England have...

[Tony Cooper]

It's not often I see "waistcoat" in a headline, so I read the article
titled "Did Gareth Southgate Wear an 'It's Coming Home' Waistcoat?"

Certainly not an allusion that registered with me, but what did catch
my eye was a quote of a Marks & Spencer executive: “England have
reached the quarter finals, and frankly, we could not be more excited.
With some saying THE waistcoat has been bringing the team extra luck
we thought how better to mark the big game than launching National
Waistcoat Day. Best of luck to the team – we hope they bring it home!”

I understand why it's not "has", but "England have..." just sounds
wrong.

M&S, of course, has a vested interest in promoting the look. They
carry 57 styles of waistcoats.

[the Omrud]

Post by Tony Cooper
It's not often I see "waistcoat" in a headline, so I read the article
titled "Did Gareth Southgate Wear an 'It's Coming Home' Waistcoat?"
Certainly not an allusion that registered with me, but what did catch
my eye was a quote of a Marks & Spencer executive: “England have
reached the quarter finals, and frankly, we could not be more excited.
With some saying THE waistcoat has been bringing the team extra luck
we thought how better to mark the big game than launching National
Waistcoat Day. Best of luck to the team – we hope they bring it home!”
I understand why it's not "has", but "England have..." just sounds
wrong.

"England" in this instance is not a country but a football team. As you
know, we're comfortable with either singular or plural for teams,
depending on whether they are being referred to as a group of
individuals or as a single unit.

On the butcher's counter at the local supermarket there is a small
blackboard on which the duty butcher can inscribe his name. Yesterday,
it said:

It's coming home
Today's Butcher is
Fred
It's coming home

[Mark Brader]

Post by the Omrud
"England" in this instance is not a country but a football team.

ObMovie: "The Lady Vanishes" (1938).

The hotel clerk has finally managed to get a telephone connection to
England, and goes off to find the guest who asked for it. Charters
picks up the phone...

"What's happening to England?"
...
"Blowing a gale? No, I'm inquiring about the test match in Manchester."
...
"Cricket, sir, cricket!"
...
"You don't know? You can't be in England and not know the test score."

And he hangs up the phone in disgust, just as the clerk returns with the
guest who was making the call...

[John Doe]

Post by the Omrud

Post by Tony Cooper
I understand why it's not "has", but "England have..." just
sounds wrong.

"England" in this instance is not a country but a football team.

A team should be referred to as a single unit.

Seems like a mess.

[the Omrud]

Post by John Doe

Post by the Omrud

Post by Tony Cooper
I understand why it's not "has", but "England have..." just
sounds wrong.

"England" in this instance is not a country but a football team.

A team should be referred to as a single unit.

"should be"?

[Steve Hayes]

Post by Tony Cooper
It's not often I see "waistcoat" in a headline, so I read the article
titled "Did Gareth Southgate Wear an 'It's Coming Home' Waistcoat?"
Certainly not an allusion that registered with me, but what did catch my
eye was a quote of a Marks & Spencer executive: “England have reached
the quarter finals, and frankly, we could not be more excited. With some
saying THE waistcoat has been bringing the team extra luck we thought
how better to mark the big game than launching National Waistcoat Day.
Best of luck to the team – we hope they bring it home!”
I understand why it's not "has", but "England have..." just sounds
wrong.
M&S, of course, has a vested interest in promoting the look. They carry
57 styles of waistcoats.

England have (has) been counting their chickens before they hatch. Or at
least their supporters have (has).

[Madrigal Gurneyhalt]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tony Cooper
It's not often I see "waistcoat" in a headline, so I read the article
titled "Did Gareth Southgate Wear an 'It's Coming Home' Waistcoat?"
Certainly not an allusion that registered with me, but what did catch my
eye was a quote of a Marks & Spencer executive: “England have reached
the quarter finals, and frankly, we could not be more excited. With some
saying THE waistcoat has been bringing the team extra luck we thought
how better to mark the big game than launching National Waistcoat Day.
Best of luck to the team – we hope they bring it home!”
I understand why it's not "has", but "England have..." just sounds
wrong.
M&S, of course, has a vested interest in promoting the look. They carry
57 styles of waistcoats.

England have (has) been counting their chickens before they hatch. Or at
least their supporters have (has).

For as long as there's been a World Cup. One year the number of chickens
was equal to the number of eggs. It is the nature of the exquisite torture
that all football fans around the world subject themselves to.

However, even should England lose this afternoon I'm sure that most
of us will be more than sufficiently content with having got further than
Germany! In that sense it's already come home!

[bill van]

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tony Cooper
It's not often I see "waistcoat" in a headline, so I read the article
titled "Did Gareth Southgate Wear an 'It's Coming Home' Waistcoat?"
Certainly not an allusion that registered with me, but what did catch my
eye was a quote of a Marks & Spencer executive: “England have reached
the quarter finals, and frankly, we could not be more excited. With some
saying THE waistcoat has been bringing the team extra luck we thought
how better to mark the big game than launching National Waistcoat Day.
Best of luck to the team – we hope they bring it home!”
I understand why it's not "has", but "England have..." just sounds
wrong.
M&S, of course, has a vested interest in promoting the look. They carry
57 styles of waistcoats.

England have (has) been counting their chickens before they hatch. Or
at> least their supporters have (has).>>>

For as long as there's been a World Cup. One year the number of chickens
was equal to the number of eggs. It is the nature of the exquisite torture
that all football fans around the world subject themselves to.
However, even should England lose this afternoon I'm sure that most
of us will be more than sufficiently content with having got further
thanGermany! In that sense it's already come home!

You'll know by now that England is headed for the semi-finals. Still
possible is an England-Belgium final, which
would be lovely: two exciting offensive teams whose scoring stars are
just reaching their primes.

bill

[Tony Cooper]

Post by bill van
You'll know by now that England is headed for the semi-finals. Still
possible is an England-Belgium final, which
would be lovely: two exciting offensive teams whose scoring stars are
just reaching their primes.

Sometimes agreement doesn't work. I would use "prime" there even
though the word "stars" is plural.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by bill van
You'll know by now that England is headed for the semi-finals. Still
possible is an England-Belgium final, which
would be lovely: two exciting offensive teams whose scoring stars are
just reaching their primes.

Sometimes agreement doesn't work. I would use "prime" there even
though the word "stars" is plural.

It could be that each of them has a different sort of prime, and fortunately
they're all reaching them simultaneously. Like a pitcher and a catcher
might be reaching their primes in the same season -- the catcher by dint
of long experience (it's no coincidence that a lot of the great managers
were catchers in their playing days), the pitcher by dint of youth and
not yet having suffered any of the usual arm injuries or surgeries.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by bill van

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Steve Hayes
England have (has) been counting their chickens before they hatch. Or
at> least their supporters have (has).>>>

For as long as there's been a World Cup. One year the number of chickens
was equal to the number of eggs. It is the nature of the exquisite torture
that all football fans around the world subject themselves to.
However, even should England lose this afternoon I'm sure that most
of us will be more than sufficiently content with having got further
thanGermany! In that sense it's already come home!

You'll know by now that England is headed for the semi-finals. Still
possible is an England-Belgium final, which
would be lovely: two exciting offensive teams whose scoring stars are
just reaching their primes.

Does actual skill have anything to do with it? It seems like just about
every (important) match has been decided by "penalty kicks." (What are
they penalizing them for?)

That nice Mr Bennett on NPR confirmed that it's been more than 50 years
since England did it. One of the more memorable events in my early stamp
collecting years was the "England Wins" overprint on the 1966 World Cup
stamp. Overprints were not normally used by actual countries in peacetime!

[the Omrud]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by bill van
You'll know by now that England is headed for the semi-finals. Still
possible is an England-Belgium final, which
would be lovely: two exciting offensive teams whose scoring stars are
just reaching their primes.

Does actual skill have anything to do with it? It seems like just about
every (important) match has been decided by "penalty kicks." (What are
they penalizing them for?)

Not that I'm the person to explain football, but the style of free kick
used to decide a match on "penalties" is the one previously only awarded
for a foul in the penalty area. They've pressed it into service for
another purpose but failed to change its name.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
That nice Mr Bennett on NPR confirmed that it's been more than 50 years
since England did it. One of the more memorable events in my early stamp
collecting years was the "England Wins" overprint on the 1966 World Cup
stamp. Overprints were not normally used by actual countries in peacetime!

Gosh, I'd forgotten that, but I now remember seeing the overprinted stamps.

We were in our caravan in a field in Suffolk in 1966 so we had only a
transistor radio to hear the match.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by the Omrud

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by bill van
You'll know by now that England is headed for the semi-finals. Still
possible is an England-Belgium final, which
would be lovely: two exciting offensive teams whose scoring stars are
just reaching their primes.

Does actual skill have anything to do with it? It seems like just about
every (important) match has been decided by "penalty kicks." (What are
they penalizing them for?)

Not that I'm the person to explain football, but the style of free kick
used to decide a match on "penalties" is the one previously only
awarded for a foul in the penalty area. They've pressed it into
service for another purpose but failed to change its name.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
That nice Mr Bennett on NPR confirmed that it's been more than 50 years
since England did it. One of the more memorable events in my early stamp
collecting years was the "England Wins" overprint on the 1966 World Cup
stamp. Overprints were not normally used by actual countries in peacetime!

Gosh, I'd forgotten that, but I now remember seeing the overprinted stamps.

I remember them, and I have a recollection that there was a bit of a
fuss about them in Scotland.

Post by the Omrud
We were in our caravan in a field in Suffolk in 1966 so we had only a
transistor radio to hear the match.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

Post by the Omrud

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by bill van
You'll know by now that England is headed for the semi-finals. Still
possible is an England-Belgium final, which
would be lovely: two exciting offensive teams whose scoring stars are
just reaching their primes.

Does actual skill have anything to do with it? It seems like just about
every (important) match has been decided by "penalty kicks." (What are
they penalizing them for?)

Not that I'm the person to explain football, but the style of free kick
used to decide a match on "penalties" is the one previously only awarded
for a foul in the penalty area. They've pressed it into service for
another purpose but failed to change its name.

This article was published yesterday about the origin of the penalty
kick:
https://news.sky.com/story/the-goalkeeper-from-northern-ireland-who-invented-footballs-penalty-kick-11428970

The goalkeeper from Northern Ireland who invented football's penalty
kick
Saturday 07 July 2018

Football might be coming home but the penalty kick won't be because
Northern Ireland didn't qualify for the World Cup finals.

It was an amateur goalkeeper from County Armagh who invented the
forfeit for foul play that became the source of highest drama on the
pitch.

You can point to the spot where the very first penalty was taken -
it's marked with a bust of William McCrum on the village green at
Milford.
<image of the memorial erected about 10 years ago in McCrum Park>

His great-grandson, Robert McCrum, told Sky News: "Only a goalkeeper
could invent the penalty kick because it makes the goalkeeper centre
stage.

"The penalty kick's been in my family for a long time. All I can say
is I wish that every time there was a penalty given, we got a
royalty."
....

Wikipedia describes other influences on this development, but it was
William McCrum's suggestion to the Irish governing body, the Irish
Football Association (IFA), which in turn proposed the idea to the
International Football Association Board (IFAB) which formally adopted
the idea and amended the Laws of the Game to incoporate it.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penalty_kick_(association_football)#History>

IFAB consisted of representatives of the four national governing bodies
FA (England), IFA (Ireland), SFA (Scotland) and FAW (Wales).
Each FA had one vote.

(Today IFAB has additional representatives appointed by FIFA who have 4
votes. Any change to the Laws of the Game requires a supermajority, at
least 6 out of 8 votes.)

(The IFA today covers only Northern Ireland. In a fit of nationalistic
separatism, soccer in the Irish Republic split off and has its own
governing body, the FAI.)

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by the Omrud

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by bill van
You'll know by now that England is headed for the semi-finals. Still
possible is an England-Belgium final, which
would be lovely: two exciting offensive teams whose scoring stars are
just reaching their primes.

Does actual skill have anything to do with it? It seems like just about
every (important) match has been decided by "penalty kicks." (What are
they penalizing them for?)

Not that I'm the person to explain football, but the style of free kick
used to decide a match on "penalties" is the one previously only awarded
for a foul in the penalty area. They've pressed it into service for
another purpose but failed to change its name.

This article was published yesterday about the origin of the penalty
https://news.sky.com/story/the-goalkeeper-from-northern-ireland-who-invented-footballs-penalty-kick-11428970
The goalkeeper from Northern Ireland who invented football's penalty
kick
Saturday 07 July 2018
Football might be coming home but the penalty kick won't be because
Northern Ireland didn't qualify for the World Cup finals.
It was an amateur goalkeeper from County Armagh who invented the
forfeit for foul play that became the source of highest drama on the
pitch.
You can point to the spot where the very first penalty was taken -
it's marked with a bust of William McCrum on the village green at
Milford.
<image of the memorial erected about 10 years ago in McCrum Park>
His great-grandson, Robert McCrum, told Sky News: "Only a goalkeeper
could invent the penalty kick because it makes the goalkeeper centre
stage.
"The penalty kick's been in my family for a long time. All I can say
is I wish that every time there was a penalty given, we got a
royalty."
....
Wikipedia describes other influences on this development, but it was
William McCrum's suggestion to the Irish governing body, the Irish
Football Association (IFA), which in turn proposed the idea to the
International Football Association Board (IFAB) which formally adopted
the idea and amended the Laws of the Game to incoporate it.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penalty_kick_(association_football)#History>

That's all very nice, and wasn't a bad idea, but it doesn't answer the
question!

(Which was, why should most matches be decided by penalty kicks instead
of by playing the game, and why should the final showdown be called
"penalties"?)

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
IFAB consisted of representatives of the four national governing bodies
FA (England), IFA (Ireland), SFA (Scotland) and FAW (Wales).
Each FA had one vote.
(Today IFAB has additional representatives appointed by FIFA who have 4
votes. Any change to the Laws of the Game requires a supermajority, at
least 6 out of 8 votes.)
(The IFA today covers only Northern Ireland. In a fit of nationalistic
separatism, soccer in the Irish Republic split off and has its own
governing body, the FAI.)

Doesn't speak well of the players ...

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 05:50:40 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by the Omrud

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by bill van
You'll know by now that England is headed for the semi-finals. Still
possible is an England-Belgium final, which
would be lovely: two exciting offensive teams whose scoring stars are
just reaching their primes.

Does actual skill have anything to do with it? It seems like just about
every (important) match has been decided by "penalty kicks." (What are
they penalizing them for?)

Not that I'm the person to explain football, but the style of free kick
used to decide a match on "penalties" is the one previously only awarded
for a foul in the penalty area. They've pressed it into service for
another purpose but failed to change its name.

This article was published yesterday about the origin of the penalty
https://news.sky.com/story/the-goalkeeper-from-northern-ireland-who-invented-footballs-penalty-kick-11428970

<snip>

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penalty_kick_(association_football)#History>

That's all very nice, and wasn't a bad idea, but it doesn't answer the
question!
(Which was, why should most matches be decided by penalty kicks instead
of by playing the game, and why should the final showdown be called
"penalties"?)

"penalty kicks" are used if the match has gone to full time (90 minutes
play) and the score is a draw, and there has then been a period of
"extra time" (30 minutes play) and still there is a draw.
If the game were to be continued normally it could last a long time.

"penalty kicks"/"penalties" is a colloquialism for this final shoot-out.
In the Laws of the Game the kicks are referred to as "Kicks from the
penalty mark".

The penalty mark is the white dot on the ground where the ball will be
positioned to be kicked when a penalty has been awarded.

The "Kicks from the penalty mark" are conducted in the same way as kicks
awarded as a penalty.

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
IFAB consisted of representatives of the four national governing bodies
FA (England), IFA (Ireland), SFA (Scotland) and FAW (Wales).
Each FA had one vote.
(Today IFAB has additional representatives appointed by FIFA who have 4
votes. Any change to the Laws of the Game requires a supermajority, at
least 6 out of 8 votes.)
(The IFA today covers only Northern Ireland. In a fit of nationalistic
separatism, soccer in the Irish Republic split off and has its own
governing body, the FAI.)

Doesn't speak well of the players ...

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

On Sun, 08 Jul 2018 13:53:25 GMT, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 05:50:40 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 10:52:07 +0100, the Omrud

[]

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

(The IFA today covers only Northern Ireland. In a fit of
nationalistic separatism, soccer in the Irish Republic split off and
has its own governing body, the FAI.)

Doesn't speak well of the players ...

Strangely there's no such trouble with an all-Ireland rugby team (apart
from refusing to sing the anthem).

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 16:08:15 -0000 (UTC), "Kerr-Mudd,John"

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Sun, 08 Jul 2018 13:53:25 GMT, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 05:50:40 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 10:52:07 +0100, the Omrud

[]

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

(The IFA today covers only Northern Ireland. In a fit of
nationalistic separatism, soccer in the Irish Republic split off and
has its own governing body, the FAI.)

Doesn't speak well of the players ...

Strangely there's no such trouble with an all-Ireland rugby team (apart
from refusing to sing the anthem).

There is the small question of "which anthem?".
Cricket is also all-Ireland.

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

On Sun, 08 Jul 2018 16:51:32 GMT, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 16:08:15 -0000 (UTC), "Kerr-Mudd,John"

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Sun, 08 Jul 2018 13:53:25 GMT, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 05:50:40 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 10:52:07 +0100, the Omrud

[]

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

(The IFA today covers only Northern Ireland. In a fit of
nationalistic separatism, soccer in the Irish Republic split off and
has its own governing body, the FAI.)

Doesn't speak well of the players ...

Strangely there's no such trouble with an all-Ireland rugby team (apart
from refusing to sing the anthem).

There is the small question of "which anthem?".
Cricket is also all-Ireland.

The special non-partisan, "made-up just for you" rugby anthem.

[b***@aol.com]

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 05:50:40 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by the Omrud

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by bill van
You'll know by now that England is headed for the semi-finals. Still
possible is an England-Belgium final, which
would be lovely: two exciting offensive teams whose scoring stars are
just reaching their primes.

Does actual skill have anything to do with it? It seems like just about
every (important) match has been decided by "penalty kicks." (What are
they penalizing them for?)

Not that I'm the person to explain football, but the style of free kick
used to decide a match on "penalties" is the one previously only awarded
for a foul in the penalty area. They've pressed it into service for
another purpose but failed to change its name.

This article was published yesterday about the origin of the penalty
https://news.sky.com/story/the-goalkeeper-from-northern-ireland-who-invented-footballs-penalty-kick-11428970

<snip>

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penalty_kick_(association_football)#History>

That's all very nice, and wasn't a bad idea, but it doesn't answer the
question!
(Which was, why should most matches be decided by penalty kicks instead
of by playing the game, and why should the final showdown be called
"penalties"?)

"penalty kicks" are used if the match has gone to full time (90 minutes
play) and the score is a draw, and there has then been a period of
"extra time" (30 minutes play) and still there is a draw.
If the game were to be continued normally it could last a long time.
"penalty kicks"/"penalties" is a colloquialism for this final shoot-out.
In the Laws of the Game the kicks are referred to as "Kicks from the
penalty mark".

Thanks, I'd never heard that term. (A like distinction exists in French:
"pénalties vs "tirs au but".)

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
The penalty mark is the white dot on the ground where the ball will be
positioned to be kicked when a penalty has been awarded.
The "Kicks from the penalty mark" are conducted in the same way as kicks
awarded as a penalty.

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
IFAB consisted of representatives of the four national governing bodies
FA (England), IFA (Ireland), SFA (Scotland) and FAW (Wales).
Each FA had one vote.
(Today IFAB has additional representatives appointed by FIFA who have 4
votes. Any change to the Laws of the Game requires a supermajority, at
least 6 out of 8 votes.)
(The IFA today covers only Northern Ireland. In a fit of nationalistic
separatism, soccer in the Irish Republic split off and has its own
governing body, the FAI.)

Doesn't speak well of the players ...

--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

Post by b***@aol.com

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 05:50:40 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by the Omrud

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by bill van
You'll know by now that England is headed for the semi-finals. Still
possible is an England-Belgium final, which
would be lovely: two exciting offensive teams whose scoring stars are
just reaching their primes.

Does actual skill have anything to do with it? It seems like just about
every (important) match has been decided by "penalty kicks." (What are
they penalizing them for?)

Not that I'm the person to explain football, but the style of free kick
used to decide a match on "penalties" is the one previously only awarded
for a foul in the penalty area. They've pressed it into service for
another purpose but failed to change its name.

This article was published yesterday about the origin of the penalty
https://news.sky.com/story/the-goalkeeper-from-northern-ireland-who-invented-footballs-penalty-kick-11428970

<snip>

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penalty_kick_(association_football)#History>

That's all very nice, and wasn't a bad idea, but it doesn't answer the
question!
(Which was, why should most matches be decided by penalty kicks instead
of by playing the game, and why should the final showdown be called
"penalties"?)

"penalty kicks" are used if the match has gone to full time (90 minutes
play) and the score is a draw, and there has then been a period of
"extra time" (30 minutes play) and still there is a draw.
If the game were to be continued normally it could last a long time.
"penalty kicks"/"penalties" is a colloquialism for this final shoot-out.
In the Laws of the Game the kicks are referred to as "Kicks from the
penalty mark".

"pénalties vs "tirs au but".)

In BrE it is normal to see reports of matches saying that a team
"won/beaten on penalties". That refers to a shootout not penalty kicks
awarded during normal play.

For instance:
https://www.theguardian.com/football/live/2018/jul/01/spain-v-russia-world-cup-2018-live

Spain beaten on penalties by Russia

[b***@aol.com]

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by b***@aol.com

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 05:50:40 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by the Omrud

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by bill van
You'll know by now that England is headed for the semi-finals. Still
possible is an England-Belgium final, which
would be lovely: two exciting offensive teams whose scoring stars are
just reaching their primes.

Does actual skill have anything to do with it? It seems like just about
every (important) match has been decided by "penalty kicks." (What are
they penalizing them for?)

Not that I'm the person to explain football, but the style of free kick
used to decide a match on "penalties" is the one previously only awarded
for a foul in the penalty area. They've pressed it into service for
another purpose but failed to change its name.

This article was published yesterday about the origin of the penalty
https://news.sky.com/story/the-goalkeeper-from-northern-ireland-who-invented-footballs-penalty-kick-11428970

<snip>

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penalty_kick_(association_football)#History>

That's all very nice, and wasn't a bad idea, but it doesn't answer the
question!
(Which was, why should most matches be decided by penalty kicks instead
of by playing the game, and why should the final showdown be called
"penalties"?)

"penalty kicks" are used if the match has gone to full time (90 minutes
play) and the score is a draw, and there has then been a period of
"extra time" (30 minutes play) and still there is a draw.
If the game were to be continued normally it could last a long time.
"penalty kicks"/"penalties" is a colloquialism for this final shoot-out.
In the Laws of the Game the kicks are referred to as "Kicks from the
penalty mark".

"pénalties vs "tirs au but".)

In BrE it is normal to see reports of matches saying that a team
"won/beaten on penalties". That refers to a shootout not penalty kicks
awarded during normal play.

Ditto in French, but some do make the distinction.

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
https://www.theguardian.com/football/live/2018/jul/01/spain-v-russia-world-cup-2018-live
Spain beaten on penalties by Russia
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 05:50:40 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by the Omrud

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by bill van
You'll know by now that England is headed for the semi-finals. Still
possible is an England-Belgium final, which
would be lovely: two exciting offensive teams whose scoring stars are
just reaching their primes.

Does actual skill have anything to do with it? It seems like just about
every (important) match has been decided by "penalty kicks." (What are
they penalizing them for?)

Not that I'm the person to explain football, but the style of free kick
used to decide a match on "penalties" is the one previously only awarded
for a foul in the penalty area. They've pressed it into service for
another purpose but failed to change its name.

What would it cost them to change the name?

The NYS Legislature decided that NYC's MBTA -- Metropolitan Bridge and
Tunnel Authority, part of the MTA, the Metropolitan Transit Authority,
shall change the name of the Verrazano Bridge to Verrazzano Bridge. The
documentary grounds for this are doubtful -- apparently he spelled it both
ways -- and it means changing a large number of road signs, reprinting
many different maps, probably amending legislation, ...

(But the governor hasn't signed it yet.)

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
This article was published yesterday about the origin of the penalty
https://news.sky.com/story/the-goalkeeper-from-northern-ireland-who-invented-footballs-penalty-kick-11428970

<snip>

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penalty_kick_(association_football)#History>

That's all very nice, and wasn't a bad idea, but it doesn't answer the
question!
(Which was, why should most matches be decided by penalty kicks instead
of by playing the game, and why should the final showdown be called
"penalties"?)

"penalty kicks" are used if the match has gone to full time (90 minutes
play) and the score is a draw, and there has then been a period of
"extra time" (30 minutes play) and still there is a draw.
If the game were to be continued normally it could last a long time.
"penalty kicks"/"penalties" is a colloquialism for this final shoot-out.
In the Laws of the Game the kicks are referred to as "Kicks from the
penalty mark".
The penalty mark is the white dot on the ground where the ball will be
positioned to be kicked when a penalty has been awarded.
The "Kicks from the penalty mark" are conducted in the same way as kicks
awarded as a penalty.

So they should be tarred with the same brush?

Any match won by "penalty kicks" is suspect because it involved someone
being penalized for something.

Wasting 90 minutes, maybe.

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
IFAB consisted of representatives of the four national governing bodies
FA (England), IFA (Ireland), SFA (Scotland) and FAW (Wales).
Each FA had one vote.
(Today IFAB has additional representatives appointed by FIFA who have 4
votes. Any change to the Laws of the Game requires a supermajority, at
least 6 out of 8 votes.)
(The IFA today covers only Northern Ireland. In a fit of nationalistic
separatism, soccer in the Irish Republic split off and has its own
governing body, the FAI.)

Doesn't speak well of the players ...

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

On Sun, 08 Jul 2018 19:16:26 GMT, "Peter Duncanson [BrE]"

On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 10:16:04 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 05:50:40 -0700 (PDT), "Peter T. Daniels"

Post by Peter T. Daniels

On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 10:52:07 +0100, the Omrud

Post by the Omrud

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by bill van
You'll know by now that England is headed for the
semi-finals.

Still

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by the Omrud

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by bill van
possible is an England-Belgium final, which
would be lovely: two exciting offensive teams whose scoring

stars are

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by the Omrud

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by bill van
just reaching their primes.

Does actual skill have anything to do with it? It seems like

just about

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by the Omrud

Post by Peter T. Daniels
every (important) match has been decided by "penalty kicks."

(What are

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by the Omrud

Post by Peter T. Daniels
they penalizing them for?)

Not that I'm the person to explain football, but the style of
free

kick

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by the Omrud
used to decide a match on "penalties" is the one previously only

awarded

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by the Omrud
for a foul in the penalty area. They've pressed it into service

for

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by the Omrud
another purpose but failed to change its name.

What would it cost them to change the name?

Annoyance among players and fans.
The shootout for "Determining the Outcome of a Match" is officially
known as "Kicks from the penalty mark".
(Quoting from IFAB Laws of the Game, Law 10.)
The phrase "Penalty Kick" is used in relation to a a kick awarded
because of an offence in the penalty area. (Law 14)
Players and fans know the difference between them.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
The NYS Legislature decided that NYC's MBTA -- Metropolitan Bridge and
Tunnel Authority, part of the MTA, the Metropolitan Transit Authority,
shall change the name of the Verrazano Bridge to Verrazzano Bridge.
The documentary grounds for this are doubtful -- apparently he spelled
it

both

Post by Peter T. Daniels
ways -- and it means changing a large number of road signs, reprinting
many different maps, probably amending legislation, ...
(But the governor hasn't signed it yet.)

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

This article was published yesterday about the origin of the

penalty
https://news.sky.com/story/the-goalkeeper-from-northern-ireland-who-inv
ented-footballs-penalty-kick-11428970

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
<snip>

<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penalty_kick_(association_football)#Hist
ory>

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by Peter T. Daniels
That's all very nice, and wasn't a bad idea, but it doesn't answer

the

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by Peter T. Daniels
question!
(Which was, why should most matches be decided by penalty kicks

instead

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by Peter T. Daniels
of by playing the game, and why should the final showdown be called
"penalties"?)

"penalty kicks" are used if the match has gone to full time (90

minutes

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
play) and the score is a draw, and there has then been a period of
"extra time" (30 minutes play) and still there is a draw.
If the game were to be continued normally it could last a long time.

[]

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Any match won by "penalty kicks" is suspect because it involved
someone being penalized for something.
Wasting 90 minutes, maybe.

+30 min extra time.

PTD has failed to read the answer provided. Or is being a deliberately
obtuse. Cockup or conspiracy? You decide.

[Anders D. Nygaard]

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
[...]
"penalty kicks" are used if the match has gone to full time (90 minutes
play) and the score is a draw, and there has then been a period of
"extra time" (30 minutes play) and still there is a draw.
If the game were to be continued normally it could last a long time.
"penalty kicks"/"penalties" is a colloquialism for this final shoot-out.
In the Laws of the Game the kicks are referred to as "Kicks from the
penalty mark".
The penalty mark is the white dot on the ground where the ball will be
positioned to be kicked when a penalty has been awarded.
The "Kicks from the penalty mark" are conducted in the same way as kicks
awarded as a penalty.

ICBW (quite likely, in fact), but is that strictly true?
The kick itself, yes, but I seem to recall that during the shoot-out you
get only the one kick, whereas kicks awarded as a penalty may result
in the ball immediately returning into play, sometimes effectively
allowing the kicker a second chance after a rebound.

/Anders, Denmark (which lost to Croatia in shoot-out)

[Anders D. Nygaard]

Post by Anders D. Nygaard

[...] "penalty kicks" are used if the match has gone to full time (90
minutes
play) and the score is a draw, and there has then been a period of
"extra time" (30 minutes play) and still there is a draw.
If the game were to be continued normally it could last a long time.
"penalty kicks"/"penalties" is a colloquialism for this final shoot-out.
In the Laws of the Game the kicks are referred to as "Kicks from the
penalty mark".
The penalty mark is the white dot on the ground where the ball will be
positioned to be kicked when a penalty has been awarded.
The "Kicks from the penalty mark" are conducted in the same way as kicks
awarded as a penalty.

ICBW (quite likely, in fact), but is that strictly true?
The kick itself, yes, but I seem to recall that during the shoot-out you
get only the one kick, whereas kicks awarded as a penalty may result
in the ball immediately returning into play, sometimes effectively
allowing the kicker a second chance after a rebound.
/Anders, Denmark (which lost to Croatia in shoot-out)

Shuddaredahed. Confirmed by bebercito.

/Anders, Denmark.

[Madrigal Gurneyhalt]

Post by Anders D. Nygaard

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
[...]
"penalty kicks" are used if the match has gone to full time (90 minutes
play) and the score is a draw, and there has then been a period of
"extra time" (30 minutes play) and still there is a draw.
If the game were to be continued normally it could last a long time.
"penalty kicks"/"penalties" is a colloquialism for this final shoot-out.
In the Laws of the Game the kicks are referred to as "Kicks from the
penalty mark".
The penalty mark is the white dot on the ground where the ball will be
positioned to be kicked when a penalty has been awarded.
The "Kicks from the penalty mark" are conducted in the same way as kicks
awarded as a penalty.

ICBW (quite likely, in fact), but is that strictly true?
The kick itself, yes, but I seem to recall that during the shoot-out you
get only the one kick, whereas kicks awarded as a penalty may result
in the ball immediately returning into play, sometimes effectively
allowing the kicker a second chance after a rebound.

You are correct. The taker can only play the ball once. If the ball
rebounds from the goalkeeper, the post or crossbar it will be
declared dead the moment the taker or anyone other than the
defending goalkeeper makes contact. That doesn't necessarily mean
that all is lost when it rebounds though ...

[b***@aol.com]

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by the Omrud

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by bill van
You'll know by now that England is headed for the semi-finals. Still
possible is an England-Belgium final, which
would be lovely: two exciting offensive teams whose scoring stars are
just reaching their primes.

Does actual skill have anything to do with it? It seems like just about
every (important) match has been decided by "penalty kicks." (What are
they penalizing them for?)

Not that I'm the person to explain football, but the style of free kick
used to decide a match on "penalties" is the one previously only awarded
for a foul in the penalty area. They've pressed it into service for
another purpose but failed to change its name.

But the phase of the game where this happens has a dedicated name of
"shoot-out", IIRC, and penalty kicks then often seem to be referred to
as just "kicks" or "shots".

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
This article was published yesterday about the origin of the penalty
https://news.sky.com/story/the-goalkeeper-from-northern-ireland-who-invented-footballs-penalty-kick-11428970
The goalkeeper from Northern Ireland who invented football's penalty
kick
Saturday 07 July 2018
Football might be coming home but the penalty kick won't be because
Northern Ireland didn't qualify for the World Cup finals.
It was an amateur goalkeeper from County Armagh who invented the
forfeit for foul play that became the source of highest drama on the
pitch.
You can point to the spot where the very first penalty was taken -
it's marked with a bust of William McCrum on the village green at
Milford.
<image of the memorial erected about 10 years ago in McCrum Park>
His great-grandson, Robert McCrum, told Sky News: "Only a goalkeeper
could invent the penalty kick because it makes the goalkeeper centre
stage.
"The penalty kick's been in my family for a long time. All I can say
is I wish that every time there was a penalty given, we got a
royalty."
....
Wikipedia describes other influences on this development, but it was
William McCrum's suggestion to the Irish governing body, the Irish
Football Association (IFA), which in turn proposed the idea to the
International Football Association Board (IFAB) which formally adopted
the idea and amended the Laws of the Game to incoporate it.
<https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Penalty_kick_(association_football)#History>
IFAB consisted of representatives of the four national governing bodies
FA (England), IFA (Ireland), SFA (Scotland) and FAW (Wales).
Each FA had one vote.
(Today IFAB has additional representatives appointed by FIFA who have 4
votes. Any change to the Laws of the Game requires a supermajority, at
least 6 out of 8 votes.)
(The IFA today covers only Northern Ireland. In a fit of nationalistic
separatism, soccer in the Irish Republic split off and has its own
governing body, the FAI.)
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)

[Tony Cooper]

Post by b***@aol.com

Post by the Omrud

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by bill van
You'll know by now that England is headed for the semi-finals. Still
possible is an England-Belgium final, which
would be lovely: two exciting offensive teams whose scoring stars are
just reaching their primes.

Does actual skill have anything to do with it? It seems like just about
every (important) match has been decided by "penalty kicks." (What are
they penalizing them for?)

Not that I'm the person to explain football, but the style of free kick
used to decide a match on "penalties" is the one previously only awarded
for a foul in the penalty area. They've pressed it into service for
another purpose but failed to change its name.

But the phase of the game where this happens has a dedicated name of
"shoot-out", IIRC, and penalty kicks then often seem to be referred to
as just "kicks" or "shots".

I don't follow the game, but it's my understanding that in a
"shoot-out", players kick the ball in the same way that they would if
awarded a penalty kick. The shoot-out kicks are not a result of a
penalty, though.

It seems to me that skill is very much involved in a shoot-out kick.
Like the field goal in American football, the kicker has to be able to
accurate in aim and distance. He is not bothered by opposing players
trying to crush him, though.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sun, 08 Jul 2018 09:42:12 -0400, Tony Cooper

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by b***@aol.com

Post by the Omrud

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by bill van
You'll know by now that England is headed for the semi-finals. Still
possible is an England-Belgium final, which
would be lovely: two exciting offensive teams whose scoring stars are
just reaching their primes.

Does actual skill have anything to do with it? It seems like just about
every (important) match has been decided by "penalty kicks." (What are
they penalizing them for?)

Not that I'm the person to explain football, but the style of free kick
used to decide a match on "penalties" is the one previously only awarded
for a foul in the penalty area. They've pressed it into service for
another purpose but failed to change its name.

But the phase of the game where this happens has a dedicated name of
"shoot-out", IIRC, and penalty kicks then often seem to be referred to
as just "kicks" or "shots".

I don't follow the game, but it's my understanding that in a
"shoot-out", players kick the ball in the same way that they would if
awarded a penalty kick. The shoot-out kicks are not a result of a
penalty, though.
It seems to me that skill is very much involved in a shoot-out kick.
Like the field goal in American football, the kicker has to be able to
accurate in aim and distance. He is not bothered by opposing players
trying to crush him, though.

In soccer, however, there is a goalkeeper attempting to keep the ball
out of the goal. The goalkeeper tends to move about before the ball has
been kicked so as to mislead the kicker about where he/she expects the
ball to go. Similarly the kicker moves in such a way as to mislead the
keeper about where he/she intends the ball to go.

In a penalty kick, whether awarded as a penalty or in a final shootout,
the ball is placed on a white dot, the "penalty spot", offically the
Penalty Mark, which is 11m (12yds) from the midpoint between the
goalposts.

[b***@aol.com]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by b***@aol.com

Post by the Omrud

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by bill van
You'll know by now that England is headed for the semi-finals. Still
possible is an England-Belgium final, which
would be lovely: two exciting offensive teams whose scoring stars are
just reaching their primes.

Does actual skill have anything to do with it? It seems like just about
every (important) match has been decided by "penalty kicks." (What are
they penalizing them for?)

Not that I'm the person to explain football, but the style of free kick
used to decide a match on "penalties" is the one previously only awarded
for a foul in the penalty area. They've pressed it into service for
another purpose but failed to change its name.

But the phase of the game where this happens has a dedicated name of
"shoot-out", IIRC, and penalty kicks then often seem to be referred to
as just "kicks" or "shots".

I don't follow the game, but it's my understanding that in a
"shoot-out", players kick the ball in the same way that they would if
awarded a penalty kick.

Not quite: during the game, if the goal keeper manages to save the goal
without blocking the ball, the action continues and a player from the other
team can score, whereas in the shoot-out, the action stops and there's no
goal.

Post by Tony Cooper
The shoot-out kicks are not a result of a
penalty, though.
It seems to me that skill is very much involved in a shoot-out kick.
Like the field goal in American football, the kicker has to be able to
accurate in aim and distance. He is not bothered by opposing players
trying to crush him, though.
--
Tony Cooper - Orlando, Florida

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by b***@aol.com

Post by the Omrud

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by bill van
You'll know by now that England is headed for the semi-finals. Still
possible is an England-Belgium final, which
would be lovely: two exciting offensive teams whose scoring stars are
just reaching their primes.

Does actual skill have anything to do with it? It seems like just about
every (important) match has been decided by "penalty kicks." (What are
they penalizing them for?)

Not that I'm the person to explain football, but the style of free kick
used to decide a match on "penalties" is the one previously only awarded
for a foul in the penalty area. They've pressed it into service for
another purpose but failed to change its name.

But the phase of the game where this happens has a dedicated name of
"shoot-out", IIRC, and penalty kicks then often seem to be referred to
as just "kicks" or "shots".

I don't follow the game, but it's my understanding that in a
"shoot-out", players kick the ball in the same way that they would if
awarded a penalty kick. The shoot-out kicks are not a result of a
penalty, though.
It seems to me that skill is very much involved in a shoot-out kick.
Like the field goal in American football, the kicker has to be able to
accurate in aim and distance. He is not bothered by opposing players
trying to crush him, though.

It is above all a game of deception.
To have a chance, the goalkeeper must make his move before the shot.
So the perfect shot has the ball going into the upper left corner,
with the goalkeeper making a magnificent dive to the right,

Jan

[Tony Cooper]

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by b***@aol.com

Post by the Omrud

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by bill van
You'll know by now that England is headed for the semi-finals. Still
possible is an England-Belgium final, which
would be lovely: two exciting offensive teams whose scoring stars are
just reaching their primes.

Does actual skill have anything to do with it? It seems like just about
every (important) match has been decided by "penalty kicks." (What are
they penalizing them for?)

Not that I'm the person to explain football, but the style of free kick
used to decide a match on "penalties" is the one previously only awarded
for a foul in the penalty area. They've pressed it into service for
another purpose but failed to change its name.

But the phase of the game where this happens has a dedicated name of
"shoot-out", IIRC, and penalty kicks then often seem to be referred to
as just "kicks" or "shots".

I don't follow the game, but it's my understanding that in a
"shoot-out", players kick the ball in the same way that they would if
awarded a penalty kick. The shoot-out kicks are not a result of a
penalty, though.
It seems to me that skill is very much involved in a shoot-out kick.
Like the field goal in American football, the kicker has to be able to
accurate in aim and distance. He is not bothered by opposing players
trying to crush him, though.

It is above all a game of deception.
To have a chance, the goalkeeper must make his move before the shot.
So the perfect shot has the ball going into the upper left corner,
with the goalkeeper making a magnificent dive to the right,

Which is the same in American football in almost every play. When a
pass is completed, it is because the receiver was successful in
deceiving the defender by indicating he was, say, going to the right
and then going to the left. We'd say "He juked right and but then
went left".

[Jerry Friedman]

...

Post by Tony Cooper

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Tony Cooper
It seems to me that skill is very much involved in a shoot-out kick.
Like the field goal in American football, the kicker has to be able to
accurate in aim and distance. He is not bothered by opposing players
trying to crush him, though.

It is above all a game of deception.
To have a chance, the goalkeeper must make his move before the shot.
So the perfect shot has the ball going into the upper left corner,
with the goalkeeper making a magnificent dive to the right,

Which is the same in American football in almost every play. When a
pass is completed, it is because the receiver was successful in
deceiving the defender by indicating he was, say, going to the right
and then going to the left. We'd say "He juked right and but then
went left".

So the thing in American football it's not like, in that regard, is a
field goal (and most other kicks).

[Snidely]

[over-trimmed attrib restored:]

Post by b***@aol.com

Post by the Omrud
Not that I'm the person to explain football, but the style of free kick
used to decide a match on "penalties" is the one previously only awarded
for a foul in the penalty area. They've pressed it into service for
another purpose but failed to change its name.

But the phase of the game where this happens has a dedicated name of
"shoot-out", IIRC, and penalty kicks then often seem to be referred to
as just "kicks" or "shots".

In hockey, the NHL (and its top affiliates, like the AHL)
have a shoot-out, and call it so. Purists don't like it, but most fans
do. (We're not trained to expect games to take more than one day)

The shooter gets to skate from the start line to however close to the
goal he wants to get before shooting, and generally dekes in an attempt
to confuse the goalie, but risks losing control of the puck.

The teams alternate shots; ISTR a coin toss is used to select the
option for first shot. 3 rounds are guaranteed, if still tied more
players are sent out. Prior to the shootout, an overtime period is
played, each team using a goalie and 3 skaters. Hocky doesn't have
stoppage time [1] because the clock stops on whistles.


Hockey penalty shots exist, but are rare enough that I'm not sure how
the procedure differs from above.

[1] I saw a headline suggesting that a video review of the WC first
round games showed that stoppage time was very inaccurate.

/ps

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Snidely
[over-trimmed attrib restored:]

Post by b***@aol.com

Post by the Omrud
Not that I'm the person to explain football, but the style of free kick
used to decide a match on "penalties" is the one previously only awarded
for a foul in the penalty area. They've pressed it into service for
another purpose but failed to change its name.

But the phase of the game where this happens has a dedicated name of
"shoot-out", IIRC, and penalty kicks then often seem to be referred to
as just "kicks" or "shots".

In hockey, the NHL (and its top affiliates, like the AHL)
have a shoot-out, and call it so. Purists don't like it, but most fans
do. (We're not trained to expect games to take more than one day)
The shooter gets to skate from the start line to however close to the
goal he wants to get before shooting, and generally dekes in an attempt
to confuse the goalie, but risks losing control of the puck.
The teams alternate shots; ISTR a coin toss is used to select the
option for first shot. 3 rounds are guaranteed, if still tied more
players are sent out. Prior to the shootout, an overtime period is
played, each team using a goalie and 3 skaters. Hocky doesn't have
stoppage time [1] because the clock stops on whistles.
Hockey penalty shots exist, but are rare enough that I'm not sure how
the procedure differs from above.
[1] I saw a headline suggesting that a video review of the WC first
round games showed that stoppage time was very inaccurate.

I saw a story (maybe four years ago?) that one of FIFA's multitudinous
scandals was referees who gauge when to stop the extra time according
to how the scoring was going. (Scoring does tend to happen about two
minutes before the end of whatever time has been set, anyway, it seems
from the sports reports on the nighttime news.)

[bill van]

Post by Snidely
[over-trimmed attrib restored:]

Post by b***@aol.com

Post by the Omrud
Not that I'm the person to explain football, but the style of free kick
used to decide a match on "penalties" is the one previously only
awarded for a foul in the penalty area. They've pressed it into
service for another purpose but failed to change its name.

But the phase of the game where this happens has a dedicated name of
"shoot-out", IIRC, and penalty kicks then often seem to be referred to
as just "kicks" or "shots".

In hockey, the NHL (and its top affiliates, like the AHL)
have a shoot-out, and call it so. Purists don't like it, but most fans
do. (We're not trained to expect games to take more than one day)
The shooter gets to skate from the start line to however close to the
goal he wants to get before shooting, and generally dekes in an attempt
to confuse the goalie, but risks losing control of the puck.
The teams alternate shots; ISTR a coin toss is used to select the
option for first shot. 3 rounds are guaranteed, if still tied more
players are sent out. Prior to the shootout, an overtime period is
played, each team using a goalie and 3 skaters. Hocky doesn't have
stoppage time [1] because the clock stops on whistles.
Hockey penalty shots exist, but are rare enough that I'm not sure how
the procedure differs from above.

Same procedure, except of course there is only one at a time; no
alternating shots. The player taking the shot can't stop and must keep
skating forward, though zig-zagging is allowed.

It should be noted that when the NHL playoffs begin, there are no more
penalty shots to decide a game. They play 20-minute periods until
someone scores. There's usually a goal in the first or second overtime
period, but years ago, five or six overtime periods were not unheard of.

I don't think that works in soccer, because most of the players are on
the pitch the entire game with limited substitutes and they'd be
utterly exhausted. In hockey, you play a shift, usually less than a
minute, and then you get a few minutes on the bench to catch your
breath.

Post by Snidely
[1] I saw a headline suggesting that a video review of the WC first
round games showed that stoppage time was very inaccurate.
/ps

I haven't see that, but when I watch a whole game, I try to estimate
how much stoppage time there will be. I'm usually with a minute,
sometimes two. The referee uses a stop watch and his judgment, and I
think that works pretty well.

bill

[Snidely]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by bill van
You'll know by now that England is headed for the semi-finals. Still
possible is an England-Belgium final, which
would be lovely: two exciting offensive teams whose scoring stars are
just reaching their primes.

Does actual skill have anything to do with it? It seems like just about
every (important) match has been decided by "penalty kicks." (What are
they penalizing them for?)

Not that I'm the person to explain football, but the style of free kick used
to decide a match on "penalties" is the one previously only awarded for a
foul in the penalty area. They've pressed it into service for another
purpose but failed to change its name.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
That nice Mr Bennett on NPR confirmed that it's been more than 50 years
since England did it. One of the more memorable events in my early stamp
collecting years was the "England Wins" overprint on the 1966 World Cup
stamp. Overprints were not normally used by actual countries in peacetime!

Gosh, I'd forgotten that, but I now remember seeing the overprinted stamps.
We were in our caravan in a field in Suffolk in 1966 so we had only a
transistor radio to hear the match.

By 1966, the radio should have had at least 3 transistors!

/dps

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Snidely

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by bill van
You'll know by now that England is headed for the semi-finals. Still
possible is an England-Belgium final, which
would be lovely: two exciting offensive teams whose scoring stars are
just reaching their primes.

Does actual skill have anything to do with it? It seems like just about
every (important) match has been decided by "penalty kicks." (What are
they penalizing them for?)

Not that I'm the person to explain football, but the style of free kick used
to decide a match on "penalties" is the one previously only awarded for a
foul in the penalty area. They've pressed it into service for another
purpose but failed to change its name.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
That nice Mr Bennett on NPR confirmed that it's been more than 50 years
since England did it. One of the more memorable events in my early stamp
collecting years was the "England Wins" overprint on the 1966 World Cup
stamp. Overprints were not normally used by actual countries in peacetime!

Gosh, I'd forgotten that, but I now remember seeing the overprinted stamps.
We were in our caravan in a field in Suffolk in 1966 so we had only a
transistor radio to hear the match.

By 1966, the radio should have had at least 3 transistors!

Back then they didn't talk about trans topics. Christine Jorgensen was a
scandal, and I don't think Jan Morris or Renée Richards had happened yet.

[bill van]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by bill van

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Steve Hayes
England have (has) been counting their chickens before they hatch. Or
at> least their supporters have (has).>>>

For as long as there's been a World Cup. One year the number of chickens
was equal to the number of eggs. It is the nature of the exquisite torture
that all football fans around the world subject themselves to.
However, even should England lose this afternoon I'm sure that most
of us will be more than sufficiently content with having got further
thanGermany! In that sense it's already come home!

You'll know by now that England is headed for the semi-finals. Still
possible is an England-Belgium final, which
would be lovely: two exciting offensive teams whose scoring stars are
just reaching their primes.

Does actual skill have anything to do with it? It seems like just about
every (important) match has been decided by "penalty kicks." (What are
they penalizing them for?)

I've watched seven or eight games, and only one of those has been
decided on penalty kicks. As others have noted, they are not called
penalty kicks but kicks from the penalty spot, or something like it.

The three teams among the semifinalists that I've seen are loaded
with skill. Modric with Croatia and De Bruyne with Belgium, among
others, are magicians with the ball, dribbling, passing and shooting.

There have been some goals from distance, both from free kicks and
in the course of play, that were absolutely unstoppable.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
That nice Mr Bennett on NPR confirmed that it's been more than 50 years
since England did it. One of the more memorable events in my early stamp
collecting years was the "England Wins" overprint on the 1966 World Cup
stamp. Overprints were not normally used by actual countries in peacetime!

I've seen three of the four semifinalists in this World Cup, including England.
England has a real chance to win it, though I'll be cheering for Belgium. They
and Croatia have the most exciting offences I've seen; England is technically
brilliant but very controlled, and they tend to score from set pieces:
corners and
free kicks. Belgium's counter-attacks, spanning the full length of the field,
have been wonderful.

I haven't seen France, so they are a wild card for me. But you can't get
as far as they have with good fortune alone.

bill

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by bill van

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tony Cooper
It's not often I see "waistcoat" in a headline, so I read the article
titled "Did Gareth Southgate Wear an 'It's Coming Home' Waistcoat?"
Certainly not an allusion that registered with me, but what did catch my
eye was a quote of a Marks & Spencer executive: "England have reached
the quarter finals, and frankly, we could not be more excited. With some
saying THE waistcoat has been bringing the team extra luck we thought
how better to mark the big game than launching National Waistcoat Day.
Best of luck to the team - we hope they bring it home!"
I understand why it's not "has", but "England have..." just sounds
wrong.
M&S, of course, has a vested interest in promoting the look. They carry
57 styles of waistcoats.

England have (has) been counting their chickens before they hatch. Or
at> least their supporters have (has).>>>

For as long as there's been a World Cup. One year the number of chickens
was equal to the number of eggs. It is the nature of the exquisite torture
that all football fans around the world subject themselves to.
However, even should England lose this afternoon I'm sure that most
of us will be more than sufficiently content with having got further
thanGermany! In that sense it's already come home!

You'll know by now that England is headed for the semi-finals. Still
possible is an England-Belgium final, which
would be lovely: two exciting offensive teams whose scoring stars are
just reaching their primes.

It would be absolutely lovely to see England loose that.
It would be the perfect revenge for all the Belgium bashing
that they are so fond of.

A kind of divine punshment,

Jan

[Madrigal Gurneyhalt]

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by bill van

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tony Cooper
It's not often I see "waistcoat" in a headline, so I read the article
titled "Did Gareth Southgate Wear an 'It's Coming Home' Waistcoat?"
Certainly not an allusion that registered with me, but what did catch my
eye was a quote of a Marks & Spencer executive: "England have reached
the quarter finals, and frankly, we could not be more excited. With some
saying THE waistcoat has been bringing the team extra luck we thought
how better to mark the big game than launching National Waistcoat Day.
Best of luck to the team - we hope they bring it home!"
I understand why it's not "has", but "England have..." just sounds
wrong.
M&S, of course, has a vested interest in promoting the look. They carry
57 styles of waistcoats.

England have (has) been counting their chickens before they hatch. Or
at> least their supporters have (has).>>>

For as long as there's been a World Cup. One year the number of chickens
was equal to the number of eggs. It is the nature of the exquisite torture
that all football fans around the world subject themselves to.
However, even should England lose this afternoon I'm sure that most
of us will be more than sufficiently content with having got further
thanGermany! In that sense it's already come home!

You'll know by now that England is headed for the semi-finals. Still
possible is an England-Belgium final, which
would be lovely: two exciting offensive teams whose scoring stars are
just reaching their primes.

It would be absolutely lovely to see England loose that.
It would be the perfect revenge for all the Belgium bashing
that they are so fond of.
A kind of divine punshment,

What Belgium bashing? Nobody eats more Brussels sprouts
and Belgian buns. We love Hercule Poirot (to the extent that
we've got one of our best writers to resurrect him!), and
Maigret. We have wonderful saxophone players and worship
Audrey Hepburn.

The French, on the other hand, .....

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

On Sun, 08 Jul 2018 09:57:10 GMT, Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by bill van

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tony Cooper
It's not often I see "waistcoat" in a headline, so I read the
article titled "Did Gareth Southgate Wear an 'It's Coming Home'
Waistcoat?"
Certainly not an allusion that registered with me, but what did
"England have reached the quarter finals, and frankly, we could
not be more excited. With some saying THE waistcoat has been
bringing the team extra luck we thought how better to mark the
big game than launching National Waistcoat Day. Best of luck to
the team - we hope they bring it home!"
I understand why it's not "has", but "England have..." just
sounds wrong.
M&S, of course, has a vested interest in promoting the look.
They carry 57 styles of waistcoats.

England have (has) been counting their chickens before they
hatch. Or at> least their supporters have (has).>>>

For as long as there's been a World Cup. One year the number of
chickens was equal to the number of eggs. It is the nature of the
exquisite torture that all football fans around the world subject
themselves to. However, even should England lose this afternoon
I'm sure that most of us will be more than sufficiently content
with having got further thanGermany! In that sense it's already
come home!

You'll know by now that England is headed for the semi-finals.
Still possible is an England-Belgium final, which
would be lovely: two exciting offensive teams whose scoring stars
are just reaching their primes.

It would be absolutely lovely to see England loose that.
It would be the perfect revenge for all the Belgium bashing
that they are so fond of.
A kind of divine punshment,

What Belgium bashing? Nobody eats more Brussels sprouts
and Belgian buns. We love Hercule Poirot (to the extent that
we've got one of our best writers to resurrect him!), and
Maigret. We have wonderful saxophone players and worship
Audrey Hepburn.

You forgot about the BEER!

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
The French, on the other hand, .....

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Sun, 08 Jul 2018 09:57:10 GMT, Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by bill van

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tony Cooper
It's not often I see "waistcoat" in a headline, so I read the
article titled "Did Gareth Southgate Wear an 'It's Coming Home'
Waistcoat?"
Certainly not an allusion that registered with me, but what did
"England have reached the quarter finals, and frankly, we could
not be more excited. With some saying THE waistcoat has been
bringing the team extra luck we thought how better to mark the
big game than launching National Waistcoat Day. Best of luck to
the team - we hope they bring it home!"
I understand why it's not "has", but "England have..." just
sounds wrong.
M&S, of course, has a vested interest in promoting the look.
They carry 57 styles of waistcoats.

England have (has) been counting their chickens before they
hatch. Or at> least their supporters have (has).>>>

For as long as there's been a World Cup. One year the number of
chickens was equal to the number of eggs. It is the nature of the
exquisite torture that all football fans around the world subject
themselves to. However, even should England lose this afternoon
I'm sure that most of us will be more than sufficiently content
with having got further thanGermany! In that sense it's already
come home!

You'll know by now that England is headed for the semi-finals.
Still possible is an England-Belgium final, which
would be lovely: two exciting offensive teams whose scoring stars
are just reaching their primes.

It would be absolutely lovely to see England loose that.
It would be the perfect revenge for all the Belgium bashing
that they are so fond of.
A kind of divine punshment,

What Belgium bashing? Nobody eats more Brussels sprouts
and Belgian buns. We love Hercule Poirot (to the extent that
we've got one of our best writers to resurrect him!), and
Maigret. We have wonderful saxophone players and worship
Audrey Hepburn.

You forgot about the BEER!

Right. So did I. Best beer in the world.

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
The French, on the other hand, .....

[the Omrud]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Sun, 08 Jul 2018 09:57:10 GMT, Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by bill van

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tony Cooper
It's not often I see "waistcoat" in a headline, so I read the
article titled "Did Gareth Southgate Wear an 'It's Coming Home'
Waistcoat?"
Certainly not an allusion that registered with me, but what did
"England have reached the quarter finals, and frankly, we could
not be more excited. With some saying THE waistcoat has been
bringing the team extra luck we thought how better to mark the
big game than launching National Waistcoat Day. Best of luck to
the team - we hope they bring it home!"
I understand why it's not "has", but "England have..." just
sounds wrong.
M&S, of course, has a vested interest in promoting the look.
They carry 57 styles of waistcoats.

England have (has) been counting their chickens before they
hatch. Or at> least their supporters have (has).>>>

For as long as there's been a World Cup. One year the number of
chickens was equal to the number of eggs. It is the nature of the
exquisite torture that all football fans around the world subject
themselves to. However, even should England lose this afternoon
I'm sure that most of us will be more than sufficiently content
with having got further thanGermany! In that sense it's already
come home!

You'll know by now that England is headed for the semi-finals.
Still possible is an England-Belgium final, which
would be lovely: two exciting offensive teams whose scoring stars
are just reaching their primes.

It would be absolutely lovely to see England loose that.
It would be the perfect revenge for all the Belgium bashing
that they are so fond of.
A kind of divine punshment,

What Belgium bashing? Nobody eats more Brussels sprouts
and Belgian buns. We love Hercule Poirot (to the extent that
we've got one of our best writers to resurrect him!), and
Maigret. We have wonderful saxophone players and worship
Audrey Hepburn.

You forgot about the BEER!

Right. So did I. Best beer in the world.

And in general, the only draft beer worth drinking in France. Unless
you happen to be in Strasbourg, which is basically German anyway.

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

Post by the Omrud

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Sun, 08 Jul 2018 09:57:10 GMT, Madrigal Gurneyhalt

[non beer]

Post by the Omrud

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
You forgot about the BEER!

Right. So did I. Best beer in the world.

And in general, the only draft beer worth drinking in France. Unless
you happen to be in Strasbourg, which is basically German anyway.

Draught? (UkE). I was talking about the Trappist beer; I've only seen it
on draught at a monastery.

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Sun, 08 Jul 2018 09:57:10 GMT, Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by bill van

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tony Cooper
It's not often I see "waistcoat" in a headline, so I read the
article titled "Did Gareth Southgate Wear an 'It's Coming Home'
Waistcoat?"
Certainly not an allusion that registered with me, but what did
"England have reached the quarter finals, and frankly, we could
not be more excited. With some saying THE waistcoat has been
bringing the team extra luck we thought how better to mark the
big game than launching National Waistcoat Day. Best of luck to
the team - we hope they bring it home!"
I understand why it's not "has", but "England have..." just
sounds wrong.
M&S, of course, has a vested interest in promoting the look.
They carry 57 styles of waistcoats.

England have (has) been counting their chickens before they
hatch. Or at> least their supporters have (has).>>>

For as long as there's been a World Cup. One year the number of
chickens was equal to the number of eggs. It is the nature of the
exquisite torture that all football fans around the world subject
themselves to. However, even should England lose this afternoon
I'm sure that most of us will be more than sufficiently content
with having got further thanGermany! In that sense it's already
come home!

You'll know by now that England is headed for the semi-finals.
Still possible is an England-Belgium final, which
would be lovely: two exciting offensive teams whose scoring stars
are just reaching their primes.

It would be absolutely lovely to see England loose that.
It would be the perfect revenge for all the Belgium bashing
that they are so fond of.
A kind of divine punshment,

What Belgium bashing? Nobody eats more Brussels sprouts
and Belgian buns. We love Hercule Poirot (to the extent that
we've got one of our best writers to resurrect him!), and
Maigret. We have wonderful saxophone players and worship
Audrey Hepburn.

You forgot about the BEER!

Right. So did I. Best beer in the world.

Exercise: Learn to pronounce all those names correctly,

Jan

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by bill van

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tony Cooper
It's not often I see "waistcoat" in a headline, so I read the article
titled "Did Gareth Southgate Wear an 'It's Coming Home' Waistcoat?"
Certainly not an allusion that registered with me, but what did catch my
eye was a quote of a Marks & Spencer executive: "England have reached
the quarter finals, and frankly, we could not be more excited. With some
saying THE waistcoat has been bringing the team extra luck we thought
how better to mark the big game than launching National Waistcoat Day.
Best of luck to the team - we hope they bring it home!"
I understand why it's not "has", but "England have..." just sounds
wrong.
M&S, of course, has a vested interest in promoting the look. They carry
57 styles of waistcoats.

England have (has) been counting their chickens before they hatch. Or
at> least their supporters have (has).>>>

For as long as there's been a World Cup. One year the number of chickens
was equal to the number of eggs. It is the nature of the exquisite torture
that all football fans around the world subject themselves to.
However, even should England lose this afternoon I'm sure that most
of us will be more than sufficiently content with having got further
thanGermany! In that sense it's already come home!

You'll know by now that England is headed for the semi-finals. Still
possible is an England-Belgium final, which
would be lovely: two exciting offensive teams whose scoring stars are
just reaching their primes.

It would be absolutely lovely to see England loose that.
It would be the perfect revenge for all the Belgium bashing
that they are so fond of.
A kind of divine punshment,

What Belgium bashing? Nobody eats more Brussels sprouts
and Belgian buns. We love Hercule Poirot (to the extent that
we've got one of our best writers to resurrect him!), and
Maigret. We have wonderful saxophone players and worship
Audrey Hepburn.

Not to mention Magritte and Georges Lemaître

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
The French, on the other hand, .....

[the Omrud]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by bill van

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tony Cooper
It's not often I see "waistcoat" in a headline, so I read the article
titled "Did Gareth Southgate Wear an 'It's Coming Home' Waistcoat?"
Certainly not an allusion that registered with me, but what did catch my
eye was a quote of a Marks & Spencer executive: "England have reached
the quarter finals, and frankly, we could not be more excited. With some
saying THE waistcoat has been bringing the team extra luck we thought
how better to mark the big game than launching National Waistcoat Day.
Best of luck to the team - we hope they bring it home!"
I understand why it's not "has", but "England have..." just sounds
wrong.
M&S, of course, has a vested interest in promoting the look.
They carry
57 styles of waistcoats.

England have (has) been counting their chickens before they hatch. Or
at> least their supporters have (has).>>>

For as long as there's been a World Cup. One year the number of chickens
was equal to the number of eggs. It is the nature of the exquisite torture
that all football fans around the world subject themselves to.
However, even should England lose this afternoon I'm sure that most
of us will be more than sufficiently content with having got further
thanGermany! In that sense it's already come home!

You'll know by now that England is headed for the semi-finals. Still
possible is an England-Belgium final, which
would be lovely: two exciting offensive teams whose scoring stars are
just reaching their primes.

It would be absolutely lovely to see England loose that.
It would be the perfect revenge for all the Belgium bashing
that they are so fond of.
A kind of divine punshment,

What Belgium bashing? Nobody eats more Brussels sprouts
and Belgian buns. We love Hercule Poirot (to the extent that
we've got one of our best writers to resurrect him!), and
Maigret. We have wonderful saxophone players and worship
Audrey Hepburn.

Not to mention Magritte and Georges Lemaître

And Tintin.

[RH Draney]

Post by the Omrud

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
What Belgium bashing? Nobody eats more Brussels sprouts
and Belgian buns. We love Hercule Poirot (to the extent that
we've got one of our best writers to resurrect him!), and
Maigret. We have wonderful saxophone players and worship
Audrey Hepburn.

Not to mention Magritte and Georges Lemaître

And Tintin.

And Plastic Bertrand....r

[the Omrud]

Post by RH Draney

Post by the Omrud

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
What Belgium bashing? Nobody eats more Brussels sprouts
and Belgian buns. We love Hercule Poirot (to the extent that
we've got one of our best writers to resurrect him!), and
Maigret. We have wonderful saxophone players and worship
Audrey Hepburn.

Not to mention Magritte and Georges Lemaître

And Tintin.

And Plastic Bertrand....r

And the Singing Nun.

[Lanarcam]

Post by the Omrud

Post by RH Draney

Post by the Omrud

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
What Belgium bashing? Nobody eats more Brussels sprouts
and Belgian buns. We love Hercule Poirot (to the extent that
we've got one of our best writers to resurrect him!), and
Maigret. We have wonderful saxophone players and worship
Audrey Hepburn.

Not to mention Magritte and Georges Lemaître

And Tintin.

And Plastic Bertrand....r

And the Singing Nun.

And Gaston Lagaffe.

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Lanarcam

Post by the Omrud

Post by RH Draney

Post by the Omrud

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
What Belgium bashing? Nobody eats more Brussels sprouts
and Belgian buns. We love Hercule Poirot (to the extent that
we've got one of our best writers to resurrect him!), and
Maigret. We have wonderful saxophone players and worship
Audrey Hepburn.

Not to mention Magritte and Georges Lemaître

And Tintin.

And Plastic Bertrand....r

And the Singing Nun.

And Gaston Lagaffe.

Who has few admirers outside Belgium and France.
His kind of humor doesn't translate well,
if at all,

Jan

[Lanarcam]

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Lanarcam

Post by the Omrud

Post by RH Draney

Post by the Omrud

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
What Belgium bashing? Nobody eats more Brussels sprouts
and Belgian buns. We love Hercule Poirot (to the extent that
we've got one of our best writers to resurrect him!), and
Maigret. We have wonderful saxophone players and worship
Audrey Hepburn.

Not to mention Magritte and Georges Lemaître

And Tintin.

And Plastic Bertrand....r

And the Singing Nun.

And Gaston Lagaffe.

Who has few admirers outside Belgium and France.
His kind of humor doesn't translate well,
if at all,

Especially if you have no sense of humour...

[musika]

Post by Lanarcam

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Lanarcam
And Gaston Lagaffe.

Who has few admirers outside Belgium and France.
His kind of humor doesn't translate well,
if at all,

Especially if you have no sense of humour...

<grin>

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Lanarcam

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Lanarcam

Post by the Omrud

Post by RH Draney

Post by the Omrud

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
What Belgium bashing? Nobody eats more Brussels sprouts
and Belgian buns. We love Hercule Poirot (to the extent that
we've got one of our best writers to resurrect him!), and
Maigret. We have wonderful saxophone players and worship
Audrey Hepburn.

Not to mention Magritte and Georges Lemaître

And Tintin.

And Plastic Bertrand....r

And the Singing Nun.

And Gaston Lagaffe.

Who has few admirers outside Belgium and France.
His kind of humor doesn't translate well,
if at all,

Especially if you have no sense of humour...

Perhaps the French (and Americans)
could in their turn learn to appreciate Red Dwarf,

Jan

[the Omrud]

Post by Lanarcam

Post by the Omrud

Post by RH Draney

Post by the Omrud

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
What Belgium bashing? Nobody eats more Brussels sprouts
and Belgian buns. We love Hercule Poirot (to the extent that
we've got one of our best writers to resurrect him!), and
Maigret. We have wonderful saxophone players and worship
Audrey Hepburn.

Not to mention Magritte and Georges Lemaître

And Tintin.

And Plastic Bertrand....r

And the Singing Nun.

And Gaston Lagaffe.

And Brel.

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by bill van

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tony Cooper
It's not often I see "waistcoat" in a headline, so I read the article
titled "Did Gareth Southgate Wear an 'It's Coming Home' Waistcoat?"
Certainly not an allusion that registered with me, but what did
catch my eye was a quote of a Marks & Spencer executive: "England
have reached the quarter finals, and frankly, we could not be more
excited. With some saying THE waistcoat has been bringing the team
extra luck we thought how better to mark the big game than
launching National Waistcoat Day. Best of luck to the team - we
hope they bring it home!"
I understand why it's not "has", but "England have..." just sounds
wrong.
M&S, of course, has a vested interest in promoting the look. They
carry 57 styles of waistcoats.

England have (has) been counting their chickens before they hatch.
Or at> least their supporters have (has).>>>

For as long as there's been a World Cup. One year the number of
chickens was equal to the number of eggs. It is the nature of the
exquisite torture that all football fans around the world subject
themselves to. However, even should England lose this afternoon I'm
sure that most of us will be more than sufficiently content with
having got further thanGermany! In that sense it's already come
home!

You'll know by now that England is headed for the semi-finals. Still
possible is an England-Belgium final, which
would be lovely: two exciting offensive teams whose scoring stars are
just reaching their primes.

It would be absolutely lovely to see England loose that.
It would be the perfect revenge for all the Belgium bashing
that they are so fond of.
A kind of divine punshment,

What Belgium bashing? Nobody eats more Brussels sprouts
and Belgian buns. We love Hercule Poirot (to the extent that
we've got one of our best writers to resurrect him!), and
Maigret.

For a compilation, see for example

(ten minutes)
Just te first google comes up with.

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
We have wonderful saxophone players and worship
Audrey Hepburn.

Who has as much claim to being Dutch,
if not English,

Jan

[Madrigal Gurneyhalt]

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by bill van

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tony Cooper
It's not often I see "waistcoat" in a headline, so I read the article
titled "Did Gareth Southgate Wear an 'It's Coming Home' Waistcoat?"
Certainly not an allusion that registered with me, but what did
catch my eye was a quote of a Marks & Spencer executive: "England
have reached the quarter finals, and frankly, we could not be more
excited. With some saying THE waistcoat has been bringing the team
extra luck we thought how better to mark the big game than
launching National Waistcoat Day. Best of luck to the team - we
hope they bring it home!"
I understand why it's not "has", but "England have..." just sounds
wrong.
M&S, of course, has a vested interest in promoting the look. They
carry 57 styles of waistcoats.

England have (has) been counting their chickens before they hatch.
Or at> least their supporters have (has).>>>

For as long as there's been a World Cup. One year the number of
chickens was equal to the number of eggs. It is the nature of the
exquisite torture that all football fans around the world subject
themselves to. However, even should England lose this afternoon I'm
sure that most of us will be more than sufficiently content with
having got further thanGermany! In that sense it's already come
home!

You'll know by now that England is headed for the semi-finals. Still
possible is an England-Belgium final, which
would be lovely: two exciting offensive teams whose scoring stars are
just reaching their primes.

It would be absolutely lovely to see England loose that.
It would be the perfect revenge for all the Belgium bashing
that they are so fond of.
A kind of divine punshment,

What Belgium bashing? Nobody eats more Brussels sprouts
and Belgian buns. We love Hercule Poirot (to the extent that
we've got one of our best writers to resurrect him!), and
Maigret.

For a compilation, see for example
http://youtu.be/nBSTzZejCFE
(ten minutes)
Just te first google comes up with.

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
We have wonderful saxophone players and worship
Audrey Hepburn.

Who has as much claim to being Dutch,
if not English,

She was born in Brussels and is on the Wikipedia list of famous
Belgians. That's all that matters!

[J. J. Lodder]

[snip]

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by bill van
You'll know by now that England is headed for the semi-finals. Still
possible is an England-Belgium final, which
would be lovely: two exciting offensive teams whose scoring stars are
just reaching their primes.

It would be absolutely lovely to see England loose that.
It would be the perfect revenge for all the Belgium bashing
that they are so fond of.
A kind of divine punshment,

What Belgium bashing? Nobody eats more Brussels sprouts
and Belgian buns. We love Hercule Poirot (to the extent that
we've got one of our best writers to resurrect him!), and
Maigret.

For a compilation, see for example
http://youtu.be/nBSTzZejCFE
(ten minutes)
Just te first google comes up with.

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
We have wonderful saxophone players and worship
Audrey Hepburn.

Who has as much claim to being Dutch,
if not English,

She was born in Brussels and is on the Wikipedia list of famous
Belgians. That's all that matters!

From Wikip
==========

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt
List of Belgians
From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
* are or were Belgian citizens at least for sometime in their life,
* were born in Belgium or in the provinces of present-day Belgium,
but who were not or are not Belgian citizens (either because Belgium did
not exist at the time of their life or because they had or have another
citizenship). The names of people of this category are italicized.

=========
As is Audry Hepburn's name.
So by Wikip she never was a Belgian citizen, [1]

Jan

[1] Don't know about her nationality
while she lived with in The Netherlands with her mother.
(after her parent's divorce)

[Lewis]

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by bill van

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tony Cooper
It's not often I see "waistcoat" in a headline, so I read the article
titled "Did Gareth Southgate Wear an 'It's Coming Home' Waistcoat?"
Certainly not an allusion that registered with me, but what did catch my
eye was a quote of a Marks & Spencer executive: "England have reached
the quarter finals, and frankly, we could not be more excited. With some
saying THE waistcoat has been bringing the team extra luck we thought
how better to mark the big game than launching National Waistcoat Day.
Best of luck to the team - we hope they bring it home!"
I understand why it's not "has", but "England have..." just sounds
wrong.
M&S, of course, has a vested interest in promoting the look. They carry
57 styles of waistcoats.

England have (has) been counting their chickens before they hatch. Or
at> least their supporters have (has).>>>

For as long as there's been a World Cup. One year the number of chickens
was equal to the number of eggs. It is the nature of the exquisite torture
that all football fans around the world subject themselves to.
However, even should England lose this afternoon I'm sure that most
of us will be more than sufficiently content with having got further
thanGermany! In that sense it's already come home!

You'll know by now that England is headed for the semi-finals. Still
possible is an England-Belgium final, which
would be lovely: two exciting offensive teams whose scoring stars are
just reaching their primes.

It would be absolutely lovely to see England loose that.
It would be the perfect revenge for all the Belgium bashing
that they are so fond of.

Oh, right, is only the Brits that do that...

No wait, that's not the case.

The only match I had strong feelings about, if you could call them that,
was Russia v Croatia where I desperately wanted Russia to lose. I am
glad England won against Sweden, but I would have been fine had they
lost. I don't know how well they match up against Croatia, but I have to
think England has a very good chance of being in the final, perhaps a
better chance than the other 3 teams, though I expect France will win in
the end as I think they'll get past Belgium.

If England wins, there will be wild and spectacular celebrations all
across Britain for about 16 minutes before fans start grousing about the
next world cup.

The money is certainly favoring France and England winning, which is
usually a pretty good indicator on where the knowledgeable people stand.

(I have no dog in this hunt, I will probably watch the England match
because I will be somewhere it will be on, and why not. But it's not
something I would seek out.)

[Madrigal Gurneyhalt]

Post by Lewis

Post by J. J. Lodder

Post by bill van

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tony Cooper
It's not often I see "waistcoat" in a headline, so I read the article
titled "Did Gareth Southgate Wear an 'It's Coming Home' Waistcoat?"
Certainly not an allusion that registered with me, but what did catch my
eye was a quote of a Marks & Spencer executive: "England have reached
the quarter finals, and frankly, we could not be more excited. With some
saying THE waistcoat has been bringing the team extra luck we thought
how better to mark the big game than launching National Waistcoat Day.
Best of luck to the team - we hope they bring it home!"
I understand why it's not "has", but "England have..." just sounds
wrong.
M&S, of course, has a vested interest in promoting the look. They carry
57 styles of waistcoats.

England have (has) been counting their chickens before they hatch. Or
at> least their supporters have (has).>>>

For as long as there's been a World Cup. One year the number of chickens
was equal to the number of eggs. It is the nature of the exquisite torture
that all football fans around the world subject themselves to.
However, even should England lose this afternoon I'm sure that most
of us will be more than sufficiently content with having got further
thanGermany! In that sense it's already come home!

You'll know by now that England is headed for the semi-finals. Still
possible is an England-Belgium final, which
would be lovely: two exciting offensive teams whose scoring stars are
just reaching their primes.

It would be absolutely lovely to see England loose that.
It would be the perfect revenge for all the Belgium bashing
that they are so fond of.

Oh, right, is only the Brits that do that...
No wait, that's not the case.
The only match I had strong feelings about, if you could call them that,
was Russia v Croatia where I desperately wanted Russia to lose. I am
glad England won against Sweden, but I would have been fine had they
lost. I don't know how well they match up against Croatia, but I have to
think England has a very good chance of being in the final, perhaps a
better chance than the other 3 teams, though I expect France will win in
the end as I think they'll get past Belgium.
If England wins, there will be wild and spectacular celebrations all
across Britain for about 16 minutes before fans start grousing about the
next world cup.

We've got the European Championships in 2020 to worry about first.
And real fans will have next year's Women's World Cup foremost - we
are actually EXPECTED to do well in that - semi-final at the worst!

[John Dunlop]

Post by Lewis
If England wins, there will be wild and spectacular celebrations all
across Britain [...]

No there won't.

[Paul Wolff]

Post by John Dunlop

Post by Lewis
If England wins, there will be wild and spectacular celebrations all
across Britain [...]

No there won't.

They're a dour lot indeed, those Scots.

If it were the other way about, and Scotland had a team in England's
position, I think the English would support a Scotland win. That's
because we're nice.

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

On Sun, 08 Jul 2018 13:08:53 GMT, Paul Wolff

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by John Dunlop

Post by Lewis
If England wins, there will be wild and spectacular celebrations all
across Britain [...]

No there won't.

They're a dour lot indeed, those Scots.
If it were the other way about, and Scotland had a team in England's
position, I think the English would support a Scotland win. That's
because we're nice.

Other nations are available.

[John Dunlop]

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Sun, 08 Jul 2018 13:08:53 GMT, Paul Wolff

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by John Dunlop

Post by Lewis
If England wins, there will be wild and spectacular celebrations all
across Britain [...]

No there won't.

They're a dour lot indeed, those Scots.
If it were the other way about, and Scotland had a team in England's
position, I think the English would support a Scotland win. That's
because we're nice.

Other nations are available.

Aye, there's an Auld Alliance to resume -- or Belgian chocolates to
consume, to name a sought-after Belgian export not mentioned elsethread.
Waffles, too. After a recent trip to Brussels I can heartily recommend
the Sister Brussels Cafe, the only place we found that had gluten-free
waffles, suitable for coeliacs, not just the out-of-choicers.

[charles]

Post by John Dunlop

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Sun, 08 Jul 2018 13:08:53 GMT, Paul Wolff

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by John Dunlop

Post by Lewis
If England wins, there will be wild and spectacular celebrations all
across Britain [...]

No there won't.

They're a dour lot indeed, those Scots.
If it were the other way about, and Scotland had a team in England's
position, I think the English would support a Scotland win. That's
because we're nice.

Other nations are available.

Aye, there's an Auld Alliance to resume -- or Belgian chocolates to
consume, to name a sought-after Belgian export not mentioned elsethread.
Waffles, too. After a recent trip to Brussels I can heartily recommend
the Sister Brussels Cafe, the only place we found that had gluten-free
waffles, suitable for coeliacs, not just the out-of-choicers.

don't forget "Moules et Frites". Oh, and we found a gluten free waffle
shop in Sarlat in the south of France earlier this year.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by charles

Post by John Dunlop

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Sun, 08 Jul 2018 13:08:53 GMT, Paul Wolff

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by John Dunlop

Post by Lewis
If England wins, there will be wild and spectacular celebrations all
across Britain [...]

No there won't.

They're a dour lot indeed, those Scots.
If it were the other way about, and Scotland had a team in England's
position, I think the English would support a Scotland win. That's
because we're nice.

Other nations are available.

Aye, there's an Auld Alliance to resume -- or Belgian chocolates to
consume, to name a sought-after Belgian export not mentioned elsethread.
Waffles, too. After a recent trip to Brussels I can heartily recommend
the Sister Brussels Cafe, the only place we found that had gluten-free
waffles, suitable for coeliacs, not just the out-of-choicers.

don't forget "Moules et Frites".

Not to mention "French fries".

Post by charles
Oh, and we found a gluten free waffle
shop in Sarlat in the south of France earlier this year.

[charles]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by charles

Post by John Dunlop

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Sun, 08 Jul 2018 13:08:53 GMT, Paul Wolff

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by John Dunlop

Post by Lewis
If England wins, there will be wild and spectacular celebrations
all across Britain [...]

No there won't.

They're a dour lot indeed, those Scots.
If it were the other way about, and Scotland had a team in England's
position, I think the English would support a Scotland win. That's
because we're nice.

Other nations are available.

Aye, there's an Auld Alliance to resume -- or Belgian chocolates to
consume, to name a sought-after Belgian export not mentioned
elsethread. Waffles, too. After a recent trip to Brussels I can
heartily recommend the Sister Brussels Cafe, the only place we found
that had gluten-free waffles, suitable for coeliacs, not just the
out-of-choicers.

don't forget "Moules et Frites".

Not to mention "French fries".

isn't that what frites are? yes, I know you said "French" - I've heard the
story before

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by charles

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by charles

Post by John Dunlop

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Sun, 08 Jul 2018 13:08:53 GMT, Paul Wolff

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by John Dunlop

Post by Lewis
If England wins, there will be wild and spectacular celebrations
all across Britain [...]

No there won't.

They're a dour lot indeed, those Scots.
If it were the other way about, and Scotland had a team in England's
position, I think the English would support a Scotland win. That's
because we're nice.

Other nations are available.

Aye, there's an Auld Alliance to resume -- or Belgian chocolates to
consume, to name a sought-after Belgian export not mentioned
elsethread. Waffles, too. After a recent trip to Brussels I can
heartily recommend the Sister Brussels Cafe, the only place we found
that had gluten-free waffles, suitable for coeliacs, not just the
out-of-choicers.

don't forget "Moules et Frites".

Not to mention "French fries".

isn't that what frites are? yes, I know you said "French" - I've heard the
story before

"French fries" are what the Americans call them, but they first
encountered them in Belgium.

[RH Draney]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Not to mention "French fries".

isn't that what frites are?  yes, I know you said "French" - I've
heard the
story before

"French fries" are what the Americans call them, but they first
encountered them in Belgium.

Not this American...I first encountered them in Tujunga....r

[charles]

Post by RH Draney

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by charles

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Not to mention "French fries".

isn't that what frites are? yes, I know you said "French" - I've heard the
story before

"French fries" are what the Americans call them, but they first
encountered them in Belgium.

Not this American...I first encountered them in Tujunga....r

It was 100 years ago that the name came into being, so you're forgiven.

[Ken Blake]

Post by charles

Post by John Dunlop

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Sun, 08 Jul 2018 13:08:53 GMT, Paul Wolff

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by John Dunlop

Post by Lewis
If England wins, there will be wild and spectacular celebrations all
across Britain [...]

No there won't.

They're a dour lot indeed, those Scots.
If it were the other way about, and Scotland had a team in England's
position, I think the English would support a Scotland win. That's
because we're nice.

Other nations are available.

Aye, there's an Auld Alliance to resume -- or Belgian chocolates to
consume, to name a sought-after Belgian export not mentioned elsethread.
Waffles, too. After a recent trip to Brussels I can heartily recommend
the Sister Brussels Cafe, the only place we found that had gluten-free
waffles, suitable for coeliacs, not just the out-of-choicers.

don't forget "Moules et Frites".

Isn't it more commonly called "moules frites"? I don't recall ever
seeing it called "moules et frites' when I was in Brussels a few years
ago.

"Moules frites" always seems like a strange name to me. It looks like
it should be translated as "fried mussels." I think the "et" should be
there, but in my experience it never is.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by charles

Post by John Dunlop

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Sun, 08 Jul 2018 13:08:53 GMT, Paul Wolff

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by John Dunlop

Post by Lewis
If England wins, there will be wild and spectacular celebrations all
across Britain [...]

No there won't.

They're a dour lot indeed, those Scots.
If it were the other way about, and Scotland had a team in England's
position, I think the English would support a Scotland win. That's
because we're nice.

Other nations are available.

Aye, there's an Auld Alliance to resume -- or Belgian chocolates to
consume, to name a sought-after Belgian export not mentioned elsethread.
Waffles, too. After a recent trip to Brussels I can heartily recommend
the Sister Brussels Cafe, the only place we found that had gluten-free
waffles, suitable for coeliacs, not just the out-of-choicers.

don't forget "Moules et Frites".

Isn't it more commonly called "moules frites"? I don't recall ever
seeing it called "moules et frites' when I was in Brussels a few years
ago.
"Moules frites" always seems like a strange name to me. It looks like
it should be translated as "fried mussels." I think the "et" should be
there, but in my experience it never is.

I think so too.

[charles]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Ken Blake

Post by charles

Post by John Dunlop

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Sun, 08 Jul 2018 13:08:53 GMT, Paul Wolff

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by John Dunlop

Post by Lewis
If England wins, there will be wild and spectacular celebrations all
across Britain [...]

No there won't.

They're a dour lot indeed, those Scots.
If it were the other way about, and Scotland had a team in England's
position, I think the English would support a Scotland win. That's
because we're nice.

Other nations are available.

Aye, there's an Auld Alliance to resume -- or Belgian chocolates to
consume, to name a sought-after Belgian export not mentioned elsethread.
Waffles, too. After a recent trip to Brussels I can heartily recommend
the Sister Brussels Cafe, the only place we found that had gluten-free
waffles, suitable for coeliacs, not just the out-of-choicers.

don't forget "Moules et Frites".

Isn't it more commonly called "moules frites"? I don't recall ever
seeing it called "moules et frites' when I was in Brussels a few years
ago.
"Moules frites" always seems like a strange name to me. It looks like
it should be translated as "fried mussels." I think the "et" should be
there, but in my experience it never is.

I think so too.

perhaps, I'm misremembring my trip to Bruges (2001). I ssupect it's
restaurants in England trying to be claasy and foreign that led to my
confusion.

[the Omrud]

Post by Ken Blake

Post by charles
don't forget "Moules et Frites".

Isn't it more commonly called "moules frites"? I don't recall ever
seeing it called "moules et frites' when I was in Brussels a few years
ago.
"Moules frites" always seems like a strange name to me. It looks like
it should be translated as "fried mussels." I think the "et" should be
there, but in my experience it never is.

Yes, "moules frites" is the usual term. Just idiom, I suppose.

FWIW we have discovered that there's a mussels restaurant in Chester
(they're not common in this part of the world); we plan to eat there
this evening before attending the quinquennial Chester Mystery Plays.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by the Omrud

Post by Ken Blake

Post by charles
don't forget "Moules et Frites".

Isn't it more commonly called "moules frites"? I don't recall ever
seeing it called "moules et frites' when I was in Brussels a few years
ago.
"Moules frites" always seems like a strange name to me. It looks like
it should be translated as "fried mussels." I think the "et" should be
there, but in my experience it never is.

Yes, "moules frites" is the usual term. Just idiom, I suppose.
FWIW we have discovered that there's a mussels restaurant in Chester
(they're not common in this part of the world); we plan to eat there
this evening before attending the quinquennial Chester Mystery Plays.

Let's hope they get their mussels from somewhere sufficiently far from
the Mersey estuary.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by John Dunlop

Post by Lewis
If England wins, there will be wild and spectacular celebrations all
across Britain [...]

No there won't.

They're a dour lot indeed, those Scots.
If it were the other way about, and Scotland had a team in England's
position, I think the English would support a Scotland win. That's
because we're nice.

Who do you think you are, Canadians?

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sun, 8 Jul 2018 14:08:53 +0100, Paul Wolff

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by John Dunlop

Post by Lewis
If England wins, there will be wild and spectacular celebrations all
across Britain [...]

No there won't.

They're a dour lot indeed, those Scots.
If it were the other way about, and Scotland had a team in England's
position, I think the English would support a Scotland win. That's
because we're nice.

There is an article in today's Sunday Times[1] reporting from Dublin. It
is headed:

Irish football fans cheer on Three Lions

A market research company surveyed 1000 adults in Ireland. 24% of Irish
football fans agreed with the statement "we would like England to win
the World Cup", with 17% saying they were actively supporting England.

Paul Hickey, a member of Irish fans' group You Boys in Green, said
that the sympathies of many Irish football fans who follow Premier
League[2] clubs were naturally with the English team. "A lot of
Irish football fans see these players playing for teams they support
every week on the television and will want them to at least do
well".

[1] The Sunday Times has its head office in London. It is distributed
throughout Britain and Ireland. The version distributed in Ireland is
largely the same as that sold in Britain but has some articles specific
to Ireland, particularly sport.

[2] The Premier League is the top football league in England.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by John Dunlop

Post by Lewis
If England wins, there will be wild and spectacular celebrations all
across Britain [...]

No there won't.

I think he's confusing England with Britain.

[Lewis]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by John Dunlop

Post by Lewis
If England wins, there will be wild and spectacular celebrations all
across Britain [...]

No there won't.

I think he's confusing England with Britain.

No, I'm not. I chose my words carefully.

Even with this match the few friends of mine in Scotland and Wales who
are fans of football at all are "well chuffed".

[Lewis]

Post by John Dunlop

Post by Lewis
If England wins, there will be wild and spectacular celebrations all
across Britain [...]

No there won't.

Bet?

[Paul Wolff]

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tony Cooper
It's not often I see "waistcoat" in a headline, so I read the article
titled "Did Gareth Southgate Wear an 'It's Coming Home' Waistcoat?"
Certainly not an allusion that registered with me, but what did catch my
eye was a quote of a Marks & Spencer executive: “England have reached
the quarter finals, and frankly, we could not be more excited. With some
saying THE waistcoat has been bringing the team extra luck we thought
how better to mark the big game than launching National Waistcoat Day.
Best of luck to the team – we hope they bring it home!”
I understand why it's not "has", but "England have..." just sounds
wrong.
M&S, of course, has a vested interest in promoting the look. They carry
57 styles of waistcoats.

England have (has) been counting their chickens before they hatch. Or at
least their supporters have (has).

They are suffering from Appointment in Samara syndrome.

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

On Sat, 07 Jul 2018 14:34:53 GMT, Paul Wolff

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tony Cooper
It's not often I see "waistcoat" in a headline, so I read the
article titled "Did Gareth Southgate Wear an 'It's Coming Home'
Waistcoat?"
Certainly not an allusion that registered with me, but what did
catch my eye was a quote of a Marks & Spencer executive: “England
have reached the quarter finals, and frankly, we could not be more
excited. With some saying THE waistcoat has been bringing the team
extra luck we thought how better to mark the big game than launching
National Waistcoat Day. Best of luck to the team – we hope they
bring it home!”
I understand why it's not "has", but "England have..." just sounds
wrong.
M&S, of course, has a vested interest in promoting the look. They
carry 57 styles of waistcoats.

England have (has) been counting their chickens before they hatch. Or
at least their supporters have (has).

They are suffering from Appointment in Samara syndrome.

It's as hot there as here - and they're 3 hours ahead!

Sweden don't look that impressive ATM.
Anyway Russia will win; it was clear from when Putin "won" the right to
stage it.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Sat, 07 Jul 2018 14:34:53 GMT, Paul Wolff

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tony Cooper
It's not often I see "waistcoat" in a headline, so I read the
article titled "Did Gareth Southgate Wear an 'It's Coming Home'
Waistcoat?"
Certainly not an allusion that registered with me, but what did
catch my eye was a quote of a Marks & Spencer executive: “England
have reached the quarter finals, and frankly, we could not be more
excited. With some saying THE waistcoat has been bringing the team
extra luck we thought how better to mark the big game than launching
National Waistcoat Day. Best of luck to the team – we hope they
bring it home!”
I understand why it's not "has", but "England have..." just sounds
wrong.
M&S, of course, has a vested interest in promoting the look. They
carry 57 styles of waistcoats.

England have (has) been counting their chickens before they hatch. Or
at least their supporters have (has).

They are suffering from Appointment in Samara syndrome.

It's as hot there as here - and they're 3 hours ahead!
Sweden don't look that impressive ATM.
This is shaping up to be a potential massacre as England look totally
rampant against a Swedish side that appear clueless in the face of this
imperialistic onslaught.

I have no quarrel with "England look", but I'm less sure of "Swedish
side that appear".

Thoughts? (Americans won't like either, so I'm thinking of thoughts
from people who have no problem with "England look".)

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Anyway Russia will win; it was clear from when Putin "won" the right to
stage it.

[Madrigal Gurneyhalt]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Sat, 07 Jul 2018 14:34:53 GMT, Paul Wolff

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tony Cooper
It's not often I see "waistcoat" in a headline, so I read the
article titled "Did Gareth Southgate Wear an 'It's Coming Home'
Waistcoat?"
Certainly not an allusion that registered with me, but what did
catch my eye was a quote of a Marks & Spencer executive: “England
have reached the quarter finals, and frankly, we could not be more
excited. With some saying THE waistcoat has been bringing the team
extra luck we thought how better to mark the big game than launching
National Waistcoat Day. Best of luck to the team – we hope they
bring it home!”
I understand why it's not "has", but "England have..." just sounds
wrong.
M&S, of course, has a vested interest in promoting the look. They
carry 57 styles of waistcoats.

England have (has) been counting their chickens before they hatch. Or
at least their supporters have (has).

They are suffering from Appointment in Samara syndrome.

It's as hot there as here - and they're 3 hours ahead!
Sweden don't look that impressive ATM.
This is shaping up to be a potential massacre as England look totally
rampant against a Swedish side that appear clueless in the face of this
imperialistic onslaught.

I have no quarrel with "England look", but I'm less sure of "Swedish
side that appear".
Thoughts? (Americans won't like either, so I'm thinking of thoughts
from people who have no problem with "England look".)

Yup, appears. The second you put the article in "a Swedish side" you're
committed.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Sat, 07 Jul 2018 14:34:53 GMT, Paul Wolff

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tony Cooper
It's not often I see "waistcoat" in a headline, so I read the
article titled "Did Gareth Southgate Wear an 'It's Coming Home'
Waistcoat?"
Certainly not an allusion that registered with me, but what did
catch my eye was a quote of a Marks & Spencer executive: “England
have reached the quarter finals, and frankly, we could not be more
excited. With some saying THE waistcoat has been bringing the team
extra luck we thought how better to mark the big game than launching
National Waistcoat Day. Best of luck to the team – we hope they
bring it home!”
I understand why it's not "has", but "England have..." just sounds
wrong.
M&S, of course, has a vested interest in promoting the look. They
carry 57 styles of waistcoats.

England have (has) been counting their chickens before they hatch. Or
at least their supporters have (has).

They are suffering from Appointment in Samara syndrome.

It's as hot there as here - and they're 3 hours ahead!
Sweden don't look that impressive ATM.
This is shaping up to be a potential massacre as England look totally>

Post by Paul Wolff
rampant against a Swedish side that appear clueless in the face of

this> > imperialistic onslaught.

I have no quarrel with "England look", but I'm less sure of "Swedish>
side that appear".
Thoughts? (Americans won't like either, so I'm thinking of thoughts>
from people who have no problem with "England look".)

Yup, appears. The second you put the article in "a Swedish side" you're
committed.

Ah. That explains why I didn't like it.

[Jerry Friedman]

...

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
This is shaping up to be a potential massacre as England look totally
rampant against a Swedish side that appear clueless in the face of this
imperialistic onslaught.

I have no quarrel with "England look", but I'm less sure of "Swedish
side that appear".
Thoughts? (Americans won't like either, so I'm thinking of thoughts
from people who have no problem with "England look".)

Yup, appears. The second you put the article in "a Swedish side" you're
committed.

Are you committed to anythiing after "this" in "This England are so
young, and they've played with such verve"?

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Sat, 07 Jul 2018 14:34:53 GMT, Paul Wolff

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tony Cooper
It's not often I see "waistcoat" in a headline, so I read the
article titled "Did Gareth Southgate Wear an 'It's Coming Home'
Waistcoat?"
Certainly not an allusion that registered with me, but what did
catch my eye was a quote of a Marks & Spencer executive: “England
have reached the quarter finals, and frankly, we could not be more
excited. With some saying THE waistcoat has been bringing the team
extra luck we thought how better to mark the big game than launching
National Waistcoat Day. Best of luck to the team – we hope they
bring it home!”
I understand why it's not "has", but "England have..." just sounds
wrong.
M&S, of course, has a vested interest in promoting the look. They
carry 57 styles of waistcoats.

England have (has) been counting their chickens before they hatch. Or
at least their supporters have (has).

They are suffering from Appointment in Samara syndrome.

It's as hot there as here - and they're 3 hours ahead!
Sweden don't look that impressive ATM.
This is shaping up to be a potential massacre as England look totally
rampant against a Swedish side that appear clueless in the face of this
imperialistic onslaught.

What on earth is "look totally rampant"? Aren't they _usually_ up on their
hind legs?

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
I have no quarrel with "England look", but I'm less sure of "Swedish
side that appear".
Thoughts? (Americans won't like either, so I'm thinking of thoughts
from people who have no problem with "England look".)

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
Anyway Russia will win; it was clear from when Putin "won" the right to
stage it.

So who'll win in '26? US, Canada, or Mexico?

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Sat, 07 Jul 2018 14:34:53 GMT, Paul Wolff

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tony Cooper
It's not often I see "waistcoat" in a headline, so I read the
article titled "Did Gareth Southgate Wear an 'It's Coming Home'
Waistcoat?"
Certainly not an allusion that registered with me, but what did
catch my eye was a quote of a Marks & Spencer executive: "England
have reached the quarter finals, and frankly, we could not be more
excited. With some saying THE waistcoat has been bringing the team
extra luck we thought how better to mark the big game than launching
National Waistcoat Day. Best of luck to the team - we hope they
bring it home!"
I understand why it's not "has", but "England have..." just sounds
wrong.
M&S, of course, has a vested interest in promoting the look. They
carry 57 styles of waistcoats.

England have (has) been counting their chickens before they hatch. Or
at least their supporters have (has).

They are suffering from Appointment in Samara syndrome.

It's as hot there as here - and they're 3 hours ahead!
Sweden don't look that impressive ATM.
This is shaping up to be a potential massacre as England look totally
rampant against a Swedish side that appear clueless in the face of this
imperialistic onslaught.

What on earth is "look totally rampant"? Aren't they _usually_ up on their
hind legs?

No, they are always passant,

Jan

[Madrigal Gurneyhalt]

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Sat, 07 Jul 2018 14:34:53 GMT, Paul Wolff

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tony Cooper
It's not often I see "waistcoat" in a headline, so I read the
article titled "Did Gareth Southgate Wear an 'It's Coming Home'
Waistcoat?"
Certainly not an allusion that registered with me, but what did
catch my eye was a quote of a Marks & Spencer executive: “England
have reached the quarter finals, and frankly, we could not be more
excited. With some saying THE waistcoat has been bringing the team
extra luck we thought how better to mark the big game than launching
National Waistcoat Day. Best of luck to the team – we hope they
bring it home!”
I understand why it's not "has", but "England have..." just sounds
wrong.
M&S, of course, has a vested interest in promoting the look. They
carry 57 styles of waistcoats.

England have (has) been counting their chickens before they hatch. Or
at least their supporters have (has).

They are suffering from Appointment in Samara syndrome.

It's as hot there as here - and they're 3 hours ahead!
Sweden don't look that impressive ATM.
Anyway Russia will win; it was clear from when Putin "won" the right to
stage it.

You were saying?

[Kerr-Mudd,John]

On Sat, 07 Jul 2018 21:04:52 GMT, Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Sat, 07 Jul 2018 14:34:53 GMT, Paul Wolff

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tony Cooper
It's not often I see "waistcoat" in a headline, so I read the
article titled "Did Gareth Southgate Wear an 'It's Coming Home'
Waistcoat?"
Certainly not an allusion that registered with me, but what did
catch my eye was a quote of a Marks & Spencer executive: “Eng

land

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tony Cooper
have reached the quarter finals, and frankly, we could not be more
excited. With some saying THE waistcoat has been bringing the team
extra luck we thought how better to mark the big game than launching
National Waistcoat Day. Best of luck to the team – we hope th

ey

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tony Cooper
bring it home!”
I understand why it's not "has", but "England have..." just sounds
wrong.
M&S, of course, has a vested interest in promoting the look. They
carry 57 styles of waistcoats.

England have (has) been counting their chickens before they hatch. Or
at least their supporters have (has).

They are suffering from Appointment in Samara syndrome.

It's as hot there as here - and they're 3 hours ahead!
Sweden don't look that impressive ATM.
Anyway Russia will win; it was clear from when Putin "won" the right to
stage it.

You were saying?

Well what a turnup!

[b***@aol.com]

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Sat, 07 Jul 2018 21:04:52 GMT, Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
On Sat, 07 Jul 2018 14:34:53 GMT, Paul Wolff

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tony Cooper
It's not often I see "waistcoat" in a headline, so I read the
article titled "Did Gareth Southgate Wear an 'It's Coming Home'
Waistcoat?"
Certainly not an allusion that registered with me, but what did
catch my eye was a quote of a Marks & Spencer executive: “Eng

land

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tony Cooper
have reached the quarter finals, and frankly, we could not be more
excited. With some saying THE waistcoat has been bringing the team
extra luck we thought how better to mark the big game than

launching

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tony Cooper
National Waistcoat Day. Best of luck to the team – we hope th

ey

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tony Cooper
bring it home!”
I understand why it's not "has", but "England have..." just sounds
wrong.
M&S, of course, has a vested interest in promoting the look. They
carry 57 styles of waistcoats.

England have (has) been counting their chickens before they hatch.

Or

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Steve Hayes
at least their supporters have (has).

They are suffering from Appointment in Samara syndrome.

It's as hot there as here - and they're 3 hours ahead!
Sweden don't look that impressive ATM.
Anyway Russia will win; it was clear from when Putin "won" the right

to

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
stage it.

You were saying?

Well what a turnup!

Well, what a turnip!

Post by Kerr-Mudd,John
--
Bah, and indeed, Humbug.

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sat, 7 Jul 2018 15:34:53 +0100, Paul Wolff

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tony Cooper
It's not often I see "waistcoat" in a headline, so I read the article
titled "Did Gareth Southgate Wear an 'It's Coming Home' Waistcoat?"
Certainly not an allusion that registered with me, but what did catch my
eye was a quote of a Marks & Spencer executive: “England have reached
the quarter finals, and frankly, we could not be more excited. With some
saying THE waistcoat has been bringing the team extra luck we thought
how better to mark the big game than launching National Waistcoat Day.
Best of luck to the team – we hope they bring it home!”
I understand why it's not "has", but "England have..." just sounds
wrong.
M&S, of course, has a vested interest in promoting the look. They carry
57 styles of waistcoats.

England have (has) been counting their chickens before they hatch. Or at
least their supporters have (has).

They are suffering from Appointment in Samara syndrome.

But not Disappointment in Samara.

[Paul Wolff]

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sat, 7 Jul 2018 15:34:53 +0100, Paul Wolff

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tony Cooper
It's not often I see "waistcoat" in a headline, so I read the article
titled "Did Gareth Southgate Wear an 'It's Coming Home' Waistcoat?"
Certainly not an allusion that registered with me, but what did catch my
eye was a quote of a Marks & Spencer executive: “England have reached
the quarter finals, and frankly, we could not be more excited. With some
saying THE waistcoat has been bringing the team extra luck we thought
how better to mark the big game than launching National Waistcoat Day.
Best of luck to the team – we hope they bring it home!”
I understand why it's not "has", but "England have..." just sounds
wrong.
M&S, of course, has a vested interest in promoting the look. They carry
57 styles of waistcoats.

England have (has) been counting their chickens before they hatch. Or at
least their supporters have (has).

They are suffering from Appointment in Samara syndrome.

But not Disappointment in Samara.

It was a sudden death round, but it was the Swedes who Death turned out
to have been meeting in Samara.

The town of the Appointment is "Samarra" in the literature. Does anyone
know if it's the same one? Fictionally the same, that is.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sat, 7 Jul 2018 15:34:53 +0100, Paul Wolff

...

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Steve Hayes
England have (has) been counting their chickens before they hatch.
Or at least their supporters have (has).

They are suffering from Appointment in Samara syndrome.

But not Disappointment in Samara.

It was a sudden death round, but it was the Swedes who Death turned out
to have been meeting in Samara.
The town of the Appointment is "Samarra" in the literature. Does anyone
know if it's the same one? Fictionally the same, that is.

The version of the Appointment story that I remember was about a
merchant from Baghdad, so the Samarra was the one in Iraq.

[Madhu]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Paul Wolff
The town of the Appointment is "Samarra" in the literature. Does
anyone know if it's the same one? Fictionally the same, that is.

The version of the Appointment story that I remember was about a
merchant from Baghdad, so the Samarra was the one in Iraq.

In the Talmud version the town is Luz (later Bethel), where the Angel of
death has no permission:

And the man went into the land of the Hittites, and built a
city, and called the name thereof Luz: which is the name thereof
unto this day. (Judges 1:24) [showing that the city survived
destruction and still exists.] It has been taught: That is the
Luz in which they dye the blue (Num. 25:28); that is the Luz
against which Sennacherib marched without disturbing it [By not
plundering it and exiling its inhabitants] , against which
Nebuchadnezzar marched without destroying it, and even the Angel
of Death has no permission to pass through it, but when the old
men there become tired of life [Lit. their minds become
loathsome to them] they go outside the wall and then die.
-- Sotah 46b

In the Talmud version (Sukkah 53a) the Merchant is played by Solomon and
the servant by two of his Cushite slaves

[J. J. Lodder]

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Peter Duncanson [BrE]
On Sat, 7 Jul 2018 15:34:53 +0100, Paul Wolff

Post by Paul Wolff

Post by Steve Hayes

Post by Tony Cooper
It's not often I see "waistcoat" in a headline, so I read the article
titled "Did Gareth Southgate Wear an 'It's Coming Home' Waistcoat?"
Certainly not an allusion that registered with me, but what did catch my
eye was a quote of a Marks & Spencer executive: "England have reached
the quarter finals, and frankly, we could not be more excited. With some
saying THE waistcoat has been bringing the team extra luck we thought
how better to mark the big game than launching National Waistcoat Day.
Best of luck to the team - we hope they bring it home!"
I understand why it's not "has", but "England have..." just sounds
wrong.
M&S, of course, has a vested interest in promoting the look. They carry
57 styles of waistcoats.

England have (has) been counting their chickens before they hatch. Or at
least their supporters have (has).

They are suffering from Appointment in Samara syndrome.

But not Disappointment in Samara.

It was a sudden death round, but it was the Swedes who Death turned out
to have been meeting in Samara.
The town of the Appointment is "Samarra" in the literature. Does anyone
know if it's the same one? Fictionally the same, that is.

Isfaham, in a Dutch version. (Persia, nowadays Iran)
<https://talesfromthelandingbookshelves.com/2013/06/22/samarra-or-isfahan>

Don't know if there is an original for it
or if it is just for the rhyme,

Jan

[Peter Duncanson [BrE]]

On Sat, 07 Jul 2018 00:23:40 -0400, Tony Cooper

Post by Tony Cooper
M&S, of course, has a vested interest in promoting the look. They
carry 57 styles of waistcoats.

<smile>

[the Omrud]

Post by Tony Cooper
It's not often I see "waistcoat" in a headline, so I read the article
titled "Did Gareth Southgate Wear an 'It's Coming Home' Waistcoat?"
Certainly not an allusion that registered with me, but what did catch
my eye was a quote of a Marks & Spencer executive: “England have
reached the quarter finals, and frankly, we could not be more excited.
With some saying THE waistcoat has been bringing the team extra luck
we thought how better to mark the big game than launching National
Waistcoat Day. Best of luck to the team – we hope they bring it home!”
I understand why it's not "has", but "England have..." just sounds
wrong.
M&S, of course, has a vested interest in promoting the look. They
carry 57 styles of waistcoats.

We should perhaps add that the song "Football's Coming Home" was not
written to foretell an England victory, but to celebrate the fact that
England was hosting the European Championships in 1996.

Mancunians remember the year for the bomb which devastated the city
centre on 15th June, in the middle of the Championships. Manchester
United was to be the venue for a Russia/Germany match the next day. We
happened to be on our way into the city centre and were stopped at the
roadblocks. We went to a restaurant and ate in the open air, surrounded
by bemused Russians who'd been ejected from the city, curtailing their
shopping.