Hard News

[Tony Cooper]

"Hard news" is a term that means serious news concerning politics,
foreign affairs, and important events. Human interest stories, gossip
about figures in the entertainment world, and other fluff pieces are
not hard news.

In the US, hard news is often about one of the raging controversies
created by our President or one of his family members.

In Canada, hard news is that Canada's governor general lightly touched
the Queen's elbow to ensure that she didn't slip on the steps at
London's Canada House during a visit. Compounding this grievous
breach of protocol, he did the same thing twice...once when she
arrived and once when she left.

In the UK, hard news is that "Kate" wore an appropriate dress when
visiting Stutthof concentration camp in Poland. Not that anyone
expected her to wear anything inappropriate, but the media wanted
everyone to know that she was attired both fashionably and
appropriately.

It must be nice to live in a country where political figures limit
their grabbing to the elbows of elderly ladies or where reporters have
nothing to distract them from fashion observations.

[the Omrud]

Post by Tony Cooper
In the UK, hard news is that "Kate" wore an appropriate dress when
visiting Stutthof concentration camp in Poland. Not that anyone
expected her to wear anything inappropriate, but the media wanted
everyone to know that she was attired both fashionably and
appropriately.

Sadly, not. I hadn't heard or read this "news". I think you must have
been reading the right-wing tabloids. I have no idea what they publish
as news.

Post by Tony Cooper
It must be nice to live in a country where political figures limit
their grabbing to the elbows of elderly ladies or where reporters have
nothing to distract them from fashion observations.

Sadly, again, we have megatons of hard news, all of it relating to the
incompetence of the government in their negotiations with the EU.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by the Omrud

Post by Tony Cooper
In the UK, hard news is that "Kate" wore an appropriate dress when
visiting Stutthof concentration camp in Poland. Not that anyone
expected her to wear anything inappropriate, but the media wanted
everyone to know that she was attired both fashionably and
appropriately.

Sadly, not. I hadn't heard or read this "news". I think you must have
been reading the right-wing tabloids. I have no idea what they publish
as news.

I really don't know what British tabloids are left, right, or center.
I don't really have a grasp of what a Brit means when he speaks of the
left, right, or center. You're "right" may not be my "right" any more
than your Conservatives are the same as our conservatives.

I don't actually read any British publication. I read an online news
feed that links to articles in various categories.

Frankly, I don't always notice the source publication of an article.
"Kate" seems to get favorable press across-the-board, and seems to
deserve favorable press.

We are less kind to Ivanka. Articles about the Duchess refer to what
she wears and who designed it. Articles about Ivanka refer to her
shoes being made in Chinese sweat shops and that her feet are under
the table at a meeting where her father's feet should be under the
table.

The press here is warming to Melania, though. Fashion observations,
certainly, but she's getting credit in the press for her First Lady
activities.

Post by the Omrud

Post by Tony Cooper
It must be nice to live in a country where political figures limit
their grabbing to the elbows of elderly ladies or where reporters have
nothing to distract them from fashion observations.

Sadly, again, we have megatons of hard news, all of it relating to the
incompetence of the government in their negotiations with the EU.

Your irony meter is broken again. Get a little man in to adjust it.

[the Omrud]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by the Omrud

Post by Tony Cooper
In the UK, hard news is that "Kate" wore an appropriate dress when
visiting Stutthof concentration camp in Poland. Not that anyone
expected her to wear anything inappropriate, but the media wanted
everyone to know that she was attired both fashionably and
appropriately.

Sadly, not. I hadn't heard or read this "news". I think you must have
been reading the right-wing tabloids. I have no idea what they publish
as news.

I really don't know what British tabloids are left, right, or center.
I don't really have a grasp of what a Brit means when he speaks of the
left, right, or center. You're "right" may not be my "right" any more
than your Conservatives are the same as our conservatives.
I don't actually read any British publication. I read an online news
feed that links to articles in various categories.
Frankly, I don't always notice the source publication of an article.
"Kate" seems to get favorable press across-the-board, and seems to
deserve favorable press.
We are less kind to Ivanka. Articles about the Duchess refer to what
she wears and who designed it. Articles about Ivanka refer to her
shoes being made in Chinese sweat shops and that her feet are under
the table at a meeting where her father's feet should be under the
table.
The press here is warming to Melania, though. Fashion observations,
certainly, but she's getting credit in the press for her First Lady
activities.

Post by the Omrud

Post by Tony Cooper
It must be nice to live in a country where political figures limit
their grabbing to the elbows of elderly ladies or where reporters have
nothing to distract them from fashion observations.

Sadly, again, we have megatons of hard news, all of it relating to the
incompetence of the government in their negotiations with the EU.

Your irony meter is broken again. Get a little man in to adjust it.

My sense of humour is missing when discussing current UK politics.
There's nothing funny about it. In less than four years, you can get
rid of the idiot currently in the White House. In four years, we will
barely know how aful it's going to be for the next 40 years, and we will
have no way to reverse the damage.

Sorry.

As it happens, I'm off to the Big Old US of A for eight weeks, but about
as far from you as one can get, short of going to Hawaii. With any
luck, I will not be exposed to much UK news. I may be exposed to bears,
but they have understandable desires.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

Post by the Omrud

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by the Omrud

Post by Tony Cooper
In the UK, hard news is that "Kate" wore an appropriate dress when
visiting Stutthof concentration camp in Poland. Not that anyone
expected her to wear anything inappropriate, but the media wanted
everyone to know that she was attired both fashionably and
appropriately.

Sadly, not. I hadn't heard or read this "news". I think you must have
been reading the right-wing tabloids. I have no idea what they publish
as news.

I really don't know what British tabloids are left, right, or center.
I don't really have a grasp of what a Brit means when he speaks of the
left, right, or center. You're "right" may not be my "right" any more
than your Conservatives are the same as our conservatives.
I don't actually read any British publication. I read an online news
feed that links to articles in various categories.
Frankly, I don't always notice the source publication of an article.
"Kate" seems to get favorable press across-the-board, and seems to
deserve favorable press.
We are less kind to Ivanka. Articles about the Duchess refer to what
she wears and who designed it. Articles about Ivanka refer to her
shoes being made in Chinese sweat shops and that her feet are under
the table at a meeting where her father's feet should be under the
table.
The press here is warming to Melania, though. Fashion observations,
certainly, but she's getting credit in the press for her First Lady
activities.

Post by the Omrud

Post by Tony Cooper
It must be nice to live in a country where political figures limit
their grabbing to the elbows of elderly ladies or where reporters have
nothing to distract them from fashion observations.

Sadly, again, we have megatons of hard news, all of it relating to the
incompetence of the government in their negotiations with the EU.

Your irony meter is broken again. Get a little man in to adjust it.

My sense of humour is missing when discussing current UK politics.
There's nothing funny about it. In less than four years, you can get
rid of the idiot currently in the White House. In four years, we will
barely know how aful it's going to be for the next 40 years, and we will
have no way to reverse the damage.
Sorry.
As it happens, I'm off to the Big Old US of A for eight weeks, but about
as far from you as one can get, short of going to Hawaii. With any
luck, I will not be exposed to much UK news. I may be exposed to bears,
but they have understandable desires.

However, you will be reminded of the UK by the State Flag of Hawaii.

[the Omrud]

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by the Omrud
As it happens, I'm off to the Big Old US of A for eight weeks, but about
as far from you as one can get, short of going to Hawaii. With any
luck, I will not be exposed to much UK news. I may be exposed to bears,
but they have understandable desires.

However, you will be reminded of the UK by the State Flag of Hawaii.

Ah, no, it's Hawaii I'm not getting to. I figured that Alaska is far
enough away from Florida.

[Tony Cooper]

Post by the Omrud

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by the Omrud
As it happens, I'm off to the Big Old US of A for eight weeks, but about
as far from you as one can get, short of going to Hawaii. With any
luck, I will not be exposed to much UK news. I may be exposed to bears,
but they have understandable desires.

However, you will be reminded of the UK by the State Flag of Hawaii.

Ah, no, it's Hawaii I'm not getting to. I figured that Alaska is far
enough away from Florida.

I am trying not to take offense at that on the basis that the
objective is to be as far away from Florida as possible, and not me in
particular.

I can only guess why you feel it is necessary to be far removed from
Florida. Bears are a problem in this area, but they seem to be more
interested in raiding trash cans* than in attacking humans. There
have been some attacks on humans by bears, but - so far - no one has
been able to train them to attack state legislators so it's still
considered to be a bad thing.

We are very hospitable to visiting Brits in Florida. We take care to
speak slowly and loudly in case y'all have trouble understanding
English. You are not obligated to eat grits even if the waitress
inadvertently includes them with your breakfast.

The only caveats to visiting Florida are that tipping - no matter how
odious you consider the practice - is both expected and required
unless you can successfully slip out a back door of the restaurant and
wear protective gear, and that there are no warning signs about the
effect of the Florida sun on British skin that has had only passing
acquaintance with sun.

*trash cans = dustbins that are not inside the house

[the Omrud]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by the Omrud

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by the Omrud
As it happens, I'm off to the Big Old US of A for eight weeks, but about
as far from you as one can get, short of going to Hawaii. With any
luck, I will not be exposed to much UK news. I may be exposed to bears,
but they have understandable desires.

However, you will be reminded of the UK by the State Flag of Hawaii.

Ah, no, it's Hawaii I'm not getting to. I figured that Alaska is far
enough away from Florida.

I am trying not to take offense at that on the basis that the
objective is to be as far away from Florida as possible, and not me in
particular.

Right. You see, I've been to Florida. Several times.

Post by Tony Cooper
I can only guess why you feel it is necessary to be far removed from
Florida. Bears are a problem in this area, but they seem to be more
interested in raiding trash cans* than in attacking humans. There
have been some attacks on humans by bears, but - so far - no one has
been able to train them to attack state legislators so it's still
considered to be a bad thing.
We are very hospitable to visiting Brits in Florida. We take care to
speak slowly and loudly in case y'all have trouble understanding
English. You are not obligated to eat grits even if the waitress
inadvertently includes them with your breakfast.

You've perhaps forgotten that I'm functionally bilingual, having spent
getting on for six months living and working with US teenagers and
children in the late 70s. I don't have the accent, it's true, but I can
decode most of the language.

Post by Tony Cooper
The only caveats to visiting Florida are that tipping - no matter how
odious you consider the practice - is both expected and required
unless you can successfully slip out a back door of the restaurant and
wear protective gear, and that there are no warning signs about the
effect of the Florida sun on British skin that has had only passing
acquaintance with sun.

Yes, that is rather frightening. We've been acclimatising for the
Alaskan summer by spending a month in southern France.

Post by Tony Cooper
*trash cans = dustbins that are not inside the house

=BrE rubbish bins, although these are usually smaller than dustbins. We
know that the southern states like everthing to be bigger.

[Charles Bishop]

Post by the Omrud

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by the Omrud

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by the Omrud
As it happens, I'm off to the Big Old US of A for eight weeks, but about
as far from you as one can get, short of going to Hawaii. With any
luck, I will not be exposed to much UK news. I may be exposed to bears,
but they have understandable desires.

However, you will be reminded of the UK by the State Flag of Hawaii.

Ah, no, it's Hawaii I'm not getting to. I figured that Alaska is far
enough away from Florida.

I am trying not to take offense at that on the basis that the
objective is to be as far away from Florida as possible, and not me in
particular.

Right. You see, I've been to Florida. Several times.

Post by Tony Cooper
I can only guess why you feel it is necessary to be far removed from
Florida. Bears are a problem in this area, but they seem to be more
interested in raiding trash cans* than in attacking humans. There
have been some attacks on humans by bears, but - so far - no one has
been able to train them to attack state legislators so it's still
considered to be a bad thing.
We are very hospitable to visiting Brits in Florida. We take care to
speak slowly and loudly in case y'all have trouble understanding
English. You are not obligated to eat grits even if the waitress
inadvertently includes them with your breakfast.

You've perhaps forgotten that I'm functionally bilingual, having spent
getting on for six months living and working with US teenagers and
children in the late 70s. I don't have the accent, it's true, but I can
decode most of the language.

Not to take anything away from what you know, but you might find that
the "language" that US teenagers and children were speaking in the 70s
has changed a tad.

Also, I'm wondering if you are functionally bilingual /because/ you
spent the six months, rather than having been so before then and the 6
months was a good way to test your bilinguality.

[snip]

I heard this on the news today, and I'm wondering if Tony (he of all
things Floridian) has any details. It's Very disturbing so you might
want to hit "next" at this point.



The report said that there is a video taken by teens who are seen and
heard taunting a disabled man as he drowned in a pond while he was
calling for help. The teens were rounded up by the police but weren't
charged with a crime since it's not one (rightly so, possibly) not to
give aid for anyone in distress. Even to the point of not calling 911 -
Emergency Services.

I heard that hours ago and it's still upsetting me.

[Tony Cooper]

On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 11:51:07 -0700, Charles Bishop

Post by Charles Bishop
I heard this on the news today, and I'm wondering if Tony (he of all
things Floridian) has any details. It's Very disturbing so you might
want to hit "next" at this point.
The report said that there is a video taken by teens who are seen and
heard taunting a disabled man as he drowned in a pond while he was
calling for help. The teens were rounded up by the police but weren't
charged with a crime since it's not one (rightly so, possibly) not to
give aid for anyone in distress. Even to the point of not calling 911 -
Emergency Services.
I heard that hours ago and it's still upsetting me.

I had not heard/read about this, but Cocoa is about 60/70 miles east
of me.

I don't see it as anything particularly Floridian about it except the
location.

Related article in Snopes about the "duty to rescue" and this case:

http://www.snopes.com/2017/07/21/cocoa-florida-drowning-controversy/

Now if you want to take this a step further, consider what the result
would be if the Brevard County police who questioned the teens had
been a bit - shall we say - aggressive in their questioning and the
boys would have "fallen down the stairs". Would you blame the police
and consider it police brutality?

[Lewis]

Post by Tony Cooper
On Fri, 21 Jul 2017 11:51:07 -0700, Charles Bishop

Post by Charles Bishop
I heard this on the news today, and I'm wondering if Tony (he of all
things Floridian) has any details. It's Very disturbing so you might
want to hit "next" at this point.
The report said that there is a video taken by teens who are seen and
heard taunting a disabled man as he drowned in a pond while he was
calling for help. The teens were rounded up by the police but weren't
charged with a crime since it's not one (rightly so, possibly) not to
give aid for anyone in distress. Even to the point of not calling 911 -
Emergency Services.
I heard that hours ago and it's still upsetting me.

I had not heard/read about this, but Cocoa is about 60/70 miles east
of me.
I don't see it as anything particularly Floridian about it except the
location.
http://www.snopes.com/2017/07/21/cocoa-florida-drowning-controversy/
Now if you want to take this a step further, consider what the result
would be if the Brevard County police who questioned the teens had
been a bit - shall we say - aggressive in their questioning and the
boys would have "fallen down the stairs". Would you blame the police
and consider it police brutality?

Yes, of course.

I mean, the "kids" are horrible and must come from horrible homes and
have never been taught how to be civilized members of society, that
seems to be unquestionably true, but police misconduct is still police
misconduct.

And while I consider Antony Scalia to have been a repugnant person, I
agree with him that there is no *legal* obligation to rescue someone.

In this specific case, however, I think that the act of filming the
death for the purposes of entertainment is a criminal act, as well as
subsequent viewings of that recording. This seems it would fall under
the "snuff films" criminality.

[Quinn C]

Post by Charles Bishop
The report said that there is a video taken by teens who are seen and
heard taunting a disabled man as he drowned in a pond while he was
calling for help. The teens were rounded up by the police but weren't
charged with a crime since it's not one (rightly so, possibly) not to
give aid for anyone in distress. Even to the point of not calling 911 -
Emergency Services.
I heard that hours ago and it's still upsetting me.

Indeed.

It would be a crime in a number of countries, mostly in Europe:

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Duty_to_rescue#Criminal_law>

[the Omrud]

Post by Charles Bishop
Not to take anything away from what you know, but you might find that
the "language" that US teenagers and children were speaking in the 70s
has changed a tad.

Very likely. I was being a bit argumentative for some reason.

[Charles Bishop]

Post by the Omrud

Post by Charles Bishop
Not to take anything away from what you know, but you might find that
the "language" that US teenagers and children were speaking in the 70s
has changed a tad.

Very likely. I was being a bit argumentative for some reason.

It didn't come across as being argumentative to me. Just the normal
discourse in the group.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Charles Bishop

Post by the Omrud
You've perhaps forgotten that I'm functionally bilingual, having spent
getting on for six months living and working with US teenagers and
children in the late 70s. I don't have the accent, it's true, but I can
decode most of the language.

Not to take anything away from what you know, but you might find that
the "language" that US teenagers and children were speaking in the 70s
has changed a tad.

That's a problem that many people hit. The case I keep hearing about is
Greek Australians who have visited the "old country" only to be told
"you speak like my grandmother". They can make themselves understood,
but they feel as if they are visiting a completely foreign country.
Apparently language evolves faster than we expect.

I consider myself to be AusE/AmE bilingual, on the grounds that I lived
in California for a full year, and could almost pass as a native on the
next couple of visits, but I have no doubt that I would sound seriously
foreign if I went back there now.

Post by Charles Bishop
Also, I'm wondering if you are functionally bilingual /because/ you
spent the six months, rather than having been so before then and the 6
months was a good way to test your bilinguality.

Some people pick up a new language or dialect quickly, and some don't.
I'm in the former group, and I've often wondered whether people think
I'm mocking them because I automatically adopt their accent if it's one
that I'm familiar with, or even because it's one that I'm starting to
pick up on the basis of a week's exposure. I've been told that I switch
back (without noticing it) to the dialect of my childhood when I'm
talking to my siblings, and that I "talk American" when I'm talking to
an American.

It seems that some people are of the adaptive type, switching accents
very easily, and some will forever stick with their own native accent. I
presume that the former group find it easier to learn new languages.

I'm guessing that the Omrud is in the former group, and picked up AmE
not because of former study, but because of the first few weeks of that
six months.

[snip Very disturbing report]

[the Omrud]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Charles Bishop

Post by the Omrud
You've perhaps forgotten that I'm functionally bilingual, having spent
getting on for six months living and working with US teenagers and
children in the late 70s. I don't have the accent, it's true, but I can
decode most of the language.

Not to take anything away from what you know, but you might find that
the "language" that US teenagers and children were speaking in the 70s
has changed a tad.

That's a problem that many people hit. The case I keep hearing about is
Greek Australians who have visited the "old country" only to be told
"you speak like my grandmother". They can make themselves understood,
but they feel as if they are visiting a completely foreign country.
Apparently language evolves faster than we expect.

I learned Parisian French in the 60s and 70s from a teacher who had
himself learned in Paris before WW2. I am sometimes told by my southern
French neighbours that I "talk like a northerner". I suspect they also
think I'm rather formal, although they may put this down to being English.

[Robert Bannister]

Post by the Omrud

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Charles Bishop

Post by the Omrud
You've perhaps forgotten that I'm functionally bilingual, having spent
getting on for six months living and working with US teenagers and
children in the late 70s. I don't have the accent, it's true, but I can
decode most of the language.

Not to take anything away from what you know, but you might find that
the "language" that US teenagers and children were speaking in the 70s
has changed a tad.

That's a problem that many people hit. The case I keep hearing about is
Greek Australians who have visited the "old country" only to be told
"you speak like my grandmother". They can make themselves understood,
but they feel as if they are visiting a completely foreign country.
Apparently language evolves faster than we expect.

I learned Parisian French in the 60s and 70s from a teacher who had
himself learned in Paris before WW2. I am sometimes told by my southern
French neighbours that I "talk like a northerner". I suspect they also
think I'm rather formal, although they may put this down to being English.

My proudest moment was when someone in Bavaria called me "ein
Saupreusse" - he meant it as an insult, but for me he was saying "you
sound like a German".

[bill van]

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by the Omrud

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Charles Bishop

Post by the Omrud
You've perhaps forgotten that I'm functionally bilingual, having spent
getting on for six months living and working with US teenagers and
children in the late 70s. I don't have the accent, it's true, but I can
decode most of the language.

Not to take anything away from what you know, but you might find that
the "language" that US teenagers and children were speaking in the 70s
has changed a tad.

That's a problem that many people hit. The case I keep hearing about is
Greek Australians who have visited the "old country" only to be told
"you speak like my grandmother". They can make themselves understood,
but they feel as if they are visiting a completely foreign country.
Apparently language evolves faster than we expect.

I learned Parisian French in the 60s and 70s from a teacher who had
himself learned in Paris before WW2. I am sometimes told by my southern
French neighbours that I "talk like a northerner". I suspect they also
think I'm rather formal, although they may put this down to being English.

My proudest moment was when someone in Bavaria called me "ein
Saupreusse" - he meant it as an insult, but for me he was saying "you
sound like a German".

The first time I returned to the Netherlands, nearly 20 years after
emigrating in the late 1950s, I ordered a genever in an Amsterdam pub.
During those 20 years, many of the regional dialects had disappeared
as a result of changes in communications and transportation. (Everyone
had acquired a television and a car during those 20 years.) The
waiter, with a touch of condescension, asked, "Is Meneer from Belgium?"

I was just pleased he understood my order. A few days earlier I'd
tried to order a cup of coffee in a beach cafe at Scheveningen. The
waiter had no idea what I was saying, and I thought my Dutch must be
rustier than I expected. It turned out he was an English student in
the first day of his summer job, and spoke no Dutch at all.

[Mark Brader]

Post by bill van
The first time I returned to the Netherlands, nearly 20 years after
emigrating in the late 1950s...

Hey, those are very close to my corresponding dates. Moved from England
to Canada 1957, first time back 1975.

[Robert Bannister]

Post by bill van

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by the Omrud

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Charles Bishop

Post by the Omrud
You've perhaps forgotten that I'm functionally bilingual, having spent
getting on for six months living and working with US teenagers and
children in the late 70s. I don't have the accent, it's true, but I can
decode most of the language.

Not to take anything away from what you know, but you might find that
the "language" that US teenagers and children were speaking in the 70s
has changed a tad.

That's a problem that many people hit. The case I keep hearing about is
Greek Australians who have visited the "old country" only to be told
"you speak like my grandmother". They can make themselves understood,
but they feel as if they are visiting a completely foreign country.
Apparently language evolves faster than we expect.

I learned Parisian French in the 60s and 70s from a teacher who had
himself learned in Paris before WW2. I am sometimes told by my southern
French neighbours that I "talk like a northerner". I suspect they also
think I'm rather formal, although they may put this down to being English.

My proudest moment was when someone in Bavaria called me "ein
Saupreusse" - he meant it as an insult, but for me he was saying "you
sound like a German".

The first time I returned to the Netherlands, nearly 20 years after
emigrating in the late 1950s, I ordered a genever in an Amsterdam pub.
During those 20 years, many of the regional dialects had disappeared
as a result of changes in communications and transportation. (Everyone
had acquired a television and a car during those 20 years.) The
waiter, with a touch of condescension, asked, "Is Meneer from Belgium?"
I was just pleased he understood my order. A few days earlier I'd
tried to order a cup of coffee in a beach cafe at Scheveningen. The
waiter had no idea what I was saying, and I thought my Dutch must be
rustier than I expected. It turned out he was an English student in
the first day of his summer job, and spoke no Dutch at all.

My first smile of the morning.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by bill van
I was just pleased he understood my order. A few days earlier I'd
tried to order a cup of coffee in a beach cafe at Scheveningen. The
waiter had no idea what I was saying, and I thought my Dutch must be
rustier than I expected. It turned out he was an English student in
the first day of his summer job, and spoke no Dutch at all.

My first smile of the morning.

That reminds me of a time when I was lost in Paris at midnight, and had
to ask a passer-by for directions. He gave a clear explanation, and I
set off in the right direction. It was only after I had walked another
block that I realised that he had been speaking French with an
Australian accent.

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by bill van

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by the Omrud

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Charles Bishop

Post by the Omrud
You've perhaps forgotten that I'm functionally bilingual, having spent
getting on for six months living and working with US teenagers and
children in the late 70s. I don't have the accent, it's true, but I can
decode most of the language.

Not to take anything away from what you know, but you might find that
the "language" that US teenagers and children were speaking in the 70s
has changed a tad.

That's a problem that many people hit. The case I keep hearing about is
Greek Australians who have visited the "old country" only to be told
"you speak like my grandmother". They can make themselves understood,
but they feel as if they are visiting a completely foreign country.
Apparently language evolves faster than we expect.

I learned Parisian French in the 60s and 70s from a teacher who had
himself learned in Paris before WW2. I am sometimes told by my southern
French neighbours that I "talk like a northerner". I suspect they also
think I'm rather formal, although they may put this down to being English.

My proudest moment was when someone in Bavaria called me "ein
Saupreusse" - he meant it as an insult, but for me he was saying "you
sound like a German".

The first time I returned to the Netherlands, nearly 20 years after
emigrating in the late 1950s, I ordered a genever in an Amsterdam pub.
During those 20 years, many of the regional dialects had disappeared
as a result of changes in communications and transportation. (Everyone
had acquired a television and a car during those 20 years.) The
waiter, with a touch of condescension, asked, "Is Meneer from Belgium?"

Not just dialects, also 'genever/jenever' has largely disappeared.
Nobody drinks it anymore.
(dementing oldsters in homes for the elderly aren't allowed to)
Some pubs may not even have it in stock.
It survives mainly as an export product.

Jan

[bill van]

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by bill van
The first time I returned to the Netherlands, nearly 20 years after
emigrating in the late 1950s, I ordered a genever in an Amsterdam pub.
During those 20 years, many of the regional dialects had disappeared
as a result of changes in communications and transportation. (Everyone
had acquired a television and a car during those 20 years.) The
waiter, with a touch of condescension, asked, "Is Meneer from Belgium?"

Not just dialects, also 'genever/jenever' has largely disappeared.
Nobody drinks it anymore.
(dementing oldsters in homes for the elderly aren't allowed to)
Some pubs may not even have it in stock.
It survives mainly as an export product.

I am surprised. Can you say why they stopped drinking it? What do they
drink instead? (I'm assuming they haven't stopped entirely.) I suppose
my family's cultural evolution as Dutch people stopped when we
emigrated, and I missed that development.

Once in Canada, we continued to buy genever; it's still available
today, though not in every liquor store. It was featured at family
get-togethers until my parents died. I keep a bottle in my
refrigerator even now, though I don't have a sip of it more than three
or four times a year. Once in a while, usually on a warm summer
evening, I like a crisp lager with a small glass ("een kleintje") of
very cold genever on the side.

[Jack Campin]

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by bill van
The first time I returned to the Netherlands, nearly 20 years after
emigrating in the late 1950s, I ordered a genever in an Amsterdam pub.
During those 20 years, many of the regional dialects had disappeared
as a result of changes in communications and transportation. (Everyone
had acquired a television and a car during those 20 years.) The
waiter, with a touch of condescension, asked, "Is Meneer from Belgium?"

Not just dialects, also 'genever/jenever' has largely disappeared.
Nobody drinks it anymore.
(dementing oldsters in homes for the elderly aren't allowed to)
Some pubs may not even have it in stock.
It survives mainly as an export product.

Is it any different from gin? That's the currently trendiest
alcoholic drink in the UK.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile [phone] <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by the Omrud

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Charles Bishop

Post by the Omrud
You've perhaps forgotten that I'm functionally bilingual, having spent
getting on for six months living and working with US teenagers and
children in the late 70s. I don't have the accent, it's true, but I can
decode most of the language.

Not to take anything away from what you know, but you might find that
the "language" that US teenagers and children were speaking in the 70s
has changed a tad.

That's a problem that many people hit. The case I keep hearing about is
Greek Australians who have visited the "old country" only to be told
"you speak like my grandmother". They can make themselves understood,
but they feel as if they are visiting a completely foreign country.
Apparently language evolves faster than we expect.

I learned Parisian French in the 60s and 70s from a teacher who had
himself learned in Paris before WW2. I am sometimes told by my
southern French neighbours that I "talk like a northerner". I suspect
they also think I'm rather formal, although they may put this down to
being English.

My proudest moment was when someone in Bavaria called me "ein
Saupreusse" - he meant it as an insult, but for me he was saying "you
sound like a German".

I had a similar experience in Paris, where colleagues said I spoke
French like a Belgian.

[Paul Carmichael]

Post by Peter Moylan
I had a similar experience in Paris, where colleagues said I spoke
French like a Belgian.

I've been accused of being andaluz. Which is odd because I don't hiss like they do (seseo).

[Charles Bishop]

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by the Omrud

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Charles Bishop

Post by the Omrud
You've perhaps forgotten that I'm functionally bilingual, having spent
getting on for six months living and working with US teenagers and
children in the late 70s. I don't have the accent, it's true, but I can
decode most of the language.

Not to take anything away from what you know, but you might find that
the "language" that US teenagers and children were speaking in the 70s
has changed a tad.

That's a problem that many people hit. The case I keep hearing about is
Greek Australians who have visited the "old country" only to be told
"you speak like my grandmother". They can make themselves understood,
but they feel as if they are visiting a completely foreign country.
Apparently language evolves faster than we expect.

I learned Parisian French in the 60s and 70s from a teacher who had
himself learned in Paris before WW2. I am sometimes told by my southern
French neighbours that I "talk like a northerner". I suspect they also
think I'm rather formal, although they may put this down to being English.

My proudest moment was when someone in Bavaria called me "ein
Saupreusse" - he meant it as an insult, but for me he was saying "you
sound like a German".

I was mistaken for a Chileno when buying a shirt there. It didn't last
long, perhaps a few minutes until a salesperson told the other that of
course I wasn't.

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by the Omrud

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Charles Bishop

Post by the Omrud
You've perhaps forgotten that I'm functionally bilingual, having spent
getting on for six months living and working with US teenagers and
children in the late 70s. I don't have the accent, it's true, but I can
decode most of the language.

Not to take anything away from what you know, but you might find that
the "language" that US teenagers and children were speaking in the 70s
has changed a tad.

That's a problem that many people hit. The case I keep hearing about is
Greek Australians who have visited the "old country" only to be told
"you speak like my grandmother". They can make themselves understood,
but they feel as if they are visiting a completely foreign country.
Apparently language evolves faster than we expect.

I learned Parisian French in the 60s and 70s from a teacher who had
himself learned in Paris before WW2. I am sometimes told by my southern
French neighbours that I "talk like a northerner". I suspect they also
think I'm rather formal, although they may put this down to being English.

They'll find you difficult to place.
On one hand your French will be less fluent than theirs,
but on the other hand your formal grammer will be much better
than that of most of them.

Jan

[Paul Carmichael]

Post by Charles Bishop
The report said that there is a video taken by teens who are seen and
heard taunting a disabled man as he drowned in a pond while he was
calling for help. The teens were rounded up by the police but weren't
charged with a crime since it's not one (rightly so, possibly) not to
give aid for anyone in distress. Even to the point of not calling 911 -
Emergency Services.

It's an offence (crime?) here in Spain. If you are seen driving past somebody in mortal
danger, you can get into serious trouble. Everyone here is expected to help if they can
without risk to themselves.


http://iabogado.com/guia-legal/delitos-y-faltas/la-omision-del-deber-de-socorro
https://www.sanchezbermejo.com/el-deber-de-socorro/

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by the Omrud
As it happens, I'm off to the Big Old US of A for eight weeks, but about
as far from you as one can get, short of going to Hawaii. With any
luck, I will not be exposed to much UK news. I may be exposed to bears,
but they have understandable desires.

If you encounter a b'ar, don't turn and run away; that will prompt them to chase
and eat you.

Though if you get between a mama and her cubs, there's not much for you; but
this is the wrong time of year for that to happen.

[the Omrud]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by the Omrud
As it happens, I'm off to the Big Old US of A for eight weeks, but about
as far from you as one can get, short of going to Hawaii. With any
luck, I will not be exposed to much UK news. I may be exposed to bears,
but they have understandable desires.

If you encounter a b'ar, don't turn and run away; that will prompt them to chase
and eat you.

I'm planning to run faster than Wife.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by the Omrud

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by the Omrud
As it happens, I'm off to the Big Old US of A for eight weeks, but about
as far from you as one can get, short of going to Hawaii. With any
luck, I will not be exposed to much UK news. I may be exposed to bears,
but they have understandable desires.

If you encounter a b'ar, don't turn and run away; that will prompt them to chase
and eat you.

I'm planning to run faster than Wife.

I chose not to add that bit of advice* ... but that's not very gallant!

*"I don't have to outrun the bear, I just have to outrun you."

[the Omrud]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by the Omrud

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by the Omrud
As it happens, I'm off to the Big Old US of A for eight weeks, but about
as far from you as one can get, short of going to Hawaii. With any
luck, I will not be exposed to much UK news. I may be exposed to bears,
but they have understandable desires.

If you encounter a b'ar, don't turn and run away; that will prompt them to chase
and eat you.

I'm planning to run faster than Wife.

I chose not to add that bit of advice* ... but that's not very gallant!
*"I don't have to outrun the bear, I just have to outrun you."

She's already told her dad that she plans to run faster than me, so I
reckon it's fair comment.

[Harrison Hill]

Post by the Omrud

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by the Omrud

Post by Tony Cooper
In the UK, hard news is that "Kate" wore an appropriate dress when
visiting Stutthof concentration camp in Poland. Not that anyone
expected her to wear anything inappropriate, but the media wanted
everyone to know that she was attired both fashionably and
appropriately.

Sadly, not. I hadn't heard or read this "news". I think you must have
been reading the right-wing tabloids. I have no idea what they publish
as news.

I really don't know what British tabloids are left, right, or center.
I don't really have a grasp of what a Brit means when he speaks of the
left, right, or center. You're "right" may not be my "right" any more
than your Conservatives are the same as our conservatives.
I don't actually read any British publication. I read an online news
feed that links to articles in various categories.
Frankly, I don't always notice the source publication of an article.
"Kate" seems to get favorable press across-the-board, and seems to
deserve favorable press.
We are less kind to Ivanka. Articles about the Duchess refer to what
she wears and who designed it. Articles about Ivanka refer to her
shoes being made in Chinese sweat shops and that her feet are under
the table at a meeting where her father's feet should be under the
table.
The press here is warming to Melania, though. Fashion observations,
certainly, but she's getting credit in the press for her First Lady
activities.

Post by the Omrud

Post by Tony Cooper
It must be nice to live in a country where political figures limit
their grabbing to the elbows of elderly ladies or where reporters have
nothing to distract them from fashion observations.

Sadly, again, we have megatons of hard news, all of it relating to the
incompetence of the government in their negotiations with the EU.

Your irony meter is broken again. Get a little man in to adjust it.

My sense of humour is missing when discussing current UK politics.
There's nothing funny about it. In less than four years, you can get
rid of the idiot currently in the White House. In four years, we will
barely know how aful it's going to be for the next 40 years, and we will
have no way to reverse the damage.
Sorry.
As it happens, I'm off to the Big Old US of A for eight weeks, but about
as far from you as one can get, short of going to Hawaii. With any
luck, I will not be exposed to much UK news. I may be exposed to bears,
but they have understandable desires.

It is simple. If the EU want a deal they will present it to
us, and we can accept it or not accept it. If they don't,
there will be no deal.

Simples!

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Harrison Hill

Post by the Omrud

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by the Omrud

Post by Tony Cooper
In the UK, hard news is that "Kate" wore an appropriate dress when
visiting Stutthof concentration camp in Poland. Not that anyone
expected her to wear anything inappropriate, but the media wanted
everyone to know that she was attired both fashionably and
appropriately.

Sadly, not. I hadn't heard or read this "news". I think you must have
been reading the right-wing tabloids. I have no idea what they publish
as news.

I really don't know what British tabloids are left, right, or center.
I don't really have a grasp of what a Brit means when he speaks of the
left, right, or center. You're "right" may not be my "right" any more
than your Conservatives are the same as our conservatives.
I don't actually read any British publication. I read an online news
feed that links to articles in various categories.
Frankly, I don't always notice the source publication of an article.
"Kate" seems to get favorable press across-the-board, and seems to
deserve favorable press.
We are less kind to Ivanka. Articles about the Duchess refer to what
she wears and who designed it. Articles about Ivanka refer to her
shoes being made in Chinese sweat shops and that her feet are under
the table at a meeting where her father's feet should be under the
table.
The press here is warming to Melania, though. Fashion observations,
certainly, but she's getting credit in the press for her First Lady
activities.

Post by the Omrud

Post by Tony Cooper
It must be nice to live in a country where political figures limit
their grabbing to the elbows of elderly ladies or where reporters have
nothing to distract them from fashion observations.

Sadly, again, we have megatons of hard news, all of it relating to the
incompetence of the government in their negotiations with the EU.

Your irony meter is broken again. Get a little man in to adjust it.

My sense of humour is missing when discussing current UK politics.
There's nothing funny about it. In less than four years, you can get
rid of the idiot currently in the White House. In four years, we will
barely know how aful it's going to be for the next 40 years, and we will
have no way to reverse the damage.
Sorry.
As it happens, I'm off to the Big Old US of A for eight weeks, but about
as far from you as one can get, short of going to Hawaii. With any
luck, I will not be exposed to much UK news. I may be exposed to bears,
but they have understandable desires.

It is simple. If the EU want a deal they will present it to
us, and we can accept it or not accept it. If they don't,
there will be no deal.

You voted to get out on a program of having your cake and eat it.
You can't expect 'Europe' to tell you howto.
So go eat your cake and have it.

Good luck,

Jan

[Lewis]

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Harrison Hill

Post by the Omrud

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by the Omrud

Post by Tony Cooper
In the UK, hard news is that "Kate" wore an appropriate dress when
visiting Stutthof concentration camp in Poland. Not that anyone
expected her to wear anything inappropriate, but the media wanted
everyone to know that she was attired both fashionably and
appropriately.

Sadly, not. I hadn't heard or read this "news". I think you must have
been reading the right-wing tabloids. I have no idea what they publish
as news.

I really don't know what British tabloids are left, right, or center.
I don't really have a grasp of what a Brit means when he speaks of the
left, right, or center. You're "right" may not be my "right" any more
than your Conservatives are the same as our conservatives.
I don't actually read any British publication. I read an online news
feed that links to articles in various categories.
Frankly, I don't always notice the source publication of an article.
"Kate" seems to get favorable press across-the-board, and seems to
deserve favorable press.
We are less kind to Ivanka. Articles about the Duchess refer to what
she wears and who designed it. Articles about Ivanka refer to her
shoes being made in Chinese sweat shops and that her feet are under
the table at a meeting where her father's feet should be under the
table.
The press here is warming to Melania, though. Fashion observations,
certainly, but she's getting credit in the press for her First Lady
activities.

Post by the Omrud

Post by Tony Cooper
It must be nice to live in a country where political figures limit
their grabbing to the elbows of elderly ladies or where reporters have
nothing to distract them from fashion observations.

Sadly, again, we have megatons of hard news, all of it relating to the
incompetence of the government in their negotiations with the EU.

Your irony meter is broken again. Get a little man in to adjust it.

My sense of humour is missing when discussing current UK politics.
There's nothing funny about it. In less than four years, you can get
rid of the idiot currently in the White House. In four years, we will
barely know how aful it's going to be for the next 40 years, and we will
have no way to reverse the damage.
Sorry.
As it happens, I'm off to the Big Old US of A for eight weeks, but about
as far from you as one can get, short of going to Hawaii. With any
luck, I will not be exposed to much UK news. I may be exposed to bears,
but they have understandable desires.

It is simple. If the EU want a deal they will present it to
us, and we can accept it or not accept it. If they don't,
there will be no deal.

You voted to get out on a program of having your cake and eat it.
You can't expect 'Europe' to tell you howto.
So go eat your cake and have it.

The only reasonable thing for Europe to do after Brexit is minimize all
ties with the UK and slap a 20% tariff on all UK exports to pay for the
eventual 'rescue' of the UK that Europe will unquestionably have to
effect at some point in the not-to-distant future.

[Rich Ulrich]

On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:14:36 -0400, Tony Cooper

Post by Tony Cooper
The press here is warming to Melania, though. Fashion observations,
certainly, but she's getting credit in the press for her First Lady
activities.

Well, her announced FLOTUS hobby of concern about "internet bullying"
received a few comments on unintended irony after she defended DJT's.

[David Kleinecke]

Post by Rich Ulrich
On Thu, 20 Jul 2017 12:14:36 -0400, Tony Cooper

Post by Tony Cooper
The press here is warming to Melania, though. Fashion observations,
certainly, but she's getting credit in the press for her First Lady
activities.

Well, her announced FLOTUS hobby of concern about "internet bullying"
received a few comments on unintended irony after she defended DJT's.

The latest Trump scandal is that Donald seems to have
confused healthcare insurance with life insurance and
believed all those late night TV ads for cheap life
insurance policies.

I find this hard to imagine but then again the man may
never have seen a doctor's bill in his life.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Tony Cooper
"Hard news" is a term that means serious news concerning politics,
foreign affairs, and important events. Human interest stories, gossip
about figures in the entertainment world, and other fluff pieces are
not hard news.
In the US, hard news is often about one of the raging controversies
created by our President or one of his family members.
In Canada, hard news is that Canada's governor general lightly touched
the Queen's elbow to ensure that she didn't slip on the steps at
London's Canada House during a visit. Compounding this grievous
breach of protocol, he did the same thing twice...once when she
arrived and once when she left.

A former Australian Prime Minister also created a scandal when he
touched the Queen's arm. At least, it was a scandal in the gutter press.

Some of our current "hard news" is about two Senators who have had to
resign after discovering that, without knowing it, they had dual
citizenship. One was born in New Zealand but came to Australia when he
was three years old. The other was born while her Australian parents
were visiting Canada. The Murdoch press is having a field day over the
fact that they're both members of the Green party, and is doing complex
calculations over how much money they'll have to pay back in several
years of senatorial salary, travel allowances, electoral offices, etc.

Australian law does not allow parliamentarians to hold dual citizenship.
We're worried about divided loyalties if we should happen to be at war
with New Zealand or Canada.

[Jack Campin]

Post by Peter Moylan
Some of our current "hard news" is about two Senators who have had to
resign after discovering that, without knowing it, they had dual
citizenship. One was born in New Zealand but came to Australia when he
was three years old. The other was born while her Australian parents
were visiting Canada. The Murdoch press is having a field day over the
fact that they're both members of the Green party, and is doing complex
calculations over how much money they'll have to pay back in several
years of senatorial salary, travel allowances, electoral offices, etc.

What nationality is Murdoch, again?

Post by Peter Moylan
Australian law does not allow parliamentarians to hold dual citizenship.
We're worried about divided loyalties if we should happen to be at war
with New Zealand or Canada.

Did Joh Bjelke-Petersen ever give up his NZ citizenship? (I doubt
many Kiwis were heartbroken to have lost him).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile [phone] <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Jack Campin

Post by Peter Moylan
Some of our current "hard news" is about two Senators who have had to
resign after discovering that, without knowing it, they had dual
citizenship. One was born in New Zealand but came to Australia when he
was three years old. The other was born while her Australian parents
were visiting Canada. The Murdoch press is having a field day over the
fact that they're both members of the Green party, and is doing complex
calculations over how much money they'll have to pay back in several
years of senatorial salary, travel allowances, electoral offices, etc.

What nationality is Murdoch, again?

I know what his _citizenship_ is ...

Post by Jack Campin

Post by Peter Moylan
Australian law does not allow parliamentarians to hold dual citizenship.
We're worried about divided loyalties if we should happen to be at war
with New Zealand or Canada.

Did Joh Bjelke-Petersen ever give up his NZ citizenship? (I doubt
many Kiwis were heartbroken to have lost him).

Loathsome Texas senator Ted Cruz was born in Canada. Most commentators believe
that that disqualified him from being president, but he made a big show of
"renouncing" his Canadian (dual) citizenship during the 2016 presidential campaign. As if that could change his birthplace.

(On the loathsomeness of Ted Cruz, see Senator Al Franken's new book, ca. p. 300ff.)
(Al Franken used to be a stand-up comedian and comedy writer.)

Former presidential candidate George Romney (father of Mitt Romney) was born in
Arizona Territory, and former presidential candidate John McCain -- who was
just discovered to have an aggressive brain tumor; tell us _that_ isn't God's
way of thwarting Mitch McConnell -- was born in Canal Zone, and Congress felt
the need to pass a "special bill" allowing him to be president, "just in case.")

[RH Draney]

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Former presidential candidate George Romney (father of Mitt Romney) was born in
Arizona Territory, and former presidential candidate John McCain -- who was
just discovered to have an aggressive brain tumor; tell us _that_ isn't God's
way of thwarting Mitch McConnell -- was born in Canal Zone, and Congress felt
the need to pass a "special bill" allowing him to be president, "just in case.")

They needn't have bothered...the concern in 1964 over Barry Goldwater,
born in Arizona before it became a state, was settled to everyone's
satisfaction in a day or two, which converted to 2017 units is a shorter
period than the blink of an eye....r

[Peter Moylan]

Post by RH Draney

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Former presidential candidate George Romney (father of Mitt
Romney) was born in Arizona Territory, and former presidential
candidate John McCain -- who was just discovered to have an
aggressive brain tumor; tell us _that_ isn't God's way of thwarting
Mitch McConnell -- was born in Canal Zone, and Congress felt the
need to pass a "special bill" allowing him to be president, "just
in case.")

They needn't have bothered...the concern in 1964 over Barry
Goldwater, born in Arizona before it became a state, was settled to
everyone's satisfaction in a day or two, which converted to 2017
units is a shorter period than the blink of an eye....r

What's that in dog years?

[Mack A. Damia]

On Sat, 22 Jul 2017 23:27:38 +1000, Peter Moylan

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by RH Draney

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Former presidential candidate George Romney (father of Mitt
Romney) was born in Arizona Territory, and former presidential
candidate John McCain -- who was just discovered to have an
aggressive brain tumor; tell us _that_ isn't God's way of thwarting
Mitch McConnell -- was born in Canal Zone, and Congress felt the
need to pass a "special bill" allowing him to be president, "just
in case.")

They needn't have bothered...the concern in 1964 over Barry
Goldwater, born in Arizona before it became a state, was settled to
everyone's satisfaction in a day or two, which converted to 2017
units is a shorter period than the blink of an eye....r

What's that in dog years?

Does it chase cars?

[RH Draney]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by RH Draney

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Former presidential candidate George Romney (father of Mitt
Romney) was born in Arizona Territory, and former presidential
candidate John McCain -- who was just discovered to have an
aggressive brain tumor; tell us _that_ isn't God's way of thwarting
Mitch McConnell -- was born in Canal Zone, and Congress felt the
need to pass a "special bill" allowing him to be president, "just
in case.")

They needn't have bothered...the concern in 1964 over Barry
Goldwater, born in Arizona before it became a state, was settled to
everyone's satisfaction in a day or two, which converted to 2017
units is a shorter period than the blink of an eye....r

What's that in dog years?

On the internet, nobody knows....r

[Lewis]

Post by Jack Campin

Post by Peter Moylan
Some of our current "hard news" is about two Senators who have had to
resign after discovering that, without knowing it, they had dual
citizenship. One was born in New Zealand but came to Australia when he
was three years old. The other was born while her Australian parents
were visiting Canada. The Murdoch press is having a field day over the
fact that they're both members of the Green party, and is doing complex
calculations over how much money they'll have to pay back in several
years of senatorial salary, travel allowances, electoral offices, etc.

What nationality is Murdoch, again?

RichWhitGuyistan.

(He's been an American citizen for 2 or 3 decades)

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Jack Campin

Post by Peter Moylan
Some of our current "hard news" is about two Senators who have had to
resign after discovering that, without knowing it, they had dual
citizenship. One was born in New Zealand but came to Australia when he
was three years old. The other was born while her Australian parents
were visiting Canada. The Murdoch press is having a field day over the
fact that they're both members of the Green party, and is doing complex
calculations over how much money they'll have to pay back in several
years of senatorial salary, travel allowances, electoral offices, etc.

What nationality is Murdoch, again?

He chose to become an American because of US laws about foreign
ownership of the press. We Australians rejoiced at that, because we
figured that he would then fall foul of Australian laws about foreign
ownership of the press. It didn't work, presumably because of rules
about who gets the bribes, because Murdoch still owns about 58% of the
Australian press. That level of concentration is exceeded only in Egypt,
New Zealand, and China.

Some of us have been campaigning for changes to the foreign ownership
laws. The reason that those campaigns have been failing is that they
have been opposed by the newspapers. It is by now well understood that
Murdoch has complete control over who will win the next federal election.

Post by Jack Campin

Post by Peter Moylan
Australian law does not allow parliamentarians to hold dual citizenship.
We're worried about divided loyalties if we should happen to be at war
with New Zealand or Canada.

Did Joh Bjelke-Petersen ever give up his NZ citizenship? (I doubt
many Kiwis were heartbroken to have lost him).

A good question, which has never been satisfactorily answered. We
Australians think of him as a South African, but apparently we were
wrong; we were judging it on his policies rather than on his citizenship.

Joh will live on in history, not because of his skills as a Premier but
because of his contributions to the comedians of this country.

[Tak To]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Jack Campin

Post by Peter Moylan
Some of our current "hard news" is about two Senators who have had to
resign after discovering that, without knowing it, they had dual
citizenship. One was born in New Zealand but came to Australia when he
was three years old. The other was born while her Australian parents
were visiting Canada. The Murdoch press is having a field day over the
fact that they're both members of the Green party, and is doing complex
calculations over how much money they'll have to pay back in several
years of senatorial salary, travel allowances, electoral offices, etc.

What nationality is Murdoch, again?

He chose to become an American because of US laws about foreign
ownership of the press. We Australians rejoiced at that, because we
figured that he would then fall foul of Australian laws about foreign
ownership of the press. It didn't work, presumably because of rules
about who gets the bribes, because Murdoch still owns about 58% of the
Australian press. That level of concentration is exceeded only in Egypt,
New Zealand, and China.

I doubt very much the figure in China.

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Tak To

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Jack Campin

Post by Peter Moylan
Some of our current "hard news" is about two Senators who have had to
resign after discovering that, without knowing it, they had dual
citizenship. One was born in New Zealand but came to Australia when he
was three years old. The other was born while her Australian parents
were visiting Canada. The Murdoch press is having a field day over the
fact that they're both members of the Green party, and is doing complex
calculations over how much money they'll have to pay back in several
years of senatorial salary, travel allowances, electoral offices, etc.

What nationality is Murdoch, again?

He chose to become an American because of US laws about foreign
ownership of the press. We Australians rejoiced at that, because we
figured that he would then fall foul of Australian laws about foreign
ownership of the press. It didn't work, presumably because of rules
about who gets the bribes, because Murdoch still owns about 58% of the
Australian press. That level of concentration is exceeded only in Egypt,
New Zealand, and China.

I doubt very much the figure in China.

Now I can't retrace where I got that information. Somewhere on the web,
so it must be true.

[GordonD]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Jack Campin

Post by Peter Moylan
Some of our current "hard news" is about two Senators who have had to
resign after discovering that, without knowing it, they had dual
citizenship. One was born in New Zealand but came to Australia when he
was three years old. The other was born while her Australian parents
were visiting Canada. The Murdoch press is having a field day over the
fact that they're both members of the Green party, and is doing complex
calculations over how much money they'll have to pay back in several
years of senatorial salary, travel allowances, electoral offices, etc.

What nationality is Murdoch, again?

He chose to become an American because of US laws about foreign
ownership of the press. We Australians rejoiced at that, because we
figured that he would then fall foul of Australian laws about foreign
ownership of the press. It didn't work, presumably because of rules
about who gets the bribes, because Murdoch still owns about 58% of the
Australian press. That level of concentration is exceeded only in Egypt,
New Zealand, and China.
Some of us have been campaigning for changes to the foreign ownership
laws. The reason that those campaigns have been failing is that they
have been opposed by the newspapers. It is by now well understood that
Murdoch has complete control over who will win the next federal election.

That's what they thought here.

[Adam Funk]

Post by Peter Moylan
Some of our current "hard news" is about two Senators who have had to
resign after discovering that, without knowing it, they had dual
citizenship. One was born in New Zealand but came to Australia when he
was three years old. The other was born while her Australian parents
were visiting Canada. The Murdoch press is having a field day over the
fact that they're both members of the Green party, and is doing complex
calculations over how much money they'll have to pay back in several
years of senatorial salary, travel allowances, electoral offices, etc.
Australian law does not allow parliamentarians to hold dual citizenship.
We're worried about divided loyalties if we should happen to be at war
with New Zealand or Canada.

Yes, a common problem!

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Peter Moylan
Some of our current "hard news" is about two Senators who have had to
resign after discovering that, without knowing it, they had dual
citizenship. One was born in New Zealand but came to Australia when he
was three years old. The other was born while her Australian parents
were visiting Canada. The Murdoch press is having a field day over the
fact that they're both members of the Green party, and is doing complex
calculations over how much money they'll have to pay back in several
years of senatorial salary, travel allowances, electoral offices, etc.
Australian law does not allow parliamentarians to hold dual citizenship.
We're worried about divided loyalties if we should happen to be at war
with New Zealand or Canada.

Yes, a common problem!

They're always telling us how warlike the Maaori are.

[Adam Funk]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Peter Moylan
Some of our current "hard news" is about two Senators who have had to
resign after discovering that, without knowing it, they had dual
citizenship. One was born in New Zealand but came to Australia when he
was three years old. The other was born while her Australian parents
were visiting Canada. The Murdoch press is having a field day over the
fact that they're both members of the Green party, and is doing complex
calculations over how much money they'll have to pay back in several
years of senatorial salary, travel allowances, electoral offices, etc.
Australian law does not allow parliamentarians to hold dual citizenship.
We're worried about divided loyalties if we should happen to be at war
with New Zealand or Canada.

Yes, a common problem!

They're always telling us how warlike the Maaori are.

It's the dancing...

[GordonD]

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Peter Moylan
Some of our current "hard news" is about two Senators who have
had to resign after discovering that, without knowing it, they
had dual citizenship. One was born in New Zealand but came to
Australia when he was three years old. The other was born while
her Australian parents were visiting Canada. The Murdoch press
is having a field day over the fact that they're both members
of the Green party, and is doing complex calculations over how
much money they'll have to pay back in several years of
senatorial salary, travel allowances, electoral offices, etc.
Australian law does not allow parliamentarians to hold dual
citizenship. We're worried about divided loyalties if we should
happen to be at war with New Zealand or Canada.

Yes, a common problem!

They're always telling us how warlike the Maaori are.

It's the dancing...

Fortunately the UK has its own version.

http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/watch-ee-gum-yorkshire-haka-13360518

If you're still in doubt, a couple of years ago a local radio newsreader
referred to 'North Yorkshire' carrying out an underground nuclear test.
(She meant to say 'North Korea'.)

[Adam Funk]

Post by GordonD

Post by Adam Funk

Post by Peter T. Daniels
They're always telling us how warlike the Maaori are.

It's the dancing...

Fortunately the UK has its own version.
http://www.examiner.co.uk/news/watch-ee-gum-yorkshire-haka-13360518

Scary stuff!

Post by GordonD
If you're still in doubt, a couple of years ago a local radio newsreader
referred to 'North Yorkshire' carrying out an underground nuclear test.
(She meant to say 'North Korea'.)

Hmm.

[Richard Tobin]

Post by Peter Moylan
Australian law does not allow parliamentarians to hold dual citizenship.
We're worried about divided loyalties if we should happen to be at war
with New Zealand or Canada.

The fact that they hold dual citizenship is a consequence of the laws
of the other country. So if, say, Russia were to award citizenship to
all the MPs of some Australian party...

-- Richard

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Peter Moylan
Australian law does not allow parliamentarians to hold dual citizenship.
We're worried about divided loyalties if we should happen to be at war
with New Zealand or Canada.

The fact that they hold dual citizenship is a consequence of the laws
of the other country. So if, say, Russia were to award citizenship to
all the MPs of some Australian party...

It's not entirely clear to me which side Russia would want to support.
In fact, I still don't know why they supported Trump in the USA. Perhaps
they thought he would cripple the country.

It has come out recently that China donates rather heavily to both of
our two biggest parties. They don't care who wins, just as long as they
have influence with whoever wins the next election.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Peter Moylan
Australian law does not allow parliamentarians to hold dual citizenship.
We're worried about divided loyalties if we should happen to be at war
with New Zealand or Canada.

The fact that they hold dual citizenship is a consequence of the laws
of the other country. So if, say, Russia were to award citizenship to
all the MPs of some Australian party...

It's not entirely clear to me which side Russia would want to support.
In fact, I still don't know why they supported Trump in the USA. Perhaps
they thought he would cripple the country.

Same reason most of his supporters in the US did: he wasn't Hillary. Putin had
good reason to suppose that she would continue Obama's policy of caution (and
sanctions).

Congress is on the verge of passing stricter sanctions in reaction to election
meddling. They're not saying whether they have enough votes to override a
presidential veto.

Post by Peter Moylan
It has come out recently that China donates rather heavily to both of
our two biggest parties. They don't care who wins, just as long as they
have influence with whoever wins the next election.

[Charles Bishop]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Peter Moylan
Australian law does not allow parliamentarians to hold dual citizenship.
We're worried about divided loyalties if we should happen to be at war
with New Zealand or Canada.

The fact that they hold dual citizenship is a consequence of the laws
of the other country. So if, say, Russia were to award citizenship to
all the MPs of some Australian party...

It's not entirely clear to me which side Russia would want to support.
In fact, I still don't know why they supported Trump in the USA. Perhaps
they thought he would cripple the country.

My understanding, without having followed it closely, is that because
Trump had dealings with Russia, Putin thought this would give him
leverage. Putin also sees Trump as not bright in the ways of politics
and thought he would be easily manipulated. Also, Clinton had expressed
unfavorable views of Putin before, when she was Secretary of State.

Post by Peter Moylan
It has come out recently that China donates rather heavily to both of
our two biggest parties. They don't care who wins, just as long as they
have influence with whoever wins the next election.

That happens here, even without foreign influence; businesses donate
heavily to both parties when there might be doubt as to who can win. I
expect it's the same everywhere.

[John Ritson]

Post by Peter Moylan

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Peter Moylan
Australian law does not allow parliamentarians to hold dual citizenship.
We're worried about divided loyalties if we should happen to be at war
with New Zealand or Canada.

The fact that they hold dual citizenship is a consequence of the laws
of the other country. So if, say, Russia were to award citizenship to
all the MPs of some Australian party...

It's not entirely clear to me which side Russia would want to support.
In fact, I still don't know why they supported Trump in the USA. Perhaps
they thought he would cripple the country.
It has come out recently that China donates rather heavily to both of
our two biggest parties. They don't care who wins, just as long as they
have influence with whoever wins the next election.

A classic example of "Half the money I spend on advertising is wasted;
the trouble is I don't know which half."

[Robert Bannister]

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Peter Moylan
Australian law does not allow parliamentarians to hold dual citizenship.
We're worried about divided loyalties if we should happen to be at war
with New Zealand or Canada.

The fact that they hold dual citizenship is a consequence of the laws
of the other country. So if, say, Russia were to award citizenship to
all the MPs of some Australian party...

I thought there were a number of countries that do not recognise
renunciation of citizenship - if you or your parents were born there,
then they can claim you for military service or anything else if they
get their hands on you.

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Peter Moylan
Australian law does not allow parliamentarians to hold dual citizenship.
We're worried about divided loyalties if we should happen to be at war
with New Zealand or Canada.

The fact that they hold dual citizenship is a consequence of the laws
of the other country. So if, say, Russia were to award citizenship to
all the MPs of some Australian party...

I thought there were a number of countries that do not recognise
renunciation of citizenship - if you or your parents were born there,
then they can claim you for military service or anything else if they
get their hands on you.

Greece and Ian are examples.
Morocco doesn't accept it in practice.

Conversely the USA is greedy.
It will claim children born there from foreign parents.
It takes a lot of effort and many repeats of sayimg
'No, I really don't want to be a US citizen'
to be rid of them,

Jan

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Peter Moylan
Australian law does not allow parliamentarians to hold dual citizenship.
We're worried about divided loyalties if we should happen to be at war
with New Zealand or Canada.

The fact that they hold dual citizenship is a consequence of the laws
of the other country. So if, say, Russia were to award citizenship to
all the MPs of some Australian party...

I thought there were a number of countries that do not recognise
renunciation of citizenship - if you or your parents were born there,
then they can claim you for military service or anything else if they
get their hands on you.

Greece and Ian are examples.

Who's Ian?

Post by J. J. Lodder
Morocco doesn't accept it in practice.
Conversely the USA is greedy.

?? Awarding citizenship (via the Fourteenth Amendment) to all offspring of former
slaves was "greedy"??

First you demand a military dictatorship, now you demand perpetual serfdom.

Clearly you propagandize for the wrong country.

Post by J. J. Lodder
It will claim children born there from foreign parents.
It takes a lot of effort and many repeats of sayimg
'No, I really don't want to be a US citizen'
to be rid of them,

What's the downside to US citizenship?

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Mon, 24 Jul 2017 04:42:44 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Peter Moylan
Australian law does not allow parliamentarians to hold dual citizenship.
We're worried about divided loyalties if we should happen to be at war
with New Zealand or Canada.

The fact that they hold dual citizenship is a consequence of the laws
of the other country. So if, say, Russia were to award citizenship to
all the MPs of some Australian party...

I thought there were a number of countries that do not recognise
renunciation of citizenship - if you or your parents were born there,
then they can claim you for military service or anything else if they
get their hands on you.

Greece and Ian are examples.

Who's Ian?

He's non-rhotic and has dropped the r from his name.

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by J. J. Lodder
Morocco doesn't accept it in practice.
Conversely the USA is greedy.

?? Awarding citizenship (via the Fourteenth Amendment) to all offspring of former
slaves was "greedy"??
First you demand a military dictatorship, now you demand perpetual serfdom.
Clearly you propagandize for the wrong country.

Post by J. J. Lodder
It will claim children born there from foreign parents.
It takes a lot of effort and many repeats of sayimg
'No, I really don't want to be a US citizen'
to be rid of them,

What's the downside to US citizenship?

[Jack Campin]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Robert Bannister
I thought there were a number of countries that do not recognise
renunciation of citizenship - if you or your parents were born
there, then they can claim you for military service or anything
else if they get their hands on you.

Conversely the USA is greedy.

?? Awarding citizenship (via the Fourteenth Amendment) to all
offspring of former slaves was "greedy"??

The previous poster will have been thinking of the US tax system,
which is unusual and maybe unique in requiring emigrant citizens
to file tax returns. (For most countries you don't even need to
renounce your citizenship to get the tax collectors off your back,
simply living somewhere else will do it).

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------
e m a i l : j a c k @ c a m p i n . m e . u k
Jack Campin, 11 Third Street, Newtongrange, Midlothian EH22 4PU, Scotland
mobile [phone] <http://www.campin.me.uk> Twitter: JackCampin

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Jack Campin

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Robert Bannister
I thought there were a number of countries that do not recognise
renunciation of citizenship - if you or your parents were born
there, then they can claim you for military service or anything
else if they get their hands on you.

Conversely the USA is greedy.

?? Awarding citizenship (via the Fourteenth Amendment) to all
offspring of former slaves was "greedy"??

The previous poster will have been thinking of the US tax system,
which is unusual and maybe unique in requiring emigrant citizens
to file tax returns. (For most countries you don't even need to
renounce your citizenship to get the tax collectors off your back,
simply living somewhere else will do it).

I've never heard of _dual_ citizens (not the same thing at all) abroad being assessed
income taxes.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Mon, 24 Jul 2017 05:37:37 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Jack Campin

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Robert Bannister
I thought there were a number of countries that do not recognise
renunciation of citizenship - if you or your parents were born
there, then they can claim you for military service or anything
else if they get their hands on you.

Conversely the USA is greedy.

?? Awarding citizenship (via the Fourteenth Amendment) to all
offspring of former slaves was "greedy"??

The previous poster will have been thinking of the US tax system,
which is unusual and maybe unique in requiring emigrant citizens
to file tax returns. (For most countries you don't even need to
renounce your citizenship to get the tax collectors off your back,
simply living somewhere else will do it).

I've never heard of _dual_ citizens (not the same thing at all) abroad being assessed
income taxes.

This is about Boris Johnson, at the time Mayor of London, planning to
relinguish his US citizenship.
https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/02/boris-Johnson-renounces-us-citizenship-tax-bill-mayor-london/385554/

Feb 17, 2015

Extracts:

Johnson's British parents were living in New York City when he was
born, making him an American citizen. That has cost him. In
November, Johnson was blustering (as he is wont to do) about the
U.S. government trying to hit him with a massive tax bill. Johnson
sold a house in London for a cool £730,000 profit, and as U.S.
citizens are required to pay capital-gains tax on overseas
transactions, Uncle Sam sent Mayor Boris a bill.

He's clearly for all intents and purposes a Briton (despite joking
with David Letterman a few years ago that, as a natural-born U.S.
citizen, he could run for president), and comes to the current
situation only because of the collision of two unusual features in
American law: first, birthright citizenship, the granting of a
passport to any baby born here; and second, the fact that the law
requires Americans to pay taxes on all global income, which as The
Wall Street Journal notes is not a universal practice.

[Cheryl]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Jack Campin

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Robert Bannister
I thought there were a number of countries that do not recognise
renunciation of citizenship - if you or your parents were born
there, then they can claim you for military service or anything
else if they get their hands on you.

Conversely the USA is greedy.

?? Awarding citizenship (via the Fourteenth Amendment) to all
offspring of former slaves was "greedy"??

The previous poster will have been thinking of the US tax system,
which is unusual and maybe unique in requiring emigrant citizens
to file tax returns. (For most countries you don't even need to
renounce your citizenship to get the tax collectors off your back,
simply living somewhere else will do it).

I've never heard of _dual_ citizens (not the same thing at all) abroad being assessed
income taxes.

See my former posts.

https://www.sunlife.ca/ca/Learn+and+Plan/Money/Financial+planning+tips/What+dual+citizenship+can+mean+for+your+taxes?vgnLocale=en_CA

https://tinyurl.com/y7lfhuqb

http://globalnews.ca/news/3309306/u-s-sues-vancouver-dual-citizen-for-over-1m-for-not-reporting-accounts/

https://tinyurl.com/zhdv5de

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/fatca-facts-what-canadians-need-to-know-about-new-u-s-tax-law-1.2493882

https://tinyurl.com/pxla4lr

[Richard Tobin]

Post by Peter T. Daniels
I've never heard of _dual_ citizens (not the same thing at all) abroad
being assessed income taxes.

I know several US/UK citizens, and they all complain about it. The
possible penalties for trivial errors are extreme. All "foreign"
accounts have to be declared, and this appears to include things like
supermarket loyalty cards.

-- Richard

[Janet]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Jack Campin

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Robert Bannister
I thought there were a number of countries that do not recognise
renunciation of citizenship - if you or your parents were born
there, then they can claim you for military service or anything
else if they get their hands on you.

Conversely the USA is greedy.

?? Awarding citizenship (via the Fourteenth Amendment) to all
offspring of former slaves was "greedy"??

The previous poster will have been thinking of the US tax system,
which is unusual and maybe unique in requiring emigrant citizens
to file tax returns. (For most countries you don't even need to
renounce your citizenship to get the tax collectors off your back,
simply living somewhere else will do it).

I've never heard of _dual_ citizens (not the same thing at all) abroad being assessed
income taxes.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/08/boris-johnson-
renounces-us-citizenship-record-2016-uk-foreign-secretary

" Boris Johnson has renounced his US citizenship, ending years of
ambiguous loyalties and probably ridding himself of a hefty tax bill.

A list released by the US Treasury department showed the UK foreign
secretary was one of 5,411 individuals to renounce his American
citizenship in 2016.

Johnson was born in New York when his parents worked there, but has not
lived there since he was five years old. His decision does not appear to
be an attempt to distance himself from the politics of Donald Trump, but
may instead be a move to ensure he is out of reach of America?s Internal
Revenue Service (IRS).

In 2014 he publicly said that the US was trying to hit him for tax on
the sale of his home in Islington, north London, something he said he
regarded as ?absolutely outrageous?, although he later reportedly paid
the demand. The US tax authorities have been mounting a campaign to
crack down on the earnings of dual nationals."

Janet

[Mack A. Damia]

Post by Janet

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Jack Campin

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Robert Bannister
I thought there were a number of countries that do not recognise
renunciation of citizenship - if you or your parents were born
there, then they can claim you for military service or anything
else if they get their hands on you.

Conversely the USA is greedy.

?? Awarding citizenship (via the Fourteenth Amendment) to all
offspring of former slaves was "greedy"??

The previous poster will have been thinking of the US tax system,
which is unusual and maybe unique in requiring emigrant citizens
to file tax returns. (For most countries you don't even need to
renounce your citizenship to get the tax collectors off your back,
simply living somewhere else will do it).

I've never heard of _dual_ citizens (not the same thing at all) abroad being assessed
income taxes.

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/feb/08/boris-johnson-
renounces-us-citizenship-record-2016-uk-foreign-secretary
" Boris Johnson has renounced his US citizenship, ending years of
ambiguous loyalties and probably ridding himself of a hefty tax bill.
A list released by the US Treasury department showed the UK foreign
secretary was one of 5,411 individuals to renounce his American
citizenship in 2016.
Johnson was born in New York when his parents worked there, but has not
lived there since he was five years old. His decision does not appear to
be an attempt to distance himself from the politics of Donald Trump, but
may instead be a move to ensure he is out of reach of America?s Internal
Revenue Service (IRS).
In 2014 he publicly said that the US was trying to hit him for tax on
the sale of his home in Islington, north London, something he said he
regarded as ?absolutely outrageous?, although he later reportedly paid
the demand. The US tax authorities have been mounting a campaign to
crack down on the earnings of dual nationals."

I am not questioning the tax based on dual citizenship, but what I am
questioning is the enormous amount of honesty put forth by Boris
regarding (1) the original purchase of the home and (2) its sale.

The feds (IRS) have nothing to do with the purchase, and there is no
reason, as far as I can see, for them to know about it. All
legalities are local, and sales/purchases are recorded at the county
level. Taxation (at least in Pennsylvania) involves school district
tax, county tax and maybe local tax; the feds have nothing to do with
it.

I have owned two houses in Pennsylvania. There were never any federal
forms to fill in, as far as I can recall, and I don't remember any
state forms, either, but it does depend on the state, too.

The IRS depends a lot on honesty, but there is never a provision where
you report the purchase of a house, and you only report a profit on
the sale *voluntarily*. Real estate brokers in the USA are
responsible for issuing a 1099-S form that says how much you sold the
house for, and a copy goes to the IRS, as well, but brokers in England
do not have this responsibility. So the questions are how did the IRS
know that Boris owned a home, how much did he pay for it, and how much
did he sell it for? How does the IRS get this information? Cost of
major improvements to the home and other expenses can be figured in,
too. If you buy a home for $50,000, put another $50,000 into it, and
sell it for $100,000, you have NO capital gains tax to pay.

Methinks there is more to this than meets the eye.

http://homeguides.sfgate.com/irs-capital-gains-real-estate-63752.html

[Janet]

Subject: Re: Hard News
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english

[quoted text muted]
In 2014 he publicly said that the US was trying to hit him for tax on
the sale of his home in Islington, north London, something he said he
regarded as ?absolutely outrageous?, although he later reportedly paid
the demand. The US tax authorities have been mounting a campaign to
crack down on the earnings of dual nationals."

I am not questioning the tax based on dual citizenship, but what I am
questioning is the enormous amount of honesty put forth by Boris
regarding (1) the original purchase of the home and (2) its sale.
The feds (IRS) have nothing to do with the purchase, and there is no
reason, as far as I can see, for them to know about it.

He's a high profile public figure whose exploits and lifestyle are
frequently mentioned in UK media. Here you go; 2 second google

http://www.homesandproperty.co.uk/property-news/boriss-property-ladder-
29304.html


All

legalities are local, and sales/purchases are recorded at the county
level.

In UK, property sales /purchases are recorded in a national land
registry anybody can check. The dates an address was sold and prices
paid are even more widely available on numerous property-value websites.

<..>
So the questions are how did the IRS

know that Boris owned a home, how much did he pay for it, and how much
did he sell it for? How does the IRS get this information?

See above.

Janet.

[David Kleinecke]

Post by Janet

Subject: Re: Hard News
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english

[quoted text muted]
In 2014 he publicly said that the US was trying to hit him for tax on
the sale of his home in Islington, north London, something he said he
regarded as ?absolutely outrageous?, although he later reportedly paid
the demand. The US tax authorities have been mounting a campaign to
crack down on the earnings of dual nationals."

I am not questioning the tax based on dual citizenship, but what I am
questioning is the enormous amount of honesty put forth by Boris
regarding (1) the original purchase of the home and (2) its sale.
The feds (IRS) have nothing to do with the purchase, and there is no
reason, as far as I can see, for them to know about it.

He's a high profile public figure whose exploits and lifestyle are
frequently mentioned in UK media. Here you go; 2 second google
http://www.homesandproperty.co.uk/property-news/boriss-property-ladder-
29304.html
All

legalities are local, and sales/purchases are recorded at the county
level.

In UK, property sales /purchases are recorded in a national land
registry anybody can check. The dates an address was sold and prices
paid are even more widely available on numerous property-value websites.
<..>
So the questions are how did the IRS

know that Boris owned a home, how much did he pay for it, and how much
did he sell it for? How does the IRS get this information?

See above.

In most parts of the US a sale and the price paid is usually
deducible from the tax accessor's records.

[Mack A. Damia]

On Mon, 24 Jul 2017 17:25:12 -0700 (PDT), David Kleinecke

Post by David Kleinecke

Post by Janet

Subject: Re: Hard News
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english

[quoted text muted]
In 2014 he publicly said that the US was trying to hit him for tax on
the sale of his home in Islington, north London, something he said he
regarded as ?absolutely outrageous?, although he later reportedly paid
the demand. The US tax authorities have been mounting a campaign to
crack down on the earnings of dual nationals."

I am not questioning the tax based on dual citizenship, but what I am
questioning is the enormous amount of honesty put forth by Boris
regarding (1) the original purchase of the home and (2) its sale.
The feds (IRS) have nothing to do with the purchase, and there is no
reason, as far as I can see, for them to know about it.

He's a high profile public figure whose exploits and lifestyle are
frequently mentioned in UK media. Here you go; 2 second google
http://www.homesandproperty.co.uk/property-news/boriss-property-ladder-
29304.html
All

legalities are local, and sales/purchases are recorded at the county
level.

In UK, property sales /purchases are recorded in a national land
registry anybody can check. The dates an address was sold and prices
paid are even more widely available on numerous property-value websites.
<..>
So the questions are how did the IRS

know that Boris owned a home, how much did he pay for it, and how much
did he sell it for? How does the IRS get this information?

See above.

In most parts of the US a sale and the price paid is usually
deducible from the tax accessor's records.

What does this answer? Not trying to be flippant.

It is all about "DATA BASES".

A story: A Mexican guy I know wanted to get a U.S. visa - a simple
tourist visa, but he had been in the USA illegally. Not only that,
but he had been involved in an automobile accident and had been
hospitalized for a while. This was in the Indio, CA area.

He was concerned that his application would be flagged because the
U.S. Customs and Border Protection would catch that he had been
hospitalized, but there is no way, presently, at least, that the USCBP
could access EVERY hospital in-patient data-base in the USA and run it
against applications.

I told him to just submit his application, say nothing about being in
the USA previously or his hospitalization. He got the visa.

There are few centralized data-bases. Even different federal agencies
have their own respective data-bases, and unless there is something
very specific, they are not cross-checked. And it's even more
problematic when the issue is binational.

[Rich Ulrich]

On Mon, 24 Jul 2017 18:03:04 -0700, Mack A. Damia

Post by Mack A. Damia
On Mon, 24 Jul 2017 17:25:12 -0700 (PDT), David Kleinecke

Post by David Kleinecke

Post by Janet

Subject: Re: Hard News
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english

[quoted text muted]
In 2014 he publicly said that the US was trying to hit him for tax on
the sale of his home in Islington, north London, something he said he
regarded as ?absolutely outrageous?, although he later reportedly paid
the demand. The US tax authorities have been mounting a campaign to
crack down on the earnings of dual nationals."

I am not questioning the tax based on dual citizenship, but what I am
questioning is the enormous amount of honesty put forth by Boris
regarding (1) the original purchase of the home and (2) its sale.
The feds (IRS) have nothing to do with the purchase, and there is no
reason, as far as I can see, for them to know about it.

He's a high profile public figure whose exploits and lifestyle are
frequently mentioned in UK media. Here you go; 2 second google
http://www.homesandproperty.co.uk/property-news/boriss-property-ladder-
29304.html
All

legalities are local, and sales/purchases are recorded at the county
level.

In UK, property sales /purchases are recorded in a national land
registry anybody can check. The dates an address was sold and prices
paid are even more widely available on numerous property-value websites.
<..>
So the questions are how did the IRS

know that Boris owned a home, how much did he pay for it, and how much
did he sell it for? How does the IRS get this information?

See above.

In most parts of the US a sale and the price paid is usually
deducible from the tax accessor's records.

What does this answer? Not trying to be flippant.
It is all about "DATA BASES".

I thought that Janet's implilcation was that someone dropped a dime/
narked him out/ reported his unpaid taxes for the whistle-blower's
percentage of the tax to be collected on the capital gains. Assuming
that that tax is one which might apply.

[Janet]

Post by Rich Ulrich

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by David Kleinecke

Post by Janet
He's a high profile public figure whose exploits and lifestyle are
frequently mentioned in UK media. Here you go; 2 second google
http://www.homesandproperty.co.uk/property-news/boriss-property-ladder-
29304.html
All

Post by Mack A. Damia
legalities are local, and sales/purchases are recorded at the county
level.

In UK, property sales /purchases are recorded in a national land
registry anybody can check. The dates an address was sold and prices
paid are even more widely available on numerous property-value websites.
<..>
So the questions are how did the IRS

Post by Mack A. Damia
know that Boris owned a home, how much did he pay for it, and how much
did he sell it for? How does the IRS get this information?

See above.

In most parts of the US a sale and the price paid is usually
deducible from the tax accessor's records.

What does this answer? Not trying to be flippant.
It is all about "DATA BASES".

I thought that Janet's implilcation was that someone dropped a dime/
narked him out/ reported his unpaid taxes for the whistle-blower's
percentage of the tax to be collected on the capital gains. Assuming
that that tax is one which might apply.

No,that is not what I implied.

The IRS surely makes full use of numerous open public databases in
the UK when tracking very famous dual-citizen millionnaires in the hope
of taxing their UK assets. It's not rocket science.

Janet

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Tuesday, July 25, 2017 at 3:25:52 AM UTC-4, Janet wrote:

[B. Johnson]

Post by Janet
The IRS surely makes full use of numerous open public databases in
the UK when tracking very famous dual-citizen millionnaires in the hope
of taxing their UK assets. It's not rocket science.

You imagine the IRS has the personnel to devote to such things? They've had to
cut way back on audits domestically, because the republican Congress keeps
cutting their operating budget.

[Janet]

Post by Peter T. Daniels
[B. Johnson]

Post by Janet
The IRS surely makes full use of numerous open public databases in
the UK when tracking very famous dual-citizen millionnaires in the hope
of taxing their UK assets. It's not rocket science.

You imagine the IRS has the personnel to devote to such things?

read it for yourself

https://www.taxesforexpats.com/expat-tax-advice/how-irs-can-find-
you.html

"Multiple Ways the IRS Can Track You Down If You Failed to File US Tax
Returns While Living Abroad".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Account_Tax_Compliance_Act

"The Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA) is a 2010 United States
federal law to enforce the requirement for United States persons
including those living outside the U.S. to file yearly reports on their
non-U.S. financial accounts to the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network
(FinCEN). It requires all non-US ('foreign') financial institutions
(FFIs) to search their records for indicia indicating 'US-person'
status, such as a US birthplace, and to report the assets and identities
of such persons to the US Department of the Treasury.

<...>Effect on "accidental Americans". The reporting requirements and
penalties apply to all US citizens, including accidental Americans,
those who are unaware that they have US citizenship. Since the US
considers all persons born in the U.S., and most foreign-born persons
with American parents, to be citizens, FATCA affects a large number of
foreign residents, who are unaware that the US considers them citizens".

Since 2010 thousands are now relinquishing their US citizenship.

Janet

[Cheryl]

Post by Janet

Post by Peter T. Daniels
[B. Johnson]

Post by Janet
The IRS surely makes full use of numerous open public databases in
the UK when tracking very famous dual-citizen millionnaires in the hope
of taxing their UK assets. It's not rocket science.

You imagine the IRS has the personnel to devote to such things?

read it for yourself
https://www.taxesforexpats.com/expat-tax-advice/how-irs-can-find-
you.html
"Multiple Ways the IRS Can Track You Down If You Failed to File US Tax
Returns While Living Abroad".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Account_Tax_Compliance_Act
"The Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA) is a 2010 United States
federal law to enforce the requirement for United States persons
including those living outside the U.S. to file yearly reports on their
non-U.S. financial accounts to the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network
(FinCEN). It requires all non-US ('foreign') financial institutions
(FFIs) to search their records for indicia indicating 'US-person'
status, such as a US birthplace, and to report the assets and identities
of such persons to the US Department of the Treasury.
<...>Effect on "accidental Americans". The reporting requirements and
penalties apply to all US citizens, including accidental Americans,
those who are unaware that they have US citizenship. Since the US
considers all persons born in the U.S., and most foreign-born persons
with American parents, to be citizens, FATCA affects a large number of
foreign residents, who are unaware that the US considers them citizens".
Since 2010 thousands are now relinquishing their US citizenship.

Which is a bit surprising considering how expensive and complicated it
is to do so.

It is really unjust that a government can create dual citizens out of
people who, under US law, were never that in the first place, and then
make it so hard for them to get back to their original citizenship status.

[Janet]

In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@med.mun.ca
says...

Post by Cheryl

Post by Janet

Post by Peter T. Daniels
[B. Johnson]

Post by Janet
The IRS surely makes full use of numerous open public databases in
the UK when tracking very famous dual-citizen millionnaires in the hope
of taxing their UK assets. It's not rocket science.

You imagine the IRS has the personnel to devote to such things?

read it for yourself
https://www.taxesforexpats.com/expat-tax-advice/how-irs-can-find-
you.html
"Multiple Ways the IRS Can Track You Down If You Failed to File US Tax
Returns While Living Abroad".
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Account_Tax_Compliance_Act
"The Foreign Account Tax Compliance Act (FATCA) is a 2010 United States
federal law to enforce the requirement for United States persons
including those living outside the U.S. to file yearly reports on their
non-U.S. financial accounts to the Financial Crimes Enforcement Network
(FinCEN). It requires all non-US ('foreign') financial institutions
(FFIs) to search their records for indicia indicating 'US-person'
status, such as a US birthplace, and to report the assets and identities
of such persons to the US Department of the Treasury.
<...>Effect on "accidental Americans". The reporting requirements and
penalties apply to all US citizens, including accidental Americans,
those who are unaware that they have US citizenship. Since the US
considers all persons born in the U.S., and most foreign-born persons
with American parents, to be citizens, FATCA affects a large number of
foreign residents, who are unaware that the US considers them citizens".
Since 2010 thousands are now relinquishing their US citizenship.

Which is a bit surprising considering how expensive and complicated it
is to do so.

but presumably cheaper than a wealthy person's potential US tax
liability

Post by Cheryl
It is really unjust that a government can create dual citizens out of
people who, under US law, were never that in the first place, and then
make it so hard for them to get back to their original citizenship status.

What's even more outrageous is that a UK citizen resident in UK who
makes a UK property transaction that is NOT subject to capital gains tax
in UK law can then be hit by an IRS demand for CG tax in the USA,
where he doesn't live and didn't buy/sell the property.

In UK, sale of a primary residence is not CG taxable. Yet that's what
the IRS were chasing Boris for.

Janet.

[Richard Tobin]

Post by Janet

Post by Cheryl

Post by Janet
Since 2010 thousands are now relinquishing their US citizenship.

Which is a bit surprising considering how expensive and complicated it
is to do so.

but presumably cheaper than a wealthy person's potential US tax
liability

For sufficiently wealthy people, to relinquish their US citizenship
they have to pay capitals gains tax on all their possessions, as if
they sold them immediately before renouncing their citzenship.

Wikipedia refers to:

https://www.law.cornell.edu/uscode/text/26/877A

-- Richard

[Mack A. Damia]

Post by Janet

Post by Rich Ulrich

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by David Kleinecke

Post by Janet
He's a high profile public figure whose exploits and lifestyle are
frequently mentioned in UK media. Here you go; 2 second google
http://www.homesandproperty.co.uk/property-news/boriss-property-ladder-
29304.html
All

Post by Mack A. Damia
legalities are local, and sales/purchases are recorded at the county
level.

In UK, property sales /purchases are recorded in a national land
registry anybody can check. The dates an address was sold and prices
paid are even more widely available on numerous property-value websites.
<..>
So the questions are how did the IRS

Post by Mack A. Damia
know that Boris owned a home, how much did he pay for it, and how much
did he sell it for? How does the IRS get this information?

See above.

In most parts of the US a sale and the price paid is usually
deducible from the tax accessor's records.

What does this answer? Not trying to be flippant.
It is all about "DATA BASES".

I thought that Janet's implilcation was that someone dropped a dime/
narked him out/ reported his unpaid taxes for the whistle-blower's
percentage of the tax to be collected on the capital gains. Assuming
that that tax is one which might apply.

No,that is not what I implied.
The IRS surely makes full use of numerous open public databases in
the UK when tracking very famous dual-citizen millionnaires in the hope
of taxing their UK assets. It's not rocket science.

I am not disagreeing with you, but rather, Boris has led a checkered
past, and he has been under investigation for possible criminal
activities. He has a neon sign above his head: "Investigate me".

If Boris left the USA when he was five years old, I am wondering if he
even had a Social Security number; there would really be no record of
him as a U.S. citizen except hospital/birth records, and the IRS
doesn't mess around with those as Boris could have died in Timbuktu
when he was six. Who would know?

I think Boris brought this mess on himself, and then cried, "Wolf!"

[Janet]

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by Janet
The IRS surely makes full use of numerous open public databases in
the UK when tracking very famous dual-citizen millionnaires in the hope
of taxing their UK assets. It's not rocket science.

I am not disagreeing with you, but rather, Boris has led a checkered
past, and he has been under investigation for possible criminal
activities. He has a neon sign above his head: "Investigate me".
If Boris left the USA when he was five years old, I am wondering if he
even had a Social Security number; there would really be no record of
him as a U.S. citizen except hospital/birth records, and the IRS
doesn't mess around with those as Boris could have died in Timbuktu
when he was six. Who would know?
I think Boris brought this mess on himself, and then cried, "Wolf!"

Hardly. He's in the same position as many thousands of wealthy people
worldwide who are considered by the USA to have US citizenship by
birthplace or parentage and are now subject to compulsory FATCA
notification to the US by their non-American banks. That's why so many
are now relinquishing their US citizenship.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Account_Tax_Compliance_Act

Janet.

[Mack A. Damia]

Post by Janet

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by Janet
The IRS surely makes full use of numerous open public databases in
the UK when tracking very famous dual-citizen millionnaires in the hope
of taxing their UK assets. It's not rocket science.

I am not disagreeing with you, but rather, Boris has led a checkered
past, and he has been under investigation for possible criminal
activities. He has a neon sign above his head: "Investigate me".
If Boris left the USA when he was five years old, I am wondering if he
even had a Social Security number; there would really be no record of
him as a U.S. citizen except hospital/birth records, and the IRS
doesn't mess around with those as Boris could have died in Timbuktu
when he was six. Who would know?
I think Boris brought this mess on himself, and then cried, "Wolf!"

Hardly. He's in the same position as many thousands of wealthy people
worldwide who are considered by the USA to have US citizenship by
birthplace or parentage and are now subject to compulsory FATCA
notification to the US by their non-American banks. That's why so many
are now relinquishing their US citizenship.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Account_Tax_Compliance_Act

But you are conveniently overlooking the main point, which is that
Boris was five years old when he left the USA, and in those five
years, if you check his biography, he lived outside of the USA for
part of the time. As I said, he could have died in Timbuktu one year
after he left. Record keeping is not all that exact.

He brought this mess on himself, and then cried, "Wolf!"

FATCA: "It requires all non-US ('foreign') financial institutions
(FFIs) to search their records for indicia indicating 'US-person'
status, such as a US birthplace, and to report the assets and
identities of such persons to the US Department of the Treasury."

And you're complaining about "apple pie"? No law passed in the USA
can make foreign governments do ANYTHING!

"The U.S. has yet to comply with FATCA itself, because as of 2017, it
has not yet provided the promised reciprocity to its partner countries
and it has failed to sign up to the Common Reporting Standard."

[Mack A. Damia]

On Tue, 25 Jul 2017 10:11:06 -0700, Mack A. Damia

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by Janet

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by Janet
The IRS surely makes full use of numerous open public databases in
the UK when tracking very famous dual-citizen millionnaires in the hope
of taxing their UK assets. It's not rocket science.

I am not disagreeing with you, but rather, Boris has led a checkered
past, and he has been under investigation for possible criminal
activities. He has a neon sign above his head: "Investigate me".
If Boris left the USA when he was five years old, I am wondering if he
even had a Social Security number; there would really be no record of
him as a U.S. citizen except hospital/birth records, and the IRS
doesn't mess around with those as Boris could have died in Timbuktu
when he was six. Who would know?
I think Boris brought this mess on himself, and then cried, "Wolf!"

Hardly. He's in the same position as many thousands of wealthy people
worldwide who are considered by the USA to have US citizenship by
birthplace or parentage and are now subject to compulsory FATCA
notification to the US by their non-American banks. That's why so many
are now relinquishing their US citizenship.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Account_Tax_Compliance_Act

But you are conveniently overlooking the main point, which is that
Boris was five years old when he left the USA, and in those five
years, if you check his biography, he lived outside of the USA for
part of the time. As I said, he could have died in Timbuktu one year
after he left. Record keeping is not all that exact.
He brought this mess on himself, and then cried, "Wolf!"
FATCA: "It requires all non-US ('foreign') financial institutions
(FFIs) to search their records for indicia indicating 'US-person'
status, such as a US birthplace, and to report the assets and
identities of such persons to the US Department of the Treasury."
And you're complaining about "apple pie"? No law passed in the USA
can make foreign governments do ANYTHING!
"The U.S. has yet to comply with FATCA itself, because as of 2017, it
has not yet provided the promised reciprocity to its partner countries
and it has failed to sign up to the Common Reporting Standard."

Apparently, FATCAT has provisions that force other counties to comply.
It's America's greening of the world that will only have disastrous
results.

Read this:

https://www.forbes.com/sites/robertwood/2014/08/19/ten-facts-about-fatca-americas-manifest-destiny-law-changing-banking-worldwide/#3b852c101305

I still say Johnson brought this on himself. If you read comments
here and elsewhere, there are many ex-pats and dual citizens who do
not pay U.S. tax.

Well, he did. He had a U.S. passport that brought attention to his
dual citizenship to the feds.

[Janet]

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by Janet

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by Janet
The IRS surely makes full use of numerous open public databases in
the UK when tracking very famous dual-citizen millionnaires in the hope
of taxing their UK assets. It's not rocket science.

I am not disagreeing with you, but rather, Boris has led a checkered
past, and he has been under investigation for possible criminal
activities. He has a neon sign above his head: "Investigate me".
If Boris left the USA when he was five years old, I am wondering if he
even had a Social Security number; there would really be no record of
him as a U.S. citizen except hospital/birth records, and the IRS
doesn't mess around with those as Boris could have died in Timbuktu
when he was six. Who would know?
I think Boris brought this mess on himself, and then cried, "Wolf!"

Hardly. He's in the same position as many thousands of wealthy people
worldwide who are considered by the USA to have US citizenship by
birthplace or parentage and are now subject to compulsory FATCA
notification to the US by their non-American banks. That's why so many
are now relinquishing their US citizenship.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Account_Tax_Compliance_Act

already did :-(

Post by Mack A. Damia
I still say Johnson brought this on himself. If you read comments
here and elsewhere, there are many ex-pats and dual citizens who do
not pay U.S. tax.

because their assets are so modest. Boris is very wealthy, so he was
lowhanging fruit to the IRS tax grab.

Post by Mack A. Damia
Well, he did.

He has very little choice but to pay up; the alternative was to face
charges when he travelled to USA on govt business. But it was
outrageoeus for the IRS to charge US tax on a UK transaction which
doesn't even qualify for UK taxation.

http://www.londonlovesbusiness.com/business-news/politics/how-rich-is-
boris-johnson/12130.article

Post by Mack A. Damia
He had a U.S. passport that brought attention to his
dual citizenship to the feds.

So? Why on earth should someone with legitimate dual citizenship NOT
have, use, and renew his US passport? It's nothing unusual for dual
citizens to have two, specifically for travel to countries that won't
let you in if your passport shows you previously visited Country X.

Janet.

[Mack A. Damia]

Post by Janet

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by Janet

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by Janet
The IRS surely makes full use of numerous open public databases in
the UK when tracking very famous dual-citizen millionnaires in the hope
of taxing their UK assets. It's not rocket science.

I am not disagreeing with you, but rather, Boris has led a checkered
past, and he has been under investigation for possible criminal
activities. He has a neon sign above his head: "Investigate me".
If Boris left the USA when he was five years old, I am wondering if he
even had a Social Security number; there would really be no record of
him as a U.S. citizen except hospital/birth records, and the IRS
doesn't mess around with those as Boris could have died in Timbuktu
when he was six. Who would know?
I think Boris brought this mess on himself, and then cried, "Wolf!"

Hardly. He's in the same position as many thousands of wealthy people
worldwide who are considered by the USA to have US citizenship by
birthplace or parentage and are now subject to compulsory FATCA
notification to the US by their non-American banks. That's why so many
are now relinquishing their US citizenship.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_Account_Tax_Compliance_Act

already did :-(

Post by Mack A. Damia
I still say Johnson brought this on himself. If you read comments
here and elsewhere, there are many ex-pats and dual citizens who do
not pay U.S. tax.

because their assets are so modest. Boris is very wealthy, so he was
lowhanging fruit to the IRS tax grab.

Post by Mack A. Damia
Well, he did.

He has very little choice but to pay up; the alternative was to face
charges when he travelled to USA on govt business. But it was
outrageoeus for the IRS to charge US tax on a UK transaction which
doesn't even qualify for UK taxation.
http://www.londonlovesbusiness.com/business-news/politics/how-rich-is-
boris-johnson/12130.article

Post by Mack A. Damia
He had a U.S. passport that brought attention to his
dual citizenship to the feds.

So? Why on earth should someone with legitimate dual citizenship NOT
have, use, and renew his US passport? It's nothing unusual for dual
citizens to have two, specifically for travel to countries that won't
let you in if your passport shows you previously visited Country X.

Don't miss my point: There are many who are dual citizens and who
stay under the radar. They don't pay. The fact that Boris had a U.S.
passport registered him with the U.S. federal government, so they knew
he was a dual citizen.

I am not arguing the merits of the IRS's witch hunt. If you have
followed my thinking in here, you ought to know where I stand.

[Richard Tobin]

Post by Janet

Post by Mack A. Damia
He had a U.S. passport that brought attention to his
dual citizenship to the feds.

So? Why on earth should someone with legitimate dual citizenship NOT
have, use, and renew his US passport? It's nothing unusual for dual
citizens to have two, specifically for travel to countries that won't
let you in if your passport shows you previously visited Country X.

Also, a US citizen may not legally enter or leave the US on a non-US
passport.

-- Richard

[Richard Tobin]

Post by Janet
Hardly. He's in the same position as many thousands of wealthy people
worldwide who are considered by the USA to have US citizenship by
birthplace or parentage and are now subject to compulsory FATCA
notification to the US by their non-American banks. That's why so many
are now relinquishing their US citizenship.

Unfortunately so are many people who are not wealthy at all, and it now
costs thousands of dollars to renounce US citizenship.

-- Richard

[Mack A. Damia]

Post by Janet

Subject: Re: Hard News
Newsgroups: alt.usage.english

[quoted text muted]
In 2014 he publicly said that the US was trying to hit him for tax on
the sale of his home in Islington, north London, something he said he
regarded as ?absolutely outrageous?, although he later reportedly paid
the demand. The US tax authorities have been mounting a campaign to
crack down on the earnings of dual nationals."

I am not questioning the tax based on dual citizenship, but what I am
questioning is the enormous amount of honesty put forth by Boris
regarding (1) the original purchase of the home and (2) its sale.
The feds (IRS) have nothing to do with the purchase, and there is no
reason, as far as I can see, for them to know about it.

He's a high profile public figure whose exploits and lifestyle are
frequently mentioned in UK media. Here you go; 2 second google
http://www.homesandproperty.co.uk/property-news/boriss-property-ladder-
29304.html
All

legalities are local, and sales/purchases are recorded at the county
level.

In UK, property sales /purchases are recorded in a national land
registry anybody can check. The dates an address was sold and prices
paid are even more widely available on numerous property-value websites.
<..>
So the questions are how did the IRS

know that Boris owned a home, how much did he pay for it, and how much
did he sell it for? How does the IRS get this information?

See above.

Still doesn't answer the question. Does the National Land Registry
indicate that a person has dual citizenship and then specifies the
country? I doubt it. They don't care.

Would the Registry indicate that Boris is a U.S. citizen, too, and
also give his U.S. Social Security number (if he has one)? More
doubt. How would they know it (if he has one)?

How many people are name "Boris Johnson" in the UK? You might be
surprised. How does the registry identify him from any other Boris
Johnson? How would the U.S. tax people know him from others? See my
point?

Not doubting the account, but there has to be more to it.

[Janet]

Post by Mack A. Damia
Still doesn't answer the question. Does the National Land Registry
indicate that a person has dual citizenship and then specifies the
country? I doubt it. They don't care.
Would the Registry indicate that Boris is a U.S. citizen, too, and
also give his U.S. Social Security number (if he has one)? More
doubt. How would they know it (if he has one)?
How many people are name "Boris Johnson" in the UK?

I think it's unlikely that two share the name
Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, which is presumably the name in
which his US birth/ citizenship was registered.

You might be

Post by Mack A. Damia
surprised. How does the registry identify him from any other Boris
Johnson? How would the U.S. tax people know him from others? See my
point?

No. The famous BJ the IRS are interested in is easily identifiable in
numerous UK public databases including addresses, property ownership,
financial assets he declares annually (as an MP).


Janet.

[Mack A. Damia]

Post by Janet

Post by Mack A. Damia
Still doesn't answer the question. Does the National Land Registry
indicate that a person has dual citizenship and then specifies the
country? I doubt it. They don't care.
Would the Registry indicate that Boris is a U.S. citizen, too, and
also give his U.S. Social Security number (if he has one)? More
doubt. How would they know it (if he has one)?
How many people are name "Boris Johnson" in the UK?

I think it's unlikely that two share the name
Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, which is presumably the name in
which his US birth/ citizenship was registered.
You might be

Post by Mack A. Damia
surprised. How does the registry identify him from any other Boris
Johnson? How would the U.S. tax people know him from others? See my
point?

No. The famous BJ the IRS are interested in is easily identifiable in
numerous UK public databases including addresses, property ownership,
financial assets he declares annually (as an MP).

Wiki:

"His birth was registered with both the US authorities and the city's
British Consulate and he was granted both American and British
citizenship."

It's not granted; you just have it. I have dual citizenship. I have
an expired British passport as well as an active U.S. passport.

His birth was only registered locally, not nationally. He may have
gotten a Social Security number before he was five, but it's doubtful.
That sort of thing wasn't done in 1964 when he was born.

Again, he has a checkered past, and he brought the problem on himself.

I don't think government data bases are open to foreign scrutiny. The
USA is having a yuge to-do about that now. I don't think the UK would
allow that either.

[Janet]

Post by Mack A. Damia
I don't think government data bases are open to foreign scrutiny. The
USA is having a yuge to-do about that now. I don't think the UK would
allow that either.

in UK, when national databases (govt and other) are open to public
scrutiny, there's no limit on who does the scrutinising.

Janet.

[Mack A. Damia]

Post by Janet

Post by Mack A. Damia
I don't think government data bases are open to foreign scrutiny. The
USA is having a yuge to-do about that now. I don't think the UK would
allow that either.

in UK, when national databases (govt and other) are open to public
scrutiny, there's no limit on who does the scrutinising.

I don't know anything about it, but I imagine that there is not going
to be public scrutiny of sensitive and personal information. I don't
think that personal tax information would be available, although there
is a lot of new legislation being unobtrusively passed because of
terrorism.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/law-and-order/9372965/Foreign-powers-will-be-allowed-to-access-email-and-phone-records.html

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Tue, 25 Jul 2017 09:12:09 -0700, Mack A. Damia

Post by Mack A. Damia

Post by Janet

Post by Mack A. Damia
Still doesn't answer the question. Does the National Land Registry
indicate that a person has dual citizenship and then specifies the
country? I doubt it. They don't care.
Would the Registry indicate that Boris is a U.S. citizen, too, and
also give his U.S. Social Security number (if he has one)? More
doubt. How would they know it (if he has one)?
How many people are name "Boris Johnson" in the UK?

I think it's unlikely that two share the name
Alexander Boris de Pfeffel Johnson, which is presumably the name in
which his US birth/ citizenship was registered.
You might be

Post by Mack A. Damia
surprised. How does the registry identify him from any other Boris
Johnson? How would the U.S. tax people know him from others? See my
point?

No. The famous BJ the IRS are interested in is easily identifiable in
numerous UK public databases including addresses, property ownership,
financial assets he declares annually (as an MP).

"His birth was registered with both the US authorities and the city's
British Consulate and he was granted both American and British
citizenship."
It's not granted; you just have it. I have dual citizenship. I have
an expired British passport as well as an active U.S. passport.

Boris had a US passport so would have been known to the US authorities:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-27371673

Boris Johnson renewed his US passport in November 2012, the London
Mayor's aides have confirmed.

Post by Mack A. Damia
His birth was only registered locally, not nationally. He may have
gotten a Social Security number before he was five, but it's doubtful.
That sort of thing wasn't done in 1964 when he was born.
Again, he has a checkered past, and he brought the problem on himself.
I don't think government data bases are open to foreign scrutiny. The
USA is having a yuge to-do about that now. I don't think the UK would
allow that either.

[Richard Tobin]

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/blogs-magazine-monitor-27371673

The US also requires banks *everywhere in the world* to report to them
details of US citizens who have accounts. You might think that they
can't impose such a requirement on foreign banks, but any bank that
doesn't can't do any business with the US, so they all go along with
it.

And when you open a bank account in the UK, you have to state
whether you are a US citizen so that they can report it.

-- Richard

[Tak To]

Post by Jack Campin

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Robert Bannister
I thought there were a number of countries that do not recognise
renunciation of citizenship - if you or your parents were born
there, then they can claim you for military service or anything
else if they get their hands on you.

Conversely the USA is greedy.

?? Awarding citizenship (via the Fourteenth Amendment) to all
offspring of former slaves was "greedy"??

The previous poster will have been thinking of the US tax system,
which is unusual and maybe unique in requiring emigrant citizens
to file tax returns. (For most countries you don't even need to
renounce your citizenship to get the tax collectors off your back,
simply living somewhere else will do it).

One does not need to file a tax return if one does not
have any tax to pay. In general, income tax paid to
foreign jurisdictions can be used to offset tax liability
in the US.

[Cheryl]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Peter Moylan
Australian law does not allow parliamentarians to hold dual citizenship.
We're worried about divided loyalties if we should happen to be at war
with New Zealand or Canada.

The fact that they hold dual citizenship is a consequence of the laws
of the other country. So if, say, Russia were to award citizenship to
all the MPs of some Australian party...

I thought there were a number of countries that do not recognise
renunciation of citizenship - if you or your parents were born there,
then they can claim you for military service or anything else if they
get their hands on you.

Greece and Ian are examples.

Who's Ian?

Post by J. J. Lodder
Morocco doesn't accept it in practice.
Conversely the USA is greedy.

?? Awarding citizenship (via the Fourteenth Amendment) to all offspring of former
slaves was "greedy"??
First you demand a military dictatorship, now you demand perpetual serfdom.
Clearly you propagandize for the wrong country.

Post by J. J. Lodder
It will claim children born there from foreign parents.
It takes a lot of effort and many repeats of sayimg
'No, I really don't want to be a US citizen'
to be rid of them,

What's the downside to US citizenship?

Taxation. The US will try to force dual citizens living abroad to submit
US tax forms. Generally, said citizens won't owe much if any tax if
they're living in a country with an appropriate tax treaty, but proving
it can be very expensive, especially if the dual citizen has never lived
or worked in the US, and in fact hasn't been a dual citizen for most of
their life, having been born at a time and lived under circumstances
that meant that the US didn't consider them US citizens at all. This
means they have a lifetime of not filing tax returns in the US (a
country they neither live nor work in) to make up, and tax lawyers with
a specialty in this area are not cheap.

Formally renouncing a citizenship that some new dual citizens didn't
request but got anyway because of a change in US law has also gotten
very expensive, and might not be retroactive.

I think this has resulted from (a) people who weren't US citizens but
wanted to be considered such lobbying successfully for the right to have
dual citizenship recognized (which means people in similar situations
who were perfectly happy not being American were suddenly American) and
(b) changes to the American tax laws to catch cheaters who were American
citizens but had assets abroad.

It's caused a LOT Of consternation and sometimes serious trouble to some
people who haven't lived in the US but are now, without actually doing
anything to change their status, American citizens.

[Tak To]

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Peter Moylan
Australian law does not allow parliamentarians to hold dual citizenship.
We're worried about divided loyalties if we should happen to be at war
with New Zealand or Canada.

The fact that they hold dual citizenship is a consequence of the laws
of the other country. So if, say, Russia were to award citizenship to
all the MPs of some Australian party...

I thought there were a number of countries that do not recognise
renunciation of citizenship - if you or your parents were born there,
then they can claim you for military service or anything else if they
get their hands on you.

Greece and Ian are examples.
Morocco doesn't accept it in practice.
Conversely the USA is greedy.
It will claim children born there from foreign parents.
It takes a lot of effort and many repeats of sayimg
'No, I really don't want to be a US citizen'
to be rid of them,

I don't think there is any legally way for someone born in the US
to "give up" one's citizenship. There was a case in which a man
who has renounced his US citizenship wanted to move back after
years of living abroad. He was denied entry at the border but
took the case to court, and it was ruled that he was still a
citizen because nothing he has said or done has changed the
fact that he was born in the country.

The situation with naturalized citizens is a bit unclear. I think
if one lies at one's naturalization application then the process
can be declared as invalid and the citizenship revoked.

[Lewis]

Post by Tak To

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Robert Bannister

Post by Richard Tobin

Post by Peter Moylan
Australian law does not allow parliamentarians to hold dual citizenship.
We're worried about divided loyalties if we should happen to be at war
with New Zealand or Canada.

The fact that they hold dual citizenship is a consequence of the laws
of the other country. So if, say, Russia were to award citizenship to
all the MPs of some Australian party...

I thought there were a number of countries that do not recognise
renunciation of citizenship - if you or your parents were born there,
then they can claim you for military service or anything else if they
get their hands on you.

Greece and Ian are examples.
Morocco doesn't accept it in practice.
Conversely the USA is greedy.
It will claim children born there from foreign parents.
It takes a lot of effort and many repeats of sayimg
'No, I really don't want to be a US citizen'
to be rid of them,

I don't think there is any legally way for someone born in the US
to "give up" one's citizenship.

Sure there is, it's called renouncing your citizenship and there's a
relatively simple process to go through and a rather hefty fee.

Post by Tak To
There was a case in which a man who has renounced his US citizenship
wanted to move back after years of living abroad. He was denied entry
at the border but took the case to court, and it was ruled that he was
still a citizen because nothing he has said or done has changed the
fact that he was born in the country.

Interesting, I've not heard that, but renouncing is not difficult.