Croydon

[Basil Jet]

Apparently the Centrale shopping centre (which only opened in 2004) is
to be merged with the Whitgift Centre. I think this will probably create
the largest shopping centre in the UK, since the combined area of the
current centres is only just short of the Metro Centre in Newcastle.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-41983441

This page suggests that East Croydon may gain a fourth pair of NR platforms.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croydon_Vision_2020#Train_Station

The page also talks about lengthening tram platforms at West Croydon,
although I couldn't quite find enough info to make sense of that. I
would have imagined that all the tram platforms are the same length, and
there would be no point in lengthening one unless you lengthen them all.

[s***@googlemail.com]

Bad news for Croydon. The Whitgift Centre has for years been blighted by Westfield's plans. Getting on for half of the shops are closed, with more every time I go there. There's nothing much wrong with the place which couldn't be fixed by some minor refurbishment, fixing some leaks in the roof, some of which have been there for years, for example, and a bit of paint.

We already have two Westfield centres in London, they mainly sell things like expensive designer clothes, which are not something which most people buy very often, if ever. They don't seem to attract shops selling everyday things. There's a not very good Sainsbury's in the Whitgift Centre, but rather than improving that it will almost certainly be absent from the new Westfield.

A large hole was made in the centre of Bradfield years ago for Westfield to build a new centre there, put the plans were then put on hold, leaving a large empty space. The Broadway Centre was eventually built, opening a couple of years ago, but the Westfield name doesn't seem to be anywhere on it.

[Neil Williams]

Post by s***@googlemail.com
Bad news for Croydon. The Whitgift Centre has for years been blighted
by Westfield's plans. Getting on for half of the shops are closed,
with more every time I go there. There's nothing much wrong with the
place which couldn't be fixed by some minor refurbishment, fixing some
leaks in the roof, some of which have been there for years, for
example, and a bit of paint.

It's an absolute rathole in every possible way and needs pulling down.

Post by s***@googlemail.com
We already have two Westfield centres in London, they mainly sell
things like expensive designer clothes, which are not something which
most people buy very often, if ever. They don't seem to attract shops
selling everyday things. There's a not very good Sainsbury's in the
Whitgift Centre, but rather than improving that it will almost
certainly be absent from the new Westfield.

Realistically who completes a full supermarket shop in a town centre
these days? An out of town supermarket and a Sainsburys Local (there
is already one near the station) will do better I reckon.

Post by s***@googlemail.com
A large hole was made in the centre of Bradfield years ago for
Westfield to build a new centre there, put the plans were then put on
hold, leaving a large empty space. The Broadway Centre was eventually
built, opening a couple of years ago, but the Westfield name doesn't
seem to be anywhere on it.

Bradford.

Neil

[tim...]

Post by Neil Williams

Post by s***@googlemail.com
Bad news for Croydon. The Whitgift Centre has for years been blighted by
Westfield's plans. Getting on for half of the shops are closed, with
more every time I go there. There's nothing much wrong with the place
which couldn't be fixed by some minor refurbishment, fixing some leaks in
the roof, some of which have been there for years, for example, and a bit
of paint.

It's an absolute rathole in every possible way and needs pulling down.

Post by s***@googlemail.com
We already have two Westfield centres in London, they mainly sell things
like expensive designer clothes, which are not something which most
people buy very often, if ever. They don't seem to attract shops selling
everyday things. There's a not very good Sainsbury's in the Whitgift
Centre, but rather than improving that it will almost certainly be absent
from the new Westfield.

Realistically who completes a full supermarket shop in a town centre these
days? An out of town supermarket and a Sainsburys Local (there is already
one near the station) will do better I reckon.

Post by s***@googlemail.com
A large hole was made in the centre of Bradfield years ago for Westfield
to build a new centre there, put the plans were then put on hold, leaving
a large empty space. The Broadway Centre was eventually built, opening a
couple of years ago, but the Westfield name doesn't seem to be anywhere
on it.

Bradford.

Bradfield is the fictional city where Wire in the Blood is set

Just thought you'd all like to know that

tim

[Basil Jet]

Post by tim...
Bradfield is the fictional city where Wire in the Blood is set

If you read the book, it was called Bielefeld in the original Klingon.

[Neil Williams]

Post by tim...
Bradfield is the fictional city where Wire in the Blood is set
Just thought you'd all like to know that

Oh. There is/was a big hole in the middle of Bradford pending a
shopping arcade of some kind, though.

Neil

[s***@googlemail.com]

Post by Neil Williams

Post by s***@googlemail.com
Bad news for Croydon. The Whitgift Centre has for years been blighted
by Westfield's plans. Getting on for half of the shops are closed,
with more every time I go there. There's nothing much wrong with the
place which couldn't be fixed by some minor refurbishment, fixing some
leaks in the roof, some of which have been there for years, for
example, and a bit of paint.

It's an absolute rathole in every possible way and needs pulling down.

Post by s***@googlemail.com
We already have two Westfield centres in London, they mainly sell
things like expensive designer clothes, which are not something which
most people buy very often, if ever. They don't seem to attract shops
selling everyday things. There's a not very good Sainsbury's in the
Whitgift Centre, but rather than improving that it will almost
certainly be absent from the new Westfield.

Realistically who completes a full supermarket shop in a town centre
these days? An out of town supermarket and a Sainsburys Local (there
is already one near the station) will do better I reckon.

Post by s***@googlemail.com
A large hole was made in the centre of Bradfield years ago for
Westfield to build a new centre there, put the plans were then put on
hold, leaving a large empty space. The Broadway Centre was eventually
built, opening a couple of years ago, but the Westfield name doesn't
seem to be anywhere on it.

Bradford.
Neil
--
Neil Williams

I know ir's Bradford[ I'm there quite often. Not sure if it was my brain, or the spell checker which did something odd.

[s***@googlemail.com]

Realistically who completes a full supermarket > shop in a town centre
these days? An out of town supermarket and a Sainsburys Local (there
is already one near the station) will do better I > reckon.

I only know quite a small number of people, but I can't think of anybody I know who goess out of town for their normal shopping. Such shopping is usually done within walking distance of home, or work, or of rhe journey between the two.

[Neil Williams]

Post by s***@googlemail.com

Realistically who completes a full supermarket > shop in a town centre
these days? An out of town supermarket and a Sainsburys Local (there
is already one near the station) will do better I > reckon.

I only know quite a small number of people, but I can't think of
anybody I know who goess out of town for their normal shopping. Such
shopping is usually done within walking distance of home, or work, or
of rhe journey between the two.

Mostly in Express/Local type stores then?

Maybe it's a London thing. In most of the UK the weekly shop is done
in an out of town style supermarket (sometimes on the edge of town, but
almost never actually *in* it).

Neil

[Theo]

Post by Neil Williams
Maybe it's a London thing. In most of the UK the weekly shop is done
in an out of town style supermarket (sometimes on the edge of town, but
almost never actually *in* it).

The thing is there isn't a weekly shop any more
(for some proportion of people):

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/earth/agriculture/supermarkets/11180181/How-we-fell-out-of-love-with-the-big-weekly-supermarket-shop.html

Theo

[Arthur Figgis]

Post by Neil Williams

Post by s***@googlemail.com

Realistically who completes a full supermarket > shop in a town centre
these days?  An out of town supermarket and a Sainsburys Local (there
is already one near the station) will do better I > reckon.

I only know quite a small number of people, but I can't think of
anybody I know who goess out of town for their normal shopping.  Such
shopping is usually done within walking distance of home, or work, or
of rhe journey between the two.

Mostly in Express/Local type stores then?
Maybe it's a London thing.  In most of the UK the weekly shop is done in
an out of town style supermarket (sometimes on the edge of town, but
almost never actually *in* it).

Varying levels of car ownership might be factor. And people do live
within walking distance from outer-ish London urban centres.

And strictly speaking, out of town could be quite a long way for many
people in a built up area the size of London. :)

[Theo]

Post by Neil Williams
Realistically who completes a full supermarket shop in a town centre
these days? An out of town supermarket and a Sainsburys Local (there
is already one near the station) will do better I reckon.

People who live in the town centre? People who don't drive (car ownership
is declining)?

Of course the meaning of 'supermarket' has changed. Previously, at the time
many of these were built, a supermarket would be on the High Street and take
about 400m2. Now a supermarket is an aircraft hangar with an airport-sized
car park outside.

So if by 'Sainsbury's Local' you mean something about the same size as an
Aldi or a Lidl in a city centre, I agree with you. If you mean a glorified
corner shop where you can buy barely more than a pint of milk and some ready
meals, it's probably not going to do it for a lot of people. Online
deliveries help people without a car, but the trend is that many people are
tending to shop little and often, not do weekly shops.

Maybe the hangars will eventually go dark and turn into delivery depots
instead of walk-in shops?

Theo

[Neil Williams]

Post by Theo
Maybe the hangars will eventually go dark and turn into delivery depots
instead of walk-in shops?

Tesco already have dark stores, and *all* of Ocado's operation is like
that. One advantage is that you can operate proper stock control
rather than guessing and substituting.

FWIW I haven't set foot in one for a while, I use delivery now. Though
deliveries allegedly aren't very profitable at present, I would pay
more than I do so there is a bit of scope for increasing the price.

Neil

[David Cantrell]

Post by Neil Williams
Realistically who completes a full supermarket shop in a town centre
these days? An out of town supermarket and a Sainsburys Local (there
is already one near the station) will do better I reckon.

I expect that most people in London do. And that includes Croydon.

[Basil Jet]

Post by David Cantrell

Post by Neil Williams
Realistically who completes a full supermarket shop in a town centre
these days? An out of town supermarket and a Sainsburys Local (there
is already one near the station) will do better I reckon.

I expect that most people in London do. And that includes Croydon.

I'll shop anywhere I can park free. Which rules out town centres.

[David Cantrell]

Post by Basil Jet

Post by David Cantrell

Post by Neil Williams
Realistically who completes a full supermarket shop in a town centre
these days? An out of town supermarket and a Sainsburys Local (there
is already one near the station) will do better I reckon.

I expect that most people in London do. And that includes Croydon.

I'll shop anywhere I can park free. Which rules out town centres.

Bollocks. You can park for free at all four of my local supermarkets,
two of which are in the town centre.

[Robin]

Post by s***@googlemail.com
Bad news for Croydon. The Whitgift Centre has for years been blighted by Westfield's plans. Getting on for half of the shops are closed, with more every time I go there. There's nothing much wrong with the place which couldn't be fixed by some minor refurbishment, fixing some leaks in the roof, some of which have been there for years, for example, and a bit of paint.
We already have two Westfield centres in London, they mainly sell things like expensive designer clothes, which are not something which most people buy very often, if ever. They don't seem to attract shops selling everyday things. There's a not very good Sainsbury's in the Whitgift Centre, but rather than improving that it will almost certainly be absent from the new Westfield.

I am one of many people who make frequent use of the large M&S and John
Lewis/Waitrose stores which anchor the 2 ends of Westfield in Stratford
for things other than designer clothes. And also use from time to time
stores such as Boots, WH Smiths, Argos, Cotswold Outdoor and Lakeland.
It can be a bit of a pain having to negotiate the fashionistas with
shoes and nails capable of inflicting life-changing injuries (especially
when they are walking 4 abreast) but life's rarely perfect.

[Offramp]

Post by s***@googlemail.com
Bad news for Croydon. The Whitgift Centre has for years been blighted by Westfield's plans. Getting on for half of the shops are closed, with more every time I go there.

I had never heard of the Tricorn centre, Portsmouth, until last month.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tricorn_Centre
A huge concrete shopping centre that opened in c1966 and was demolished in 2004.

[Basil Jet]

Post by Offramp

Post by s***@googlemail.com
Bad news for Croydon. The Whitgift Centre has for years been blighted by Westfield's plans. Getting on for half of the shops are closed, with more every time I go there.

I had never heard of the Tricorn centre, Portsmouth, until last month.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tricorn_Centre
A huge concrete shopping centre that opened in c1966 and was demolished in 2004.

The world's largest shopping centre has been largely deserted ever since
it was built...

https://www.iol.co.za/business-report/international/worlds-biggest-mall-becomes-a-chinese-white-elephant-729495

[Arthur Figgis]

Post by Offramp
I had never heard of the Tricorn centre, Portsmouth, until last month.

It used to appear in discussions of architecture for similar kinds of
reasons to New Street station.

[r***@cix.compulink.co.uk]

Post by Arthur Figgis

Post by Offramp
I had never heard of the Tricorn centre, Portsmouth, until last month.

It used to appear in discussions of architecture for similar kinds of
reasons to New Street station.

Ah! The late unlamented Pallasades shopping centre!

[d***@yahoo.co.uk]

On Thu, 16 Nov 2017 17:56:51 +0000, Arthur Figgis

Post by Arthur Figgis

Post by Offramp
I had never heard of the Tricorn centre, Portsmouth, until last month.

It used to appear in discussions of architecture for similar kinds of
reasons to New Street station.

It had a Northern Brother in Gateshead which featured in the Get
Carter gangster film ( the real one not the Septic copy)

https://www.dezeen.com/2014/09/14/brutalist-buildings-trinity-square-get-carter-car-park-owen-luder/

It too has been demolished.

G.Harman

[r***@cix.compulink.co.uk]

Post by s***@googlemail.com
Bad news for Croydon. The Whitgift Centre has for years been
blighted by Westfield's plans. Getting on for half of the shops are
closed, with more every time I go there. There's nothing much wrong
with the place which couldn't be fixed by some minor refurbishment,
fixing some leaks in the roof, some of which have been there for
years, for example, and a bit of paint.
We already have two Westfield centres in London, they mainly sell
things like expensive designer clothes, which are not something which
most people buy very often, if ever. They don't seem to attract
shops selling everyday things. There's a not very good Sainsbury's
in the Whitgift Centre, but rather than improving that it will almost
certainly be absent from the new Westfield.
A large hole was made in the centre of Bradfield years ago for
Westfield to build a new centre there, put the plans were then put on
hold, leaving a large empty space. The Broadway Centre was
eventually built, opening a couple of years ago, but the Westfield
name doesn't seem to be anywhere on it.

The rag trade seem to be the bread and butter tenants of modern shopping
centres, providing the best rental income to sustain them. Look at
Cambridge's Grand Arcade. Nothing to do with Westfield but heavily loaded
with shops full of things which you'd think people wouldn't buy very often.
In these days of internet shopping that's how retail survives, I was told
when I was the councillor in charge of the development.

[Theo]

Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
The rag trade seem to be the bread and butter tenants of modern shopping
centres, providing the best rental income to sustain them. Look at
Cambridge's Grand Arcade. Nothing to do with Westfield but heavily loaded
with shops full of things which you'd think people wouldn't buy very often.
In these days of internet shopping that's how retail survives, I was told
when I was the councillor in charge of the development.

There's also tourists - enough throughput and shops can survive selling
once-a-year things every day. Apparently (it was in the Telegraph so it
must be true) the most popular sites for Chinese tourists visiting the UK
are, in order, Buckingham Palace and Bicester Village.

Theo

[Neil Williams]

Post by Basil Jet
Apparently the Centrale shopping centre (which only opened in 2004) is
to be merged with the Whitgift Centre. I think this will probably
create the largest shopping centre in the UK, since the combined area
of the current centres is only just short of the Metro Centre in
Newcastle.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-41983441
This page suggests that East Croydon may gain a fourth pair of NR platforms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croydon_Vision_2020#Train_Station
The page also talks about lengthening tram platforms at West Croydon,
although I couldn't quite find enough info to make sense of that. I
would have imagined that all the tram platforms are the same length,
and there would be no point in lengthening one unless you lengthen them
all.

I'd imagine that will be a relatively good thing - Croydon high street
and both shopping centres are abject dumps (particularly the Whitgift
which needs knocking down).

Neil

[tim...]

Apparently the Centrale shopping centre (which only opened in 2004) is to
be merged with the Whitgift Centre. I think this will probably create the
largest shopping centre in the UK, since the combined area of the current
centres is only just short of the Metro Centre in Newcastle.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-41983441
This page suggests that East Croydon may gain a fourth pair of NR platforms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croydon_Vision_2020#Train_Station
The page also talks about lengthening tram platforms at West Croydon,
although I couldn't quite find enough info to make sense of that. I would
have imagined that all the tram platforms are the same length, and there
would be no point in lengthening one unless you lengthen them all.

I'd imagine that will be a relatively good thing - Croydon high street and
both shopping centres are abject dumps (particularly the Whitgift which
needs knocking down).

it is 50 years old, and it was a revolutionary new way of shopping when it
opened (and, of course, the high street was still a main road through the
town at the time)

but the rest of the world has caught up and moved on

tim

[b***@cylonHQ.com]

On Wed, 15 Nov 2017 14:01:58 -0000

Post by tim...

Apparently the Centrale shopping centre (which only opened in 2004) is to
be merged with the Whitgift Centre. I think this will probably create the
largest shopping centre in the UK, since the combined area of the current
centres is only just short of the Metro Centre in Newcastle.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-41983441
This page suggests that East Croydon may gain a fourth pair of NR platforms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croydon_Vision_2020#Train_Station
The page also talks about lengthening tram platforms at West Croydon,
although I couldn't quite find enough info to make sense of that. I would
have imagined that all the tram platforms are the same length, and there
would be no point in lengthening one unless you lengthen them all.

I'd imagine that will be a relatively good thing - Croydon high street and
both shopping centres are abject dumps (particularly the Whitgift which
needs knocking down).

it is 50 years old, and it was a revolutionary new way of shopping when it
opened (and, of course, the high street was still a main road through the
town at the time)
but the rest of the world has caught up and moved on

The age doesn't matter, its all down to whether the owners can be arsed to
keep it up to date and whether the locals are chav scum or not. Brent Cross is
over 40 years old but you'd never know it walking around inside it because it
gets investment and is in a relatively well off area.

[Neil Williams]

Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
The age doesn't matter, its all down to whether the owners can be arsed to
keep it up to date and whether the locals are chav scum or not. Brent Cross is
over 40 years old but you'd never know it walking around inside it because it
gets investment and is in a relatively well off area.

Similarly the "old bit" of Milton Keynes shopping centre.

Croydon is an abject dump, which is surprising given how many well-off
commuters live there.

Neil

[Tony Dragon]

Post by Neil Williams

Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
The age doesn't matter, its all down to whether the owners can be arsed to
keep it up to date and whether the locals are chav scum or not. Brent Cross is
over 40 years old but you'd never know it walking around inside it because it
gets investment and is in a relatively well off area.

Similarly the "old bit" of Milton Keynes shopping centre.
Croydon is an abject dump, which is surprising given how many well-off
commuters live there.
Neil

But it does get the visitors to Luner House.

[Neil Williams]

Post by Tony Dragon
But it does get the visitors to Luner House.

That place really is an embarrassment. "Welcome to the UK - now naff
off" is about what it says.

Neil

[Tony Dragon]

Post by Tony Dragon
But it does get the visitors to Luner House.

That place really is an embarrassment.  "Welcome to the UK - now naff
off" is about what it says.
Neil

A 'visitor' once asked me near Delta Point "Lunar House, asylum, please'.
I told him to walk about a mile down Wellesley Road, Whitehorse road and
turn right at Whitehorse Lane. Lunar house was the building with the big
lights.
He's probably a Palace supporter now.

[Arthur Figgis]

Post by Tony Dragon
But it does get the visitors to Luner House.

That place really is an embarrassment.  "Welcome to the UK - now naff
off" is about what it says.

Isn't that the idea of it?

[b***@cylonHQ.com]

On Wed, 15 Nov 2017 15:45:02 +0000

Post by Neil Williams

Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
The age doesn't matter, its all down to whether the owners can be arsed to
keep it up to date and whether the locals are chav scum or not. Brent Cross

is

Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
over 40 years old but you'd never know it walking around inside it because it
gets investment and is in a relatively well off area.

Similarly the "old bit" of Milton Keynes shopping centre.
Croydon is an abject dump, which is surprising given how many well-off
commuters live there.

And all the PT facilities the place has. I suppose the problem is it can't
decide if its a town or a suburb and whether they should invest in it when
most people just head off to london to work.

[Neil Williams]

Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
And all the PT facilities the place has. I suppose the problem is it can't
decide if its a town or a suburb and whether they should invest in it when
most people just head off to london to work.

Yeah, I'd imagine that, by and large, the commuters use one of the
local out of town supermarkets then go to London for everything else,
and it's them that's got the money. Their kids no doubt hang around in
town, but they don't care if it's a bit crap as long as their mates are
there.

TBH I don't often go to MK shopping centre.

Neil

[s***@googlemail.com]

Post by Neil Williams

Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
The age doesn't matter, its all down to whether the owners can be arsed to
keep it up to date and whether the locals are chav scum or not. Brent Cross is
over 40 years old but you'd never know it walking around inside it because it
gets investment and is in a relatively well off area.

Similarly the "old bit" of Milton Keynes shopping centre.
Croydon is an abject dump, which is surprising given how many well-off
commuters live there.
Neil

I recently went into the Elephant & Castle shopping centre for probably the first time in about ten years, looking for a cash machine when on my way to a screening at the Cinema Museum. I used to use it quite often in the '60s and early '70s, when it wasn't bad. The top floor only ever had a handful of shops occupied, and this floor was closed and converted into something else, offices I think, not many years after it was built. The remaining two floors are horrible now.

[Neil Williams]

Post by s***@googlemail.com
I recently went into the Elephant & Castle shopping centre for probably
the first time in about ten years, looking for a cash machine when on
my way to a screening at the Cinema Museum. I used to use it quite
often in the '60s and early '70s, when it wasn't bad. The top floor
only ever had a handful of shops occupied, and this floor was closed
and converted into something else, offices I think, not many years
after it was built. The remaining two floors are horrible now.

Absolutely everything about the Elephant is a dump from start to
finish. It's embarrassing that one of the world's richest cities lets
things get so bad.

Neil

[b***@cylonHQ.com]

On Wed, 15 Nov 2017 10:11:35 -0800 (PST)

I recently went into the Elephant & Castle shopping centre for probably the=
first time in about ten years, looking for a cash machine when on my way t=
o a screening at the Cinema Museum. I used to use it quite often in the '6=
0s and early '70s, when it wasn't bad. The top floor only ever had a handf=

The 60s and 70s was before the demographics changed significantly and the
area went downhill faster than a rolling cheese contest.

ul of shops occupied, and this floor was closed and converted into somethin=
g else, offices I think, not many years after it was built. The remaining =
two floors are horrible now.

Agreed, its an utter dump not helped by the run down market surrounding it on
2 sides.

[unknown]

Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
On Wed, 15 Nov 2017 10:11:35 -0800 (PST)

I recently went into the Elephant & Castle shopping centre for probably the=
first time in about ten years, looking for a cash machine when on my way t=
o a screening at the Cinema Museum. I used to use it quite often in the '6=
0s and early '70s, when it wasn't bad. The top floor only ever had a handf=

The 60s and 70s was before the demographics changed significantly and the
area went downhill faster than a rolling cheese contest.

ul of shops occupied, and this floor was closed and converted into somethin=
g else, offices I think, not many years after it was built. The remaining =
two floors are horrible now.

Agreed, its an utter dump not helped by the run down market surrounding it on
2 sides.

Whicg 2 sides its onme street and full of crap greengrocers

[b***@cylonHQ.com]

On Thu, 16 Nov 2017 17:17:08 +0000

Post by unknown

Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
On Wed, 15 Nov 2017 10:11:35 -0800 (PST)

I recently went into the Elephant & Castle shopping centre for probably the=
first time in about ten years, looking for a cash machine when on my way t=
o a screening at the Cinema Museum. I used to use it quite often in the '6=
0s and early '70s, when it wasn't bad. The top floor only ever had a handf=

The 60s and 70s was before the demographics changed significantly and the
area went downhill faster than a rolling cheese contest.

ul of shops occupied, and this floor was closed and converted into somethin=
g else, offices I think, not many years after it was built. The remaining =
two floors are horrible now.

Agreed, its an utter dump not helped by the run down market surrounding it on
2 sides.

Whicg 2 sides its onme street and full of crap greengrocers

Eh? Its not a street, its offset from a now pedestrianised area with a sub
level that has the market in which goes around the side of the centre. Which
century did you last visit it? I was there 3 weeks ago as I work 10 mins walk
away.

https://goo.gl/maps/XLBxanNwggD2

And that road is now gone:

https://goo.gl/maps/nv6ztZFTid82

[unknown]

Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
On Thu, 16 Nov 2017 17:17:08 +0000

Post by unknown

Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
On Wed, 15 Nov 2017 10:11:35 -0800 (PST)

Post by s***@googlemail.com
I recently went into the Elephant & Castle shopping centre for
probably the= first time in about ten years, looking for a cash
machine when on my way t= o a screening at the Cinema Museum. I used
to use it quite often in the '6= 0s and early '70s, when it wasn't
bad. The top floor only ever had a handf=

The 60s and 70s was before the demographics changed significantly and the
area went downhill faster than a rolling cheese contest.

Post by s***@googlemail.com
ul of shops occupied, and this floor was closed and converted into
somethin= g else, offices I think, not many years after it was built.
The remaining = two floors are horrible now.

Agreed, its an utter dump not helped by the run down market surrounding
it on 2 sides.

Whicg 2 sides its onme street and full of crap greengrocers

Eh? Its not a street, its offset from a now pedestrianised area with a sub
level that has the market in which goes around the side of the centre. Which
century did you last visit it? I was there 3 weeks ago as I work 10 mins walk
away.
https://goo.gl/maps/XLBxanNwggD2
https://goo.gl/maps/nv6ztZFTid82

Sorry I got the wrong thread and yes the elephant & castle has nor been
been good for many years

[David Cantrell]

Post by Neil Williams
Croydon is an abject dump, which is surprising given how many well-off
commuters live there.

Hi! Well-off commuter resident of Croydon here!

The only reason I ever have for going in to central Croydon is to drink
at the Dog n Bull occasionally. There is literally nothing else there of
any interest to me whatsoever. I have local greengrocers and butchers,
and everything else is either delivered from the interwebs or not
available in Croydon town centre anyway.

[Neil Williams]

Post by David Cantrell

Post by Neil Williams
Croydon is an abject dump, which is surprising given how many well-off
commuters live there.

Hi! Well-off commuter resident of Croydon here!
The only reason I ever have for going in to central Croydon is to drink
at the Dog n Bull occasionally. There is literally nothing else there of
any interest to me whatsoever. I have local greengrocers and butchers,
and everything else is either delivered from the interwebs or not
available in Croydon town centre anyway.

Cheers, this is largely how I suspected things to be. FWIW, some of
the housing areas of Croydon are very nice (and pricey) :)

Neil

[Basil Jet]

Cheers, this is largely how I suspected things to be.  FWIW, some of the
housing areas of Croydon are very nice (and pricey) :)

Purley... say no more!

[David Cantrell]

Post by Neil Williams

Post by David Cantrell

Post by Neil Williams
Croydon is an abject dump, which is surprising given how many well-off
commuters live there.

Hi! Well-off commuter resident of Croydon here!
The only reason I ever have for going in to central Croydon is to drink
at the Dog n Bull occasionally. There is literally nothing else there of
any interest to me whatsoever. I have local greengrocers and butchers,
and everything else is either delivered from the interwebs or not
available in Croydon town centre anyway.

Cheers, this is largely how I suspected things to be. FWIW, some of
the housing areas of Croydon are very nice (and pricey) :)

Well, it turns out I lied to you!

Someone phoned me yesterday and asked if I wanted to come and play board
games at a new "board games cafe" on Croydon High Street. So I did. I
now have two reasons to go into central Croydon.

FWIW it's called Ludoquist, and has a decent choice of beer, good cheap
pizzas, and of course lots of board games, both modern and traditional.

[tim...]

Post by David Cantrell

Post by Neil Williams

Post by David Cantrell

Post by Neil Williams
Croydon is an abject dump, which is surprising given how many well-off
commuters live there.

Hi! Well-off commuter resident of Croydon here!
The only reason I ever have for going in to central Croydon is to drink
at the Dog n Bull occasionally. There is literally nothing else there of
any interest to me whatsoever. I have local greengrocers and butchers,
and everything else is either delivered from the interwebs or not
available in Croydon town centre anyway.

Cheers, this is largely how I suspected things to be. FWIW, some of
the housing areas of Croydon are very nice (and pricey) :)

Well, it turns out I lied to you!
Someone phoned me yesterday and asked if I wanted to come and play board
games at a new "board games cafe" on Croydon High Street. So I did. I
now have two reasons to go into central Croydon.
FWIW it's called Ludoquist, and has a decent choice of beer, good cheap
pizzas, and of course lots of board games, both modern and traditional.

funded by kickstarter

tim

[s***@googlemail.com]

Post by David Cantrell
FWIW it's called Ludoquist, and has a decent choice of beer, good cheap
pizzas, and of course lots of board games, both modern and traditional.

I work part time just around the corner at the David Lean Cinema in the Croydon Clocktower, and catch my bus home from the stop just before the flyover, where the Davis Theatre used to be, so I walk past the place. Never seen anything like it before. It doesn't appeal to me, but it's an interesting idea.

[martin]

Post by David Cantrell

Post by Neil Williams
Croydon is an abject dump, which is surprising given how many well-off
commuters live there.

Hi! Well-off commuter resident of Croydon here!
The only reason I ever have for going in to central Croydon is to drink
at the Dog n Bull occasionally. There is literally nothing else there of
any interest to me whatsoever. I have local greengrocers and butchers,
and everything else is either delivered from the interwebs or not
available in Croydon town centre anyway.

well I havent been down the market for a few years as I havent lived
in Croydon since 1971, but we used to have poetry readings at the Dog & Bull
in the mid 60's, and Croydon was pretty awful then

[tim...]

Post by b***@cylonHQ.com
On Wed, 15 Nov 2017 14:01:58 -0000

Post by tim...

Apparently the Centrale shopping centre (which only opened in 2004) is to
be merged with the Whitgift Centre. I think this will probably create the
largest shopping centre in the UK, since the combined area of the current
centres is only just short of the Metro Centre in Newcastle.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-41983441
This page suggests that East Croydon may gain a fourth pair of NR platforms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croydon_Vision_2020#Train_Station
The page also talks about lengthening tram platforms at West Croydon,
although I couldn't quite find enough info to make sense of that. I would
have imagined that all the tram platforms are the same length, and there
would be no point in lengthening one unless you lengthen them all.

I'd imagine that will be a relatively good thing - Croydon high street and
both shopping centres are abject dumps (particularly the Whitgift which
needs knocking down).

it is 50 years old, and it was a revolutionary new way of shopping when it
opened (and, of course, the high street was still a main road through the
town at the time)
but the rest of the world has caught up and moved on

The age doesn't matter, its all down to whether the owners can be arsed to
keep it up to date and whether the locals are chav scum or not. Brent Cross is
over 40 years old but you'd never know it walking around inside it because it
gets investment and is in a relatively well off area.

The problem at Croydon is that it was originally built as an open air
shopping centre

I know that they added a roof, but it still must be difficult to give it the
ambiance of a center which was built from scratch as an indoor centre

tim

[Arthur Figgis]

Post by Neil Williams
I'd imagine that will be a relatively good thing - Croydon high street
and both shopping centres are abject dumps (particularly the Whitgift
which needs knocking down).

There is a slight terminology issue, in that the High Street is not the
high street - the pedestrianised North End is the high street, IYSWIM.

Try St George's Walk for a post-Soviet style experience.

[David Cantrell]

Post by Arthur Figgis
Try St George's Walk for a post-Soviet style experience.

According to someone in the planning dept it's only still there because
no-one wants to be responsible for the asbestos when they demolish it.
I did point out that if you try hard enough both concrete and asbestos
can be made to accidentally go on fire, but that the fumes would be ...
well, I'd prefer to be downwind of Chernobyl when it was on fire.

[tim...]

Apparently the Centrale shopping centre (which only opened in 2004) is to
be merged with the Whitgift Centre. I think this will probably create the
largest shopping centre in the UK, since the combined area of the current
centres is only just short of the Metro Centre in Newcastle.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-41983441
This page suggests that East Croydon may gain a fourth pair of NR platforms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croydon_Vision_2020#Train_Station

"It said it would "cement Croydon's reputation as one of the best
destinations in the capital to live, work and play"

provided that you don't mind ignoring the law about carrying a knife with
you, that is

tim

[Sam Wilson]

Post by tim...

Post by Basil Jet
Apparently the Centrale shopping centre (which only opened in 2004) is
to be merged with the Whitgift Centre. I think this will probably
create the largest shopping centre in the UK, since the combined area
of the current centres is only just short of the Metro Centre in
Newcastle.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-41983441
This page suggests that East Croydon may gain a fourth pair of NR platforms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croydon_Vision_2020#Train_Station

"It said it would "cement Croydon's reputation as one of the best
destinations in the capital to live, work and play"
provided that you don't mind ignoring the law about carrying a knife
with you, that is

Is it compulsory? My friends from Croydon didn't tell me about that.
Perhaps I should trust them less.

Sam

[tim...]

Post by Sam Wilson

Post by tim...

Post by Basil Jet
Apparently the Centrale shopping centre (which only opened in 2004) is
to be merged with the Whitgift Centre. I think this will probably create
the largest shopping centre in the UK, since the combined area of the
current centres is only just short of the Metro Centre in Newcastle.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-london-41983441
This page suggests that East Croydon may gain a fourth pair of NR platforms.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croydon_Vision_2020#Train_Station

"It said it would "cement Croydon's reputation as one of the best
destinations in the capital to live, work and play"
provided that you don't mind ignoring the law about carrying a knife with
you, that is

Is it compulsory? My friends from Croydon didn't tell me about that.
Perhaps I should trust them less.

It's not compulsory

but don't be surprised if you feel unsafe without it

tim

[p***@gmail.com]

Post by Basil Jet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croydon_Vision_2020#Train_Station
The page also talks about lengthening tram platforms at West Croydon,
although I couldn't quite find enough info to make sense of that. I
would have imagined that all the tram platforms are the same length, and
there would be no point in lengthening one unless you lengthen them all.

It's actually East Croydon where they propose lengthening the platforms to accommodate four car trams, not West Croydon.

[Basil Jet]

Post by p***@gmail.com

Post by Basil Jet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croydon_Vision_2020#Train_Station
The page also talks about lengthening tram platforms at West Croydon,
although I couldn't quite find enough info to make sense of that. I
would have imagined that all the tram platforms are the same length, and
there would be no point in lengthening one unless you lengthen them all.

It's actually East Croydon where they propose lengthening the platforms to accommodate four car trams, not West Croydon.

So are they saying that two trams per direction would dwell
simultaneously there, rather than there being "four car trams"?

[tim...]

Post by p***@gmail.com

Post by Basil Jet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croydon_Vision_2020#Train_Station
The page also talks about lengthening tram platforms at West Croydon,
although I couldn't quite find enough info to make sense of that. I
would have imagined that all the tram platforms are the same length, and
there would be no point in lengthening one unless you lengthen them all.

It's actually East Croydon where they propose lengthening the platforms
to accommodate four car trams, not West Croydon.

So are they saying that two trams per direction would dwell simultaneously
there, rather than there being "four car trams"?

you write that like there's some reason that would be a dumb operational
procedure

tim

[Basil Jet]

Post by tim...

Post by Basil Jet

Post by p***@gmail.com

Post by Basil Jet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croydon_Vision_2020#Train_Station
The page also talks about lengthening tram platforms at West Croydon,
although I couldn't quite find enough info to make sense of that. I
would have imagined that all the tram platforms are the same length, and
there would be no point in lengthening one unless you lengthen them all.

It's actually East Croydon where they propose lengthening the
platforms to accommodate four car trams, not West Croydon.

So are they saying that two trams per direction would dwell
simultaneously there, rather than there being "four car trams"?

you write that like there's some reason that would be a dumb operational
procedure

Not at all. I just think the page is a mess. At West Croydon,
"straightening tram tracks will allow for the usage of three car trams"
and at East Croydon "the tram stop outside the station is to be extended
to accommodate four car trams".

Lengthening the EC stop for multiple trams is not ideal anyway, because
the trams in both directions have multiple branches after only two
stops, so pretty much every waiting passenger will have to cluster at
the centre of the stop because they won't know in advance if their tram
will stop on the back or the front. I suspect the extended dwells are
from the east in the morning and to the east in the evening, in which
case two islands with a tidal central track might work better. (Quick
Google) Oh, they've already got three tracks there.

[r***@cix.compulink.co.uk]

Post by Basil Jet

Post by tim...

Post by Basil Jet

Post by p***@gmail.com

Post by Basil Jet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croydon_Vision_2020#Train_Station
The page also talks about lengthening tram platforms at West Croydon,
although I couldn't quite find enough info to make sense of that. I
would have imagined that all the tram platforms are the same length,
and there would be no point in lengthening one unless you lengthen
them all.

It's actually East Croydon where they propose lengthening the
platforms to accommodate four car trams, not West Croydon.

So are they saying that two trams per direction would dwell
simultaneously there, rather than there being "four car trams"?

you write that like there's some reason that would be a dumb
operational procedure

Not at all. I just think the page is a mess. At West Croydon,
"straightening tram tracks will allow for the usage of three car trams"

Does that mean the Variobahn trams can't go that way now? Looking at the
West Croydon tram stop on Google Streetview that's obviously not the case so
I don't understand this point.

Post by Basil Jet
and at East Croydon "the tram stop outside the station is to
be extended to accommodate four car trams".
Lengthening the EC stop for multiple trams is not ideal anyway,
because the trams in both directions have multiple branches after
only two stops, so pretty much every waiting passenger will have to
cluster at the centre of the stop because they won't know in advance
if their tram will stop on the back or the front. I suspect the
extended dwells are from the east in the morning and to the east in
the evening, in which case two islands with a tidal central track
might work better. (Quick Google) Oh, they've already got three
tracks there.

Which do occasionally get used (never been there in the high peak). So the
idea of doubling up trams as well is hard to fathom.

[Arthur Figgis]

Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Does that mean the Variobahn trams can't go that way now? Looking at the
West Croydon tram stop on Google Streetview that's obviously not the case so
I don't understand this point.

I think the Variobahns do go everywhere now.

IIRC there have been discussions about coupling trams together, or
buying longer ones to replace the CR4000s as and when they reach the end
of their lives. There are also issues about getting trams through
various traffic lights - it has been said that there is some rule that
only one tram can go through per light cycle, which causes issues.

[r***@cix.compulink.co.uk]

Post by Arthur Figgis

Post by r***@cix.compulink.co.uk
Does that mean the Variobahn trams can't go that way now? Looking at the
West Croydon tram stop on Google Streetview that's obviously not the
case so I don't understand this point.

I think the Variobahns do go everywhere now.
IIRC there have been discussions about coupling trams together, or
buying longer ones to replace the CR4000s as and when they reach the
end of their lives.

Perhaps they might be interested in some spare Edinburgh trams?

Post by Arthur Figgis
There are also issues about getting trams through
various traffic lights - it has been said that there is some rule
that only one tram can go through per light cycle, which causes
issues.

Good grief! Why?

[tim...]

Post by Basil Jet

Post by tim...

Post by Basil Jet

Post by p***@gmail.com

Post by Basil Jet
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Croydon_Vision_2020#Train_Station
The page also talks about lengthening tram platforms at West Croydon,
although I couldn't quite find enough info to make sense of that. I
would have imagined that all the tram platforms are the same length, and
there would be no point in lengthening one unless you lengthen them all.

It's actually East Croydon where they propose lengthening the platforms
to accommodate four car trams, not West Croydon.

So are they saying that two trams per direction would dwell
simultaneously there, rather than there being "four car trams"?

you write that like there's some reason that would be a dumb operational
procedure

Not at all. I just think the page is a mess. At West Croydon,
"straightening tram tracks will allow for the usage of three car trams"
and at East Croydon "the tram stop outside the station is to be extended
to accommodate four car trams".
Lengthening the EC stop for multiple trams is not ideal anyway, because
the trams in both directions have multiple branches after only two stops,
so pretty much every waiting passenger will have to cluster at the centre
of the stop because they won't know in advance if their tram will stop on
the back or the front.

well that's easily soluble by having a departure board that tells them -
other countries have no difficulty doing this

tim