Bitsy Bye autostart instructions?

[Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev']

I finally got around to playing with ProDOS 2.4.1. Very nice work John and Peter!

I have Bitsy Bye setup & working on a new "projects" disk but just wanted to make sure I understand the process correctly to have Bitsy Bye autostart:

1. Format blank ProDOS disk (also include the boot sector / loader )
2. Files need to be in this order in the catalog ...

QUIT.SYSTEM
PRODOS

Anything else?

i.e. The boot sector searches the volume for and loads PRODOS when in turn then searches for the first SYS file. It finds and loads QUIT.SYSTEM which in turn calls BYE which triggers the built-in Bitsy Bye in the new ProDOS 2.4.x. Correct?


I didn't see any mention of QUIT.SYSTEM in any of the readme's?

* ProDOS_2_4_readme.TXT
* ProDOS_2_4_1_readme.TXT

Maybe add a note for 2.4.2 ? :-)

I did a search in this group for "bitsy bye" but nothing relevant turned up.

TIA.

[Marco Verpelli]

Be sure BITSY.BOOT is the first SYS file on the disk or the first after PRODOS.

This work for me:

1- format
2- copy PRODOS
3- copy BITSY.BOOT
4- reboot and you shoud see the BITSY BYE menu

Marco

[Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev']

Post by Marco Verpelli
Be sure BITSY.BOOT is the first SYS file on the disk or the first after PRODOS.
1- format
2- copy PRODOS
3- copy BITSY.BOOT
4- reboot and you shoud see the BITSY BYE menu
Marco

Strange, I'm not getting the bitsy bye menu if I do this ...

1. Format ProDOS DSK with Copy 2 Plus
2. Copy PRODOS from ProDOS_2_4_1.dsk
3. Copy BITSY.BOOT from same disk
4. Copy BASIC.SYSTEM from same disk

... OK, I tracked down what I was causing the issue.

If you want to have BASIC.SYSTEM on the disk but STILL use have Bitsy Bye autostart FIRST then you need to have QUIT.SYSTEM before BASIC.SYSTEM.

Here is a Trouble-shooting Steps/Flowchart to autostart Bitsy Bye.

Q. Do you need BASIC.SYSTEM on the DISK?

Yes. Make sure QUIT.SYSTEM is before BASIC.SYSTEM.
No. Copy BITSY.BOOT onto the disk -- can be before or after PRODOS

If only there were some instructions or readme. *cough* :-)

[Steve Nickolas]

Post by Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev'

Post by Marco Verpelli
Be sure BITSY.BOOT is the first SYS file on the disk or the first after PRODOS.
1- format
2- copy PRODOS
3- copy BITSY.BOOT
4- reboot and you shoud see the BITSY BYE menu
Marco

Strange, I'm not getting the bitsy bye menu if I do this ...
1. Format ProDOS DSK with Copy 2 Plus
2. Copy PRODOS from ProDOS_2_4_1.dsk
3. Copy BITSY.BOOT from same disk
4. Copy BASIC.SYSTEM from same disk
... OK, I tracked down what I was causing the issue.
If you want to have BASIC.SYSTEM on the disk but STILL use have Bitsy Bye autostart FIRST then you need to have QUIT.SYSTEM before BASIC.SYSTEM.
Here is a Trouble-shooting Steps/Flowchart to autostart Bitsy Bye.
Q. Do you need BASIC.SYSTEM on the DISK?
Yes. Make sure QUIT.SYSTEM is before BASIC.SYSTEM.
No. Copy BITSY.BOOT onto the disk -- can be before or after PRODOS
If only there were some instructions or readme. *cough* :-)

To note:

Minibas' BASIC.SYSTEM serves both purposes, it can execute BASIC/BIN
programs, *and* it quits to the monitor automagically when started. Of
course, it's not a full-fledged BASIC.SYSTEM, but it works enough for
ProDOS 2.4.1.

-uso.

[Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev']

Thanks for the info. Steve.

I guess it wasn't clear to me which one of the three you need and what the use cases were.
i.e. What is the context of the problem they are trying to solve -- why do they exist?

[Steve Nickolas]

Post by Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev'
Thanks for the info. Steve.
I guess it wasn't clear to me which one of the three you need and what the use cases were.
i.e. What is the context of the problem they are trying to solve -- why do they exist?

The reason I created minibas was to supply a small launcher for BAS and
BIN programs on top of Bitsy Bye. And it does its job: it automatically
exits to the menu system, and the menu system chains it when it needs to
load a non-SYS program.

-uso.

[Marco Verpelli]

If you neeed BASIC.SYSTEM the solution "by the book" is:

1- PRODOS
2- BASIC.SYSTEM
3- STARTUP <-- this is BITSY.BYE in disguise

Marco

[James Davis]

What is so great about Bitsy Bye?

I like ProSel.

I hate it when Bitsy Bye usurps my return to ProSel!

[Antoine Vignau]

Michael,
prodos will always launch the first program with a suffix of .system and a file type of $ff!

[John Brooks]

Post by James Davis
What is so great about Bitsy Bye?
I like ProSel.
I hate it when Bitsy Bye usurps my return to ProSel!

Prosel should replace the stock quit code (Bitsy Bye, etc). What do you mean 'usurps return to ProSel'?

-JB

[James Davis]

Post by John Brooks

Post by James Davis
What is so great about Bitsy Bye?
I like ProSel.
I hate it when Bitsy Bye usurps my return to ProSel!

Prosel should replace the stock quit code (Bitsy Bye, etc). What do you mean 'usurps return to ProSel'?
-JB

Soryy John, My BAD! It doesn't really do that. I just expect to return to ProSel, but if Bitsy Bye (Boot) is the selector on the floppy booted from, ProDOS quits to it, and always surprises me.

[John Brooks]

Post by James Davis

Post by John Brooks

Post by James Davis
What is so great about Bitsy Bye?
I like ProSel.
I hate it when Bitsy Bye usurps my return to ProSel!

Prosel should replace the stock quit code (Bitsy Bye, etc). What do you mean 'usurps return to ProSel'?
-JB

Soryy John, My BAD! It doesn't really do that. I just expect to return to ProSel, but if Bitsy Bye (Boot) is the selector on the floppy booted from, ProDOS quits to it, and always surprises me.

I like prosel and use it a lot, but there are two pain points which I attempted to address with Bitsy Bye:

1) Setup is quirky and slow. Once I have my menu set up it's great, but I groan every time I have to add a new program during development or to play around with something temporarily. Bitsy Bye has no saved structure other than the file and directory order on disk. Cat doctor allows easy control of file order and pressing the first letter of files or dirs makes it a breeze to navigate both old and new files on a HD easy. Bitsy also supports thousands of files in a directory, which will kill most of the other launchers and file util programs.

2) Prosel won't allow key-selection of drives mapped to slots 1 & 2 since those keys are used to select drive number. Bitsy Bye uses keys 1-7 as slot keys with subsequent presses toggling the drive number at that slot.

-JB
@JBrooksBSI

[James Davis]

I like 80 columns. Is there any way to force 80 columns for all things, when displaying text on Apple II's and/or AppleWin?

[Antoine Vignau]

You are under ProDOS, there is a flag that tells you if you have a 80-col card, so it is pretty easy to use it and display things in 80-col unless the developers force the 40-col mode like they did with BB

[Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev']

Post by Antoine Vignau
You are under ProDOS, there is a flag that tells you if you have a 80-col card, so it is pretty easy to use it and display things in 80-col unless the developers force the 40-col mode like they did with BB

Maybe Quit.system could be modified to set 80-col mode, saved on disk with the filename QUIT80.SYSTEM, and BB be modified to respect the current 40/80 col mode ?

[g***@sasktel.net]

Post by James Davis
I like 80 columns. Is there any way to force 80 columns for all things, when displaying text on Apple II's and/or AppleWin?

If you like 80 columns, you might want to try my file selector program called SQUIRT.

http://mirrors.apple2.org.za/ftp.apple.asimov.net/unsorted/Squirt_FS.zip

It has a few extra features, such as viewing single and dbl-hi-res graphics and viewing text files.

Can launch Basic, binary and system files.

Uses paging and a one button key press for file selection instead of scrolling.

And has mousetext for a nice visual display.

[Harry Potter]

Uhh...where can I get a decent ProDOS8 2.x.x menu system to load system files and binaries? At one time I was using an empty system file to trick ProDOS to display a menu for me, but I want something better.

[Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev']

Post by g***@sasktel.net

Post by James Davis
I like 80 columns. Is there any way to force 80 columns for all things, when displaying text on Apple II's and/or AppleWin?

If you like 80 columns, you might want to try my file selector program called SQUIRT.

Looks neat!

I want the UI of SQUIRT with the Functionality of Bitsy.Bye :-)

[g***@sasktel.net]

Post by Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev'

Post by g***@sasktel.net

Post by James Davis
I like 80 columns. Is there any way to force 80 columns for all things, when displaying text on Apple II's and/or AppleWin?

If you like 80 columns, you might want to try my file selector program called SQUIRT.

Looks neat!
I want the UI of SQUIRT with the Functionality of Bitsy.Bye :-)

The source is included. Let us know when your creation (or modifications) is/are done. :)

To which functionality do you refer to?

It can be launched using the BYE command or returned to with the MLI Bye
It can launch Basic, Binary and system files
It can view all volumes online and not just TAB through them
One letter keypress rather than scrolling

Asquith, Hey? (Or as Canadians we say "Eh") There wasn't enough going on there to keep you in Saskatchewan?

[Oliver Schmidt]

Hi,

I want the UI of SQUIRT [...]

I usually stay clear of criticizing the work of others - but I'd like
to make an exception here...

The work on ProDOS 2.4 is so great that everytime I look at the BB UI
I think that it just doesn't live up to the quality of ProDOS 2.4.

Almost half of the screen is empty apart from the credits. That part
really looks like some splash screen that gets replaced at some point
by some viewer or directory tree or <...> but it doesn't.

I have no idea how severe the space limitations are so some ideas
might just not be possible, but nevertheless:

- It would be desirable to use 80 col if available for a multi col
file list.

- Given the P8 file name length restrictions even on 40 col a two col
file list should fit on the screen.

- If there are at least some bytes left to spend they could be used to
detect the availability of mouse text and draw solid lines instead of
those ugly '-' and '!' signs.

- If a two col list is no option for one reason or another the single
col list shouldn't be "attached" to the left side of the screen but
rather centered. I don't see this adding any code size. Maybe some
additional attributes (like the file time or alike) could be displayed
"to fill the screen".

And finally a wish regarding the functionality:

If a BIN file is launched directly from BB it would be desirable to
have it exit back to BB by patching the two page 3 DOS vectors to call
P8 QUIT. If the argument against this should be that there might be
BIN programs relying on the user to be able to read their output after
exit on the BASIC prompt I'd argue:

- That this is from my perspective very uncommon. There might be
another key beside RETURN to launch a BIN file and leave the DOS
vectors alone.

- That one might print "PRESS RETURN TO CONTINUE" and wait for a
keypress before calling P8 QUIT. I'd still prefer that a lot over
having to type BYE on the BASIC prompt.

- That one might introduce a naming convention like "only BIN files
ending with .BIN<ARY> have the DOS vectors [not] patched" or alike.

Just my two cents,
Oliver

[i***@gmail.com]

Post by Oliver Schmidt
I usually stay clear of criticizing the work of others - but I'd like
to make an exception here...
The work on ProDOS 2.4 is so great that everytime I look at the BB UI
I think that it just doesn't live up to the quality of ProDOS 2.4.
Almost half of the screen is empty apart from the credits. That part
really looks like some splash screen that gets replaced at some point
by some viewer or directory tree or <...> but it doesn't.

I concur. It's amazing engineering, but the aesthetic choices just don't work for me.

I've been using Bird's Better Bye (via BYE.SYSTEM) as my launcher of choice instead. But as my /HD/GAMES directory is getting longer (thanks to qkumba!) I really wanted a way to jump to directories e.g. starting with 'U' in a long list.

So I started hacking on BBB; I've managed to squeeze out enough space to add in seek-to-keypress, and at this point have more than 20 bytes free in the 768-byte window. (It looks like Bitsy Bye "cheats" and uses more than that.) My 6502 "code golf" skills are weak so I'm sure much more could be freed up and additional functionality added.

https://github.com/inexorabletash/bbb

Post by Oliver Schmidt
I have no idea how severe the space limitations are so some ideas

It looks like Bitsy Bye spills past the 768-byte window - at least, the strings appear past the $1300 mark, and the announcement post says "code and data size for Bitsy Bye is less than 1KB, with room to spare". The code is (obviously) extremely tight, and can assume e.g. 40 columns / direct writes to text pages. But if there's room to spare in ProDOS (not just under the 1k limit)...

At some point, it's probably better to just have a system file that patches the quit routine with a stub to invoke itself by path if available (for what's my common case: running off a virtual HD), and gives some reasonable fallback UI if the boot volume is not available. Less of a code challenge, though.

I'll have to take a look at SQUIRT.

[Oliver Schmidt]

Hi,

Post by g***@sasktel.net
http://mirrors.apple2.org.za/ftp.apple.asimov.net/unsorted/Squirt_FS.zip

I haven't tried / understood it in detail but as far as I can see it
doesn't disable the 80 column firmware before launching SYS files.
However at least from my perspective SYS files have the right to
presume the 80 column firmware to be off. I.e. the stock ProDOS 2.x 80
column selector disables the 80 column on "exit".

I.e. my special purpose launcher (an exec() function for C programs)
does it here:
https://github.com/cc65/cc65/blob/master/libsrc/apple2/exec.s#L162

Without having checked how QUIRT behaves two similar aspects:

SYS programs have the right to presume that their path name is stored
@ $280. The code in my launcher:
https://github.com/cc65/cc65/blob/master/libsrc/apple2/exec.s#L35

SYS programs have the right to presume the ProDOS system bitmap to
show $0800-$BF00 as free. Again the code in my launcher:
https://github.com/cc65/cc65/blob/master/libsrc/apple2/exec.s#L75

As far as I understand SQUIRT launches BIN files under certain
conditions without loading BASIC.SYSTEM. In this scenario the two DOS
vectors in page should be patched to QUIT back to the selector. My
launcher does it here:
https://github.com/cc65/cc65/blob/master/libsrc/apple2/exec.s#L103

Regards,
Oliver

[Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev']

Post by g***@sasktel.net
If you like 80 columns, you might want to try my file selector program called SQUIRT.
http://mirrors.apple2.org.za/ftp.apple.asimov.net/unsorted/Squirt_FS.zip

This has moved from incoming to disk_utils:
ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/disk_utils/Squirt_File_Selector.po

Post by g***@sasktel.net
It has a few extra features ...

OMG! You didn't mention this is a GOLD mine of FONTS !
AND it includes a viewer!

This is SWEET! So many fonts to play with and add to my HGR font tutorial now! :-)

[g***@sasktel.net]

Post by Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev'

Post by g***@sasktel.net
If you like 80 columns, you might want to try my file selector program called SQUIRT.
http://mirrors.apple2.org.za/ftp.apple.asimov.net/unsorted/Squirt_FS.zip

ftp://ftp.apple.asimov.net/pub/apple_II/images/disk_utils/Squirt_File_Selector.po

Post by g***@sasktel.net
It has a few extra features ...

OMG! You didn't mention this is a GOLD mine of FONTS !
AND it includes a viewer!
This is SWEET! So many fonts to play with and add to my HGR font tutorial now! :-)

Thanks for the explicative compliment! :)

It was my attempt at making a file selector as well as a viewer for hi-res graphics, dbl hi-res, text files, fonts and can even view my compressed mousetext screens.

Another feature, press the Open Apple key while files are being displayed.

[Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev']

Post by g***@sasktel.net
Thanks for the explicative compliment! :)

:-)

Post by g***@sasktel.net
It was my attempt at making a file selector as well as a viewer for hi-res graphics, dbl hi-res, text files, fonts and can even view my compressed mousetext screens.

Yup, you nailed it ! The ESC key to changing volumes is good, but I could see some wanting the numbers to directly change slots. Maybe Shift-#?

Love the sheer quantity of fonts.

Speaking of fonts -- do you know who they all "belong" to? There are a couple of fonts where the quality badly need "touching up" for a few minor glyphs.

Aside, did you mis-transfer NEWYORK.FNT? It is listed as a TXT type in the catalog?

Post by g***@sasktel.net
Another feature, press the Open Apple key while files are being displayed.

Yup, I was reading the status bar and discovered that last week -- love that it shows the Address!

Hmm, looks like there is a bug with VMWare + Windows 7 + AppleWin + Squirt. :-/ I find I have press (Alt) OpenApple+ a key before pressing just (Alt) OpenApple by itself will work. i.e. change to I-Fonts, pressing OpenApple doesn't work. Have to press Alt-A, then Alt works.

I just tried on my i7 dev box + Windows 7 + AppleWin + Squirt and the Alt key works properly.

Weird.

[g***@sasktel.net]

Cant say for sure where some of the fonts came from

But some from games, some from demos, the dos toolkit, made a couple myself

[cybernesto]

Post by g***@sasktel.net

Post by James Davis
I like 80 columns. Is there any way to force 80 columns for all things, when displaying text on Apple II's and/or AppleWin?

If you like 80 columns, you might want to try my file selector program called SQUIRT.
http://mirrors.apple2.org.za/ftp.apple.asimov.net/unsorted/Squirt_FS.zip
It has a few extra features, such as viewing single and dbl-hi-res graphics and viewing text files.
Can launch Basic, binary and system files.
Uses paging and a one button key press for file selection instead of scrolling.
And has mousetext for a nice visual display.

I tried SQUIRT to navigate on this image http://www.apple-2.com/vintage-dl/smartport.zip
But opening the GAMES directory makes it crash.

[John Brooks]

Post by Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev'
I finally got around to playing with ProDOS 2.4.1. Very nice work John and Peter!
1. Format blank ProDOS disk (also include the boot sector / loader )
2. Files need to be in this order in the catalog ...
QUIT.SYSTEM
PRODOS
Anything else?
i.e. The boot sector searches the volume for and loads PRODOS when in turn then searches for the first SYS file. It finds and loads QUIT.SYSTEM which in turn calls BYE which triggers the built-in Bitsy Bye in the new ProDOS 2.4.x. Correct?
I didn't see any mention of QUIT.SYSTEM in any of the readme's?
* ProDOS_2_4_readme.TXT
* ProDOS_2_4_1_readme.TXT
Maybe add a note for 2.4.2 ? :-)
I did a search in this group for "bitsy bye" but nothing relevant turned up.
TIA.

Ah yes, that's worthy of a note for the next release.

ProDOS 2.4.1 uses the same quit-initiation logic as earlier versions of ProDOS:

1) If no .SYSTEM file is found at boot in the root dir, the bye/quit code is called
2) If MLI call $65 (quit) is made, the bye/quit code is called

So if you want to boot right into Bitsy Bye at startup (the fastest boot speed), either have no .system file in the root directory, or have the first .system file in the root dir be quit.system.

The benefit of using quit.system is that it allows you to also have basic.system in the root dir, which Bitsy Bye will need if you want to use Bitsy to run BAS, BIN, or TXT(exec) files.

-JB
@JBrooksBSI

[Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev']

Post by John Brooks
So if you want to boot right into Bitsy Bye at startup (the fastest boot speed), either have no .system file in the root directory, or have the first .system file in the root dir be quit.system.

Thanks for the confirmation about quit.system.

Post by John Brooks
The benefit of using quit.system is that it allows you to also have basic.system in the root dir, which Bitsy Bye will need if you want to use Bitsy to run BAS, BIN, or TXT(exec) files.

Perfect! That's my use case.

[Oliver Schmidt]

Hi,

Post by Michael 'AppleWin Debugger Dev'

Post by John Brooks
The benefit of using quit.system is that it allows you to also have basic.system in the root dir, which Bitsy Bye will need if you want to use Bitsy to run BAS, BIN, or TXT(exec) files.

Perfect! That's my use case.

I proposed QUIT.SYSTEM to John (origin:
https://github.com/contiki-os/contiki/commit/821d24de4fb3188d2536aec72dd80d86769dbbcc).
So you finally use something (at least indirectly) from me which isn't
crap :-)

Oliver