Is uncle really limited to siblings of parents or their husbands?

[Dingbat]

Is uncle really limited to siblings of parents or their husbands?

So I just saw the question: How can you recognize "uncle" is father's
brother or mother's brother? (Is there any "default option"? ), and
I looked at the Wikipedia article for uncle and the definition at Google,
and it seems that the word is limited to siblings of parents or their
husbands. In Spanish, the translation, "tío," also covers cousins and
uncles of parents, so it's a recursive relationship that stretches
infinitely far up the ancestry chain. That means that when you have a
family reunion based on a common ancestor, everyone has a personal
relationship with everyone.

Is that not the case in English? What do you call the husband of the
daughter of the sister of your grandmother, or the son of the brother
of your great-grandfather?
https://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/168631/is-uncle-really-limited-to-siblings-of-parents-or-their-husbands


I say: Serbs used to have a joint family household called a zadruga; I
suspect that this must have affected their terms for relatives, like in
India's languages, including Indian English. Serbs now live in nuclear
families, so these terms might be obsolete.

In Indian English, an uncle is your parent's "own brother" (sibling)
or "cousin brother" (usually 1st cousin). Your parents' son is your "own
brother" and your grandparents' grandson is your "cousin brother". The
generic term brother (unqualified by a prefix) could mean your sibling or
your first cousin, especially in a joint family household where you're
raised with your siblings and first cousins in the same house. See this
question; it too raises the question of how you tell which parent's
relative an uncle is and the issue of a brother of the cousin kind:
https://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/129870/are-maternal-uncle-or-cousin-brother-commonly-used-in-english?rq=1

[Cheryl]

Post by Dingbat
Is uncle really limited to siblings of parents or their husbands?
So I just saw the question: How can you recognize "uncle" is father's
brother or mother's brother? (Is there any "default option"? ), and
I looked at the Wikipedia article for uncle and the definition at Google,
and it seems that the word is limited to siblings of parents or their
husbands. In Spanish, the translation, "tío," also covers cousins and
uncles of parents, so it's a recursive relationship that stretches
infinitely far up the ancestry chain. That means that when you have a
family reunion based on a common ancestor, everyone has a personal
relationship with everyone.
Is that not the case in English? What do you call the husband of the
daughter of the sister of your grandmother, or the son of the brother
of your great-grandfather?
https://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/168631/is-uncle-really-limited-to-siblings-of-parents-or-their-husbands
I say: Serbs used to have a joint family household called a zadruga; I
suspect that this must have affected their terms for relatives, like in
India's languages, including Indian English. Serbs now live in nuclear
families, so these terms might be obsolete.
In Indian English, an uncle is your parent's "own brother" (sibling)
or "cousin brother" (usually 1st cousin). Your parents' son is your "own
brother" and your grandparents' grandson is your "cousin brother". The
generic term brother (unqualified by a prefix) could mean your sibling or
your first cousin, especially in a joint family household where you're
raised with your siblings and first cousins in the same house. See this
question; it too raises the question of how you tell which parent's
https://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/129870/are-maternal-uncle-or-cousin-brother-commonly-used-in-english?rq=1

In English, an uncle is the brother or brother-in-law of a parent. Some
would even make a distinction between an uncle by blood and one by
marriage, if they don't like him very much - "Yes, he's my uncle but
he's only married to my aunt" - which implies quite clearly that the
speaker wishes he wasn't their uncle, even by marriage. It is possible
for children to address close friends of their parents as "Uncle",
although I think the current trend is to use the friend's first name,
and that usage, like the use of "Aunt" and "Uncle" for elderly
neighbours, is dying out.

The term I always hear used for other, more distant, relatives is
"cousin", without specifying the type of cousin or whether the person is
related by blood or marriage - most people get confused about
relationships like second cousin once removed, and don't bother with
working out the technical term.

For example, I and my siblings always addressed and referred to our
father's uncle as "Uncle", but his cousin as "Cousin <firstname>", even
though he wasn't our first cousin, but a more distant relative. Our own
first cousins, much closer to us in age, were simply addressed by their
first names, although they might be referred to as "my cousin" when
speaking to someone else.

[Dingbat]

Post by Cheryl

Post by Dingbat
Is uncle really limited to siblings of parents or their husbands?
Is that not the case in English? What do you call the husband of the
daughter of the sister of your grandmother, or the son of the brother
of your great-grandfather?
https://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/168631/is-uncle-really-limited-to-siblings-of-parents-or-their-husbands

In English, an uncle is the brother or brother-in-law of a parent. Some
would even make a distinction between an uncle by blood and one by
marriage, if they don't like him very much - "Yes, he's my uncle but
he's only married to my aunt"
The term I always hear used for other, more distant, relatives is
"cousin", without specifying the type of cousin or whether the person is
related by blood or marriage - most people get confused about
relationships like second cousin once removed, and don't bother with
working out the technical term.

Talking about distant relatives, look at this translation from Malayalam:

[am:Ai de ***@n de ***@n] =
Mother's brother's wife's younger sister's husband's sister's husband.

It takes only 3 words and 2 genitive postpositions in Malayalam.

You couldn't use "cousin" for that and even where you could say "cousin",
such an imprecise term as "cousin" annoys people in India.

[Peter Young]

Post by Dingbat

Post by Cheryl

Post by Dingbat
Is uncle really limited to siblings of parents or their husbands?
Is that not the case in English? What do you call the husband of the
daughter of the sister of your grandmother, or the son of the brother
of your great-grandfather?
https://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/168631/is-uncle-really-limited-to-
siblings-of-parents-or-their-husbands

In English, an uncle is the brother or brother-in-law of a parent. Some
would even make a distinction between an uncle by blood and one by
marriage, if they don't like him very much - "Yes, he's my uncle but
he's only married to my aunt"
The term I always hear used for other, more distant, relatives is
"cousin", without specifying the type of cousin or whether the person is
related by blood or marriage - most people get confused about
relationships like second cousin once removed, and don't bother with
working out the technical term.

Mother's brother's wife's younger sister's husband's sister's husband.
It takes only 3 words and 2 genitive postpositions in Malayalam.
You couldn't use "cousin" for that and even where you could say "cousin",
such an imprecise term as "cousin" annoys people in India.

Easier still in Amharic. "Wondim", literally "brother" tends to get used
for any relation other than direct family.

Peter.

[Madrigal Gurneyhalt]

Post by Dingbat

Post by Cheryl

Post by Dingbat
Is uncle really limited to siblings of parents or their husbands?
Is that not the case in English? What do you call the husband of the
daughter of the sister of your grandmother, or the son of the brother
of your great-grandfather?
https://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/168631/is-uncle-really-limited-to-siblings-of-parents-or-their-husbands

In English, an uncle is the brother or brother-in-law of a parent. Some
would even make a distinction between an uncle by blood and one by
marriage, if they don't like him very much - "Yes, he's my uncle but
he's only married to my aunt"
The term I always hear used for other, more distant, relatives is
"cousin", without specifying the type of cousin or whether the person is
related by blood or marriage - most people get confused about
relationships like second cousin once removed, and don't bother with
working out the technical term.

Mother's brother's wife's younger sister's husband's sister's husband.
It takes only 3 words and 2 genitive postpositions in Malayalam.
You couldn't use "cousin" for that and even where you could say "cousin",
such an imprecise term as "cousin" annoys people in India.

Does it? I rather doubt that 'people' in this case amounts to a mass of
any considerable size. If you wish to be that precise in English there
is nothing stopping you. I'm sure I could, if I could be arsed, identify
my 17th cousin twice removed. I just don't know why I would want
or need to.

[Cheryl]

Post by Dingbat

Post by Cheryl

Post by Dingbat
Is uncle really limited to siblings of parents or their husbands?
Is that not the case in English? What do you call the husband of the
daughter of the sister of your grandmother, or the son of the brother
of your great-grandfather?
https://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/168631/is-uncle-really-limited-to-siblings-of-parents-or-their-husbands

In English, an uncle is the brother or brother-in-law of a parent. Some
would even make a distinction between an uncle by blood and one by
marriage, if they don't like him very much - "Yes, he's my uncle but
he's only married to my aunt"
The term I always hear used for other, more distant, relatives is
"cousin", without specifying the type of cousin or whether the person is
related by blood or marriage - most people get confused about
relationships like second cousin once removed, and don't bother with
working out the technical term.

Mother's brother's wife's younger sister's husband's sister's husband.
It takes only 3 words and 2 genitive postpositions in Malayalam.
You couldn't use "cousin" for that and even where you could say "cousin",
such an imprecise term as "cousin" annoys people in India.

In English, unlike in some other languages, there is no simple way to
describe such a relationship as you describe, and no one is annoyed if
you use "cousin" in a very vague and general way. We also tend to
consider only close relatives as "family", with the others referred to
as "distant relatives" or by their names. Both my mother's brothers
married, but I couldn't tell you the names of their wives' siblings,
much less those siblings' in-laws. And I was even introduced to one or
two of them - but never felt the need for a special term for the
relationship. If they came up in conversation, they would be described
as "Jane Smith - you know, your Aunt Mary's sister - well, her husband
has just been admitted to hospital". I don't think I have ever engaged
in a conversation about my aunt-by-marriage's sister's husband's family,
much less his wife's family. Not outside chitchat with a genealogy
enthusiast, and then I do my poor best to keep all the second and third
cousins removed to various degrees straight. Fortunately, software can
work all that out.

It's not at all surprising to me that different cultures have different
family structures and people in these cultures have different ideas on
what terminology is needed and how specific it should be.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Dingbat

Post by Cheryl

Post by Dingbat
Is uncle really limited to siblings of parents or their husbands?
Is that not the case in English? What do you call the husband of the
daughter of the sister of your grandmother, or the son of the brother
of your great-grandfather?
https://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/168631/is-uncle-really-limited-to-siblings-of-parents-or-their-husbands

In English, an uncle is the brother or brother-in-law of a parent. Some
would even make a distinction between an uncle by blood and one by
marriage, if they don't like him very much - "Yes, he's my uncle but
he's only married to my aunt"
The term I always hear used for other, more distant, relatives is
"cousin", without specifying the type of cousin or whether the person is
related by blood or marriage - most people get confused about
relationships like second cousin once removed, and don't bother with
working out the technical term.

Mother's brother's wife's younger sister's husband's sister's husband.
It takes only 3 words and 2 genitive postpositions in Malayalam.

What? You can't tell whether the husband's sister was younger or older?

English-speaking cultures have different views of kinship from Malayali
culture. I think it's been that way for a long time--I don't think Old
English had any terms more precise than "aunt", "uncle", "cousin",
"nephew", "niece". (Subject to correction from people who know something.)

Post by Dingbat
You couldn't use "cousin" for that and even where you could say "cousin",
such an imprecise term as "cousin" annoys people in India.

I'm pretty sure that I've met a sister of one of my paternal aunts, and
maybe even her husband if she had one--at my step-cousins' weddings, for
example. I have no idea whether I met that husband's brother-in-law,
and I wouldn't feel much connection to him. Speaking of which, there
may still be the word "connection" for people like that who aren't
really related to you.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Dingbat

Post by Cheryl

Post by Dingbat
Is uncle really limited to siblings of parents or their husbands?
Is that not the case in English? What do you call the husband of the
daughter of the sister of your grandmother, or the son of the brother
of your great-grandfather?
https://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/168631/is-uncle-really-limited-to-siblings-of-parents-or-their-husbands

In English, an uncle is the brother or brother-in-law of a parent. Some
would even make a distinction between an uncle by blood and one by
marriage, if they don't like him very much - "Yes, he's my uncle but
he's only married to my aunt"
The term I always hear used for other, more distant, relatives is
"cousin", without specifying the type of cousin or whether the person is
related by blood or marriage - most people get confused about
relationships like second cousin once removed, and don't bother with
working out the technical term.

Mother's brother's wife's younger sister's husband's sister's husband.

Spanish has an incredible number of distinct words for different
relations: abuelo = grandfather, bisabuelo = great-grandfather,
tatarabuelo = great-great-grandfather, yerno = son-in-law, suegro =
father-in-law, nieto = grandson, bisnieto = great-grandson, tataranieto
= great-great-grandson (though I suspect only genealogists need that
one). All have feminine forms as well, though those are easier, as they
just have -a instead of -o. All are in everyday use.

Post by Dingbat
It takes only 3 words and 2 genitive postpositions in Malayalam.
You couldn't use "cousin" for that and even where you could say "cousin",
such an imprecise term as "cousin" annoys people in India.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Dingbat

Post by Cheryl

Post by Dingbat
Is uncle really limited to siblings of parents or their husbands?
Is that not the case in English? What do you call the husband of the
daughter of the sister of your grandmother, or the son of the brother
of your great-grandfather?
https://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/168631/is-uncle-really-limited-to-siblings-of-parents-or-their-husbands

In English, an uncle is the brother or brother-in-law of a parent. Some
would even make a distinction between an uncle by blood and one by
marriage, if they don't like him very much - "Yes, he's my uncle but
he's only married to my aunt"
The term I always hear used for other, more distant, relatives is
"cousin", without specifying the type of cousin or whether the person is
related by blood or marriage - most people get confused about
relationships like second cousin once removed, and don't bother with
working out the technical term.

Mother's brother's wife's younger sister's husband's sister's husband.

Spanish has an incredible number of distinct words for different
relations: abuelo = grandfather, bisabuelo = great-grandfather,
tatarabuelo = great-great-grandfather, yerno = son-in-law, suegro =
father-in-law, nieto = grandson, bisnieto = great-grandson, tataranieto
= great-great-grandson (though I suspect only genealogists need that
one).

Around here, most obituaries for people over about 85 mention
great-great-grandchildren (and most of them are for Spanish speakers).

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
All have feminine forms as well, though those are easier, as they
just have -a instead of -o. All are in everyday use.

Also cuñado = brother-in-law, and the highly useful concuñado = spouse's
sibling's husband, and consuegro = child's father-in-law, both recurring
a.u.e. topics.

As Ranjit's example from Malayalam showed, that's a pretty limited set
compared to some languages.

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Dingbat
It takes only 3 words and 2 genitive postpositions in Malayalam.

..

[Quinn C]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Dingbat

Post by Cheryl

Post by Dingbat
Is uncle really limited to siblings of parents or their husbands?
Is that not the case in English? What do you call the husband of the
daughter of the sister of your grandmother, or the son of the brother
of your great-grandfather?
https://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/168631/is-uncle-really-limited-to-siblings-of-parents-or-their-husbands

In English, an uncle is the brother or brother-in-law of a parent. Some
would even make a distinction between an uncle by blood and one by
marriage, if they don't like him very much - "Yes, he's my uncle but
he's only married to my aunt"
The term I always hear used for other, more distant, relatives is
"cousin", without specifying the type of cousin or whether the person is
related by blood or marriage - most people get confused about
relationships like second cousin once removed, and don't bother with
working out the technical term.

Mother's brother's wife's younger sister's husband's sister's husband.

Spanish has an incredible number of distinct words for different
relations: abuelo = grandfather, bisabuelo = great-grandfather,
tatarabuelo = great-great-grandfather, yerno = son-in-law, suegro =
father-in-law, nieto = grandson, bisnieto = great-grandson, tataranieto
= great-great-grandson (though I suspect only genealogists need that
one).

Around here, most obituaries for people over about 85 mention
great-great-grandchildren (and most of them are for Spanish speakers).

Most? Are you sure? That would require people start getting children at
around 20, consistently. Is that still common over there?

My mother became a grandmother at 44, but then it took about 30 years
for the next step, so I think her chances are slim to see one more
generation.

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
All have feminine forms as well, though those are easier, as they
just have -a instead of -o. All are in everyday use.

Also cuñado = brother-in-law, and the highly useful concuñado = spouse's
sibling's husband,

German has a word for that (Schwippschwager)*, but many people don't
know how to use it.

* It can also mean one's sibling's spouse's brother, similar to how
brother-in-law covers two constellations.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Quinn C

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Spanish has an incredible number of distinct words for different

well ... recurring prefixes.

Post by Quinn C

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
relations: abuelo = grandfather, bisabuelo = great-grandfather,
tatarabuelo = great-great-grandfather, yerno = son-in-law, suegro =
father-in-law, nieto = grandson, bisnieto = great-grandson, tataranieto
= great-great-grandson (though I suspect only genealogists need that
one).

Around here, most obituaries for people over about 85 mention
great-great-grandchildren (and most of them are for Spanish speakers).

Most? Are you sure? That would require people start getting children at
around 20, consistently. Is that still common over there?

That seems rather elderly. If they haven't done so while still in high
school, Middle American girls would marry soon after graduation, and there
is a, probably racist, assumption that Hispanic, scil. Mexican, girls would
do so even earlier.

Around Here, news stories about troubled children often mention that they
were raised by their grandmothers.

[Quinn C]

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Quinn C

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Spanish has an incredible number of distinct words for different

well ... recurring prefixes.

Post by Quinn C

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
relations: abuelo = grandfather, bisabuelo = great-grandfather,
tatarabuelo = great-great-grandfather, yerno = son-in-law, suegro =
father-in-law, nieto = grandson, bisnieto = great-grandson, tataranieto
= great-great-grandson (though I suspect only genealogists need that
one).

Around here, most obituaries for people over about 85 mention
great-great-grandchildren (and most of them are for Spanish speakers).

Most? Are you sure? That would require people start getting children at
around 20, consistently. Is that still common over there?

That seems rather elderly. If they haven't done so while still in high
school, Middle American girls would marry soon after graduation, and there
is a, probably racist, assumption that Hispanic, scil. Mexican, girls would
do so even earlier.
Around Here, news stories about troubled children often mention that they
were raised by their grandmothers.

I guess the last one is more a hint at children born to young single
mothers. We know this is much more common in the US than in Europe due
to a lack of sex ed and access to contraception and abortion.

Anyway, stereotypes don't care much about averages, much less real
data. The average age of women at their first marriage in the US is 27,
in Mexico 26 (and these numbers are a few years old.) In most Western
developed countries, it's 30 or more - even in Japan, where unmarried
mothers are still quite the exception, it's 29.

For the age of the mother at birth of first child, I find 26 for the US
and 21 for Mexico (and 30 in Japan, in case you wondered about my
statement above.) So, many young single mothers in Mexico.

The averages can be lower for "Middle America", but 5 years or more is
a stretch. Plus, about half of all couples will have a boy as their
first child, and some of these even as their second, which normally
pushes up the wait for the next generation by a few years.

To make that clear - I didn't question that some people have children
at 20 - my sister did! I questioned that that happens regularly four
times in sequence in the same family.

So, "elderly", no, definitely not. Spanning four generations in 85
years in the same family is not easy to maintain. As far as I know, it
hasn't been like that in Europe for ages - men who became fathers at 20
were considered young even hundreds of years ago, because men were
supposed to achieve a degree of (at least foreseeable) material
independence first, so that number would only have been realilstic with
a sequence of girl births.

IIRC what I learned, although it's a bit of an interpretation, Tacitus
noticed with some surprise that teenage pregnancies were rare among the
Germanic tribes 2000 years ago.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Quinn C

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Quinn C

Post by Jerry Friedman
Around here, most obituaries for people over about 85 mention
great-great-grandchildren (and most of them are for Spanish speakers).

Most? Are you sure? That would require people start getting children at
around 20, consistently. Is that still common over there?

That seems rather elderly. If they haven't done so while still in high
school, Middle American girls would marry soon after graduation, and there
is a, probably racist, assumption that Hispanic, scil. Mexican, girls would
do so even earlier.
Around Here, news stories about troubled children often mention that they
were raised by their grandmothers.

I guess the last one is more a hint at children born to young single
mothers. We know this is much more common in the US than in Europe due
to a lack of sex ed and access to contraception and abortion.
Anyway, stereotypes don't care much about averages, much less real
data. The average age of women at their first marriage in the US is 27,
in Mexico 26 (and these numbers are a few years old.) In most Western
developed countries, it's 30 or more - even in Japan, where unmarried
mothers are still quite the exception, it's 29.

Age at marriage has little to do with age at birth of first child --

Post by Quinn C
For the age of the mother at birth of first child, I find 26 for the US
and 21 for Mexico (and 30 in Japan, in case you wondered about my
statement above.) So, many young single mothers in Mexico.

-- but "unmarried mother" is far from likely to equate to "single mother"
any more. You should also fairly easily be able to find statistics on
stable cohabiting relationships, happily raising children as a "nuclear
family," just without the piece of paper. Some couples refused to marry
as long as "marriage equality" didn't exist. (How many of them are now
looking for some other excuse?)

Post by Quinn C
The averages can be lower for "Middle America", but 5 years or more is
a stretch. Plus, about half of all couples will have a boy as their
first child, and some of these even as their second, which normally
pushes up the wait for the next generation by a few years.
To make that clear - I didn't question that some people have children
at 20 - my sister did! I questioned that that happens regularly four
times in sequence in the same family.

15-16 is the figure for those "troubled" children raised by grandmothers
in their early 30s who tried to keep their daughter from making the same
mistake.

Post by Quinn C
So, "elderly", no, definitely not. Spanning four generations in 85
years in the same family is not easy to maintain. As far as I know, it
hasn't been like that in Europe for ages - men who became fathers at 20
were considered young even hundreds of years ago, because men were
supposed to achieve a degree of (at least foreseeable) material
independence first, so that number would only have been realilstic with
a sequence of girl births.

Which is why I have often pointed out here that the only constraint on the
speed of language change is that grandparents and grandchildren need to be
able to communicate with full efficiency. But if you were able to converse
with your grandparents, and you are able to converse with your grandchildren,
that doesn't necessarily mean that those two sets of people would be able
to do so without misunderstandings.

Post by Quinn C
IIRC what I learned, although it's a bit of an interpretation, Tacitus
noticed with some surprise that teenage pregnancies were rare among the
Germanic tribes 2000 years ago.

The implication being that teenage pregnancy was the norm in his society.
But that would include owners using slave women for sex, with any offspring
being quite incidental.

[Cheryl]

Post by Quinn C

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Quinn C

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Spanish has an incredible number of distinct words for different

well ... recurring prefixes.

Post by Quinn C

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
relations: abuelo = grandfather, bisabuelo = great-grandfather,
tatarabuelo = great-great-grandfather, yerno = son-in-law, suegro =
father-in-law, nieto = grandson, bisnieto = great-grandson, tataranieto
= great-great-grandson (though I suspect only genealogists need that
one).

Around here, most obituaries for people over about 85 mention
great-great-grandchildren (and most of them are for Spanish speakers).

Most? Are you sure? That would require people start getting children at
around 20, consistently. Is that still common over there?

That seems rather elderly. If they haven't done so while still in high
school, Middle American girls would marry soon after graduation, and there
is a, probably racist, assumption that Hispanic, scil. Mexican, girls would
do so even earlier.
Around Here, news stories about troubled children often mention that they
were raised by their grandmothers.

I guess the last one is more a hint at children born to young single
mothers. We know this is much more common in the US than in Europe due
to a lack of sex ed and access to contraception and abortion.
Anyway, stereotypes don't care much about averages, much less real
data. The average age of women at their first marriage in the US is 27,
in Mexico 26 (and these numbers are a few years old.) In most Western
developed countries, it's 30 or more - even in Japan, where unmarried
mothers are still quite the exception, it's 29.
For the age of the mother at birth of first child, I find 26 for the US
and 21 for Mexico (and 30 in Japan, in case you wondered about my
statement above.) So, many young single mothers in Mexico.
The averages can be lower for "Middle America", but 5 years or more is
a stretch. Plus, about half of all couples will have a boy as their
first child, and some of these even as their second, which normally
pushes up the wait for the next generation by a few years.
To make that clear - I didn't question that some people have children
at 20 - my sister did! I questioned that that happens regularly four
times in sequence in the same family.
So, "elderly", no, definitely not. Spanning four generations in 85
years in the same family is not easy to maintain. As far as I know, it
hasn't been like that in Europe for ages - men who became fathers at 20
were considered young even hundreds of years ago, because men were
supposed to achieve a degree of (at least foreseeable) material
independence first, so that number would only have been realilstic with
a sequence of girl births.
IIRC what I learned, although it's a bit of an interpretation, Tacitus
noticed with some surprise that teenage pregnancies were rare among the
Germanic tribes 2000 years ago.

There's a photo somewhere of four generations of my family - I'd expect
it to be easier to find that situation nowadays with more people living
longer.

Not counting me, the youngest and childless (I think I was in my mid to
late teens when the photo was taken), the parents' ages at time of birth
of the next in line were (F/M) 23/31, 20/28 and 23/27. That's very
typical of ages at time of marriage and birth of first child in this
part of the world. Having grandparents raising grandchildren was a very
common solution to both illegitimate children the family did not want to
have adopted - or children whose parent(s) had died. Widowed mothers
often couldn't afford to keep the family home going back in the day, and
widowed fathers couldn't afford to both keep the home going and hire a
caregiver, so either re-marriage or returning to or sending the children
to the grandparents was a solution. There are of course situations in
which several generations of women each in turn have children very
young, but I think that's less common than suspected - although of
course situations in different countries and cultures may vary.

[Quinn C]

Post by Cheryl
There's a photo somewhere of four generations of my family - I'd expect
it to be easier to find that situation nowadays with more people living
longer.
Not counting me, the youngest and childless (I think I was in my mid to
late teens when the photo was taken), the parents' ages at time of birth
of the next in line were (F/M) 23/31, 20/28 and 23/27. That's very
typical of ages at time of marriage and birth of first child in this
part of the world.

Yes, and it suggests roughly 25 years per generation rather than 20,
which was my point.

That's not to criticize your contribution, just to link it to the
earlier claim. So you met at least two great-grandparents. I only ever
met one, and it's according to expectations that that was my mother's
mother's mother - probably the youngest of the bunch.

[Madrigal Gurneyhalt]

Post by Quinn C

Post by Cheryl
There's a photo somewhere of four generations of my family - I'd expect
it to be easier to find that situation nowadays with more people living
longer.
Not counting me, the youngest and childless (I think I was in my mid to
late teens when the photo was taken), the parents' ages at time of birth
of the next in line were (F/M) 23/31, 20/28 and 23/27. That's very
typical of ages at time of marriage and birth of first child in this
part of the world.

Yes, and it suggests roughly 25 years per generation rather than 20,
which was my point.
That's not to criticize your contribution, just to link it to the
earlier claim. So you met at least two great-grandparents. I only ever
met one, and it's according to expectations that that was my mother's
mother's mother - probably the youngest of the bunch.

The most generations alive in a single family has been seven. The youngest
great-great-great-great-grandparent being Augusta Bunge (USA) aged 109
years 97 days, followed by her daughter aged 89, her grand-daughter aged
70, her great-grand-daughter aged 52, her great-great grand-daughter aged
33 and her great-great-great grand-daughter aged 15 on the birth of her
great-great-great-great grandson on 21 January 1989.

Guinness

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Madrigal Gurneyhalt

Post by Quinn C

Post by Cheryl
There's a photo somewhere of four generations of my family - I'd expect
it to be easier to find that situation nowadays with more people living
longer.
Not counting me, the youngest and childless (I think I was in my mid to
late teens when the photo was taken), the parents' ages at time of birth
of the next in line were (F/M) 23/31, 20/28 and 23/27. That's very
typical of ages at time of marriage and birth of first child in this
part of the world.

Yes, and it suggests roughly 25 years per generation rather than 20,
which was my point.
That's not to criticize your contribution, just to link it to the
earlier claim. So you met at least two great-grandparents. I only ever
met one, and it's according to expectations that that was my mother's
mother's mother - probably the youngest of the bunch.

The most generations alive in a single family has been seven. The youngest
great-great-great-great-grandparent being Augusta Bunge (USA) aged 109
years 97 days, followed by her daughter aged 89, her grand-daughter aged
70, her great-grand-daughter aged 52, her great-great grand-daughter aged
33 and her great-great-great grand-daughter aged 15 on the birth of her
great-great-great-great grandson on 21 January 1989.

Augusta died almost 10 months later, so communication between them was moot. But how well did she and the baby's mother understand each other?

The stated ages of birth-giving are 20, 19, 18, 19, 18, and 15 (birthdates
not known). That last was something of a sacrifice just to get into the
Guinness Book.

[Cheryl]

Post by Quinn C

Post by Cheryl
There's a photo somewhere of four generations of my family - I'd expect
it to be easier to find that situation nowadays with more people living
longer.
Not counting me, the youngest and childless (I think I was in my mid to
late teens when the photo was taken), the parents' ages at time of birth
of the next in line were (F/M) 23/31, 20/28 and 23/27. That's very
typical of ages at time of marriage and birth of first child in this
part of the world.

Yes, and it suggests roughly 25 years per generation rather than 20,
which was my point.
That's not to criticize your contribution, just to link it to the
earlier claim. So you met at least two great-grandparents. I only ever
met one, and it's according to expectations that that was my mother's
mother's mother - probably the youngest of the bunch.

That was a typical, but not a universal, interval of births where I grew
up. Much younger age-at-first-birth is found elsewhere, both in
different cultures and in different social groups, and I suspect - well,
know - that there are some remarkably (by my standards) young
grandparents, and probably great-grandparents around now, in spite of
the increased access to birth control and abortion. Very young mothers
sometimes desperately want their children - someone to love them and for
them to love - and that behaviour can carry across generations. They
also do not experience either the social condemnation of illegitimate
pregnancies or the financial support that makes up for their inability
to both earn a living and pay the expenses of caring for the child.
Those are factors that probably contributed to the later age of first
childbirth in my ancestors. Some of my ancestors. Where there was a
pregnancy too early for marriage (or by a man or boy who wasn't offering
marriage), adoption outside the family was the practice, not, as in some
other families, raising the child as a sibling of the mother.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Quinn C

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Quinn C

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Spanish has an incredible number of distinct words for different

well ... recurring prefixes.

Post by Quinn C

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
relations: abuelo = grandfather, bisabuelo = great-grandfather,
tatarabuelo = great-great-grandfather, yerno = son-in-law, suegro =
father-in-law, nieto = grandson, bisnieto = great-grandson, tataranieto
= great-great-grandson (though I suspect only genealogists need that
one).

Around here, most obituaries for people over about 85 mention
great-great-grandchildren (and most of them are for Spanish speakers).

Most? Are you sure? That would require people start getting children at
around 20, consistently. Is that still common over there?

That seems rather elderly. If they haven't done so while still in high
school, Middle American girls would marry soon after graduation, and there
is a, probably racist, assumption that Hispanic, scil. Mexican, girls would
do so even earlier.
Around Here, news stories about troubled children often mention that they
were raised by their grandmothers.

...

A student told me she was raised by her great-grandmother.

Post by Quinn C
So, "elderly", no, definitely not. Spanning four generations in 85
years in the same family is not easy to maintain. As far as I know, it
hasn't been like that in Europe for ages - men who became fathers at 20
were considered young even hundreds of years ago, because men were
supposed to achieve a degree of (at least foreseeable) material
independence first, so that number would only have been realilstic with
a sequence of girl births.

I'm not going to give names because I'm not sure any relatives who
search for them want to see those names in a little study like this, but
here are the latest obituaries in the local paper. I gave up after 11,
but I hope it gives you a picture.

75-year-old woman, 5 great-grandchildren. She did have a step-daughter,
who might have been older than her (the deceased's) biological children.
I don't know whether the paper would count descendants through a
step-child among grandchildren and great-grandchildren.

73-year-old man, 5 great-grandchildren!

83-year-old man, 1 great-grandchild

95-year-old woman, no survivors listed

87-year-old woman, 18 great-grandchildren

27-year-old woman, no descendants listed

88-year-old man, 11 great-grandchildren

89-year-old man, no descendants listed

73-year-old man, no great-grandchildren, but one of his grandchildren is
engaged

78-year-old woman, 4 great-grandchildren

87-year-old man, 3 great-grandchildren

http://www.riograndesun.com/obituaries/

For anyone who looks at that, you can get to the full obits by clicking
on the pictures, not the names or the beginnings of the texts.

This is not Middle America as I understand the term, but it used to be
rural, and farmers have babies early. Nowadays a lot of young people
here are pretty reckless.

For comparison, my parents aren't too far from 90 one way and the other,
and their only great-grandchild is a toddler.

[Jerry Friedman]

...

Post by Quinn C

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Spanish has an incredible number of distinct words for different
relations: abuelo = grandfather, bisabuelo = great-grandfather,
tatarabuelo = great-great-grandfather, yerno = son-in-law, suegro =
father-in-law, nieto = grandson, bisnieto = great-grandson, tataranieto
= great-great-grandson (though I suspect only genealogists need that
one).

Around here, most obituaries for people over about 85 mention
great-great-grandchildren (and most of them are for Spanish speakers).

Most? Are you sure? That would require people start getting children at
around 20, consistently. Is that still common over there?

I'm not going to give names because I'm not sure any relatives who
search for them want to see those names in a little study like this, but
here are the latest obituaries in the local paper. I gave up after 11,
but I hope it gives you a picture.

75-year-old woman, 5 great-grandchildren. She did have a step-daughter,
who might have been older than her (the deceased's) biological children.
I don't know whether the paper would count the descendants of a
step-child among grandchildren and great-grandchildren.

73-year-old man, 5 great-grandchildren! As the number of grandchildren
is the same, I could almost suspect an error.

83-year-old man, 1 great-grandchild

95-year-old woman, no survivors listed

87-year-old woman, 18 great-grandchildren

27-year-old woman, no descendants listed

88-year-old man, 11 great-grandchildren

89-year-old man, no descendants listed

73-year-old man, no great-grandchildren, but one of his grandchildren is
engaged

78-year-old woman, 4 great-grandchildren

87-year-old man, 3 great-grandchildren

http://www.riograndesun.com/obituaries/

For anyone who looks at that, you can get to the full obits by clicking
on the pictures, not the names or the beginnings of the texts.

This is not Middle America as I understand the term, but it used to be
rural, and farmers have babies early. Nowadays a lot of young people
here are pretty reckless, or think that having children early is normal.

Post by Quinn C
My mother became a grandmother at 44, but then it took about 30 years
for the next step, so I think her chances are slim to see one more
generation.

For comparison, my parents aren't too far from 90 one way and the other,
and their only great-grandchild is a toddler. But they started pretty
late even for their background.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Jerry Friedman
...

Post by Quinn C

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Spanish has an incredible number of distinct words for different
relations: abuelo = grandfather, bisabuelo = great-grandfather,
tatarabuelo = great-great-grandfather, yerno = son-in-law, suegro =
father-in-law, nieto = grandson, bisnieto = great-grandson, tataranieto
= great-great-grandson (though I suspect only genealogists need that
one).

Around here, most obituaries for people over about 85 mention
great-great-grandchildren (and most of them are for Spanish speakers).

Most? Are you sure? That would require people start getting children at
around 20, consistently. Is that still common over there?

I'm not going to give names because I'm not sure any relatives who
search for them want to see those names in a little study like this, but
here are the latest obituaries in the local paper.  I gave up after 11,
but I hope it gives you a picture.
75-year-old woman, 5 great-grandchildren.

...

Never mind, I lost track of what we were talking about. You have to go
a few people farther down to find someone with a great-great-grandchild,
and she was 97. So what I said above was wrong.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Jerry Friedman
Never mind, I lost track of what we were talking about. You have to go
a few people farther down to find someone with a great-great-grandchild,
and she was 97. So what I said above was wrong.

My three local cousins-once-removed are quite old enough to have given
their grandmother -- who died this winter at 100 -- great-grandchildren,
but not one of them has settled down, let alone married. They have two
cousins (my cousins once removed from my youngest cousin) who have only
recently become married. (One of them brought her new husband to the 100th-
birthday party in October, from North Carolina -- the ones who went to the
wedding stayed for the eclipse -- her brother is somewhere in Ohio and
didn't come for the party. I don't suppose he'll come to Arlington for the
interment, either, though AFAIK that hasn't been scheduled yet.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Jerry Friedman

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Dingbat

Post by Cheryl

Post by Dingbat
Is uncle really limited to siblings of parents or their husbands?
Is that not the case in English? What do you call the husband of the
daughter of the sister of your grandmother, or the son of the brother
of your great-grandfather?
https://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/168631/is-uncle-really-limited-to-siblings-of-parents-or-their-husbands

In English, an uncle is the brother or brother-in-law of a parent. Some
would even make a distinction between an uncle by blood and one by
marriage, if they don't like him very much - "Yes, he's my uncle but
he's only married to my aunt"
The term I always hear used for other, more distant, relatives is
"cousin", without specifying the type of cousin or whether the person is
related by blood or marriage - most people get confused about
relationships like second cousin once removed, and don't bother with
working out the technical term.

Mother's brother's wife's younger sister's husband's sister's husband.

Spanish has an incredible number of distinct words for different
relations: abuelo = grandfather, bisabuelo = great-grandfather,
tatarabuelo = great-great-grandfather, yerno = son-in-law, suegro =
father-in-law, nieto = grandson, bisnieto = great-grandson, tataranieto
= great-great-grandson (though I suspect only genealogists need that
one).

Around here, most obituaries for people over about 85 mention
great-great-grandchildren (and most of them are for Spanish speakers).

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
All have feminine forms as well, though those are easier, as they just
have -a instead of -o. All are in everyday use.

Also cuñado = brother-in-law, and the highly useful concuñado =
spouse's sibling's husband, and consuegro = child's father-in-law, both
recurring a.u.e. topics.

I forgot about them, but they're ones I miss a lot in English and
French. We see our French consuegros a lot, and we really need a
convenient word. I don't have any concuñados or concuñadas.

Post by Jerry Friedman
As Ranjit's example from Malayalam showed, that's a pretty limited set
compared to some languages.

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Dingbat
It takes only 3 words and 2 genitive postpositions in Malayalam.

..

[Quinn C]

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Jerry Friedman
Also cuñado = brother-in-law, and the highly useful concuñado =
spouse's sibling's husband, and consuegro = child's father-in-law, both
recurring a.u.e. topics.

I forgot about them, but they're ones I miss a lot in English and
French. We see our French consuegros a lot, and we really need a
convenient word. I don't have any concuñados or concuñadas.

That's a bit of a surprise. Even though I'm not much into family
gatherings, I know both siblings of my sister's husband and I'm sure I
would know the siblings of my brother's wife if she had any. I've even
met some of my step-sister's husband's 11 (I think) siblings and some
of their partners, if only once or twice.

That's because they were all around nearby when I was still living at
home, but later I've also met, over time, all of my wife's five
siblings, the husband of her sister (even once or twice without any of
the two linking elements present), the - at the time future - wife of
her brother, and then the fourth wife of another of her brothers when
we visited their home.

On the other hand, I've met my parents-in-law only once (for a few
days), not ever before marrying.

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Quinn C

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Jerry Friedman
Also cuñado = brother-in-law, and the highly useful concuñado =
spouse's sibling's husband, and consuegro = child's father-in-law, both
recurring a.u.e. topics.

I forgot about them, but they're ones I miss a lot in English and
French. We see our French consuegros a lot, and we really need a
convenient word. I don't have any concuñados or concuñadas.

That's a bit of a surprise.

Not if you take Jerry's definition literally. My spouse has no
siblings, so I have no spouse's sibling's husbands (or wives). However,
now I think about it I think his definition was too precise, and if it
allows sibling's spouse's siblings then I do have some concuñadas (only
two, though, I think).

Post by Quinn C
Even though I'm not much into family
gatherings, I know both siblings of my sister's husband and I'm sure I
would know the siblings of my brother's wife if she had any. I've even
met some of my step-sister's husband's 11 (I think) siblings and some
of their partners, if only once or twice.
That's because they were all around nearby when I was still living at
home, but later I've also met, over time, all of my wife's five
siblings, the husband of her sister (even once or twice without any of
the two linking elements present), the - at the time future - wife of
her brother, and then the fourth wife of another of her brothers when
we visited their home.
On the other hand, I've met my parents-in-law only once (for a few
days), not ever before marrying.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Quinn C

Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden

Post by Jerry Friedman
Also cuñado = brother-in-law, and the highly useful concuñado =
spouse's sibling's husband, and consuegro = child's father-in-law, both
recurring a.u.e. topics.

I forgot about them, but they're ones I miss a lot in English and
French. We see our French consuegros a lot, and we really need a
convenient word. I don't have any concuñados or concuñadas.

That's a bit of a surprise.

Not if you take Jerry's definition literally. My spouse has no siblings,
so I have no spouse's sibling's husbands (or wives). However, now I
think about it I think his definition was too precise, and if it allows
sibling's spouse's siblings then I do have some concuñadas (only two,
though, I think).

...

Yes, the DRAE gives both definitions, so it's like "Schwippschwager".

Incidentally, in some countries there's an abbreviated version, concuño,
which I think I've heard around here.

[Peter T. Daniels]

Post by Cheryl

Post by Dingbat
Is uncle really limited to siblings of parents or their husbands?
So I just saw the question: How can you recognize "uncle" is father's
brother or mother's brother? (Is there any "default option"? ), and
I looked at the Wikipedia article for uncle and the definition at Google,
and it seems that the word is limited to siblings of parents or their
husbands. In Spanish, the translation, "tío," also covers cousins and
uncles of parents, so it's a recursive relationship that stretches
infinitely far up the ancestry chain. That means that when you have a
family reunion based on a common ancestor, everyone has a personal
relationship with everyone.
Is that not the case in English? What do you call the husband of the
daughter of the sister of your grandmother, or the son of the brother
of your great-grandfather?
https://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/168631/is-uncle-really-limited-to-siblings-of-parents-or-their-husbands
I say: Serbs used to have a joint family household called a zadruga; I
suspect that this must have affected their terms for relatives, like in
India's languages, including Indian English. Serbs now live in nuclear
families, so these terms might be obsolete.
In Indian English, an uncle is your parent's "own brother" (sibling)
or "cousin brother" (usually 1st cousin). Your parents' son is your "own
brother" and your grandparents' grandson is your "cousin brother". The
generic term brother (unqualified by a prefix) could mean your sibling or
your first cousin, especially in a joint family household where you're
raised with your siblings and first cousins in the same house. See this
question; it too raises the question of how you tell which parent's
https://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/129870/are-maternal-uncle-or-cousin-brother-commonly-used-in-english?rq=1

In English, an uncle is the brother or brother-in-law of a parent. Some
would even make a distinction between an uncle by blood and one by
marriage, if they don't like him very much - "Yes, he's my uncle but
he's only married to my aunt" - which implies quite clearly that the
speaker wishes he wasn't their uncle, even by marriage. It is possible
for children to address close friends of their parents as "Uncle",
although I think the current trend is to use the friend's first name,
and that usage, like the use of "Aunt" and "Uncle" for elderly
neighbours, is dying out.

But "Uncle" is also used in that last sense more generally; we have the
word "avuncular," which isn't likely to be used of an actual uncle. Note
also "Uncle Miltie," the nickname of the first huge US TV star, the comic
Milton Berle.

Post by Cheryl
The term I always hear used for other, more distant, relatives is
"cousin", without specifying the type of cousin or whether the person is
related by blood or marriage - most people get confused about
relationships like second cousin once removed, and don't bother with
working out the technical term.

A relative(?) sent me a postcard from Antarctica. (He probably flew the
plane on which the mailbag was carried from the base at McMurdo Sound.)
He is the son of my cousin's wife's previous marriage. He's thus my
cousin's stepson; if he were his son, he would be my cousin once removed;
so he is probably my step-cousin once removed -- but I have no step-cousins. Perhaps his wife is my step-cousin-once-removed-in-law, but their
four young sons are my step-cousins twice removed. Perhaps. (He's a
meteorologist, a career member of the New York Air National Guard. For
several years after transferring from Alaska he was stationed in Buffalo,
and now he's stationed at Albany, at the Air National Guard base that is
the principal contact for most US Antarctic missions.)

Post by Cheryl
For example, I and my siblings always addressed and referred to our
father's uncle as "Uncle", but his cousin as "Cousin <firstname>", even
though he wasn't our first cousin, but a more distant relative. Our own
first cousins, much closer to us in age, were simply addressed by their
first names, although they might be referred to as "my cousin" when
speaking to someone else.

[Jimmy Wilkinson Knife]

On Fri, 08 Jun 2018 13:22:22 +0100, Peter T. Daniels =

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat
Is uncle really limited to siblings of parents or their husbands?
So I just saw the question: How can you recognize "uncle" is father=

's

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat
brother or mother's brother? (Is there any "default option"? ), a=

nd

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat
I looked at the Wikipedia article for uncle and the definition at=

=

Post by Dingbat
Google,

Post by Dingbat
and it seems that the word is limited to siblings of parents or =

their

Post by Dingbat
husbands. In Spanish, the translation, "t=EDo," also covers cousi=

ns =

Post by Dingbat
and

Post by Dingbat
uncles of parents, so it's a recursive relationship that stretche=

s

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat
infinitely far up the ancestry chain. That means that when you ha=

ve =

Post by Dingbat
a

Post by Dingbat
family reunion based on a common ancestor, everyone has a persona=

l

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat
relationship with everyone.
Is that not the case in English? What do you call the husband of th=

e

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat
daughter of the sister of your grandmother, or the son of the =

brother

Post by Dingbat
of your great-grandfather?
=

https://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/168631/is-uncle-really-limite=

d-to-siblings-of-parents-or-their-husbands

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat
I say: Serbs used to have a joint family household called a zadruga=

; I

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat
suspect that this must have affected their terms for relatives, =

like in

Post by Dingbat
India's languages, including Indian English. Serbs now live in =

nuclear

Post by Dingbat
families, so these terms might be obsolete.
In Indian English, an uncle is your parent's "own brother" (sibling=

)

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat
or "cousin brother" (usually 1st cousin). Your parents' son is yo=

ur =

Post by Dingbat
"own

Post by Dingbat
brother" and your grandparents' grandson is your "cousin brother"=

. =

Post by Dingbat
The

Post by Dingbat
generic term brother (unqualified by a prefix) could mean your =

sibling or

Post by Dingbat
your first cousin, especially in a joint family household where =

you're

Post by Dingbat
raised with your siblings and first cousins in the same house. Se=

e =

Post by Dingbat
this

Post by Dingbat
question; it too raises the question of how you tell which parent=

's

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat
relative an uncle is and the issue of a brother of the cousin kin=
=

https://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/129870/are-maternal-uncle-or-=

cousin-brother-commonly-used-in-english?rq=3D1

Post by Dingbat
In English, an uncle is the brother or brother-in-law of a parent. So=

me

Post by Dingbat
would even make a distinction between an uncle by blood and one by
marriage, if they don't like him very much - "Yes, he's my uncle but
he's only married to my aunt" - which implies quite clearly that the
speaker wishes he wasn't their uncle, even by marriage. It is possibl=

e

Post by Dingbat
for children to address close friends of their parents as "Uncle",
although I think the current trend is to use the friend's first name,=
and that usage, like the use of "Aunt" and "Uncle" for elderly
neighbours, is dying out.

But "Uncle" is also used in that last sense more generally; we have th=

e

word "avuncular," which isn't likely to be used of an actual uncle. No=

te

also "Uncle Miltie," the nickname of the first huge US TV star, the co=

mic

Milton Berle.

Post by Dingbat
The term I always hear used for other, more distant, relatives is
"cousin", without specifying the type of cousin or whether the person=

is

Post by Dingbat
related by blood or marriage - most people get confused about
relationships like second cousin once removed, and don't bother with
working out the technical term.

A relative(?) sent me a postcard from Antarctica. (He probably flew th=

e

plane on which the mailbag was carried from the base at McMurdo Sound.=

)

He is the son of my cousin's wife's previous marriage. He's thus my
cousin's stepson; if he were his son, he would be my cousin once remov=

ed;

so he is probably my step-cousin once removed -- but I have no =
step-cousins. Perhaps his wife is my step-cousin-once-removed-in-law, =

=

but their
four young sons are my step-cousins twice removed. Perhaps. (He's a
meteorologist, a career member of the New York Air National Guard. For=
several years after transferring from Alaska he was stationed in Buffa=

lo,

and now he's stationed at Albany, at the Air National Guard base that =

is

the principal contact for most US Antarctic missions.)

Does anyone actually know what those terms mean without having a family =
=

tree in front of them? I don't even know what a second cousin is. For =
=

relatives further away than cousin or uncle, I describe them step by ste=
p =

- eg. sister's husband's son's wife.

[GordonD]

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
On Fri, 08 Jun 2018 13:22:22 +0100, Peter T. Daniels

Post by Peter T. Daniels

Post by Dingbat

Post by Dingbat
Is uncle really limited to siblings of parents or their husbands?
So I just saw the question: How can you recognize "uncle" is father's
   brother or mother's brother? (Is there any "default option"? ), and
   I looked at the Wikipedia article for uncle and the definition at

Google,

Post by Dingbat
   and it seems that the word is limited to siblings of parents or

their

Post by Dingbat
   husbands. In Spanish, the translation, "tío," also covers cousins

and

Post by Dingbat
   uncles of parents, so it's a recursive relationship that stretches
   infinitely far up the ancestry chain. That means that when you

have a

Post by Dingbat
   family reunion based on a common ancestor, everyone has a personal
   relationship with everyone.
Is that not the case in English? What do you call the husband of the
   daughter of the sister of your grandmother, or the son of the

brother

Post by Dingbat
   of your great-grandfather?

https://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/168631/is-uncle-really-limited-to-siblings-of-parents-or-their-husbands

Post by Dingbat
I say: Serbs used to have a joint family household called a zadruga; I
   suspect that this must have affected their terms for relatives,

like in

Post by Dingbat
   India's languages, including Indian English. Serbs now live in

nuclear

Post by Dingbat
   families, so these terms might be obsolete.
In Indian English, an uncle is your parent's "own brother" (sibling)
   or "cousin brother" (usually 1st cousin). Your parents' son is

your "own

Post by Dingbat
   brother" and your grandparents' grandson is your "cousin

brother". The

Post by Dingbat
   generic term brother (unqualified by a prefix) could mean your

sibling or

Post by Dingbat
   your first cousin, especially in a joint family household where

you're

Post by Dingbat
   raised with your siblings and first cousins in the same house.

See this

Post by Dingbat
   question; it too raises the question of how you tell which parent's

https://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/129870/are-maternal-uncle-or-cousin-brother-commonly-used-in-english?rq=1
In English, an uncle is the brother or brother-in-law of a parent. Some
would even make a distinction between an uncle by blood and one by
marriage, if they don't like him very much - "Yes, he's my uncle but
he's only married to my aunt" - which implies quite clearly that the
speaker wishes he wasn't their uncle, even by marriage. It is possible
for children to address close friends of their parents as "Uncle",
although I think the current trend is to use the friend's first name,
and that usage, like the use of "Aunt" and "Uncle" for elderly
neighbours, is dying out.

But "Uncle" is also used in that last sense more generally; we have the
word "avuncular," which isn't likely to be used of an actual uncle. Note
also "Uncle Miltie," the nickname of the first huge US TV star, the comic
Milton Berle.

Post by Dingbat
The term I always hear used for other, more distant, relatives is
"cousin", without specifying the type of cousin or whether the person is
related by blood or marriage - most people get confused about
relationships like second cousin once removed, and don't bother with
working out the technical term.

A relative(?) sent me a postcard from Antarctica. (He probably flew the
plane on which the mailbag was carried from the base at McMurdo Sound.)
He is the son of my cousin's wife's previous marriage. He's thus my
cousin's stepson; if he were his son, he would be my cousin once removed;
so he is probably my step-cousin once removed -- but I have no
step-cousins. Perhaps his wife is my step-cousin-once-removed-in-law,
but their
four young sons are my step-cousins twice removed. Perhaps. (He's a
meteorologist, a career member of the New York Air National Guard. For
several years after transferring from Alaska he was stationed in Buffalo,
and now he's stationed at Albany, at the Air National Guard base that is
the principal contact for most US Antarctic missions.)

Does anyone actually know what those terms mean without having a family
tree in front of them?  I don't even know what a second cousin is.  For
relatives further away than cousin or uncle, I describe them step by
step - eg. sister's husband's son's wife.

Cousin means one of your parents is the sibling of one of theirs.

Second cousin means one of your grandparents is the sibling of one of
theirs.

[Peeler]

On Mon, 16 Jul 2018 17:49:06 +0100, GordonD, another mentally deficient

Post by GordonD
Cousin means one of your parents is the sibling of one of theirs.
Second cousin means one of your grandparents is the sibling of one of
theirs.

Troll-feeding idiot means EXACTLY someone like you, senile fool! <tsk>

[Jimmy Wilkinson Knife]

Post by GordonD

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
On Fri, 08 Jun 2018 13:22:22 +0100, Peter T. Daniels =

Post by Dingbat

Is uncle really limited to siblings of parents or their husbands?=
So I just saw the question: How can you recognize "uncle" is =

father's

brother or mother's brother? (Is there any "default option"? ),=

=

Post by GordonD

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife

Post by Dingbat
and

I looked at the Wikipedia article for uncle and the definition =

at =

Post by GordonD

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife

Post by Dingbat
Google,

and it seems that the word is limited to siblings of parents or=

=

Post by GordonD

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife

Post by Dingbat
their

husbands. In Spanish, the translation, "t=EDo," also covers cou=

sins =

Post by GordonD

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife

Post by Dingbat
and

uncles of parents, so it's a recursive relationship that stretc=

hes

Post by GordonD

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife

Post by Dingbat

infinitely far up the ancestry chain. That means that when you =

=

Post by GordonD

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife

Post by Dingbat
have a

family reunion based on a common ancestor, everyone has a perso=

nal

Post by GordonD

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife

Post by Dingbat

relationship with everyone.
Is that not the case in English? What do you call the husband of =

the

Post by GordonD

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife

Post by Dingbat

daughter of the sister of your grandmother, or the son of the =

brother

of your great-grandfather?
=

https://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/168631/is-uncle-really-limi=

ted-to-siblings-of-parents-or-their-husbands =

Post by GordonD

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife

Post by Dingbat

I say: Serbs used to have a joint family household called a =

zadruga; I

suspect that this must have affected their terms for relatives,=

=

Post by GordonD

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife

Post by Dingbat
like in

India's languages, including Indian English. Serbs now live in =

=

Post by GordonD

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife

Post by Dingbat
nuclear

families, so these terms might be obsolete.
In Indian English, an uncle is your parent's "own brother" (sibli=

ng)

Post by GordonD

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife

Post by Dingbat

or "cousin brother" (usually 1st cousin). Your parents' son is =

=

Post by GordonD

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife

Post by Dingbat
your "own

brother" and your grandparents' grandson is your "cousin =

brother". The

generic term brother (unqualified by a prefix) could mean your =

=

Post by GordonD

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife

Post by Dingbat
sibling or

your first cousin, especially in a joint family household where=

=

Post by GordonD

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife

Post by Dingbat
you're

raised with your siblings and first cousins in the same house. =

=

Post by GordonD

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife

Post by Dingbat
See this

question; it too raises the question of how you tell which =

parent's

relative an uncle is and the issue of a brother of the cousin =
=

https://ell.stackexchange.com/questions/129870/are-maternal-uncle-o=

r-cousin-brother-commonly-used-in-english?rq=3D1 =

Post by GordonD

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife

Post by Dingbat
In English, an uncle is the brother or brother-in-law of a parent. =

=

Post by GordonD

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife

Post by Dingbat
Some
would even make a distinction between an uncle by blood and one by
marriage, if they don't like him very much - "Yes, he's my uncle bu=

t

Post by GordonD

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife

Post by Dingbat
he's only married to my aunt" - which implies quite clearly that th=

e

Post by GordonD

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife

Post by Dingbat
speaker wishes he wasn't their uncle, even by marriage. It is possi=

ble

Post by GordonD

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife

Post by Dingbat
for children to address close friends of their parents as "Uncle",
although I think the current trend is to use the friend's first nam=

e,

Post by GordonD

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife

Post by Dingbat
and that usage, like the use of "Aunt" and "Uncle" for elderly
neighbours, is dying out.

But "Uncle" is also used in that last sense more generally; we have =

the

Post by GordonD

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife

word "avuncular," which isn't likely to be used of an actual uncle. =

=

Post by GordonD

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife

Note
also "Uncle Miltie," the nickname of the first huge US TV star, the =

=

Post by GordonD

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife

comic
Milton Berle.

Post by Dingbat
The term I always hear used for other, more distant, relatives is
"cousin", without specifying the type of cousin or whether the pers=

on =

Post by GordonD

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife

Post by Dingbat
is
related by blood or marriage - most people get confused about
relationships like second cousin once removed, and don't bother wit=

h

Post by GordonD

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife

Post by Dingbat
working out the technical term.

A relative(?) sent me a postcard from Antarctica. (He probably flew =

the

Post by GordonD

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife

plane on which the mailbag was carried from the base at McMurdo Soun=

d.)

Post by GordonD

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife

He is the son of my cousin's wife's previous marriage. He's thus my
cousin's stepson; if he were his son, he would be my cousin once =
removed;
so he is probably my step-cousin once removed -- but I have no =
step-cousins. Perhaps his wife is my step-cousin-once-removed-in-law=

, =

Post by GordonD

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife

but their
four young sons are my step-cousins twice removed. Perhaps. (He's a
meteorologist, a career member of the New York Air National Guard. F=

or

Post by GordonD

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife

several years after transferring from Alaska he was stationed in =
Buffalo,
and now he's stationed at Albany, at the Air National Guard base tha=

t =

Post by GordonD

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife

is
the principal contact for most US Antarctic missions.)

Does anyone actually know what those terms mean without having a =
family tree in front of them? I don't even know what a second cousin=

=

Post by GordonD

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
is. For relatives further away than cousin or uncle, I describe them=

=

Post by GordonD

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
step by step - eg. sister's husband's son's wife.

Cousin means one of your parents is the sibling of one of theirs.
Second cousin means one of your grandparents is the sibling of one of =

=

Post by GordonD
theirs.

I see. I never got to know anyone further away than a cousin, so I gues=
s =

that's why I never remembered it. I did meet some great uncles and so =

forth, but only when I was about 5, and they died before I was old enoug=
h =

to acknowledge things as complicated as distant relations.

Please don't try to teach me what "once removed" means :-)

[Lewis]

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
Does anyone actually know what those terms mean without having a family
tree in front of them?

Absolutely.

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
I don't even know what a second cousin is.

It's very simple. Siblings share a set of parents. First cousins share a
set of grandparents. Second cousins share a set of Great Grandparents.
Third cousins share a set off great-great grandparents, etc. So eighth
cousins share a set of ggggggg-grandparents.

"Removed" means a generational offset.

"Double" cousin means you are related on two sides, so a double third
cousin shares two sets of great-great-grandparents.

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
For relatives further away than cousin or uncle, I describe them step
by step - eg. sister's husband's son's wife.

Who can possibly keep track o that? Your sister's husband is our bother
in law, his son is your nephew, and his wife is either unrelated to you
or your niece by marriage, depending on whether you like her.

My wife's brother is my brother-in-law, and his wife is my wife's
sister-in-law.

[Peeler]

On Tue, 17 Jul 2018 23:31:12 -0000 (UTC), Lewis, the mentally deficient,

Post by Lewis

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
tree in front of them?

Absolutely.

You are absolutely an IDIOT! And you KNOW why, troll-feeding senile idiot!
<BG>

[Jimmy Wilkinson Knife]

On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 00:31:12 +0100, Lewis

Post by Lewis

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
Does anyone actually know what those terms mean without having a family
tree in front of them?

Absolutely.

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
I don't even know what a second cousin is.

It's very simple. Siblings share a set of parents. First cousins share a
set of grandparents. Second cousins share a set of Great Grandparents.
Third cousins share a set off great-great grandparents, etc. So eighth
cousins share a set of ggggggg-grandparents.
"Removed" means a generational offset.
"Double" cousin means you are related on two sides, so a double third
cousin shares two sets of great-great-grandparents.

I need a drink.

Post by Lewis

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
For relatives further away than cousin or uncle, I describe them step
by step - eg. sister's husband's son's wife.

Who can possibly keep track o that? Your sister's husband is our bother
in law, his son is your nephew, and his wife is either unrelated to you
or your niece by marriage, depending on whether you like her.
My wife's brother is my brother-in-law, and his wife is my wife's
sister-in-law.

It's a lot simpler to describe the relationship instead of using rare
terms like "third cousin once removed".

[Lewis]

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 00:31:12 +0100, Lewis

Post by Lewis

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
Does anyone actually know what those terms mean without having a family
tree in front of them?

Absolutely.

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
I don't even know what a second cousin is.

It's very simple. Siblings share a set of parents. First cousins share a
set of grandparents. Second cousins share a set of Great Grandparents.
Third cousins share a set off great-great grandparents, etc. So eighth
cousins share a set of ggggggg-grandparents.
"Removed" means a generational offset.
"Double" cousin means you are related on two sides, so a double third
cousin shares two sets of great-great-grandparents.

I need a drink.

Post by Lewis

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
For relatives further away than cousin or uncle, I describe them step
by step - eg. sister's husband's son's wife.

Who can possibly keep track o that? Your sister's husband is our bother
in law, his son is your nephew, and his wife is either unrelated to you
or your niece by marriage, depending on whether you like her.
My wife's brother is my brother-in-law, and his wife is my wife's
sister-in-law.

It's a lot simpler to describe the relationship instead of using rare
terms like "third cousin once removed".

You think "My great great grandparents great great great grandson"?
People would be thinking, "Isn't that your son?"

[Peeler]

On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 19:28:16 -0000 (UTC), Lewis, the inveterate

Post by Lewis

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
It's a lot simpler to describe the relationship instead of using rare
terms like "third cousin once removed".

You think "My great great grandparents great great great grandson"?
People would be thinking, "Isn't that your son?"

He thinks that he got another yet another mentally deficient, senile moron
on the hook, senile moron! <BG>

[Jimmy Wilkinson Knife]

On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 20:28:16 +0100, Lewis

Post by Lewis

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
On Wed, 18 Jul 2018 00:31:12 +0100, Lewis

Post by Lewis

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
Does anyone actually know what those terms mean without having a family
tree in front of them?

Absolutely.

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
I don't even know what a second cousin is.

It's very simple. Siblings share a set of parents. First cousins share a
set of grandparents. Second cousins share a set of Great Grandparents.
Third cousins share a set off great-great grandparents, etc. So eighth
cousins share a set of ggggggg-grandparents.
"Removed" means a generational offset.
"Double" cousin means you are related on two sides, so a double third
cousin shares two sets of great-great-grandparents.

I need a drink.

Post by Lewis

Post by Jimmy Wilkinson Knife
For relatives further away than cousin or uncle, I describe them step
by step - eg. sister's husband's son's wife.

Who can possibly keep track o that? Your sister's husband is our bother
in law, his son is your nephew, and his wife is either unrelated to you
or your niece by marriage, depending on whether you like her.
My wife's brother is my brother-in-law, and his wife is my wife's
sister-in-law.

It's a lot simpler to describe the relationship instead of using rare
terms like "third cousin once removed".

You think "My great great grandparents great great great grandson"?
People would be thinking, "Isn't that your son?"

Why on earth would they assume that?

[Athel Cornish-Bowden]

Post by Cheryl
[ … ]
In English, an uncle is the brother or brother-in-law of a parent. Some
would even make a distinction between an uncle by blood and one by
marriage, if they don't like him very much - "Yes, he's my uncle but
he's only married to my aunt" - which implies quite clearly that the
speaker wishes he wasn't their uncle, even by marriage. It is possible
for children to address close friends of their parents as "Uncle",
although I think the current trend is to use the friend's first name,
and that usage, like the use of "Aunt" and "Uncle" for elderly
neighbours, is dying out.
The term I always hear used for other, more distant, relatives is
"cousin", without specifying the type of cousin or whether the person
is related by blood or marriage - most people get confused about
relationships like second cousin once removed, and don't bother with
working out the technical term.
For example, I and my siblings always addressed and referred to our
father's uncle as "Uncle", but his cousin as "Cousin <firstname>", even
though he wasn't our first cousin, but a more distant relative.

That's exactly what we did. My actual aunts we called by their given
name without zny prefix.

Post by Cheryl
Our own first cousins, much closer to us in age, were simply addressed
by their first names, although they might be referred to as "my cousin"
when speaking to someone else.

Igualmente.

[occam]

Post by Dingbat
Is uncle really limited to siblings of parents or their husbands?
So I just saw the question: How can you recognize "uncle" is father's
brother or mother's brother?

In some languages (e.g Persian) this is clear in the word used --
'mother-brother' and 'father-brother' are different words, as are
'mother-sister' and and 'father-sister' to differentiate the aunts. I am
quite sure this is also common in other languages (e.g. Armenian) where
family relationships are more valued and respected.

Not so in English.

https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Persian/Phrasebook/Family

[Yusuf B Gursey]

Post by occam

Post by Dingbat
Is uncle really limited to siblings of parents or their husbands?
So I just saw the question: How can you recognize "uncle" is father's
brother or mother's brother?

In some languages (e.g Persian) this is clear in the word used --
'mother-brother' and 'father-brother' are different words, as are
'mother-sister' and and 'father-sister' to differentiate the aunts. I am
quite sure this is also common in other languages (e.g. Armenian) where
family relationships are more valued and respected.
Not so in English.

Turkish, Arabic among also distinguish

Post by occam
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Persian/Phrasebook/Family

[Peter Young]

Post by occam

Post by Dingbat
Is uncle really limited to siblings of parents or their husbands?
So I just saw the question: How can you recognize "uncle" is father's
brother or mother's brother?

In some languages (e.g Persian) this is clear in the word used --
'mother-brother' and 'father-brother' are different words, as are
'mother-sister' and and 'father-sister' to differentiate the aunts. I am
quite sure this is also common in other languages (e.g. Armenian) where
family relationships are more valued and respected.
Not so in English.

Going just a bit off-topic to the subject of grandparents, in Swedish,
Mother is Mor and Father is Far. All four grandparents have separate
titles, Farfar, Farmor, Mormor and Farmor. No idea about grandparents,
though.

Peter.

[Quinn C]

Post by Peter Young

Post by occam

Post by Dingbat
Is uncle really limited to siblings of parents or their husbands?
So I just saw the question: How can you recognize "uncle" is father's
brother or mother's brother?

In some languages (e.g Persian) this is clear in the word used --
'mother-brother' and 'father-brother' are different words, as are
'mother-sister' and and 'father-sister' to differentiate the aunts. I am
quite sure this is also common in other languages (e.g. Armenian) where
family relationships are more valued and respected.
Not so in English.

Going just a bit off-topic to the subject of grandparents, in Swedish,
Mother is Mor and Father is Far. All four grandparents have separate
titles, Farfar, Farmor, Mormor and Farmor. No idea about grandparents,
though.

You explained the grandparents, and uncles and aunts are farbror,
faster, morbror and moster following the same system.

[Peter Young]

Post by Quinn C

Post by Peter Young

Post by occam

Post by Dingbat
Is uncle really limited to siblings of parents or their husbands?
So I just saw the question: How can you recognize "uncle" is father's
brother or mother's brother?

In some languages (e.g Persian) this is clear in the word used --
'mother-brother' and 'father-brother' are different words, as are
'mother-sister' and and 'father-sister' to differentiate the aunts. I am
quite sure this is also common in other languages (e.g. Armenian) where
family relationships are more valued and respected.
Not so in English.

Going just a bit off-topic to the subject of grandparents, in Swedish,
Mother is Mor and Father is Far. All four grandparents have separate
titles, Farfar, Farmor, Mormor and Farmor. No idea about grandparents,
though.

You explained the grandparents, and uncles and aunts are farbror,
faster, morbror and moster following the same system.

I didn't know that, but it's very logical.

Peter.

[Lars Enderin]

Post by Peter Young

Post by Quinn C
You explained the grandparents, and uncles and aunts are farbror,
faster, morbror and moster following the same system.

I didn't know that, but it's very logical.

It's less precise than farmor, for example. Your "faster" is either your
father's sister or married to your father's brother.

Related:
The Swedish word for cousin (kusin) is strictly for children of
siblings. The children of "kusin-er" are "syssling-ar". That's usually
as far as we go with family relations.

[Anders D. Nygaard]

Post by Lars Enderin

Post by Peter Young

Post by Quinn C
You explained the grandparents, and uncles and aunts are farbror,
faster, morbror and moster following the same system.

I didn't know that, but it's very logical.

It's less precise than farmor, for example. Your "faster" is either your
father's sister or married to your father's brother.

It's curious how so closely related languages as Danish and Swedish
still differ significantly in this type of usage question.
A Danish "faster" will always be exactly a father's sister.
Similarly "farbror", which I understand in Swedish is (or can be)
used for basically any male of an older generation, even if totally
unrelated.

Post by Lars Enderin
The Swedish word for cousin (kusin) is strictly for children of
siblings.

Same for the *two* Danish words: "kusine" is a female first cousin
and "fætter" is a male first cousin. We do not have a gender-neutral
term (well, not quite true - there is an archaic "søskendebørn"
("sibling-children") referring reciprocally to the relation).

Post by Lars Enderin
The children of "kusin-er" are "syssling-ar". That's usually
as far as we go with family relations.

We have "halvkusine"/"halvfætter" (half cousin) or "næstsøskendebørn"
("next-sibling-children"), but only rarely used IME.

/Anders, Denmark.

[Quinn C]

Post by Anders D. Nygaard
Same for the *two* Danish words: "kusine" is a female first cousin
and "fætter" is a male first cousin.

That's funny. German has a Germanic set Vetter/Base, which sounds
old-fashioned now, and has been almost completely replaced by the
French Cousin/Cousine. You have kept half and replaced the other!

[Lars Enderin]

Post by Peter Young
Going just a bit off-topic to the subject of grandparents, in Swedish,
Mother is Mor and Father is Far. All four grandparents have separate
titles, Farfar, Farmor, Mormor and Farmor.

You missed out on Morfar, and repeated Farmor. I am both Farfar and
Morfar, since I have a son and a daughter and both have children.

Post by Peter Young
No idea about grandparents, though.

? Those are the grandparents. Swedish has no equivalent of "grand-".
Danish and Norwegian do have bestefar and bestemor, but seem to use
farfar, farmor, morfar, mormor these days.

[Peter Young]

Post by Lars Enderin

Post by Peter Young
Going just a bit off-topic to the subject of grandparents, in Swedish,
Mother is Mor and Father is Far. All four grandparents have separate
titles, Farfar, Farmor, Mormor and Farmor.

You missed out on Morfar, and repeated Farmor. I am both Farfar and
Morfar, since I have a son and a daughter and both have children.

So I did. Senile moment.

Post by Lars Enderin

Post by Peter Young
No idea about grandparents, though.

? Those are the grandparents. Swedish has no equivalent of "grand-".
Danish and Norwegian do have bestefar and bestemor, but seem to use
farfar, farmor, morfar, mormor these days.

Another one of those moments. I meant great-grandparents.

Peter, (a.k.a. half-awake of Cheltenham).

[Dingbat]

Post by Peter Young

Post by occam

Post by Dingbat
Is uncle really limited to siblings of parents or their husbands?
So I just saw the question: How can you recognize "uncle" is father's
brother or mother's brother?

In some languages (e.g Persian) this is clear in the word used --
'mother-brother' and 'father-brother' are different words, as are
'mother-sister' and and 'father-sister' to differentiate the aunts. I am
quite sure this is also common in other languages (e.g. Armenian) where
family relationships are more valued and respected.
Not so in English.

Going just a bit off-topic to the subject of grandparents, in Swedish,
Mother is Mor and Father is Far. All four grandparents have separate
titles, Farfar, Farmor, Mormor and Farmor. No idea about grandparents,
though.
Peter.

You used Farmor twice; perhaps the 2nd should be Morfar.

[musika]

Post by Dingbat

Post by Peter Young
Going just a bit off-topic to the subject of grandparents, in Swedish,
Mother is Mor and Father is Far. All four grandparents have separate
titles, Farfar, Farmor, Mormor and Farmor. No idea about grandparents,
though.

You used Farmor twice; perhaps the 2nd should be Morfar.

Farmor than necessary.

[occam]

Post by musika

Post by Dingbat

Post by Peter Young
Going just a bit off-topic to the subject of grandparents, in Swedish,
Mother is Mor and Father is Far. All four grandparents have separate
titles, Farfar, Farmor, Mormor and Farmor.  No idea about grandparents,
though.

You used Farmor twice; perhaps the 2nd should be Morfar.
 

Farmor than necessary.

That's Farfar the funniest line in this thread. Mormor of the same, please!

[Anders D. Nygaard]

Post by occam

Post by Dingbat
Is uncle really limited to siblings of parents or their husbands?
So I just saw the question: How can you recognize "uncle" is father's
brother or mother's brother?

In some languages (e.g Persian) this is clear in the word used --
'mother-brother' and 'father-brother' are different words, as are
'mother-sister' and and 'father-sister' to differentiate the aunts. I am
quite sure this is also common in other languages (e.g. Armenian) where
family relationships are more valued and respected.
Not so in English.
https://en.wikibooks.org/wiki/Persian/Phrasebook/Family

No need to go further afield than Danish:
moster: mother's sister
faster: father's sister
Both are "tante" = "aunt", and are married to "onkel".

morbror: mother's brother
farbror: father's brother.
Both are "onkel" = "uncle", and are married to "tante".

... though some might say that "tante" and "onkel" should be used only
for those not blood-related. Usage varies by family in any case.

/Anders, Denmark.

[Mark Brader]

Post by Dingbat
Is uncle really limited to siblings of parents or their husbands?

Yes.

The father of an uncle or aunt is a great-uncle (or sometimes grand-uncle).
The father of a great-uncle or great-aunt is a great-great-uncle, and
so on.

Post by Dingbat
So I just saw the question: How can you recognize "uncle" is father's
brother or mother's brother?

Just translate the sentence into Latin and see whether it comes out as
"patruus" or "avunculus".


sis-- grandma
| |
x dtr mother

Post by Dingbat
Is that not the case in English? What do you call the husband of the
daughter of the sister of your grandmother,

The daughter would be my first cousin once removed (and I would be
hers). For the husband you could say first cousin once removed in law,
but I think it would be more common to use a more indirect description.

Post by Dingbat
or the son of the brother of your great-grandfather?

First cousin twice removed. Again, I would also be his first cousin
twice removed.

[Mark Brader]

Post by Mark Brader
sis-- grandma
| |
x dtr mother

Sorry, that was a note to myself. Please ignore it.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Mark Brader

Post by Dingbat
Is uncle really limited to siblings of parents or their husbands?

Yes.
The father of an uncle or aunt is a great-uncle (or sometimes grand-uncle).
The father of a great-uncle or great-aunt is a great-great-uncle, and
so on.

...

I called my great-aunts and great-uncles (who I had a lot of) "Aunt
Firstname" and "Uncle Firstname", but in referring to one of my
great-aunts them to someone who didn't know her I'd say "great-aunt".

[Don P]

Post by Jerry Friedman
I called my great-aunts and great-uncles (who I had a lot of) "Aunt
Firstname" and "Uncle Firstname", but in referring to one of my
great-aunts them to someone who didn't know her I'd say "great-aunt".

This was standard middle-class usage in midcentury England. We were very
close to my grandmother's sister, who was always Aunt Daisy to all (and
a Swedish cousin, identically named, also visited every year, so she was
Swedish Aunt Daisy although far separated from our grandparents' line.)

[Peter Moylan]

Post by Don P

Post by Jerry Friedman
I called my great-aunts and great-uncles (who I had a lot of) "Aunt
Firstname" and "Uncle Firstname", but in referring to one of my
great-aunts them to someone who didn't know her I'd say
"great-aunt".

This was standard middle-class usage in midcentury England. We were
very close to my grandmother's sister, who was always Aunt Daisy to
all (and a Swedish cousin, identically named, also visited every
year, so she was Swedish Aunt Daisy although far separated from our
grandparents' line.)

My four grandparents were adequately supplied with siblings, but I never
met most of them. WIWAL I did meet Aunty Dord (her real name was Doris),
the sister of my maternal grandmother, but I was probably too young to
understand the difference between an aunt and a great-aunt.

I also met one of her brothers when our family took a trip through the
arid west of Victoria, but at the time I had no idea of what the
relationship was. I worked out the relationship years later, during my
genealogical studies.

[CDB]

Post by Don P

Post by Jerry Friedman
I called my great-aunts and great-uncles (who I had a lot of) "Aunt
Firstname" and "Uncle Firstname", but in referring to one of my
great-aunts them to someone who didn't know her I'd say
"great-aunt".

This was standard middle-class usage in midcentury England. We were
very close to my grandmother's sister, who was always Aunt Daisy to
all (and a Swedish cousin, identically named, also visited every
year, so she was Swedish Aunt Daisy although far separated from our
grandparents' line.)

The same in my family, except that the older and more remote members
were given by last name: Grandmother Percival, Grandfather Bellemare,
Great-Aunt Margaret Scott. They were all old enough to have moved on
before I could have much to do with them, and I wondered if that
difference in nomenclature reflected a change in custom, as with
Dickens's "Uncle Scrooge", who had a first name, Ebenezer, while
Disney's had a last name, McDuck.

[Cheryl]

Post by CDB

Post by Don P

Post by Jerry Friedman
I called my great-aunts and great-uncles (who I had a lot of) "Aunt
 Firstname" and "Uncle Firstname", but in referring to one of my
great-aunts them to someone who didn't know her I'd say
"great-aunt".

This was standard middle-class usage in midcentury England. We were
very close to my grandmother's sister, who was always Aunt Daisy to
all (and a Swedish cousin, identically named, also visited every
year, so she was Swedish Aunt Daisy although far separated from our
grandparents' line.)

The same in my family, except that the older and more remote members
were given by last name: Grandmother Percival, Grandfather Bellemare,
Great-Aunt Margaret Scott.  They were all old enough to have moved on
before I could have much to do with them, and I wondered if that
difference in nomenclature reflected a change in custom, as with
Dickens's "Uncle Scrooge", who had a first name, Ebenezer, while
Disney's had a last name, McDuck.

We only used the last name to avoid confusion - and not always then. Our
maternal grandparents were "Mom" and "Dad", and cousins who used these
titles for their own parents said "Mom Andrews" or "Dad Andrews" when
speaking of them. More common methods of clarifying names was to say
something like "<spouse's name> Bob". I had a couple of uncles named
"Bob", and since we usually addressed both uncles and cousins by their
first names, it could get confusing - especially after cousin Bobby
decided the nickname was too childish and he wanted to be called "Bob" too.

I never knew my other grandparents, but if they came up in conversation
and there was any possibility of confusion, some phrase like "your
father's mother" or "your grandfather on your father's side" would be used.

[Quinn C]

Post by Cheryl
More common methods of clarifying names was to say
something like "<spouse's name> Bob". I had a couple of uncles named
"Bob", and since we usually addressed both uncles and cousins by their
first names, it could get confusing - especially after cousin Bobby
decided the nickname was too childish and he wanted to be called "Bob" too.

This "two levels of nickname" thing feels very English to me. I think
when Germans don't like their childish nicknames any more, they're more
likely to go by their full names.

I'm assuming that was "Robert" in your relatives. At one point, there
was a Rob, a Bob and one more of I don't remember which one in my choir
- currently, we're left with just one Rob. But even when there were
three, no one wanted to be "Robert", apparently. We had Cathy, Katie
and Catherine at some point (or something similar) - the three agreed
to be called differently, and in this case, one chose the full name,
wenn she could have been Kate, e.g.

[Jerry Friedman]

Post by Quinn C

Post by Cheryl
More common methods of clarifying names was to say
something like "<spouse's name> Bob". I had a couple of uncles named
"Bob", and since we usually addressed both uncles and cousins by their
first names, it could get confusing - especially after cousin Bobby
decided the nickname was too childish and he wanted to be called "Bob" too.

This "two levels of nickname" thing feels very English to me.

...

And would be Russian if two levels were enough.

[Cheryl]

Post by Quinn C
This "two levels of nickname" thing feels very English to me. I think
when Germans don't like their childish nicknames any more, they're more
likely to go by their full names.
I'm assuming that was "Robert" in your relatives. At one point, there
was a Rob, a Bob and one more of I don't remember which one in my choir
- currently, we're left with just one Rob. But even when there were
three, no one wanted to be "Robert", apparently. We had Cathy, Katie
and Catherine at some point (or something similar) - the three agreed
to be called differently, and in this case, one chose the full name,
wenn she could have been Kate, e.g.

Yes, they were all Roberts, and they all used the same nickname - not,
for example, Rob (I know an unrelated Robert nicknamed "Rob"). I was
going to say it's a bit more common for boys than girls to adopt a
"grown-up" version of their name, although not usually the full version.
But I might be wrong - one of my sisters switched just like Cousin Bobby
(although with a different name) and another, after using her full name
until she left home, picked up a nickname as an adult - which none of
her birth family remember to use. Actually, I had a number of relatives
who use different names with different groups - in one case, a
completely different name. My conclusions about naming may be biased due
to my past experiences.

I think there is or was a tendency (in English) to consider certain
nicknames a bit childish - and contrarily, for adults to assume that
children never use the full version of their name. My brother had
problems with that - even when he was introduced by name to new adults
as a child, a surprising number promptly addressed him as "Eddie"
instead of "Edward" which always annoyed him.

No one ever made a nickname out of my name, although when I was a child
I was sometimes addressed by my first and middle names when my mother or
grandmother was annoyed at me. That and "Young lady!!!"

[Rich Ulrich]

Post by Cheryl
I think there is or was a tendency (in English) to consider certain
nicknames a bit childish - and contrarily, for adults to assume that
children never use the full version of their name. My brother had
problems with that - even when he was introduced by name to new adults
as a child, a surprising number promptly addressed him as "Eddie"
instead of "Edward" which always annoyed him.

In high school, I switched from Dickie to Richard, but not
everyone followed that.

In college, so many people ignored my "Richard" to call me
"Rich" that I finally gave up, and started calling myself Rich.

I gathered from somewhere that nicknames have fallen out
of popularity with today's younger generations - That is,
relatively fewer of them use nicknames. I don't know if that
was supposed to be age 40 and lower, or what the cut-point was.

I haven't been in any position to do any counts.

[m***@att.net]

Post by Mark Brader
The father of an uncle or aunt is a great-uncle (or sometimes grand-uncle).
The father of a great-uncle or great-aunt is a great-great-uncle, and
so on.

The father of your uncle may be somebody's great uncle, but the father of your uncle is your grandfather. Your great uncle's son is your 2nd cousin, I believe. or maybe it is 'cousin-once-removed'.

[Mark Brader]

Post by m***@att.net

Post by Mark Brader
The father of an uncle or aunt is a great-uncle (or sometimes grand-uncle).
The father of a great-uncle or great-aunt is a great-great-uncle, and
so on.

The father of your uncle may be somebody's great uncle, but the father
of your uncle is your grandfather.

Whoops, that's right. I got it backwards: your great-uncle is the *uncle
of your father or mother*.

I never knew any of my great-uncles, but I *am* a great-uncle, so I'm
not used to thinking of the relationship from the other end.

Post by m***@att.net
Your great uncle's son is your 2nd cousin, I believe. or maybe it is
'cousin-once-removed'.

First cousin once removed.

[Cheryl]

Post by Mark Brader

Post by m***@att.net

Post by Mark Brader
The father of an uncle or aunt is a great-uncle (or sometimes grand-uncle).
The father of a great-uncle or great-aunt is a great-great-uncle, and
so on.

The father of your uncle may be somebody's great uncle, but the father
of your uncle is your grandfather.

Whoops, that's right. I got it backwards: your great-uncle is the *uncle
of your father or mother*.
I never knew any of my great-uncles, but I *am* a great-uncle, so I'm
not used to thinking of the relationship from the other end.

Post by m***@att.net
Your great uncle's son is your 2nd cousin, I believe. or maybe it is
'cousin-once-removed'.

First cousin once removed.

I always have to look up the cousin terms because they confuse me. In
everyday use when I was a child, a "cousin" was one of my numerous first
cousins. But I also had a cousin who was a contemporary and friend as
well as a relative of my father. Eventually, I learned he was really my
father's first cousin, which made him my...well, that's where I started
getting confused. For a long time I wavered between "second cousin" and
"cousin once removed", but I now believe he was technically my first
cousin once removed. It was much simpler, if too vague by some
standards, to say "cousin".

I didn't have as many relatives on my mother's side, although there was
"Uncle George" who was actually my grandfather's uncle, and some of his
second wife's step-children by her first two marriages who perhaps
weren't technically relatives at all, but were treated as such - except
that they weren't referred to using family terminology because no one
much cared to or could work out relationships.

My great-great-aunt by marriage was a lovely woman who raised two
different groups of step-children by two marriages to widowers with
children, got on well with them all, and also got on with the relatives
of her third husband. Step-families, then and now, didn't always get on
so well.

[Quinn C]

Post by Cheryl

Post by Mark Brader

Post by m***@att.net

Post by Mark Brader
The father of an uncle or aunt is a great-uncle (or sometimes grand-uncle).
The father of a great-uncle or great-aunt is a great-great-uncle, and
so on.

The father of your uncle may be somebody's great uncle, but the father
of your uncle is your grandfather.

Whoops, that's right. I got it backwards: your great-uncle is the *uncle
of your father or mother*.
I never knew any of my great-uncles, but I *am* a great-uncle, so I'm
not used to thinking of the relationship from the other end.

Post by m***@att.net
Your great uncle's son is your 2nd cousin, I believe. or maybe it is
'cousin-once-removed'.

First cousin once removed.

I always have to look up the cousin terms because they confuse me. In
everyday use when I was a child, a "cousin" was one of my numerous first
cousins. But I also had a cousin who was a contemporary and friend as
well as a relative of my father. Eventually, I learned he was really my
father's first cousin, which made him my...well, that's where I started
getting confused. For a long time I wavered between "second cousin" and
"cousin once removed", but I now believe he was technically my first
cousin once removed. It was much simpler, if too vague by some
standards, to say "cousin".

I called these people "my father's cousin". I regularly met two of
them, and their mother, my great-aunt, at family functions. Also,
another great-aunt from the same grandmother (who wasn't a blood
relative as she had been informally adopted), but no other great-uncles
or great-aunts.

But my second cousins I simply called "cousins".

[Cheryl]

Post by Quinn C

Post by Cheryl

Post by Mark Brader

Post by m***@att.net

Post by Mark Brader
The father of an uncle or aunt is a great-uncle (or sometimes grand-uncle).
The father of a great-uncle or great-aunt is a great-great-uncle, and
so on.

The father of your uncle may be somebody's great uncle, but the father
of your uncle is your grandfather.

Whoops, that's right. I got it backwards: your great-uncle is the *uncle
of your father or mother*.
I never knew any of my great-uncles, but I *am* a great-uncle, so I'm
not used to thinking of the relationship from the other end.

Post by m***@att.net
Your great uncle's son is your 2nd cousin, I believe. or maybe it is
'cousin-once-removed'.

First cousin once removed.

I always have to look up the cousin terms because they confuse me. In
everyday use when I was a child, a "cousin" was one of my numerous first
cousins. But I also had a cousin who was a contemporary and friend as
well as a relative of my father. Eventually, I learned he was really my
father's first cousin, which made him my...well, that's where I started
getting confused. For a long time I wavered between "second cousin" and
"cousin once removed", but I now believe he was technically my first
cousin once removed. It was much simpler, if too vague by some
standards, to say "cousin".

I called these people "my father's cousin". I regularly met two of
them, and their mother, my great-aunt, at family functions. Also,
another great-aunt from the same grandmother (who wasn't a blood
relative as she had been informally adopted), but no other great-uncles
or great-aunts.
But my second cousins I simply called "cousins".

I think Cousin W. was my only non-first cousin I knew of. Both my
parents' families were not large a generation or so back. I met my
great-uncle on that side of the family a few times - he was one of only
three children in his generation, and took an avuncular interest in the
children and grandchildren of his two brothers, especially my father and
his siblings - their father (my great-grandfather) died fairly young. My
mother had no first cousins - her father had a sister who died in
infancy, and her mother was an only child. I was heard stories of more
distant maternal relatives, but aside from my great grandfather and my
great-great-aunt and uncle, they were all dead or emigrated - or both -
before I could know them. I rather vaguely thought of them all as "some
kind of cousin". They were generally cousins, aunts or uncles of my
maternal grandmother. My maternal grandfather's family was smaller and,
with the step-relations of my great-great-aunt by marriage, complicated.
I've dabbled a bit in working out relationships. but it's confusing and
made more difficult by poor records and facts like the way my
grandfather on that side appeared to have had as little to do with his
step-father as possible, while still somehow being consulted about minor
inheritance issues connected to said step-father's death following his
next marriage; at least, I'm assuming "Aunt Kitty" was his step-father's
second (or maybe third) wife. I'm reasonably certain I never met Aunt
Kitty, who surely doesn't count as my aunt or cousin by any calculation.
My grandfather rarely mentioned his step-father, and certainly didn't
socialize much (if at all) with his step-father's relatives.

[Peter T. Daniels]

On Friday, June 8, 2018 at 2:27:48 PM UTC-4, ***@att.net wrote:

[no, they didn't]

Post by m***@att.net

Post by Mark Brader
The father of an uncle or aunt is a great-uncle (or sometimes grand-uncle).
The father of a great-uncle or great-aunt is a great-great-uncle, and
so on.

The father of your uncle may be somebody's great uncle, but the father of your uncle is your grandfather. Your great uncle's son is your 2nd cousin, I believe. or maybe it is 'cousin-once-removed'.

My great-aunt's son and daughter were my mother's cousins and my cousins
once removed.

Their children are my second cousins.

[s***@my-deja.com]

Post by Dingbat
Is uncle really limited to siblings of parents or their husbands?

Young children can be told by their parents to call "Aunt" or
"Uncle" people who are in reality no relation at all - they are
just friends of the parents.

Then there is the Chinese "Shu shu" - a polite way for children
to address male adults of about their parents age.

[Ant]

Post by s***@my-deja.com

Post by Dingbat
Is uncle really limited to siblings of parents or their husbands?

Young children can be told by their parents to call "Aunt" or
"Uncle" people who are in reality no relation at all - they are
just friends of the parents.
Then there is the Chinese "Shu shu" - a polite way for children
to address male adults of about their parents age.

Yep, this is common in Chinese culture even if not family related.
--
Quote of the Week: "... Here's intelligent things, and it seems they
want us for food. First, they'll smash us up -- ships, machines, guns,
cities, all the order and organisation. All that will go. If we were the
size of ants we might pull through. But we're not. It's all too bulky to
stop. That's the first certainty." Eh? ..." --H.G. Wells' The War of the
Worlds
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