Some additional notes from IKEA/VSI event.

[Jan-Erik Soderholm]

Hi.

I just found my notes from the IKEA/VSI event last Novemeber and
there was a few additional points that might interest someone...

IKEA:
374 stores. Each with an rs2800 (mixed i2 and i4).
D2700 storage (25 x 2.5" disk shelf).
One "disaster recovery" since 1987. That store is currently run
remotely from the central data center. "The going back to local
system is nearly as much of an issue as the original disaster
recovery was". It's an US store that runs remotely from Sweden.
User side of the store system is available in 20 local languages.
Number of store grows with 10 % a year. So that is the number
of new local VMS systems planed, configured and deployed each year.
Handles nearly all parts of the daily IKEA supermarket operations.
One comment was that DECnet has been completely shut down all over.

Some notes from the presentation from Johan Gedda (presented
by HP Connect as "main owner of and investor in VSI":
Approx $40 spent on the x86-64 port so far. Expected approx an
additional $15 to finish the port. (This was nov-2016).
Now, if I heard right and got the figures correct... :-)
USPS and Indian railway was mentioned as (I guess) larger customers.
Doesn't expect VMS to compete head-to-head on the general computing
market where Linux and Windows more or less "owns" the market.
Are looking for niche markets where VMS can show it strengths.
The university/education area was mentioned. No reason to drag
Itanium boxes there, no interest, waiting for the X86-64 port.
VSI as a company "works" in many ways like Rocket Software. A high
probability for a subscription based licensing for VMS on x86-64.

Hope it can be of any interest...

Jan-Erik.

[Lee Gleason]

"Jan-Erik Soderholm" wrote in message
news:o6ofha$p6t$***@news.albasani.net...


>I just found my notes from the IKEA/VSI event last Novemeber and
>there was a few additional points that might interest someone...
>Some notes from the presentation from Johan Gedda (presented
>by HP Connect as "main owner of and investor in VSI":
>Approx $40 spent on the x86-64 port so far. Expected approx an
>additional $15 to finish the port. (This was nov-2016).

Heck I thought it was gonna cost at least $100.00 to do the port...

--
Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR
Control-G Consultants
***@comcast.net

[Jan-Erik Soderholm]

Den 2017-01-31 kl. 00:10, skrev Lee Gleason:
>
>
> "Jan-Erik Soderholm" wrote in message news:o6ofha$p6t$***@news.albasani.net...
>
>
>> I just found my notes from the IKEA/VSI event last Novemeber and
>> there was a few additional points that might interest someone...
>> Some notes from the presentation from Johan Gedda (presented
>> by HP Connect as "main owner of and investor in VSI":
>> Approx $40 spent on the x86-64 port so far. Expected approx an
>> additional $15 to finish the port. (This was nov-2016).
>
> Heck I thought it was gonna cost at least $100.00 to do the port...
>
> --
> Lee K. Gleason N5ZMR
> Control-G Consultants
> ***@comcast.net

He... :-) That should have been "million USD", of course.

[IanD]

On Tuesday, January 31, 2017 at 9:42:51 AM UTC+11, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
> Hi.
>
> I just found my notes from the IKEA/VSI event last Novemeber and
> there was a few additional points that might interest someone...
>
> IKEA:
> 374 stores. Each with an rs2800 (mixed i2 and i4).
> D2700 storage (25 x 2.5" disk shelf).
> One "disaster recovery" since 1987. That store is currently run
> remotely from the central data center. "The going back to local
> system is nearly as much of an issue as the original disaster
> recovery was". It's an US store that runs remotely from Sweden.
> User side of the store system is available in 20 local languages.
> Number of store grows with 10 % a year. So that is the number
> of new local VMS systems planed, configured and deployed each year.
> Handles nearly all parts of the daily IKEA supermarket operations.
> One comment was that DECnet has been completely shut down all over.
>
> Some notes from the presentation from Johan Gedda (presented
> by HP Connect as "main owner of and investor in VSI":
> Approx $40 spent on the x86-64 port so far. Expected approx an
> additional $15 to finish the port. (This was nov-2016).
> Now, if I heard right and got the figures correct... :-)
> USPS and Indian railway was mentioned as (I guess) larger customers.
> Doesn't expect VMS to compete head-to-head on the general computing
> market where Linux and Windows more or less "owns" the market.
> Are looking for niche markets where VMS can show it strengths.
> The university/education area was mentioned. No reason to drag
> Itanium boxes there, no interest, waiting for the X86-64 port.
> VSI as a company "works" in many ways like Rocket Software. A high
> probability for a subscription based licensing for VMS on x86-64.
>
> Hope it can be of any interest...
>
> Jan-Erik.

Very interesting indeed

Not attempting to compete with linux / windows is sensible, let them fight it out until they reach equilibrium

Sadly, this also tells me that VMS is most likely be pitched at a cost outside of my budget :-( and on hardware that I doubt is commodity based within my skimpy budget

University / education! This is surprising. It was once there but greed took over

Universities want everything for free, I can't see this as profitable unless your going to somehow coerce all those no money students to knock out free code on VMS again like many years ago. The development environment is going to need to be radically modernised before that happens

Education is moving rapidly into the enterprise sized scale. Students for life is where they are heading

If it was me wanting to pitch VMS at a market segment that is lucrative and profitable, I'd focus on security. But you better have all your ducks in a row, take a wrong step in that arena and your name is mud. VMS already has some good traction with it's name (I'm not going to debate if it still deserves that name, my understanding after having done a few security courses is no)

I'm surprised ikea is happy with the amount of information they give out on it's IT operations but that's just me being a 'secret squirrel' I guess

[Jan-Erik Soderholm]

Den 2017-01-31 kl. 10:32, skrev IanD:
> On Tuesday, January 31, 2017 at 9:42:51 AM UTC+11, Jan-Erik Soderholm
> wrote:
>> Hi.
>>
>> I just found my notes from the IKEA/VSI event last Novemeber and there
>> was a few additional points that might interest someone...
>>
>> IKEA: 374 stores. Each with an rs2800 (mixed i2 and i4). D2700 storage
>> (25 x 2.5" disk shelf). One "disaster recovery" since 1987. That store
>> is currently run remotely from the central data center. "The going
>> back to local system is nearly as much of an issue as the original
>> disaster recovery was". It's an US store that runs remotely from
>> Sweden. User side of the store system is available in 20 local
>> languages. Number of store grows with 10 % a year. So that is the
>> number of new local VMS systems planed, configured and deployed each
>> year. Handles nearly all parts of the daily IKEA supermarket
>> operations. One comment was that DECnet has been completely shut down
>> all over.
>>
>> Some notes from the presentation from Johan Gedda (presented by HP
>> Connect as "main owner of and investor in VSI": Approx $40 spent on
>> the x86-64 port so far. Expected approx an additional $15 to finish
>> the port. (This was nov-2016). Now, if I heard right and got the
>> figures correct... :-) USPS and Indian railway was mentioned as (I
>> guess) larger customers. Doesn't expect VMS to compete head-to-head on
>> the general computing market where Linux and Windows more or less
>> "owns" the market. Are looking for niche markets where VMS can show it
>> strengths. The university/education area was mentioned. No reason to
>> drag Itanium boxes there, no interest, waiting for the X86-64 port.
>> VSI as a company "works" in many ways like Rocket Software. A high
>> probability for a subscription based licensing for VMS on x86-64.
>>
>> Hope it can be of any interest...
>>
>> Jan-Erik.
>
> Very interesting indeed
>
> Not attempting to compete with linux / windows is sensible, let them
> fight it out until they reach equilibrium
>
> Sadly, this also tells me that VMS is most likely be pitched at a cost
> outside of my budget :-( and on hardware that I doubt is commodity
> based within my skimpy budget
>
> University / education! This is surprising. It was once there but greed
> took over
>
> Universities want everything for free, I can't see this as profitable
> unless your going to somehow coerce all those no money students to knock
> out free code on VMS again like many years ago. The development
> environment is going to need to be radically modernised before that
> happens.

That is, as I understood, the target for the new VSI group formed
in Sweden. To look at new modern development tools and environments.
It was mentioned that a group of newly graduated from the Technical
High School of Stockholm had already been hired. We'll see...

>
> Education is moving rapidly into the enterprise sized scale. Students
> for life is where they are heading
>
> If it was me wanting to pitch VMS at a market segment that is lucrative
> and profitable, I'd focus on security.

One of the "niche" segments mentioned was large building security and
control. Such as passage control, environment and survailance.


> But you better have all your
> ducks in a row, take a wrong step in that arena and your name is mud.
> VMS already has some good traction with it's name (I'm not going to
> debate if it still deserves that name, my understanding after having
> done a few security courses is no)
>
> I'm surprised ikea is happy with the amount of information they give out
> on it's IT operations but that's just me being a 'secret squirrel' I
> guess
>

There was no NDA. And they seems quite happy to talk about their
success-story. :-) The offices at the IT HQ is a bit like what you
see at such places as Google. No fixed workplaces. No "walls". You
move around from one week another to sit with different people
depending in what you currently are working on. Looked nice...

And still one single family (Kamprad) at the top of everything.
Note that IKEA is not a public company ("Inc"), it is fully owned
and controled by the Kamprad family.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingvar_Kamprad

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA
(That page says "392 stores", at the november meeting it was 374...)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stichting_INGKA_Foundation

[Henry Crun]

On 31-Jan-2017 12:40, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
> Den 2017-01-31 kl. 10:32, skrev IanD:
>> On Tuesday, January 31, 2017 at 9:42:51 AM UTC+11, Jan-Erik Soderholm
>> wrote:
>>> Hi.
>>>
>>> I just found my notes from the IKEA/VSI event last Novemeber and there
>>> was a few additional points that might interest someone...
>>>
>>> IKEA: 374 stores. Each with an rs2800 (mixed i2 and i4). D2700 storage
>>> (25 x 2.5" disk shelf). One "disaster recovery" since 1987. That store
>>> is currently run remotely from the central data center. "The going
>>> back to local system is nearly as much of an issue as the original
>>> disaster recovery was". It's an US store that runs remotely from
>>> Sweden. User side of the store system is available in 20 local
>>> languages. Number of store grows with 10 % a year. So that is the
>>> number of new local VMS systems planed, configured and deployed each
>>> year. Handles nearly all parts of the daily IKEA supermarket
>>> operations. One comment was that DECnet has been completely shut down
>>> all over.
>>>
>>> Some notes from the presentation from Johan Gedda (presented by HP
>>> Connect as "main owner of and investor in VSI": Approx $40 spent on
>>> the x86-64 port so far. Expected approx an additional $15 to finish
>>> the port. (This was nov-2016). Now, if I heard right and got the
>>> figures correct... :-) USPS and Indian railway was mentioned as (I
>>> guess) larger customers. Doesn't expect VMS to compete head-to-head on
>>> the general computing market where Linux and Windows more or less
>>> "owns" the market. Are looking for niche markets where VMS can show it
>>> strengths. The university/education area was mentioned. No reason to
>>> drag Itanium boxes there, no interest, waiting for the X86-64 port.
>>> VSI as a company "works" in many ways like Rocket Software. A high
>>> probability for a subscription based licensing for VMS on x86-64.
>>>
>>> Hope it can be of any interest...
>>>
>>> Jan-Erik.
>>
>> Very interesting indeed
>>
>> Not attempting to compete with linux / windows is sensible, let them
>> fight it out until they reach equilibrium
>>
>> Sadly, this also tells me that VMS is most likely be pitched at a cost
>> outside of my budget :-( and on hardware that I doubt is commodity
>> based within my skimpy budget
>>
>> University / education! This is surprising. It was once there but greed
>> took over
>>
>> Universities want everything for free, I can't see this as profitable
>> unless your going to somehow coerce all those no money students to knock
>> out free code on VMS again like many years ago. The development
>> environment is going to need to be radically modernised before that
>> happens.
>
> That is, as I understood, the target for the new VSI group formed
> in Sweden. To look at new modern development tools and environments.
> It was mentioned that a group of newly graduated from the Technical
> High School of Stockholm had already been hired. We'll see...
>
>>
>> Education is moving rapidly into the enterprise sized scale. Students
>> for life is where they are heading
>>
>> If it was me wanting to pitch VMS at a market segment that is lucrative
>> and profitable, I'd focus on security.
>
> One of the "niche" segments mentioned was large building security and
> control. Such as passage control, environment and survailance.
>
>
>> But you better have all your
>> ducks in a row, take a wrong step in that arena and your name is mud.
>> VMS already has some good traction with it's name (I'm not going to
>> debate if it still deserves that name, my understanding after having
>> done a few security courses is no)
>>
>> I'm surprised ikea is happy with the amount of information they give out
>> on it's IT operations but that's just me being a 'secret squirrel' I
>> guess
>>
>
> There was no NDA. And they seems quite happy to talk about their
> success-story. :-) The offices at the IT HQ is a bit like what you
> see at such places as Google. No fixed workplaces. No "walls". You
> move around from one week another to sit with different people
> depending in what you currently are working on. Looked nice...
>
> And still one single family (Kamprad) at the top of everything.
> Note that IKEA is not a public company ("Inc"), it is fully owned
> and controled by the Kamprad family.
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingvar_Kamprad
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA
> (That page says "392 stores", at the november meeting it was 374...)
>
> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stichting_INGKA_Foundation
>

On a semi-off-topic note, Google for "Kamprad nazi"

--
Mike R.
Home: http://alpha.mike-r.com/
QOTD: http://alpha.mike-r.com/qotd.php
No Micro$oft products were used in the URLs above, or in preparing this message.
Recommended reading: http://www.catb.org/~esr/faqs/smart-questions.html#before
and: http://alpha.mike-r.com/jargon/T/top-post.html
Missile address: N31.7624/E34.9691

[Jan-Erik Soderholm]

Den 2017-01-31 kl. 12:36, skrev Henry Crun:
> On 31-Jan-2017 12:40, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:
>> Den 2017-01-31 kl. 10:32, skrev IanD:
>>> On Tuesday, January 31, 2017 at 9:42:51 AM UTC+11, Jan-Erik Soderholm
>>> wrote:
>>>> Hi.
>>>>
>>>> I just found my notes from the IKEA/VSI event last Novemeber and there
>>>> was a few additional points that might interest someone...
>>>>
>>>> IKEA: 374 stores. Each with an rs2800 (mixed i2 and i4). D2700 storage
>>>> (25 x 2.5" disk shelf). One "disaster recovery" since 1987. That store
>>>> is currently run remotely from the central data center. "The going
>>>> back to local system is nearly as much of an issue as the original
>>>> disaster recovery was". It's an US store that runs remotely from
>>>> Sweden. User side of the store system is available in 20 local
>>>> languages. Number of store grows with 10 % a year. So that is the
>>>> number of new local VMS systems planed, configured and deployed each
>>>> year. Handles nearly all parts of the daily IKEA supermarket
>>>> operations. One comment was that DECnet has been completely shut down
>>>> all over.
>>>>
>>>> Some notes from the presentation from Johan Gedda (presented by HP
>>>> Connect as "main owner of and investor in VSI": Approx $40 spent on
>>>> the x86-64 port so far. Expected approx an additional $15 to finish
>>>> the port. (This was nov-2016). Now, if I heard right and got the
>>>> figures correct... :-) USPS and Indian railway was mentioned as (I
>>>> guess) larger customers. Doesn't expect VMS to compete head-to-head on
>>>> the general computing market where Linux and Windows more or less
>>>> "owns" the market. Are looking for niche markets where VMS can show it
>>>> strengths. The university/education area was mentioned. No reason to
>>>> drag Itanium boxes there, no interest, waiting for the X86-64 port.
>>>> VSI as a company "works" in many ways like Rocket Software. A high
>>>> probability for a subscription based licensing for VMS on x86-64.
>>>>
>>>> Hope it can be of any interest...
>>>>
>>>> Jan-Erik.
>>>
>>> Very interesting indeed
>>>
>>> Not attempting to compete with linux / windows is sensible, let them
>>> fight it out until they reach equilibrium
>>>
>>> Sadly, this also tells me that VMS is most likely be pitched at a cost
>>> outside of my budget :-( and on hardware that I doubt is commodity
>>> based within my skimpy budget
>>>
>>> University / education! This is surprising. It was once there but greed
>>> took over
>>>
>>> Universities want everything for free, I can't see this as profitable
>>> unless your going to somehow coerce all those no money students to knock
>>> out free code on VMS again like many years ago. The development
>>> environment is going to need to be radically modernised before that
>>> happens.
>>
>> That is, as I understood, the target for the new VSI group formed
>> in Sweden. To look at new modern development tools and environments.
>> It was mentioned that a group of newly graduated from the Technical
>> High School of Stockholm had already been hired. We'll see...
>>
>>>
>>> Education is moving rapidly into the enterprise sized scale. Students
>>> for life is where they are heading
>>>
>>> If it was me wanting to pitch VMS at a market segment that is lucrative
>>> and profitable, I'd focus on security.
>>
>> One of the "niche" segments mentioned was large building security and
>> control. Such as passage control, environment and survailance.
>>
>>
>>> But you better have all your
>>> ducks in a row, take a wrong step in that arena and your name is mud.
>>> VMS already has some good traction with it's name (I'm not going to
>>> debate if it still deserves that name, my understanding after having
>>> done a few security courses is no)
>>>
>>> I'm surprised ikea is happy with the amount of information they give out
>>> on it's IT operations but that's just me being a 'secret squirrel' I
>>> guess
>>>
>>
>> There was no NDA. And they seems quite happy to talk about their
>> success-story. :-) The offices at the IT HQ is a bit like what you
>> see at such places as Google. No fixed workplaces. No "walls". You
>> move around from one week another to sit with different people
>> depending in what you currently are working on. Looked nice...
>>
>> And still one single family (Kamprad) at the top of everything.
>> Note that IKEA is not a public company ("Inc"), it is fully owned
>> and controled by the Kamprad family.
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingvar_Kamprad
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IKEA
>> (That page says "392 stores", at the november meeting it was 374...)
>>
>> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Stichting_INGKA_Foundation
>>
>
> On a semi-off-topic note, Google for "Kamprad nazi"
>

Yes, that is covered in the first link above.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ingvar_Kamprad#Fascist_involvement

Not particular exceptionally for beeing in the European 30-40's.

[Phillip Helbig (undress to reply)]

In article <ce96md-***@Ubuntu.mike-r.com>, Henry Crun
<***@rechtman.com> writes:

> On a semi-off-topic note, Google for "Kamprad nazi"

Yes, and he has regretted his one-time fascination. Whether that is
believable, you decide. But if people are always judged on thoughts
they had while young, then there is no advantage to them to ever change
those thoughts.

I believe that Ingmar Bergman also once expressed admiration for Hitler
(before the War).

Note that Anne Frank's family was not allowed to flee to the US because
the country didn't want any more Jews.

[David Froble]

Phillip Helbig (undress to reply) wrote:
> In article <ce96md-***@Ubuntu.mike-r.com>, Henry Crun
> <***@rechtman.com> writes:
>
>> On a semi-off-topic note, Google for "Kamprad nazi"
>
> Yes, and he has regretted his one-time fascination. Whether that is
> believable, you decide. But if people are always judged on thoughts
> they had while young, then there is no advantage to them to ever change
> those thoughts.
>
> I believe that Ingmar Bergman also once expressed admiration for Hitler
> (before the War).
>
> Note that Anne Frank's family was not allowed to flee to the US because
> the country didn't want any more Jews.
>

But .. but .. how can that be? Donald wasn't president then ....

[IanD]

On Tuesday, January 31, 2017 at 9:40:37 PM UTC+11, Jan-Erik Soderholm wrote:

<snip>

> That is, as I understood, the target for the new VSI group formed
> in Sweden. To look at new modern development tools and environments.
> It was mentioned that a group of newly graduated from the Technical
> High School of Stockholm had already been hired. We'll see...
>

I think a major ramping up and focus on open source is going to be needed here to turn the heads of graduates towards VMS

> One of the "niche" segments mentioned was large building security and
> control. Such as passage control, environment and survailance.
>

That's my bad wording

By security I mean focusing on tightening VMS security and selling that aspect of it

> > But you better have all your
> > ducks in a row, take a wrong step in that arena and your name is mud.

On Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 9:33:44 AM UTC+11, ***@gmail.com wrote:
> To clarify a couple things, at least from my perspective.....
>
> The statement in the beginning was "we have no plans to do Alpha releases" and we did not. I was definitely against doing it just for the hell of it. Customers kept contacting us that they wanted to get support from VSI and the only way for that to happen is to be on a release from VSI. Hence our Alpha release. These customers span a wide range - from a couple DS10s to multiple GS1280s. For those Boot Camp attendees you will probably remember that while we had no plans for an Alpha release I said we would continue to make sure that we did not intentionally break the Alpha build. (Never say never.) Now we get to see if it makes any money.
>

Well already this is a significant difference to HP's handling of VMS where it just didn't bother to listen anymore - this is not just VSI nodding but actually doing the opposite to what was first envisioned (no Alpha to Alpha!)

> I don't know what an "open project" is but we always planned to do a regular State of the Port once we had something reasonable to convey. There is a fair amount of detail in there. Will you be seeing the project file or minutes from our weekly meeting? Not likely.

3 monthly updates is timely enough to make the progress tangible to those outside the inner workings and who, like myself, are fairly ignorant of what's really involved

Sure, I would like updates more than 3 months apart but waiting 3 months between release statements means the amount of information being relayed gives more of an appreciation of the vast amount of work that is being done. Too frequent and it diminishes the effort that's being put in

Having an overall % completion might do the same as well and the complexity of each area would quickly get lost

I like reading in depth some of the ideas being worked on as it shows the pruning process that went on and how decisions about effort versus reward were made with the hiatus of time to get a finished product out the door always present

[Simon Clubley]

On 2017-01-30, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-***@telia.com> wrote:
>
> Some notes from the presentation from Johan Gedda (presented
> by HP Connect as "main owner of and investor in VSI":
> Approx $40 spent on the x86-64 port so far. Expected approx an
> additional $15 to finish the port. (This was nov-2016).

[I saw your later correction about this being $40 and $15 USD million.]

Given what we know about the size of VSI those numbers seem a little
on the high side by about 4-5 times at least. However, let's assume
they are accurate.

Since you have to recoup the investment from the profits on the income
and not on the income itself, those values indicate there is still a
seriously large VMS user base out there and which is far bigger than
I thought it was.

As such, I now seriously question the level of advertising which has
apparently been done by VSI so far.

We know that VSI have been talking directly to the large customers which
is really good, but what about all the smaller customers out there ?

I hope VSI isn't planning to wait until after the port is complete to
start the advertising because it's going to be way too late by then.
There needs to be an advertising plan _now_ to build up general
knowledge and interest/excitement in the coming VMS on x86-64 port.

By now, VSI should have actively notified all the existing customers
it can find that VMS is coming to x86-64 so that this information can
be incorporated into those customers migration plans.

One specific example: By now, VSI should have sent a letter to every
single VMS customer with a HPE support contract, regardless of size,
telling them about the plans for VMS on x86-64. If they have not done
this by now, then VSI have _seriously_ dropped the ball.

If HPE have lists of customers with lapsed service contracts which
have lapsed in the last several years, then those customers should
have been notified as well.

As for anyone asking why VSI should have access to those lists, then
access to those lists (even if the letter has to be sent via HPE
for confidentiality reasons) should have been part of the initial
contract negotiations.

As for the general advertising plan, this is needed to catch all
the other potential VMS customers without a current HPE support
contract or those who have reluctantly abandoned VMS for various
reasons.

If current customers don't know about VMS on x86-64, they are only
going to see the several years remaining before IA-64 VMS becomes
unsupported and will be making active migration plans away from what
they think is a dead operating system.

If they find out about VMS on x86-64 in a year or two, it's going to
be _way_ too late for many of them to change course and VSI will have
lost multiple income opportunities.

Hell, for an advertising campaign, you don't even need to do more than
print adverts with a picture of what is obviously an x86-64 server box
with the words "OpenVMS is coming..." printed over it along with VSI's
website address.

You don't have to be fancy at this stage, you just need to let people
know that VMS is not dead and you need to be doing it _now_ especially
if you have the above number of still existing VMS customers.

>
> Hope it can be of any interest...
>

It was very interesting. Thanks, Jan-Erik.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world

[David Froble]

Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2017-01-30, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-***@telia.com> wrote:
>> Some notes from the presentation from Johan Gedda (presented
>> by HP Connect as "main owner of and investor in VSI":
>> Approx $40 spent on the x86-64 port so far. Expected approx an
>> additional $15 to finish the port. (This was nov-2016).
>
> [I saw your later correction about this being $40 and $15 USD million.]
>
> Given what we know about the size of VSI those numbers seem a little
> on the high side by about 4-5 times at least. However, let's assume
> they are accurate.
>
> Since you have to recoup the investment from the profits on the income
> and not on the income itself, those values indicate there is still a
> seriously large VMS user base out there and which is far bigger than
> I thought it was.

So, you been listening to the nay-sayers, huh?

> As such, I now seriously question the level of advertising which has
> apparently been done by VSI so far.

Well, advertising isn't cheap. Got to be careful where you're spending your money.

> We know that VSI have been talking directly to the large customers which
> is really good, but what about all the smaller customers out there ?

After you define "large" and "small", I'd say that some portion of current VMS
users stick their noses into c.o.v now and then, and the info definitely is
available there.

> I hope VSI isn't planning to wait until after the port is complete to
> start the advertising because it's going to be way too late by then.
> There needs to be an advertising plan _now_ to build up general
> knowledge and interest/excitement in the coming VMS on x86-64 port.

I don't understand this fascination with "too late". It's never "too late".
While there may be some who make a decision and won't consider reversing it,
that's just ego.

Back when VSI began, several things were mentioned.

People asked about new releases for Alpha, and even VAX. The statement at the
time was something like "we will not be doing new Alpha versions". I can
understand not squandering limited resources. But VSI has shown that they will
listen to their customers. That is good. And there must have been plenty of
customer feedback, not just a few.

I suggested that VSI do an "open port", basically giving those interested in VMS
"general knowledge and interest/excitement in the coming VMS on x86-64 port".
At first Clair wasn't enamored with the concept. But now we have quarterly
reports on the "state of the port". So I see flexibility and willingness to
listen to customers, and I see efforts to keep those interested in VMS informed.
That's marketing.

> By now, VSI should have actively notified all the existing customers
> it can find that VMS is coming to x86-64 so that this information can
> be incorporated into those customers migration plans.

Seems to me, based upon reaction to customer feedback, that VSI is reaching out
to customers, or, those customers have tracked them down and informed VSI of
their desires.

> One specific example: By now, VSI should have sent a letter to every
> single VMS customer with a HPE support contract, regardless of size,
> telling them about the plans for VMS on x86-64. If they have not done
> this by now, then VSI have _seriously_ dropped the ball.
>
> If HPE have lists of customers with lapsed service contracts which
> have lapsed in the last several years, then those customers should
> have been notified as well.
>
> As for anyone asking why VSI should have access to those lists, then
> access to those lists (even if the letter has to be sent via HPE
> for confidentiality reasons) should have been part of the initial
> contract negotiations.
>
> As for the general advertising plan, this is needed to catch all
> the other potential VMS customers without a current HPE support
> contract or those who have reluctantly abandoned VMS for various
> reasons.
>
> If current customers don't know about VMS on x86-64, they are only
> going to see the several years remaining before IA-64 VMS becomes
> unsupported and will be making active migration plans away from what
> they think is a dead operating system.
>
> If they find out about VMS on x86-64 in a year or two, it's going to
> be _way_ too late for many of them to change course and VSI will have
> lost multiple income opportunities.
>
> Hell, for an advertising campaign, you don't even need to do more than
> print adverts with a picture of what is obviously an x86-64 server box
> with the words "OpenVMS is coming..." printed over it along with VSI's
> website address.
>
> You don't have to be fancy at this stage, you just need to let people
> know that VMS is not dead and you need to be doing it _now_ especially
> if you have the above number of still existing VMS customers.

Don't get all upset, just because you're not running VSI's marketing department.

:-)

[Simon Clubley]

On 2017-01-31, David Froble <***@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
> Simon Clubley wrote:
>> As such, I now seriously question the level of advertising which has
>> apparently been done by VSI so far.
>
> Well, advertising isn't cheap. Got to be careful where you're spending your money.
>

When you are investing many US$ millions on a port (assuming Jan-Erik's
figures are accurate), you should spend quite a bit of money trying
to make sure your investment pays off by making people aware of what
you are doing.

>> We know that VSI have been talking directly to the large customers which
>> is really good, but what about all the smaller customers out there ?
>
> After you define "large" and "small", I'd say that some portion of current VMS
> users stick their noses into c.o.v now and then, and the info definitely is
> available there.
>

I wonder if VSI should invest in a small experimental Adwords campaign
to see if they get more customer contacts from that and then maybe
expand it if the small experiment proves to be cost effective.

>> I hope VSI isn't planning to wait until after the port is complete to
>> start the advertising because it's going to be way too late by then.
>> There needs to be an advertising plan _now_ to build up general
>> knowledge and interest/excitement in the coming VMS on x86-64 port.
>
> I don't understand this fascination with "too late". It's never "too late".
> While there may be some who make a decision and won't consider reversing it,
> that's just ego.
>

It's nothing to do with ego.

What happens if you find out about VSI after you are half way through
moving from VMS to another environment ?

You are already committed to that move so yes, it most certainly can
be too late.

The closer the final support deadline approaches for IA-64, the greater
the number of people who will be moving away from VMS and who will be
sufficiently along with the move that it's simply no longer viable for
them to consider the VSI option.

>
> Don't get all upset, just because you're not running VSI's marketing department.
>

It's probably best if I don't respond to that.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world

[David Froble]

Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2017-01-31, David Froble <***@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>> Simon Clubley wrote:
>>> As such, I now seriously question the level of advertising which has
>>> apparently been done by VSI so far.
>> Well, advertising isn't cheap. Got to be careful where you're spending your money.
>>
>
> When you are investing many US$ millions on a port (assuming Jan-Erik's
> figures are accurate), you should spend quite a bit of money trying
> to make sure your investment pays off by making people aware of what
> you are doing.
>
>>> We know that VSI have been talking directly to the large customers which
>>> is really good, but what about all the smaller customers out there ?
>> After you define "large" and "small", I'd say that some portion of current VMS
>> users stick their noses into c.o.v now and then, and the info definitely is
>> available there.
>>
>
> I wonder if VSI should invest in a small experimental Adwords campaign
> to see if they get more customer contacts from that and then maybe
> expand it if the small experiment proves to be cost effective.
>
>>> I hope VSI isn't planning to wait until after the port is complete to
>>> start the advertising because it's going to be way too late by then.
>>> There needs to be an advertising plan _now_ to build up general
>>> knowledge and interest/excitement in the coming VMS on x86-64 port.
>> I don't understand this fascination with "too late". It's never "too late".
>> While there may be some who make a decision and won't consider reversing it,
>> that's just ego.
>>
>
> It's nothing to do with ego.
>
> What happens if you find out about VSI after you are half way through
> moving from VMS to another environment ?

What if you're aware that even with a port, you'd still be better off on VMS, if
it was feasible? Perhaps the money spent on "half way through" is lost, but is
it wise to spend the other half if you determine you'd be better off staying on
VMS? Might even save a few dollars too.

> You are already committed to that move so yes, it most certainly can
> be too late.

Define committed. If you still have the option to not turn off the VMS
solution, and you determine that you're better off by not doing so, then just
what says that option cannot be taken.

What if you're on you new port, VMS solution having been turned off, and you
feel the new solution is inferior to the VMS solution? How much harder would it
be to return to the VMS solution, than it was to move from it?

If anyone is in the situations I've described, and refuses to select the
"better" (for definitions of better) solution, then yes, it's entirely ego
driven. The phrase "shooting yourself in the foot" comes to mind.

That written, I'll also allow that if the non-VMS solution is better, then you'd
be crazy to not go with it.

> The closer the final support deadline approaches for IA-64, the greater
> the number of people who will be moving away from VMS and who will be
> sufficiently along with the move that it's simply no longer viable for
> them to consider the VSI option.
>
>> Don't get all upset, just because you're not running VSI's marketing department.
>>
>
> It's probably best if I don't respond to that.
>
> Simon.
>

[c***@gmail.com]

To clarify a couple things, at least from my perspective.....

The statement in the beginning was "we have no plans to do Alpha releases" and we did not. I was definitely against doing it just for the hell of it. Customers kept contacting us that they wanted to get support from VSI and the only way for that to happen is to be on a release from VSI. Hence our Alpha release. These customers span a wide range - from a couple DS10s to multiple GS1280s. For those Boot Camp attendees you will probably remember that while we had no plans for an Alpha release I said we would continue to make sure that we did not intentionally break the Alpha build. (Never say never.) Now we get to see if it makes any money.

I don't know what an "open project" is but we always planned to do a regular State of the Port once we had something reasonable to convey. There is a fair amount of detail in there. Will you be seeing the project file or minutes from our weekly meeting? Not likely.

[David Froble]

***@gmail.com wrote:
> To clarify a couple things, at least from my perspective.....
>
> The statement in the beginning was "we have no plans to do Alpha releases"
> and we did not. I was definitely against doing it just for the hell of it.
> Customers kept contacting us that they wanted to get support from VSI and the
> only way for that to happen is to be on a release from VSI. Hence our Alpha
> release. These customers span a wide range - from a couple DS10s to multiple
> GS1280s. For those Boot Camp attendees you will probably remember that while
> we had no plans for an Alpha release I said we would continue to make sure
> that we did not intentionally break the Alpha build. (Never say never.) Now
> we get to see if it makes any money.
>
> I don't know what an "open project" is but we always planned to do a regular
> State of the Port once we had something reasonable to convey. There is a fair
> amount of detail in there. Will you be seeing the project file or minutes
> from our weekly meeting? Not likely.

The concept, from my perspective, was always something to keep interest alive
while the work was going on. Weekly updates? Probably more than most want to
know. But, I'm betting that you're aware that your updates are keeping the
interest alive, and that it's a form of marketing.

I guess it's how we each interpreted "open project".

You got some people drooling, waiting for a chance to put VMS on an x86. Just
what you wanted.

[Craig A. Berry]

On 1/31/17 12:32 PM, Simon Clubley wrote:

> When you are investing many US$ millions on a port (assuming Jan-Erik's
> figures are accurate), you should spend quite a bit of money trying
> to make sure your investment pays off by making people aware of what
> you are doing.

Or even some buttons on the web page labeled "Switch to VSI" or "Where
to Buy" or "What you get with your VSI license" and other things people
willing to exchange money for software might be interested in.
Determined people who already know what they want and have experience
buying from DEC/Compaq/HP will likely manage to get it. But folks who
have disconnected from HP simply won't know it's possible.

[Kerry Main]

> -----Original Message-----
> From: Info-vax [mailto:info-vax-***@rbnsn.com] On Behalf Of
> Simon Clubley via Info-vax
> Sent: January 31, 2017 9:05 AM
> To: info-***@rbnsn.com
> Cc: Simon Clubley <***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP>
> Subject: [Info-vax] VSI and VMS advertising, was: Re: Some
additional
> notes from IKEA/VSI event.
>
> On 2017-01-30, Jan-Erik Soderholm <jan-***@telia.com>
> wrote:
> >
> > Some notes from the presentation from Johan Gedda (presented by
> HP
> > Connect as "main owner of and investor in VSI":
> > Approx $40 spent on the x86-64 port so far. Expected approx an
> > additional $15 to finish the port. (This was nov-2016).
>
> [I saw your later correction about this being $40 and $15 USD
million.]
>
> Given what we know about the size of VSI those numbers seem a little
> on the high side by about 4-5 times at least. However, let's assume
> they are accurate.
>
> Since you have to recoup the investment from the profits on the
> income and not on the income itself, those values indicate there is
still
> a seriously large VMS user base out there and which is far bigger
than I
> thought it was.
>
> As such, I now seriously question the level of advertising which has
> apparently been done by VSI so far.
>
> We know that VSI have been talking directly to the large customers
> which is really good, but what about all the smaller customers out
> there ?
>
> I hope VSI isn't planning to wait until after the port is complete
to start
> the advertising because it's going to be way too late by then.
> There needs to be an advertising plan _now_ to build up general
> knowledge and interest/excitement in the coming VMS on x86-64
> port.
>
> By now, VSI should have actively notified all the existing customers
it
> can find that VMS is coming to x86-64 so that this information can
be
> incorporated into those customers migration plans.
>
> One specific example: By now, VSI should have sent a letter to every
> single VMS customer with a HPE support contract, regardless of size,
> telling them about the plans for VMS on x86-64. If they have not
done
> this by now, then VSI have _seriously_ dropped the ball.
>
> If HPE have lists of customers with lapsed service contracts which
have
> lapsed in the last several years, then those customers should have
> been notified as well.
>

I fully agree more marketing is required, but to correct a common
misconception here - HPE does not have anywhere near accurate lists
for any of its enterprise OS's. The same can likely be stated for
their other products as well.

Over the DEC-Compaq-HP years, they went through at least 10 different
Regional call handling / contract systems WW. With each conversion to
a new system, if a Cust was not on contract, they were typically
dropped from the new system - regardless whether they were still using
those systems or not.

In addition, many OpenVMS solutions were sold via partners who wanted
to remain the Cust's primary point of contact so the Cust info was not
passed back to HP.

Hence, when HP talks about the OpenVMS base being around 20,000 WW,
they are talking only about those they know about.

The OpenVMS Cust base WW is much higher than official numbers from
HPE. The challenge VSI has is re-engaging those Customers who are
still running OpenVMS, but who were essentially abandoned by
DEC/Compaq/HP/HPE.

[snip...]


Regards,

Kerry Main
Kerry dot main at starkgaming dot com

[Scott Dorsey]

Kerry Main <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
>The OpenVMS Cust base WW is much higher than official numbers from
>HPE. The challenge VSI has is re-engaging those Customers who are
>still running OpenVMS, but who were essentially abandoned by
>DEC/Compaq/HP/HPE.

The first challenge is actually _locating_ those customers. And, because
many of those customers are planning to transition to some other OS, the
second challenge is to engage with those customers in time to intervene
and prevent that from happening.

How do you find those people? The days of setting up a booth at DECUS
or COMDEX and letting them find you are long gone. I don't know the answer
to the question but I am hoping VSI does.
--scott

--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[David Froble]

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Kerry Main <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The OpenVMS Cust base WW is much higher than official numbers from
>> HPE. The challenge VSI has is re-engaging those Customers who are
>> still running OpenVMS, but who were essentially abandoned by
>> DEC/Compaq/HP/HPE.
>
> The first challenge is actually _locating_ those customers. And, because
> many of those customers are planning to transition to some other OS, the
> second challenge is to engage with those customers in time to intervene
> and prevent that from happening.

Is there any data supporting this, or is this just a WAG?

[Scott Dorsey]

David Froble <***@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> Kerry Main <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> The OpenVMS Cust base WW is much higher than official numbers from
>>> HPE. The challenge VSI has is re-engaging those Customers who are
>>> still running OpenVMS, but who were essentially abandoned by
>>> DEC/Compaq/HP/HPE.
>>
>> The first challenge is actually _locating_ those customers. And, because
>> many of those customers are planning to transition to some other OS, the
>> second challenge is to engage with those customers in time to intervene
>> and prevent that from happening.
>
>Is there any data supporting this, or is this just a WAG?

That is a WAG, but it's one based on my customers, combined with the basic
progression of the user base over the past two decades.
--scott
--
"C'est un Nagra. C'est suisse, et tres, tres precis."

[David Froble]

Scott Dorsey wrote:
> David Froble <***@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>> Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>> Kerry Main <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>> The OpenVMS Cust base WW is much higher than official numbers from
>>>> HPE. The challenge VSI has is re-engaging those Customers who are
>>>> still running OpenVMS, but who were essentially abandoned by
>>>> DEC/Compaq/HP/HPE.
>>> The first challenge is actually _locating_ those customers. And, because
>>> many of those customers are planning to transition to some other OS, the
>>> second challenge is to engage with those customers in time to intervene
>>> and prevent that from happening.
>> Is there any data supporting this, or is this just a WAG?
>
> That is a WAG, but it's one based on my customers, combined with the basic
> progression of the user base over the past two decades.
> --scott

What I've noticed is that the "local" trend for some people causes them to
figure that's what is happening everywhere. But it's not the same everywhere.
For just one example, Jan-Erik's discussion of VMS users in Sweden might cause
some to think VMS has a bright future. Then Ian's seeing VMS going away in his
environment causes him to think it's doing the same everywhere.

Are the heady days of the VAX coming back? Don't think so. Neither do I think
it's so easy to move away from VMS for some users. Yes, those who used a
MicroVAX II to provide word processing services could easily move on, and
rightly so. WP on a VMS system happened because there wasn't anything better.
That's not the case now. That's just one example. The embedded market is another.

But there are other users who just don't have an easy path away from VMS, and so
you have emulators running their VAX based applications. This is a desperation
move.

Then there are the doomsayers. "The sky is falling, we HAVE to do something."
The folks who ported away from VMS 10-20 years ago because they believed it had
no future, even thought VMS was a good solution for them, sure wasted a lot of
money, didn't they?

Nor is everything Ok. Want to ruin my day, just mention SSL. VMS has been
neglected, and that must change. While it's not clear what new features might
attract new users, such are needed. Not just by VMS, but any product that
expects to continue needs to compete.

[Jan-Erik Soderholm]

Den 2017-02-01 kl. 18:21, skrev David Froble:
> Scott Dorsey wrote:
>> David Froble <***@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>>> Scott Dorsey wrote:
>>>> Kerry Main <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>>>> The OpenVMS Cust base WW is much higher than official numbers from
>>>>> HPE. The challenge VSI has is re-engaging those Customers who are
>>>>> still running OpenVMS, but who were essentially abandoned by
>>>>> DEC/Compaq/HP/HPE.
>>>> The first challenge is actually _locating_ those customers. And, because
>>>> many of those customers are planning to transition to some other OS, the
>>>> second challenge is to engage with those customers in time to intervene
>>>> and prevent that from happening.
>>> Is there any data supporting this, or is this just a WAG?
>>
>> That is a WAG, but it's one based on my customers, combined with the basic
>> progression of the user base over the past two decades.
>> --scott
>
> What I've noticed is that the "local" trend for some people causes them to
> figure that's what is happening everywhere. But it's not the same
> everywhere. For just one example, Jan-Erik's discussion of VMS users in
> Sweden might cause some to think VMS has a bright future.

One has to put everyhing in perspective.
"Bright" means different things to different people.
But I'd say "brighter" than 4-5 years ago, yes.

[Simon Clubley]

On 2017-01-31, Scott Dorsey <***@panix.com> wrote:
>
> How do you find those people? The days of setting up a booth at DECUS
> or COMDEX and letting them find you are long gone. I don't know the answer
> to the question but I am hoping VSI does.

I wonder if VSI have tried the Adwords approach to see if they get any
new contacts from people searching for VMS migration solutions.

Have VSI considered putting VMS migration language on their website which
offers their x86-64 port as a migration target ? That way, anyone
searching for VMS migration solutions, may see the VSI webpages included
in the search results.

Right now, the top search result in the UK for "migrating from openvms"
is what appears to be an XDelta website with a passing reference to VSI
only in the initial webpage.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world

[John E. Malmberg]

On 1/31/2017 8:12 PM, Scott Dorsey wrote:
> Kerry Main <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> The OpenVMS Cust base WW is much higher than official numbers from
>> HPE. The challenge VSI has is re-engaging those Customers who are
>> still running OpenVMS, but who were essentially abandoned by
>> DEC/Compaq/HP/HPE.
>
> The first challenge is actually _locating_ those customers. And, because
> many of those customers are planning to transition to some other OS, the
> second challenge is to engage with those customers in time to intervene
> and prevent that from happening.
>
> How do you find those people? The days of setting up a booth at DECUS
> or COMDEX and letting them find you are long gone. I don't know the answer
> to the question but I am hoping VSI does.
> --scott

A visible presence on some of the Open Source projects can bring in
leads. It turns out there is a lot of interest in a Curl that works
with the most up to date OpenSSL for VMS.

Periodically looking at who is trying to hire OpenVMS people is one way
to find potential customers. A once a month scan may show some new
surprises.

People still using VAX/VMS are probably off HP's radar, but may be good
customers for an x86 port.

On indeed.com:

OpenVMS has 31 hits.

VAX jobs has 79 hits, but not all of them VMS programming jobs, but it
looks like the majority of them are.

VMS Programmer has 35 hits, not all of them OpenVMS though.

VAX/VMS has 24 hits.

VAX /VMS has 27 hits. Space is significant.

Alpha/ VMS has 9 hits. Space is significant.

Decnet has 9 hits.

Regards,
-John

[Paul Hardy]

Kerry Main <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> The challenge VSI has is re-engaging those Customers who are
> still running OpenVMS, but who were essentially abandoned by
> DEC/Compaq/HP/HPE.

One good thing that VSI should do urgently, is to update the Wikipedia page
on OpenVMS which currently has no mention of a port to X86-64!

--
Paul at the paulhardy.net domain

[j***@yahoo.co.uk]

On Wednesday, 1 February 2017 10:08:45 UTC, Paul Hardy wrote:
> Kerry Main <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> > The challenge VSI has is re-engaging those Customers who are
> > still running OpenVMS, but who were essentially abandoned by
> > DEC/Compaq/HP/HPE.
>
> One good thing that VSI should do urgently, is to update the Wikipedia page
> on OpenVMS which currently has no mention of a port to X86-64!
>
> --
> Paul at the paulhardy.net domain

Which article are you looking at?

When I look at https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/OpenVMS
I see this text at the end of the first paragraph:
"As of 2015, a port to the X86-64 architecture is
underway (anticipated release in 2018)" (with
references too). Last changed mid January 2017.

Maybe that's not obvious enough, so perhaps a
brief section 1.3 "Porting to x86-64" might be
a useful addition, in addition to the existing
sections on "Port to DEC Alpha" and "Port to
Intel Itanium".

Where else to go public though? And with
what information, and when?

I concur with Kerry that HP/CPQ (and to an
extent DEC before them) didn't really know
who their VMS end users and VMS business
partners (developers, etc) (two separate
but overlapping groups) were/are. Kerry's
on one side of the pond and I'm on the
other. Maybe some countries managed it
better (do all VMS roads lead to Sweden?).

[David Froble]

Paul Hardy wrote:
> Kerry Main <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> The challenge VSI has is re-engaging those Customers who are
>> still running OpenVMS, but who were essentially abandoned by
>> DEC/Compaq/HP/HPE.
>
> One good thing that VSI should do urgently, is to update the Wikipedia page
> on OpenVMS which currently has no mention of a port to X86-64!
>

Perhaps we should not all sit back and wait for someone else (VSI) to do
something. I'd think that the entire VMS community could be helpful. But
that's just my perspective. Others may not agree.

It's my understanding that anybody can contribute to Wikipedia?

[John Reagan]

On Wednesday, February 1, 2017 at 12:26:50 PM UTC-5, David Froble wrote:
> Paul Hardy wrote:
> > Kerry Main <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >> The challenge VSI has is re-engaging those Customers who are
> >> still running OpenVMS, but who were essentially abandoned by
> >> DEC/Compaq/HP/HPE.
> >
> > One good thing that VSI should do urgently, is to update the Wikipedia page
> > on OpenVMS which currently has no mention of a port to X86-64!
> >
>
> Perhaps we should not all sit back and wait for someone else (VSI) to do
> something. I'd think that the entire VMS community could be helpful. But
> that's just my perspective. Others may not agree.
>
> It's my understanding that anybody can contribute to Wikipedia?

There is a small mention near the bottom but it could/should be highlighted more.



"The availability of VSI OpenVMS on x86-based servers is planned for 2018."

[Simon Clubley]

On 2017-01-31, Kerry Main <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I fully agree more marketing is required, but to correct a common
> misconception here - HPE does not have anywhere near accurate lists
> for any of its enterprise OS's. The same can likely be stated for
> their other products as well.
>

Maybe not, but they do know who the current service contract customers
are and every single one of them has hopefully by now received a letter
from VSI telling them about VSI and what VSI are doing with VMS.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world

[Forster, Michael]

I haven't.

Michael Forster
Enterprise Storage and IDX Architect | Information Services
Medical College of Wisconsin
O: [phone] | ***@mcw.edu


________________________________________
From: Info-vax <info-vax-***@rbnsn.com> on behalf of Simon Clubley via Info-vax <info-***@rbnsn.com>
Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 7:21:56 AM
To: info-***@rbnsn.com
Cc: Simon Clubley
Subject: Re: [Info-vax] VSI and VMS advertising, was: Re: Some additional notes from IKEA/VSI event.

On 2017-01-31, Kerry Main <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>
> I fully agree more marketing is required, but to correct a common
> misconception here - HPE does not have anywhere near accurate lists
> for any of its enterprise OS's. The same can likely be stated for
> their other products as well.
>

Maybe not, but they do know who the current service contract customers
are and every single one of them has hopefully by now received a letter
from VSI telling them about VSI and what VSI are doing with VMS.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world

[Simon Clubley]

On 2017-02-13, Forster, Michael <***@mcw.edu> wrote:
> I haven't.
>
> Michael Forster
> Enterprise Storage and IDX Architect | Information Services
> Medical College of Wisconsin
> O: [phone] | ***@mcw.edu
> ________________________________________
> From: Info-vax <info-vax-***@rbnsn.com> on behalf of Simon Clubley via Info-vax <info-***@rbnsn.com>
> Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 7:21:56 AM
> To: info-***@rbnsn.com
> Cc: Simon Clubley
> Subject: Re: [Info-vax] VSI and VMS advertising, was: Re: Some additional notes from IKEA/VSI event.
>
> On 2017-01-31, Kerry Main <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>
>> I fully agree more marketing is required, but to correct a common
>> misconception here - HPE does not have anywhere near accurate lists
>> for any of its enterprise OS's. The same can likely be stated for
>> their other products as well.
>>
>
> Maybe not, but they do know who the current service contract customers
> are and every single one of them has hopefully by now received a letter
> from VSI telling them about VSI and what VSI are doing with VMS.
>
> Simon.
>

Well, it's a very good source of high quality leads so in hindsight
it makes perfect sense that no-one in VSI marketing have done this.

I just automatically assumed that VSI had done this because it's
such an obvious thing to do. I know VSI are contacting the high value
customers, but VSI can't be relying on a few high value customers; they
need to be building a critical mass of all types of customers so they
have more redundancy in their business model as and when the large
customers move away from VMS.

At one time DEC actually understood this as well and their product
lines reflected that understanding.

I wonder what portion of current HP VMS service contract customers
don't even know that VSI actually exists ? Imagine what a simple
letter merely telling them about the existence of VSI could have done
for those customers.

And once again, if the plan is to tell these customers about VSI
when the x86-64 port is complete, then that's way too late because
VSI will have lost customers that they may have otherwise retained.

Kerry's a marketing person. If he's still reading this thread, then
surely he must realise this as well.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world

[Kerry Main]

> From: Info-vax [mailto:info-vax-***@rbnsn.com] On Behalf Of
> Simon Clubley via Info-vax
> Sent: February 14, 2017 8:29 AM
> To: info-***@rbnsn.com
> Cc: Simon Clubley <***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP>
> Subject: Re: [Info-vax] VSI and VMS advertising, was: Re: Some
> additional notes from IKEA/VSI event.
>
> On 2017-02-13, Forster, Michael <***@mcw.edu> wrote:
> > I haven't.
> >
> > Michael Forster
> > Enterprise Storage and IDX Architect | Information Services
Medical
> > College of Wisconsin
> > O: [phone] | ***@mcw.edu
> > ________________________________________
> > From: Info-vax <info-vax-***@rbnsn.com> on behalf of Simon
> Clubley
> > via Info-vax <info-***@rbnsn.com>
> > Sent: Wednesday, February 1, 2017 7:21:56 AM
> > To: info-***@rbnsn.com
> > Cc: Simon Clubley
> > Subject: Re: [Info-vax] VSI and VMS advertising, was: Re: Some
> additional notes from IKEA/VSI event.
> >
> > On 2017-01-31, Kerry Main <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> >>
> >> I fully agree more marketing is required, but to correct a common
> >> misconception here - HPE does not have anywhere near accurate
> lists
> >> for any of its enterprise OS's. The same can likely be stated for
> >> their other products as well.
> >>
> >
> > Maybe not, but they do know who the current service contract
> customers
> > are and every single one of them has hopefully by now received a
> > letter from VSI telling them about VSI and what VSI are doing with
> VMS.
> >
> > Simon.
> >
>
> Well, it's a very good source of high quality leads so in hindsight
it
> makes perfect sense that no-one in VSI marketing have done this.
>
> I just automatically assumed that VSI had done this because it's
such an
> obvious thing to do. I know VSI are contacting the high value
> customers, but VSI can't be relying on a few high value customers;
> they need to be building a critical mass of all types of customers
so
> they have more redundancy in their business model as and when the
> large customers move away from VMS.
>
> At one time DEC actually understood this as well and their product
lines
> reflected that understanding.
>
> I wonder what portion of current HP VMS service contract customers
> don't even know that VSI actually exists ? Imagine what a simple
letter
> merely telling them about the existence of VSI could have done for
> those customers.
>
> And once again, if the plan is to tell these customers about VSI
when
> the x86-64 port is complete, then that's way too late because VSI
will
> have lost customers that they may have otherwise retained.
>
> Kerry's a marketing person. If he's still reading this thread, then
surely
> he must realise this as well.
>
> Simon.
>

Nice try. And don't call me Shirley.

Simon - as you appear to want to be a marketing person, you should
first learn how large companies work.

Lesson #1 - inter-departmental rivalry isn't pretty. Each dept has its
own revenue goals and its every one for themselves.

What makes you think HPE Tech Support wants to provide its Cust list
to another company who's goal it is to get these Cust's to migrate
away from HPE Support?

And thereby reduce HPE's already declining support revenues?

Heck, when I was in HP Consulting, it was almost impossible to get
these HP Cust support lists for any type of initiative.

This is not unique to HPE .. you will find the same type of infighting
in every large company.

Imagine the IBM AIX group giving up their Cust list so another group
or company can migrate them to Linux ...

Regards,

Kerry Main
Kerry dot main at starkgaming dot com

[Simon Clubley]

On 2017-02-14, Kerry Main <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> From: Info-vax [mailto:info-vax-***@rbnsn.com] On Behalf Of
>> Simon Clubley via Info-vax
>> Sent: February 14, 2017 8:29 AM
>> To: info-***@rbnsn.com
>> Cc: Simon Clubley <***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP>
>> Subject: Re: [Info-vax] VSI and VMS advertising, was: Re: Some
>> additional notes from IKEA/VSI event.
>>
>> Well, it's a very good source of high quality leads so in hindsight it
>> makes perfect sense that no-one in VSI marketing have done this.
>>
>> I just automatically assumed that VSI had done this because it's such an
>> obvious thing to do. I know VSI are contacting the high value
>> customers, but VSI can't be relying on a few high value customers;
>> they need to be building a critical mass of all types of customers so
>> they have more redundancy in their business model as and when the
>> large customers move away from VMS.
>>
>> At one time DEC actually understood this as well and their product lines
>> reflected that understanding.
>>
>> I wonder what portion of current HP VMS service contract customers
>> don't even know that VSI actually exists ? Imagine what a simple letter
>> merely telling them about the existence of VSI could have done for
>> those customers.
>>
>> And once again, if the plan is to tell these customers about VSI when
>> the x86-64 port is complete, then that's way too late because VSI will
>> have lost customers that they may have otherwise retained.
>>
>> Kerry's a marketing person. If he's still reading this thread, then surely
>> he must realise this as well.
>>
>> Simon.
>>
>
> Nice try. And don't call me Shirley.
>
> Simon - as you appear to want to be a marketing person, you should
> first learn how large companies work.
>

I am _not_ a marketing person. What I am is someone who wants this
port to succeed and is getting seriously frustrated at seeing
potential opportunity over potential opportunity slipping away from
VSI because of apparent inaction.

Rather than just do general useless whining, I am instead trying to
identify specific issues with VSI's approach and plans and comment on
those specific issues to try and get a constructive discussion going.
If that sounds like me trying to generate marketing ideas for VSI then
so be it.

Oh, and based on their performance around here, VSI have had to be
pushed at every stage in order to promote themselves and to communicate
with people.

Sometimes, I think VSI are acting as if they are still a cog in a
large machine and that there's whole sets of teams around them to do
the marketing and provide product development guidance while they just
focus on the job of building things without having to worry about all
"that other stuff".

Well, they are no longer a cog in a large machine but are instead now
a small company. They _do_ have to worry about this stuff and they
have to worry about it _now_ and not in a couple of years when the
port is complete and it's about time they realise this.

> Lesson #1 - inter-departmental rivalry isn't pretty. Each dept has its
> own revenue goals and its every one for themselves.
>
> What makes you think HPE Tech Support wants to provide its Cust list
> to another company who's goal it is to get these Cust's to migrate
> away from HPE Support?
>

And that's _exactly_ why this should have been part of the initial
contract negotiations. If I, a non-marketing person, can think of
this, then VSI should have done so as well.

If VSI _do_ have access to these lists, either directly or indirectly
via HP then they should have used them by now.

> And thereby reduce HPE's already declining support revenues?
>

Those support revenues will disappear anyway in several years and HP
might actually got _more_ money in if the customers wait for VSI to
complete the port instead of porting away from VMS _now_.

> Heck, when I was in HP Consulting, it was almost impossible to get
> these HP Cust support lists for any type of initiative.
>

This should have been a C-level to C-level discussion (which is
where I assume the contract negotiations took place) and not a lower
level manager discussion.

Oh, and DEC have done this before. During the transition from VAX
to Alpha, DEC decided they would no longer supply a Dibol compiler.
A third party vendor did supply such a compiler and DEC formally wrote
to every VAX Dibol support customer to tell them about this.

Guess how I know this ?

> This is not unique to HPE .. you will find the same type of infighting
> in every large company.
>
> Imagine the IBM AIX group giving up their Cust list so another group
> or company can migrate them to Linux ...
>

Have IBM announced an EOL date for AIX ? HP have for VMS.

Yes, my comments above are a bit direct but they are motivated by my
desire to see the port succeed and by not seeing any evidence of VSI
doing some of the things they should be doing.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world

[j***@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, February 14, 2017 at 8:49:20 PM UTC-5, Simon Clubley wrote:

> Have IBM announced an EOL date for AIX ? HP have for VMS.

Perhaps I'm blind, but it's not clear to me when the EOL date is for HP's VMS.
And what does death actually look like on the day after?

EJ

[Simon Clubley]

On 2017-02-15, ***@gmail.com <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 14, 2017 at 8:49:20 PM UTC-5, Simon Clubley wrote:
>
>> Have IBM announced an EOL date for AIX ? HP have for VMS.
>
> Perhaps I'm blind, but it's not clear to me when the EOL date is for HP's VMS.

The EOL date for HP VMS on IA64 is 31-Dec-2020.

See:

http://h41379.www4.hpe.com/openvms/openvms_supportchart.html

for details.

> And what does death actually look like on the day after?
>

It means good luck trying to get general problems fixed.

> EJ


--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world

[Simon Clubley]

On 2017-02-15, Simon Clubley <***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP> wrote:
>
> The EOL date for HP VMS on IA64 is 31-Dec-2020.
>
> See:
>
> http://h41379.www4.hpe.com/openvms/openvms_supportchart.html
>
> for details.
>
>> And what does death actually look like on the day after?
>>
>
> It means good luck trying to get general problems fixed.
>

To further clarify that, from 1-Jan-2021, IA64 VMS enters the "Mature
Product Support without Sustaining Engineering" phase. The details
are on the page at the above URL.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world

[j***@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, February 14, 2017 at 9:40:24 PM UTC-5, Simon Clubley wrote:

> It means good luck trying to get general problems fixed.

I don't mean to be snarky or really snotty, but... is that really that different
from how things are now? I would imagine the vast majority of VMS customers
are already effectively living under those conditions. Or maybe I'm being too
negative to the service that is provided now.

EJ

[Simon Clubley]

On 2017-02-15, ***@gmail.com <***@gmail.com> wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 14, 2017 at 9:40:24 PM UTC-5, Simon Clubley wrote:
>
>> It means good luck trying to get general problems fixed.
>
> I don't mean to be snarky or really snotty, but... is that really that different
> from how things are now? I would imagine the vast majority of VMS customers
> are already effectively living under those conditions. Or maybe I'm being too
> negative to the service that is provided now.
>

It means if, for example, a proven security or data corruption issue
is found in IA64 VMS between now and 1-Jan-2021, then HP are required
to fix it for their support contract customers.

I am not seeing any obligation on the web page I mentioned for HP to
do this after 1-Jan-2021.

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world

[David Froble]

Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2017-02-15, ***@gmail.com <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>> On Tuesday, February 14, 2017 at 9:40:24 PM UTC-5, Simon Clubley wrote:
>>
>>> It means good luck trying to get general problems fixed.
>> I don't mean to be snarky or really snotty, but... is that really that different
>> from how things are now? I would imagine the vast majority of VMS customers
>> are already effectively living under those conditions. Or maybe I'm being too
>> negative to the service that is provided now.
>>
>
> It means if, for example, a proven security or data corruption issue
> is found in IA64 VMS between now and 1-Jan-2021, then HP are required
> to fix it for their support contract customers.
>
> I am not seeing any obligation on the web page I mentioned for HP to
> do this after 1-Jan-2021.
>
> Simon.
>

Perhaps HPE will attempt to "sell" a newer VSI version of VMS to fix any
problems? I doubt they will do more.

As for "HP are required", I got to ask, do you got more lawyers than HPE? If
not, you're gonna be out of luck.

Face it, when HPE cannot (will not) do anything with a support customer's
problem, they will just tell that customer that "nothing can (will) be done" and
if the customer drops support, "oh, well, was going to happen sooner or later".
If the customer still gives HPE money after such an event, perhaps they will
also be a good prospect for buying some bridges?

Your problem is you still believe HPE can be trusted ....

[j***@gmail.com]

On Tuesday, February 14, 2017 at 9:54:48 PM UTC-5, Simon Clubley wrote:

> It means if, for example, a proven security or data corruption issue
> is found in IA64 VMS between now and 1-Jan-2021, then HP are required
> to fix it for their support contract customers.
>
> I am not seeing any obligation on the web page I mentioned for HP to
> do this after 1-Jan-2021.

I understand the concept of the support that is intended. I just don't see
it as actually having been that these past few years.

To put it differently, I think you are already living in the world you think
arrives on Jan 1, 2021. You just don't know it yet. HP is happily charging
you for being blind. They are just choosing to ease people into a gentle
unmasking. Which on some level is quite considerate of them. :-)

I'm very jaded so perhaps I'm wrong and you are right.

EJ

[David Froble]

***@gmail.com wrote:
> On Tuesday, February 14, 2017 at 9:40:24 PM UTC-5, Simon Clubley wrote:
>
>> It means good luck trying to get general problems fixed.
>
> I don't mean to be snarky or really snotty, but... is that really that different
> from how things are now? I would imagine the vast majority of VMS customers
> are already effectively living under those conditions. Or maybe I'm being too
> negative to the service that is provided now.
>
> EJ

You beat me to mentioning this. I'd never trust HPE to do anything for VMS today.

Maybe Simon still believes in the tooth fairy?

[Simon Clubley]

On 2017-02-15, David Froble <***@tsoft-inc.com> wrote:
>
> You beat me to mentioning this. I'd never trust HPE to do anything
> for VMS today.
>
> Maybe Simon still believes in the tooth fairy?

No, but he does believe in honourable behaviour and people actually
delivering on what they promise (unless there's a very good reason
they could not have reasonably forseen when making the promise).

Simon.

--
Simon Clubley, ***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP
Microsoft: Bringing you 1980s technology to a 21st century world

[David Froble]

Simon Clubley wrote:
> On 2017-02-14, Kerry Main <***@gmail.com> wrote:
>>> From: Info-vax [mailto:info-vax-***@rbnsn.com] On Behalf Of
>>> Simon Clubley via Info-vax
>>> Sent: February 14, 2017 8:29 AM
>>> To: info-***@rbnsn.com
>>> Cc: Simon Clubley <***@remove_me.eisner.decus.org-Earth.UFP>
>>> Subject: Re: [Info-vax] VSI and VMS advertising, was: Re: Some
>>> additional notes from IKEA/VSI event.
>>>
>>> Well, it's a very good source of high quality leads so in hindsight it
>>> makes perfect sense that no-one in VSI marketing have done this.
>>>
>>> I just automatically assumed that VSI had done this because it's such an
>>> obvious thing to do. I know VSI are contacting the high value
>>> customers, but VSI can't be relying on a few high value customers;
>>> they need to be building a critical mass of all types of customers so
>>> they have more redundancy in their business model as and when the
>>> large customers move away from VMS.
>>>
>>> At one time DEC actually understood this as well and their product lines
>>> reflected that understanding.
>>>
>>> I wonder what portion of current HP VMS service contract customers
>>> don't even know that VSI actually exists ? Imagine what a simple letter
>>> merely telling them about the existence of VSI could have done for
>>> those customers.
>>>
>>> And once again, if the plan is to tell these customers about VSI when
>>> the x86-64 port is complete, then that's way too late because VSI will
>>> have lost customers that they may have otherwise retained.
>>>
>>> Kerry's a marketing person. If he's still reading this thread, then surely
>>> he must realise this as well.
>>>
>>> Simon.
>>>
>> Nice try. And don't call me Shirley.
>>
>> Simon - as you appear to want to be a marketing person, you should
>> first learn how large companies work.
>>
>
> I am _not_ a marketing person. What I am is someone who wants this
> port to succeed and is getting seriously frustrated at seeing
> potential opportunity over potential opportunity slipping away from
> VSI because of apparent inaction.
>
> Rather than just do general useless whining, I am instead trying to
> identify specific issues with VSI's approach and plans and comment on
> those specific issues to try and get a constructive discussion going.
> If that sounds like me trying to generate marketing ideas for VSI then
> so be it.
>
> Oh, and based on their performance around here, VSI have had to be
> pushed at every stage in order to promote themselves and to communicate
> with people.
>
> Sometimes, I think VSI are acting as if they are still a cog in a
> large machine and that there's whole sets of teams around them to do
> the marketing and provide product development guidance while they just
> focus on the job of building things without having to worry about all
> "that other stuff".
>
> Well, they are no longer a cog in a large machine but are instead now
> a small company. They _do_ have to worry about this stuff and they
> have to worry about it _now_ and not in a couple of years when the
> port is complete and it's about time they realise this.
>
>> Lesson #1 - inter-departmental rivalry isn't pretty. Each dept has its
>> own revenue goals and its every one for themselves.
>>
>> What makes you think HPE Tech Support wants to provide its Cust list
>> to another company who's goal it is to get these Cust's to migrate
>> away from HPE Support?
>>
>
> And that's _exactly_ why this should have been part of the initial
> contract negotiations. If I, a non-marketing person, can think of
> this, then VSI should have done so as well.
>
> If VSI _do_ have access to these lists, either directly or indirectly
> via HP then they should have used them by now.
>
>> And thereby reduce HPE's already declining support revenues?
>>
>
> Those support revenues will disappear anyway in several years and HP
> might actually got _more_ money in if the customers wait for VSI to
> complete the port instead of porting away from VMS _now_.
>
>> Heck, when I was in HP Consulting, it was almost impossible to get
>> these HP Cust support lists for any type of initiative.
>>
>
> This should have been a C-level to C-level discussion (which is
> where I assume the contract negotiations took place) and not a lower
> level manager discussion.
>
> Oh, and DEC have done this before. During the transition from VAX
> to Alpha, DEC decided they would no longer supply a Dibol compiler.
> A third party vendor did supply such a compiler and DEC formally wrote
> to every VAX Dibol support customer to tell them about this.
>
> Guess how I know this ?
>
>> This is not unique to HPE .. you will find the same type of infighting
>> in every large company.
>>
>> Imagine the IBM AIX group giving up their Cust list so another group
>> or company can migrate them to Linux ...
>>
>
> Have IBM announced an EOL date for AIX ? HP have for VMS.
>
> Yes, my comments above are a bit direct but they are motivated by my
> desire to see the port succeed and by not seeing any evidence of VSI
> doing some of the things they should be doing.
>
> Simon.
>

Simon,

I see where you're coming from on this, and I agree. However:

VSI most likely came to HP as a supplicant, and had to accept what they could
get. Now, I don't know how this went, but I can guess that they had to convince
HP to make the deal. Probably had to mention a few things, such as HP being
able to continue to make some money on something they were going to discontinue,
and such. I'm thinking that HP had to be convinced that it was in their
interest (more money) to make the deal. Otherwise, they would have followed
their interest in milking the dying cow as long as they could.

Now, this is speculation. I know nothing.

I'm still amazed that VSI was able to get as much as they did from HP. Aren't you?

Kerry makes a lot of sense about HP perhaps holding back on some things, and not
including such in the transfer of VMS to VSI. Again, speculation.

Seeing as VSI exists solely for VMS, I'm thinking they are doing as much as they
can. If not, they will shirley fail.

So yeah, mention ideas to VSI. But don't keep beating them up over things,
which may be totally outside their control.

[c***@gmail.com]

> Simon,
>
> I see where you're coming from on this, and I agree. However:
>
> VSI most likely came to HP as a supplicant, and had to accept what they could
> get. Now, I don't know how this went, but I can guess that they had to convince
> HP to make the deal. Probably had to mention a few things, such as HP being
> able to continue to make some money on something they were going to discontinue,
> and such. I'm thinking that HP had to be convinced that it was in their
> interest (more money) to make the deal. Otherwise, they would have followed
> their interest in milking the dying cow as long as they could.
>
> Now, this is speculation. I know nothing.
>
> I'm still amazed that VSI was able to get as much as they did from HP. Aren't you?
>
> Kerry makes a lot of sense about HP perhaps holding back on some things, and not
> including such in the transfer of VMS to VSI. Again, speculation.
>
> Seeing as VSI exists solely for VMS, I'm thinking they are doing as much as they
> can. If not, they will shirley fail.
>
> So yeah, mention ideas to VSI. But don't keep beating them up over things,
> which may be totally outside their control.

There are many completely logical assumptions made in this discussion but are not reflected in what has transpired over the last 2.5 years. (BTW: 2.5 years ago I would not have bet $1 on this operation still being in existence today. But here we are.)

There are many things we should be doing but we just don’t have the resources to do more than we already are. Too bad but that is the reality. Each year we are making a little more money and hiring a few more people. It is a slow process. We will never be able to do many of the things people would like. We have to pick our spots very carefully.