe Research they used chinal
clay to produce ncr paper and that didnt seem shiny.

[Penny]

On Tue, 4 Apr 2017 16:08:27 -0000 (UTC), Btms <***@thetames.me.uk>
scrawled in the dust...

Post by Btms

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by Btms

Post by Peter Percival

Post by Btms
I think the early soft stuff wasn't so moisture proof. Maybe folk
preferred the izal or used it combined where they kept both

Toilet paper is deliberately made to disintegrate in water, so it
certainly shouldn't be moisture proof.

Was this true of Izal? Perhaps the right word is absorbent? I think the
soft stuff id coated with china clay.

China clay is used to produce a smooth glossy paper so that seems unlikely.
It would be like wiping with a page from Cosmopolitan (is that still going,
I don't buy mags) rather than a page from the Daily Fail (I don't buy
papers either).

Well maybe but when I worked for Wiggins Tepe Research they used chinal
clay to produce ncr paper and that didnt seem shiny.

There are (at least) 3 types of NCR - top, middle and bottom. I don't think
even bottom would do a good job for wiping...

I dare say it is super-callandering which produces the high gloss on art
papers but the china clay coating plays a major part.
In fact some cheap mags use super-callandered newsprint.

[Btms]

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by Btms

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by Btms

Post by Peter Percival

Post by Btms
I think the early soft stuff wasn't so moisture proof. Maybe folk
preferred the izal or used it combined where they kept both

Toilet paper is deliberately made to disintegrate in water, so it
certainly shouldn't be moisture proof.

Was this true of Izal? Perhaps the right word is absorbent? I think the
soft stuff id coated with china clay.

China clay is used to produce a smooth glossy paper so that seems unlikely.
It would be like wiping with a page from Cosmopolitan (is that still going,
I don't buy mags) rather than a page from the Daily Fail (I don't buy
papers either).

Well maybe but when I worked for Wiggins Tepe Research they used chinal
clay to produce ncr paper and that didnt seem shiny.

There are (at least) 3 types of NCR - top, middle and bottom. I don't think
even bottom would do a good job for wiping...
I dare say it is super-callandering which produces the high gloss on art
papers but the china clay coating plays a major part.
In fact some cheap mags use super-callandered newsprint.

Not the paper but the fact it uses china clay for a non glossy paper
product. It was back then I learned tbag paper could leave an orange
flavour in the tea (me neither) and the bags are filled with they described
as tea dust, not leaves. This last bit has influenced my choice of tea
making ingredients ever since. However, we do sometimes get a lovely cup
from a teapot containing bags. I find myself not a little disappointed
when this happens.

[Chris J Dixon]

Post by Btms
It was back then I learned tbag paper could leave an orange
flavour in the tea (me neither) and the bags are filled with they described
as tea dust, not leaves.

An Asian engineer I one worked with had a brother in the tea
industry. Apparently when tea bags first appeared he was highly
delighted since he could now earn good money from what he
previously had to dispose of when cleaning his air filters.

Chris

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Chris J Dixon

Post by Btms
It was back then I learned tbag paper could leave an orange
flavour in the tea (me neither) and the bags are filled with they described
as tea dust, not leaves.

An Asian engineer I one worked with had a brother in the tea
industry. Apparently when tea bags first appeared he was highly
delighted since he could now earn good money from what he
previously had to dispose of when cleaning his air filters.

I suppose the dust would be equal in quality with the rest of the tea,
it's just that its physical form didn't suit 'traditional' tea-making
methods.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message
<1748303881.513017111.798489.poppy-***@news.eternal-september.
org>, Btms <***@thetames.me.uk> writes:
[]

Post by Btms
product. It was back then I learned tbag paper could leave an orange
flavour in the tea (me neither) and the bags are filled with they described
as tea dust, not leaves. This last bit has influenced my choice of tea
making ingredients ever since. However, we do sometimes get a lovely cup
from a teapot containing bags. I find myself not a little disappointed
when this happens.

(-:

I believe what in the tea industry is referred to as "dust" does not
mean what we lay-people might think it means; I think it might even mean
tea of a particularly high quality. But that didn't stop the bag
detractors from (mis)using the term.

[Peter Percival]

Post by Btms

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by Btms

Post by Peter Percival

Post by Btms
I think the early soft stuff wasn't so moisture proof. Maybe folk
preferred the izal or used it combined where they kept both

Toilet paper is deliberately made to disintegrate in water, so it
certainly shouldn't be moisture proof.

Was this true of Izal? Perhaps the right word is absorbent? I think the
soft stuff id coated with china clay.

China clay is used to produce a smooth glossy paper so that seems unlikely.
It would be like wiping with a page from Cosmopolitan (is that still going,
I don't buy mags) rather than a page from the Daily Fail (I don't buy
papers either).

Well maybe but when I worked for Wiggins Tepe Research they used chinal
clay to produce ncr paper and that didnt seem shiny.

NCR has been blamed for various heath problem. Do you know if there is
any truth in the matter? I think it's to do with PCBs or something...

[Btms]

Post by Peter Percival

Post by Btms

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by Btms

Post by Peter Percival

Post by Btms
I think the early soft stuff wasn't so moisture proof. Maybe folk
preferred the izal or used it combined where they kept both

Toilet paper is deliberately made to disintegrate in water, so it
certainly shouldn't be moisture proof.

Was this true of Izal? Perhaps the right word is absorbent? I think the
soft stuff id coated with china clay.

China clay is used to produce a smooth glossy paper so that seems unlikely.
It would be like wiping with a page from Cosmopolitan (is that still going,
I don't buy mags) rather than a page from the Daily Fail (I don't buy
papers either).

Well maybe but when I worked for Wiggins Tepe Research they used chinal
clay to produce ncr paper and that didnt seem shiny.

NCR has been blamed for various heath problem. Do you know if there is
any truth in the matter? I think it's to do with PCBs or something...

Really? Is it still used? I only worked for them for three months. I
picked up that the china clay element was some sort of secret ingredient.
I don't know what else it uses. I was not a scientist. It was an admin
job of low status.

[Penny]

On Tue, 4 Apr 2017 17:15:36 -0000 (UTC), Btms <***@thetames.me.uk>
scrawled in the dust...

Post by Btms

Post by Peter Percival

Post by Btms
Well maybe but when I worked for Wiggins Tepe Research they used chinal
clay to produce ncr paper and that didnt seem shiny.

NCR has been blamed for various heath problem. Do you know if there is
any truth in the matter? I think it's to do with PCBs or something...

Really? Is it still used?

I've been out of print for a lot of years now but ncr was the making of
husgod's business, basically because he was an electrical engineer, not a
printer and the 'real' small printers in the area were scared of it (and
didn't understand top/middle/bottom).

I think it is still used in small business but I suppose you need a dot
matrix or golfball printer to make it work in a computerised set-up. I've
seen sales reps using it in recent years.

I've never heard of health probs related to use of ncr. The first time I
came across it was when my father gave me a little ncr notebook he'd been
given by a rep at work (I think), some time in the '60s.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message <***@4ax.com>, Penny
<***@labyrinth.freeuk.com> writes:
[]

Post by Penny
I've been out of print for a lot of years now

I await the new edition with interest. (-:
[]

Post by Penny
I think it is still used in small business but I suppose you need a dot
matrix or golfball printer to make it work in a computerised set-up. I've
seen sales reps using it in recent years.

It remained popular, with, indeed, impact (alias dot matrix) printers,
in businesses such as garages: in fact it kept the - small - market for
such printers going for a while; they were actually very expensive at
one point! (I remember seeing a basic EPSON priced at about 300.)

Post by Penny
I've never heard of health probs related to use of ncr. The first time I
came across it was when my father gave me a little ncr notebook he'd been
given by a rep at work (I think), some time in the '60s.

Come to think of it, Kleeneeze still use it. I have a copy of an order
waiting by my door for the next delivery.

[krw]

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
It remained popular, with, indeed, impact (alias dot matrix) printers

When I left work we had a number of heavy duty impact printers which we
kept working. The outgoing repairs had an invoice printed including the
delivery address onto a peelable label. The label was peeled and placed
on the outside of the packing for the Royal Mail whilst the invoice was
placed inside with the goods and showed the invoicing and delivery
addresses.

As we had done for over 25 years on at least two (if not more) computer
systems.

[Chris J Dixon]

Post by Penny
The first time I
came across it was when my father gave me a little ncr notebook he'd been
given by a rep at work (I think), some time in the '60s.

I remember when I first started work there were a variety of
copying machines about, one of which produced printout in sepia
and somewhat damp.

The arrival of the first photocopier was a revelation. We had to
adapt to its quirks - solid blocks came out as outlines, and
the first time we tried to copy something sent to us using
carbonless copy paper, it came out as a blank form, since it
didn't see pale blue.

Chris

[Penny]

On Wed, 05 Apr 2017 08:02:01 +0100, Chris J Dixon <***@cdixon.me.uk>
scrawled in the dust...

Post by Chris J Dixon
I remember when I first started work there were a variety of
copying machines about, one of which produced printout in sepia
and somewhat damp.

On my first work experience from college I was told to copy something and
shown to a little machine which produced an apparently blank shiny pink
sheet which then had to be fed into another part of the device to get the
paper copy - tedious in the extreme. I have a photo somewhere of d#1, aged
about 6 months, sitting on (and apparently operating) the biggest Xerox
machine we ever had in the copy shop. It could double-side, collate and
bind up to 30 pages.

Post by Chris J Dixon
The arrival of the first photocopier was a revelation. We had to
adapt to its quirks - solid blocks came out as outlines,

Ah - usually a sign of slightly damp paper - but photocopiers don't really
like large areas of black.

[Chris J Dixon]

Post by Penny

Post by Chris J Dixon
The arrival of the first photocopier was a revelation. We had to
adapt to its quirks - solid blocks came out as outlines,

Ah - usually a sign of slightly damp paper - but photocopiers don't really
like large areas of black.

In my experience the early ones were working on contrast, so
blocks foxed them. Nowadays all is well.

It was interesting that around the same time there was a change
to the standard electrical circuit diagram symbols to remove any
difference in meaning between filled and open shapes.

Chris

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Post by Chris J Dixon

Post by Penny

Post by Chris J Dixon
The arrival of the first photocopier was a revelation. We had to
adapt to its quirks - solid blocks came out as outlines,

Ah - usually a sign of slightly damp paper - but photocopiers don't really
like large areas of black.

In my experience the early ones were working on contrast, so
blocks foxed them. Nowadays all is well.

I remember one which used paper (yes, I think it did come out pink) that
came on a roll; what I liked about that one was that you could set the
length you used, so if you only wanted a small item copied, you didn't
have to use a whole sheet of A4. (Or 10 by 8 or whatever - that was
probably before UK started using the A sizes.)

Post by Chris J Dixon
It was interesting that around the same time there was a change
to the standard electrical circuit diagram symbols to remove any
difference in meaning between filled and open shapes.
Chris

It was (is) also irritating to me that the symbols for logic were
changed to reflect the fact that, at that point, computers weren't too
good at anything other than lines at 90 degrees, so (a) the old symbols
for (N)AND, (N)OR, EXOR, and so on gates all became rectangles
(sometimes with a tiny symbol inside such as "&"), and more complex
functions became a rectangle with another rectangle on top for the
controls. I say is, because those symbols outlasted the restriction on
computers' drawing abilities, and in fact are still widespread
(certainly in several standards) now.

[Penny]

On Thu, 6 Apr 2017 21:52:35 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
I remember one which used paper (yes, I think it did come out pink) that
came on a roll; what I liked about that one was that you could set the
length you used, so if you only wanted a small item copied, you didn't
have to use a whole sheet of A4. (Or 10 by 8 or whatever - that was
probably before UK started using the A sizes.)

I think A sizes were in use here in the mid '60s but there was a lot of
overlap (and books still come in all manner of Imperial sizes). I was
taught using A sizes in the early '70s although it didn't become an ISO
standard until 1975.

10 x 8 is photographic paper size 8R.

[Nick Odell]

On Thu, 6 Apr 2017 21:52:35 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
It was (is) also irritating to me that the symbols for logic were
changed to reflect the fact that, at that point, computers weren't too
good at anything other than lines at 90 degrees, so (a) the old symbols
for (N)AND, (N)OR, EXOR, and so on gates all became rectangles
(sometimes with a tiny symbol inside such as "&"), and more complex
functions became a rectangle with another rectangle on top for the
controls. I say is, because those symbols outlasted the restriction on
computers' drawing abilities, and in fact are still widespread
(certainly in several standards) now.

Don't expect them to change back anytime soon. When computer keyboards
came along they removed any last technical reason why the letters
should be arranged QWERTY rather than ABCDEF and with the exception of
one or two notable (and notably bankrupt) examples, nothing much seems
to have changed.

Nick

[Penny]

On Fri, 07 Apr 2017 01:27:17 +0100, Nick Odell

Post by Nick Odell
When computer keyboards
came along they removed any last technical reason why the letters
should be arranged QWERTY rather than ABCDEF and with the exception of
one or two notable (and notably bankrupt) examples, nothing much seems
to have changed.

I think there is more to the layout of keyboards than the chance of
clashing mechanical components. AIUI the letter placement differs from
language to language and places the most frequently used letters
conveniently.

[Mike]

Post by Penny
On Fri, 07 Apr 2017 01:27:17 +0100, Nick Odell

Post by Nick Odell
When computer keyboards
came along they removed any last technical reason why the letters
should be arranged QWERTY rather than ABCDEF and with the exception of
one or two notable (and notably bankrupt) examples, nothing much seems
to have changed.

I think there is more to the layout of keyboards than the chance of
clashing mechanical components. AIUI the letter placement differs from
language to language and places the most frequently used letters
conveniently.

Over the years, I have done a little research from time to time (buzz -
Repetition Chairman!) on the subject and have always found conflicting
'theories' about as many opinions as articles on the subject; so, as John
Ebdon might have said, I have not come to any firm conclusions.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

[]

Post by Mike

Post by Penny
I think there is more to the layout of keyboards than the chance of
clashing mechanical components. AIUI the letter placement differs from
language to language and places the most frequently used letters
conveniently.

Yes - QWERTZ and AZERTY being common variants.

Post by Mike
Over the years, I have done a little research from time to time (buzz -
Repetition Chairman!) on the subject and have always found conflicting
'theories' about as many opinions as articles on the subject; so, as John
Ebdon might have said, I have not come to any firm conclusions.

(I like the idea of a Repetition Chairman.) For some years I've been
using page 6 of 25 as a bookmark, of a wikipedia article; unfortunately,
the URL has worn off. But looking for it now, I found
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Keyboard_layout which will tell you far
more than you could possibly wish to know.

(Ah, found my original -
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/QWERTY#International_variants - but it's
lost the map showing which countries used which variant.)

[Peter Percival]

Post by Penny
On Thu, 6 Apr 2017 21:52:35 +0100, "J. P. Gilliver (John)"

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
It was (is) also irritating to me that the symbols for logic were
changed to reflect the fact that, at that point, computers weren't too
good at anything other than lines at 90 degrees, so (a) the old symbols
for (N)AND, (N)OR, EXOR, and so on gates all became rectangles
(sometimes with a tiny symbol inside such as "&"), and more complex
functions became a rectangle with another rectangle on top for the
controls. I say is, because those symbols outlasted the restriction on
computers' drawing abilities, and in fact are still widespread
(certainly in several standards) now.

Don't expect them to change back anytime soon. When computer keyboards
came along they removed any last technical reason why the letters

Meanwhile the reason of learnability was there. As typists changed from
typewriters to keyboards and had to get used to such things as 0 and O
being different, there being no 1/2 key, and so on, why on earth should
they have been made to get used to an unnecessary change as that from
QWERTY to ABCDEF?

Post by Penny
should be arranged QWERTY rather than ABCDEF and with the exception of
one or two notable (and notably bankrupt) examples, nothing much seems
to have changed.
Nick

[Peter Percival]

Post by Btms

Post by Peter Percival

Post by Btms

Post by Steve Hague

Post by Jane Vernon

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by BrritSki
I don't think I EVER needed TP at school. But then I never staued for
school dinners which may have had something to do with it - in several ways.

That and the fact you were a boy. I still shudder at the thought of using
that horrible tracing paper for wiping my tender parts. I've never
understood why anyone ever thought it appropriate for the job.
Oddly (I always thought) at my grandparents' house they had both types
available in their specially designed ceramic holders so I suppose at least
one of them found the tough stuff useful.

ISTR a family WC somewhere that had both sorts too.

Wofe's parents had both in the early '70s. Fil preferred the Izal for
some reason.
Steve

I think the early soft stuff wasn't so moisture proof. Maybe folk
preferred the izal or used it combined where they kept both

Toilet paper is deliberately made to disintegrate in water, so it
certainly shouldn't be moisture proof.

Was this true of Izal?

I suspect that WIWAL (we, too, used Izal) the requirement that loo paper
disintegrate in water had not been thought up.

Post by Btms
Perhaps the right word is absorbent? I think the
soft stuff id coated with china clay.

[BrritSki]

Post by Chris McMillan

Post by Fenny

Post by Penny
Maybe it's more like a town council where, AIUI, the Mayor is expected to
pay for much of the stuff which goes with his position and can't be
justified expenditure from council funds.

Sounds rather like being a teacher, where actual school supplies are
no longer deemed justifiable expenditure!!!

And parents provide loo rolls instead of cash donations (actually I rather
like this)

Unused presumably ?

[Btms]

Post by Btms

Post by Btms
Up to a point yes they are. But the charity commission are rather

tight on

Post by Btms
what they consider adequate as reserves. Anyway the hunts are not
registered charities but in my view function as if it they are.

They do
Charity accounts have to identify the right level of reserves for a
charity. The CC only has a right of comment if they feel inadequate
amounts are expended on charitable aims.
A hunt is a business, it should have a business plan and appropriate
reserves and should not depend on the good nature of the Master(s).
My view is that if the subscription and cap payments are not meeting
ordinary running costs then management is defective!

Probably so but blood out of a stone comes into the equation. The more so
if it is a farmers' hunt with a long tradition of the Master being them
with the most land and a degree of largesse (sp) in the local history.

[Chris McMillan]

Post by Btms

Post by kosmo
Idiot woman. Her personal spending of 8k cannot be compared with the
vet practice investing 0.25m in its future.
The hunt is a business in its own right and the cost would be borne
by the members. Shula might lend the hunt the money short term until
a suitable fund raising opportunity rears its head. She should be
asking Oliver and Rafe now, not later. A telephone is a wonderful
invention, they have them in Italy I believe.
Again distressed by the way the story is being constructed by the
editor who clearly does not know how these things work. How long
should he be given do you think?
I am only a week behind now.

I think you will find it is Ralph. It does cost money to be a Hunt Master
but I agree this scenario is crazy.
The vet practice is a business where investment is designed to earn
financial reward. Hunting is a pastime entered into for pleasure. There
is no profit factor.
I will leave the argument as to weather killing foxes in this way or any
other is desirable or acceptable, to one side.

Ralph pronounced Rafe, it has precedent.

Sincerely Chris

[Btms]

Post by Chris McMillan

Post by Btms

Post by kosmo
Idiot woman. Her personal spending of 8k cannot be compared with the
vet practice investing 0.25m in its future.
The hunt is a business in its own right and the cost would be borne
by the members. Shula might lend the hunt the money short term until
a suitable fund raising opportunity rears its head. She should be
asking Oliver and Rafe now, not later. A telephone is a wonderful
invention, they have them in Italy I believe.
Again distressed by the way the story is being constructed by the
editor who clearly does not know how these things work. How long
should he be given do you think?
I am only a week behind now.

I think you will find it is Ralph. It does cost money to be a Hunt Master
but I agree this scenario is crazy.
The vet practice is a business where investment is designed to earn
financial reward. Hunting is a pastime entered into for pleasure. There
is no profit factor.
I will leave the argument as to weather killing foxes in this way or any
other is desirable or acceptable, to one side.

Ralph pronounced Rafe, it has precedent.
Sincerely Chris

Quite. It is one of our British quirks; like being an island and wanting
to control our boundaries, a little zealously.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

In message
[]

Post by Btms

Post by Chris McMillan
Ralph pronounced Rafe, it has precedent.

Yes, it's sometimes _pronounced_ that way; I don't think it's _spelt_
that way, though.

Post by Btms

Post by Chris McMillan
Sincerely Chris

Quite. It is one of our British quirks; like being an island and wanting
to control our boundaries, a little zealously.

We do have a land border. (The future nature of which is something
currently apparently of interest to the EU.)

[Jane Vernon]

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In message
[]

Post by Chris McMillan
Ralph pronounced Rafe, it has precedent.

Yes, it's sometimes _pronounced_ that way; I don't think it's _spelt_
that way, though.

It is sometimes spelt that way. I first met a Rafe in the late 70s.

[Peter Percival]

Post by Jane Vernon

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In message
[]

Post by Chris McMillan
Ralph pronounced Rafe, it has precedent.

Yes, it's sometimes _pronounced_ that way; I don't think it's _spelt_
that way, though.

It is sometimes spelt that way. I first met a Rafe in the late 70s.

And there's Timothy Spall's son.

[krw]

Post by Peter Percival

Post by Jane Vernon

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In message
[]

Post by Chris McMillan
Ralph pronounced Rafe, it has precedent.

Yes, it's sometimes _pronounced_ that way; I don't think it's _spelt_
that way, though.

It is sometimes spelt that way. I first met a Rafe in the late 70s.

And there's Timothy Spall's son.

As previously referenced.

[krw]

Post by Jane Vernon

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In message
[]

Post by Chris McMillan
Ralph pronounced Rafe, it has precedent.

Yes, it's sometimes _pronounced_ that way; I don't think it's _spelt_
that way, though.

It is sometimes spelt that way. I first met a Rafe in the late 70s.

And we have no reason to think the joint master is spelt other than
Rafe, whilst the former Mr Lilian was clearly Ralph in spelling and
pronounciation.

[Btms]

Post by krw

Post by Jane Vernon

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In message
[]

Post by Chris McMillan
Ralph pronounced Rafe, it has precedent.

Yes, it's sometimes _pronounced_ that way; I don't think it's _spelt_
that way, though.

It is sometimes spelt that way. I first met a Rafe in the late 70s.

And we have no reason to think the joint master is spelt other than
Rafe, whilst the former Mr Lilian was clearly Ralph in spelling and
pronounciation.

The reason is the British class system. 🤓

[krw]

Post by Btms

Post by krw

Post by Jane Vernon

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In message
[]

Post by Chris McMillan
Ralph pronounced Rafe, it has precedent.

Yes, it's sometimes _pronounced_ that way; I don't think it's _spelt_
that way, though.

It is sometimes spelt that way. I first met a Rafe in the late 70s.

And we have no reason to think the joint master is spelt other than
Rafe, whilst the former Mr Lilian was clearly Ralph in spelling and
pronounciation.

The reason is the British class system. 🤓

Personally I blame the parents.

[Btms]

Post by krw

Post by Btms

Post by krw

Post by Jane Vernon

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In message
[]

Post by Chris McMillan
Ralph pronounced Rafe, it has precedent.

Yes, it's sometimes _pronounced_ that way; I don't think it's _spelt_
that way, though.

It is sometimes spelt that way. I first met a Rafe in the late 70s.

And we have no reason to think the joint master is spelt other than
Rafe, whilst the former Mr Lilian was clearly Ralph in spelling and
pronounciation.

The reason is the British class system. 🤓

Personally I blame the parents.

Indeed. One would not expect the lower classes to know these thinga.

[Sam Plusnet]

Post by Btms

Post by krw

Post by Btms

Post by krw

Post by Jane Vernon

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In message
[]

Post by Chris McMillan
Ralph pronounced Rafe, it has precedent.

Yes, it's sometimes _pronounced_ that way; I don't think it's _spelt_
that way, though.

It is sometimes spelt that way. I first met a Rafe in the late 70s.

And we have no reason to think the joint master is spelt other than
Rafe, whilst the former Mr Lilian was clearly Ralph in spelling and
pronounciation.

The reason is the British class system. 🤓

Personally I blame the parents.

Indeed. One would not expect the lower classes to know these thinga.

No indeed.
But by the time they get to Year 11?

[Btms]

Post by Sam Plusnet

Post by Btms

Post by krw

Post by Btms

Post by krw

Post by Jane Vernon

Post by J. P. Gilliver (John)
In message
[]

Post by Chris McMillan
Ralph pronounced Rafe, it has precedent.

Yes, it's sometimes _pronounced_ that way; I don't think it's _spelt_
that way, though.

It is sometimes spelt that way. I first met a Rafe in the late 70s.

And we have no reason to think the joint master is spelt other than
Rafe, whilst the former Mr Lilian was clearly Ralph in spelling and
pronounciation.

The reason is the British class system. 🤓

Personally I blame the parents.

Indeed. One would not expect the lower classes to know these thinga.

No indeed.
But by the time they get to Year 11?

Shurely you mean the lower forms. 😉

[Chris J Dixon]

Post by Btms
Quite. It is one of our British quirks; like being an island and wanting
to control our boundaries, a little zealously.

It's all kicking off...

<https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/02/britain-and-eu-worse-off-without-brexit-deal-says-michael-fallon>

"Theresa May would be prepared to go to war to protect Gibraltar
as Margaret Thatcher once did for the Falklands, former
Conservative leader Michael Howard has suggested, in comments
that were immediately criticised as inflammatory. "

Meanwhile, it sounds like Trump could be busy in North Korea.

Chris

[Btms]

Post by Chris J Dixon

Post by Btms
Quite. It is one of our British quirks; like being an island and wanting
to control our boundaries, a little zealously.

It's all kicking off...
<https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/apr/02/britain-and-eu-worse-off-without-brexit-deal-says-michael-fallon>
"Theresa May would be prepared to go to war to protect Gibraltar
as Margaret Thatcher once did for the Falklands, former
Conservative leader Michael Howard has suggested, in comments
that were immediately criticised as inflammatory. "
Meanwhile, it sounds like Trump could be busy in North Korea.
Chris

And the value of the pound looks set to rise.

[Jane Vernon]

Post by Btms

Post by Chris McMillan

Post by Btms

Post by kosmo
Idiot woman. Her personal spending of 8k cannot be compared with the
vet practice investing 0.25m in its future.
The hunt is a business in its own right and the cost would be borne
by the members. Shula might lend the hunt the money short term until
a suitable fund raising opportunity rears its head. She should be
asking Oliver and Rafe now, not later. A telephone is a wonderful
invention, they have them in Italy I believe.
Again distressed by the way the story is being constructed by the
editor who clearly does not know how these things work. How long
should he be given do you think?
I am only a week behind now.

I think you will find it is Ralph. It does cost money to be a Hunt Master
but I agree this scenario is crazy.
The vet practice is a business where investment is designed to earn
financial reward. Hunting is a pastime entered into for pleasure. There
is no profit factor.
I will leave the argument as to weather killing foxes in this way or any
other is desirable or acceptable, to one side.

Ralph pronounced Rafe, it has precedent.
Sincerely Chris

Quite. It is one of our British quirks; like being an island and wanting
to control our boundaries, a little zealously.

My maternal grandmother had a brother Ralph, pronounced Ralf. She named
her son Ralph, pronounced Rafe. Generally agreed to be a quirky woman,
my grandmother.

[krw]

Generally agreed to be a quirky woman, my grandmother.

Great grand-daughter though.

[Jane Vernon]

Post by krw

Generally agreed to be a quirky woman, my grandmother.

Great grand-daughter though.

No, there are none of those, my cousins only had sons and ...
Oh, ISWYM, thank you <blush>

[Fenny]

Post by kosmo
I am only a week behind now.

I think I've heard a couple of eps in the last 2.5 weeks. It seems
it's not worth raising my blood pressure to catch up.

[Vicky]

On Sun, 02 Apr 2017 09:48:06 +0100, Fenny

Post by Fenny

Post by kosmo
I am only a week behind now.

I think I've heard a couple of eps in the last 2.5 weeks. It seems
it's not worth raising my blood pressure to catch up.

I'm up to date now and the thing annoying me most is the slimey
whisperings between Lilian and Justin. Perhaps the Ambridge tree
could get them on the way to the Dower House.

The final scene at Brookfield was quite fun. #shadenfreude.

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Post by Fenny

Post by kosmo
I am only a week behind now.

I think I've heard a couple of eps in the last 2.5 weeks. It seems
it's not worth raising my blood pressure to catch up.

Especially if you have a weak behind ...