Series that changed too much

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

It happens. You latch onto a series and follow every new book
eagerly. Then gradually it seems that the elements you loved
about the series start leaching out of it. You keep going, hoping
for a turnaround that never quite comes, then finally the new book
comes out, and you think: Um, maybe not.

I can think of several:

Kim Harrison's Rachael Morgan books. They started out focused on
a three person security/investigation team: Rachel, the first person,
flighty and judgement lacking witch, Ivy the hypercompetent but
damaged and volitile vampire and Jenks, the solid family-man and
backup guy extrodinare pixie, and the focus of the books seemed to
be on the tense and possibly romantic relationship between Rachael
and Ivy, then we gradually started to wander and Ivy dropped almost
completely from the storyline, and we got a long series of self generated
messes from Rachel.. I have to admit that while I have the last book,
I have not got around to reading it, and it's not getting any higher
in my SBR.

Gor: Perhaps the qintessential example. Started as a competent ERB
knock off, with maybe a bit more sex than ERB could get away with
becuse, 70s. Then things took a turn, and I thought it was some sort
of arc that would lead back to sanity after the complete deconstruction
of the hero, but that turn never came. Things stayed entertaining enough
through the defense of Port Kar, but after that, the turn became the
story, and I dropped out.

Honor harrington: Don't make Kirk an admiral. I'm still hanging in,
but there's a reason there are more Hornblower books than Lord Nelson
books. Add to that Weber's seemingly ever growing fascination with
meetings and longer and longer books where less and less happens and
I'm on the line.

Safehold: Similar. We started with the story of a brave woman turned
male android and her/his quest with a small circle of friends to save
a world. We ended (for now) with him being almost just a footnote.
I don't think I will be back for the next arc.

FM Busby, the Demu series. One great book, one good book, and one WTF
book. If there had been a book four, I don't think I would have bought it.

What are your examples?

[David Johnston]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
It happens. You latch onto a series and follow every new book
eagerly. Then gradually it seems that the elements you loved
about the series start leaching out of it. You keep going, hoping
for a turnaround that never quite comes, then finally the new book
comes out, and you think: Um, maybe not.
Kim Harrison's Rachael Morgan books. They started out focused on
a three person security/investigation team: Rachel, the first person,
flighty and judgement lacking witch, Ivy the hypercompetent but
damaged and volitile vampire and Jenks, the solid family-man and
backup guy extrodinare pixie, and the focus of the books seemed to
be on the tense and possibly romantic relationship between Rachael
and Ivy, then we gradually started to wander and Ivy dropped almost
completely from the storyline, and we got a long series of self generated
messes from Rachel.. I have to admit that while I have the last book,
I have not got around to reading it, and it's not getting any higher
in my SBR.
Gor: Perhaps the qintessential example. Started as a competent ERB
knock off, with maybe a bit more sex than ERB could get away with
becuse, 70s. Then things took a turn, and I thought it was some sort
of arc that would lead back to sanity after the complete deconstruction
of the hero, but that turn never came. Things stayed entertaining enough
through the defense of Port Kar, but after that, the turn became the
story, and I dropped out.
Honor harrington: Don't make Kirk an admiral. I'm still hanging in,
but there's a reason there are more Hornblower books than Lord Nelson
books. Add to that Weber's seemingly ever growing fascination with
meetings and longer and longer books where less and less happens and
I'm on the line.
Safehold: Similar. We started with the story of a brave woman turned
male android and her/his quest with a small circle of friends to save
a world. We ended (for now) with him being almost just a footnote.
I don't think I will be back for the next arc.
FM Busby, the Demu series. One great book, one good book, and one WTF
book. If there had been a book four, I don't think I would have bought it.
What are your examples?

Anita Blake obviously. I thought Dune was wasting my time after the
first book. I'm a little annoyed that I've just read the fourth book in
the Peter Brett Warded Man series and it looks like its losing momentum
more or less like the Wheel of Time.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by David Johnston

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
It happens. You latch onto a series and follow every new book
eagerly. Then gradually it seems that the elements you loved
about the series start leaching out of it. You keep going, hoping
for a turnaround that never quite comes, then finally the new book
comes out, and you think: Um, maybe not.
Kim Harrison's Rachael Morgan books. They started out focused on
a three person security/investigation team: Rachel, the first person,
flighty and judgement lacking witch, Ivy the hypercompetent but
damaged and volitile vampire and Jenks, the solid family-man and
backup guy extrodinare pixie, and the focus of the books seemed to
be on the tense and possibly romantic relationship between Rachael
and Ivy, then we gradually started to wander and Ivy dropped almost
completely from the storyline, and we got a long series of self generated
messes from Rachel.. I have to admit that while I have the last book,
I have not got around to reading it, and it's not getting any higher
in my SBR.
Gor: Perhaps the qintessential example. Started as a competent ERB
knock off, with maybe a bit more sex than ERB could get away with
becuse, 70s. Then things took a turn, and I thought it was some sort
of arc that would lead back to sanity after the complete deconstruction
of the hero, but that turn never came. Things stayed entertaining enough
through the defense of Port Kar, but after that, the turn became the
story, and I dropped out.
Honor harrington: Don't make Kirk an admiral. I'm still hanging in,
but there's a reason there are more Hornblower books than Lord Nelson
books. Add to that Weber's seemingly ever growing fascination with
meetings and longer and longer books where less and less happens and
I'm on the line.
Safehold: Similar. We started with the story of a brave woman turned
male android and her/his quest with a small circle of friends to save
a world. We ended (for now) with him being almost just a footnote.
I don't think I will be back for the next arc.
FM Busby, the Demu series. One great book, one good book, and one WTF
book. If there had been a book four, I don't think I would have bought it.
What are your examples?

Anita Blake obviously. I thought Dune was wasting my time after the
first book. I'm a little annoyed that I've just read the fourth book in
the Peter Brett Warded Man series and it looks like its losing momentum
more or less like the Wheel of Time.

I didn't mention AB because the only one I've read came after the
change. I totally agree and lost momentum on Dune, althought I did
think 3 was better than 2. Of course a root canal is better than 2.

[Juho Julkunen]

In article <***@mid.individual.net>, ***@loft.tnolan.com
says...

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by David Johnston
Anita Blake obviously. I thought Dune was wasting my time after the
first book. I'm a little annoyed that I've just read the fourth book in

I didn't mention AB because the only one I've read came after the
change. I totally agree and lost momentum on Dune, althought I did
think 3 was better than 2. Of course a root canal is better than 2.

I thought Children was the weakest Dune novel, and quite liked the
second one. This appears to be a minority view.

5 & 6 could have done with more editing, but on the whole are something
of a return to form.

[David DeLaney]

Post by Juho Julkunen

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I totally agree and lost momentum on Dune, althought I did
think 3 was better than 2. Of course a root canal is better than 2.

I thought Children was the weakest Dune novel, and quite liked the
second one. This appears to be a minority view.

It appears, from years of watching people comment on that series, that fans
agree that at least one of the sequels was one they couldn't stand, or had to
force their way through ... but there doesn't seem to be any agreement on which
one it -was-.

For me I think it was Dune Messiah... but it's been so long since I reread the
series that it might be a totally different one now. I do remember enjoying
God Emperor and Chapterhouse.

Dave

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Post by David DeLaney
It appears, from years of watching people comment on that
series, that fans agree that at least one of the sequels was one
they couldn't stand, or had to force their way through ... but
there doesn't seem to be any agreement on which one it -was-.

For me, it was Dune itself. I made it through, but have never felt
the slightest inclination to climb back into that rabbit hole again.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Greg Goss]

Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy

Post by David DeLaney
It appears, from years of watching people comment on that
series, that fans agree that at least one of the sequels was one
they couldn't stand, or had to force their way through ... but
there doesn't seem to be any agreement on which one it -was-.

For me, it was Dune itself. I made it through, but have never felt
the slightest inclination to climb back into that rabbit hole again.

It took me three or four tries, but eventually I finished and enjoyed
it.

[Juho Julkunen]

Post by David DeLaney

Post by Juho Julkunen

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
I totally agree and lost momentum on Dune, althought I did
think 3 was better than 2. Of course a root canal is better than 2.

I thought Children was the weakest Dune novel, and quite liked the
second one. This appears to be a minority view.

It appears, from years of watching people comment on that series, that fans
agree that at least one of the sequels was one they couldn't stand, or had to
force their way through ... but there doesn't seem to be any agreement on which
one it -was-.
For me I think it was Dune Messiah... but it's been so long since I reread the
series that it might be a totally different one now. I do remember enjoying
God Emperor and Chapterhouse.

My opinion on God Emperor used to flip every time I read it.

[Gary R. Schmidt]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
It happens. You latch onto a series and follow every new book
eagerly. Then gradually it seems that the elements you loved
about the series start leaching out of it. You keep going, hoping
for a turnaround that never quite comes, then finally the new book
comes out, and you think: Um, maybe not.

[SNIP]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
What are your examples?

Riverworld.

Cheers,
Gary B-)

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by Gary R. Schmidt

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
It happens. You latch onto a series and follow every new book
eagerly. Then gradually it seems that the elements you loved
about the series start leaching out of it. You keep going, hoping
for a turnaround that never quite comes, then finally the new book
comes out, and you think: Um, maybe not.

[SNIP]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
What are your examples?

Riverworld.
Cheers,
Gary B-)

Ah, good one. That's also an example of a "We lied to you under color
of authority" retcon. Hate those.

[Greg Goss]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
It happens. You latch onto a series and follow every new book
eagerly. Then gradually it seems that the elements you loved
about the series start leaching out of it. You keep going, hoping
for a turnaround that never quite comes, then finally the new book
comes out, and you think: Um, maybe not.

...

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Honor Harrington: Don't make Kirk an admiral. I'm still hanging in,
but there's a reason there are more Hornblower books than Lord Nelson
books. Add to that Weber's seemingly ever growing fascination with
meetings and longer and longer books where less and less happens and
I'm on the line.

Are you familiar with "Honor Among Thieves"? A well-written (but
British-spelled) book that short-circuits the last half of the
Harrington series to a single-novel conclusion.

[Cryptoengineer]

Post by Greg Goss

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
It happens. You latch onto a series and follow every new book
eagerly. Then gradually it seems that the elements you loved
about the series start leaching out of it. You keep going, hoping
for a turnaround that never quite comes, then finally the new book
comes out, and you think: Um, maybe not.

...

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Honor Harrington: Don't make Kirk an admiral. I'm still hanging in,
but there's a reason there are more Hornblower books than Lord Nelson
books. Add to that Weber's seemingly ever growing fascination with
meetings and longer and longer books where less and less happens and
I'm on the line.

Are you familiar with "Honor Among Thieves"? A well-written (but
British-spelled) book that short-circuits the last half of the
Harrington series to a single-novel conclusion.

Shouldn't that be 'Honour Among Thieves', then?

pt

[David Johnston]

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Greg Goss

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
It happens. You latch onto a series and follow every new book
eagerly. Then gradually it seems that the elements you loved
about the series start leaching out of it. You keep going, hoping
for a turnaround that never quite comes, then finally the new book
comes out, and you think: Um, maybe not.

...

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Honor Harrington: Don't make Kirk an admiral. I'm still hanging in,
but there's a reason there are more Hornblower books than Lord Nelson
books. Add to that Weber's seemingly ever growing fascination with
meetings and longer and longer books where less and less happens and
I'm on the line.

Are you familiar with "Honor Among Thieves"? A well-written (but
British-spelled) book that short-circuits the last half of the
Harrington series to a single-novel conclusion.

Shouldn't that be 'Honour Among Thieves', then?

Proper names are not bound by rules of spelling. If your name is Xtreme
Kool Dood then that's how it should be spelled.

[Robert Carnegie]

Post by David Johnston

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Greg Goss

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
It happens. You latch onto a series and follow every new book
eagerly. Then gradually it seems that the elements you loved
about the series start leaching out of it. You keep going, hoping
for a turnaround that never quite comes, then finally the new book
comes out, and you think: Um, maybe not.

...

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Honor Harrington: Don't make Kirk an admiral. I'm still hanging in,
but there's a reason there are more Hornblower books than Lord Nelson
books. Add to that Weber's seemingly ever growing fascination with
meetings and longer and longer books where less and less happens and
I'm on the line.

Are you familiar with "Honor Among Thieves"? A well-written (but
British-spelled) book that short-circuits the last half of the
Harrington series to a single-novel conclusion.

Shouldn't that be 'Honour Among Thieves', then?

Proper names are not bound by rules of spelling. If your name is Xtreme
Kool Dood then that's how it should be spelled.

Having said that, in British editions the heroine
is named Honoria Harrington. :-)

(Mainly to pay you back for Harry Potter's
friend "Henry Granger". Literally unbelievable.)

[Jerry Brown]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
It happens. You latch onto a series and follow every new book
eagerly. Then gradually it seems that the elements you loved
about the series start leaching out of it. You keep going, hoping
for a turnaround that never quite comes, then finally the new book
comes out, and you think: Um, maybe not.
What are your examples?

The Queendom of Sol

Partway through "The Collapsium" I was delighted to find out that
there were two sequels ready and waiting for me, plus a third due to
be published by the time I was ready for it...

So I opened "The Wellstone" looking forward to more of the upbeat
scientific romance which had been the hallmark of the first book. A
few pages in I realised I was likely going to be disappointed, but
kept on in the hope of a final happy twist (which sort of happened,
but for humanity a a whole rather than the characters I'd cared about
since the first book).

So I reread The Collapsium and filed the other 3 away in my
not-to-be-reread pile.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
It happens. You latch onto a series and follow every new book
eagerly. Then gradually it seems that the elements you loved
about the series start leaching out of it. You keep going,
hoping for a turnaround that never quite comes, then finally the
new book comes out, and you think: Um, maybe not.
Kim Harrison's Rachael Morgan books. They started out focused
on a three person security/investigation team: Rachel, the first
person, flighty and judgement lacking witch, Ivy the
hypercompetent but damaged and volitile vampire and Jenks, the
solid family-man and backup guy extrodinare pixie, and the focus
of the books seemed to be on the tense and possibly romantic
relationship between Rachael and Ivy, then we gradually started
to wander and Ivy dropped almost completely from the storyline,
and we got a long series of self generated messes from Rachel..
I have to admit that while I have the last book, I have not got
around to reading it, and it's not getting any higher in my SBR.
Gor: Perhaps the qintessential example. Started as a competent
ERB knock off, with maybe a bit more sex than ERB could get away
with becuse, 70s. Then things took a turn, and I thought it was
some sort of arc that would lead back to sanity after the
complete deconstruction of the hero, but that turn never came.
Things stayed entertaining enough through the defense of Port
Kar, but after that, the turn became the story, and I dropped
out.
Honor harrington: Don't make Kirk an admiral. I'm still
hanging in, but there's a reason there are more Hornblower books
than Lord Nelson books. Add to that Weber's seemingly ever
growing fascination with meetings and longer and longer books
where less and less happens and I'm on the line.
Safehold: Similar. We started with the story of a brave woman
turned male android and her/his quest with a small circle of
friends to save a world. We ended (for now) with him being
almost just a footnote. I don't think I will be back for the
next arc.
FM Busby, the Demu series. One great book, one good book, and
one WTF book. If there had been a book four, I don't think I
would have bought it.
What are your examples?

Ringworld?

I'd say Xanth, but the problem there is actually the exact
opposite: All books after the first are essentially identical.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Joe Pfeiffer]

Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
I'd say Xanth, but the problem there is actually the exact
opposite: All books after the first are essentially identical.

Not quite. There were a bunch of them that were terrific for us
incomplete souls who love puns (and really didn't have much else to
recommend them), and then he made a conscious decision to cut back on
them (I don't remember the book, but I do remember the author's note
about it). A couple of boring books that tried to have actual, you
know, plot; then he went back to the puns but somehow the spirit had
been lost.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Post by Joe Pfeiffer

Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
I'd say Xanth, but the problem there is actually the exact
opposite: All books after the first are essentially identical.

Not quite. There were a bunch of them that were terrific for us
incomplete souls who love puns (and really didn't have much else
to recommend them), and then he made a conscious decision to cut
back on them (I don't remember the book, but I do remember the
author's note about it). A couple of boring books that tried to
have actual, you know, plot; then he went back to the puns but
somehow the spirit had been lost.

That would have occured long, long, long after I gave up on Xanth.
So, after about the fourth book or so.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[David Johnston]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Honor harrington: Don't make Kirk an admiral. I'm still hanging in,
but there's a reason there are more Hornblower books than Lord Nelson
books. Add to that Weber's seemingly ever growing fascination with
meetings and longer and longer books where less and less happens and
I'm on the line.

I find the books that don't have the undead Mary Sue in them still work
for me. Serious, she should be dead and we should be reading about her
children now.

[Dimensional Traveler]

Post by David Johnston

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Honor harrington: Don't make Kirk an admiral. I'm still hanging in,
but there's a reason there are more Hornblower books than Lord Nelson
books. Add to that Weber's seemingly ever growing fascination with
meetings and longer and longer books where less and less happens and
I'm on the line.

I find the books that don't have the undead Mary Sue in them still work
for me. Serious, she should be dead and we should be reading about her
children now.

That was originally Weber's plan apparently.

[Garrett Wollman]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
It happens. You latch onto a series and follow every new book
eagerly. Then gradually it seems that the elements you loved
about the series start leaching out of it. You keep going, hoping
for a turnaround that never quite comes, then finally the new book
comes out, and you think: Um, maybe not.

Reaching back pretty far in my history, but Julian May's "Galactic
Milieu" trilogy took a turn that was so much not like it was
foreshadowed very early on in JACK THE BODILESS that I came close to
stopping there. (Foreshadowed in previous books connected to but not
part of the series, obviously, since JtB was the first book.) I
barely made it through DIAMOND MASK and although I own MAGNIFICAT
(it's sitting there on the shelf taunting me even now) I've never
bothered to read it.

I don't begrudge authors "the right to have a better idea", as Bujold
put it, but I think when you've led people to expect one thing for a
decade, and then deliver something rather different, the audience has
a right to be irritated nonetheless -- particularly if it feels like
the new plot twist undermines a lot of reading investment in the
previous work.

-GAWollman

[Steve Coltrin]

begin fnord

[A]lthough I own MAGNIFICAT (it's sitting there on the shelf
taunting me even now) I've never bothered to read it.

_Magnificat_ is my go-to example of "wanting an ending but not knowing
how to stick the landing". (As opposed to almost all Stephenson, which
is "wanting to stop but not being interested in ending".)

[Robert Woodward]

Post by Steve Coltrin
begin fnord

[A]lthough I own MAGNIFICAT (it's sitting there on the shelf
taunting me even now) I've never bothered to read it.

_Magnificat_ is my go-to example of "wanting an ending but not knowing
how to stick the landing". (As opposed to almost all Stephenson, which
is "wanting to stop but not being interested in ending".)

I had read the _Pliocene Exile_ series; I knew what was going to happen
in _Magnificat_; it was a Singularity. True, not the one that Vernor
Vinge wrote about, but it still was one. For that reason, I read it,
hoping that she could write it successfully, but not really expecting it.

[Joe Pfeiffer]

The Matthew Swift series by Kate Griffin.

The first book in the series was great; unfortunately, the later books
continued to be too much of "Matthew bleeds his way through another
adventure, miraculously surviving yet again".

And then, somehow, the series morphed into a weird pseudo-comedy about
somebody doing a support group for people with magical powers. Huh?

[Don Bruder]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
It happens. You latch onto a series and follow every new book
eagerly. Then gradually it seems that the elements you loved
about the series start leaching out of it. You keep going, hoping
for a turnaround that never quite comes, then finally the new book
comes out, and you think: Um, maybe not.
Kim Harrison's Rachael Morgan books. They started out focused on
a three person security/investigation team: Rachel, the first person,
flighty and judgement lacking witch, Ivy the hypercompetent but
damaged and volitile vampire and Jenks, the solid family-man and
backup guy extrodinare pixie, and the focus of the books seemed to
be on the tense and possibly romantic relationship between Rachael
and Ivy, then we gradually started to wander and Ivy dropped almost
completely from the storyline, and we got a long series of self generated
messes from Rachel.. I have to admit that while I have the last book,
I have not got around to reading it, and it's not getting any higher
in my SBR.
Gor: Perhaps the qintessential example. Started as a competent ERB
knock off, with maybe a bit more sex than ERB could get away with
becuse, 70s. Then things took a turn, and I thought it was some sort
of arc that would lead back to sanity after the complete deconstruction
of the hero, but that turn never came. Things stayed entertaining enough
through the defense of Port Kar, but after that, the turn became the
story, and I dropped out.
Honor harrington: Don't make Kirk an admiral. I'm still hanging in,
but there's a reason there are more Hornblower books than Lord Nelson
books. Add to that Weber's seemingly ever growing fascination with
meetings and longer and longer books where less and less happens and
I'm on the line.
Safehold: Similar. We started with the story of a brave woman turned
male android and her/his quest with a small circle of friends to save
a world. We ended (for now) with him being almost just a footnote.
I don't think I will be back for the next arc.
FM Busby, the Demu series. One great book, one good book, and one WTF
book. If there had been a book four, I don't think I would have bought it.
What are your examples?

Stirling's Emberverse/Change series. Started out good
post-apoc/alt-hist/SF, took a left turn into mystical crap for a while,
then just plain gave up and took a dive into 100% pure SCA-wankery of
the worst and (wordiest possible - how many times does a two-pages-worth
color-by-color description of someone's coat of arms *REALLY* need to be
repeated?) kind.

[Richard Hershberger]

Post by Don Bruder
Stirling's Emberverse/Change series. Started out good
post-apoc/alt-hist/SF, took a left turn into mystical crap for a while,
then just plain gave up and took a dive into 100% pure SCA-wankery of
the worst and (wordiest possible - how many times does a two-pages-worth
color-by-color description of someone's coat of arms *REALLY* need to be
repeated?) kind.

Especially since heraldry has a specialized vocabulary and syntax specifically designed to produce a concise description of the coat. As I recall, Poul Anderson used it to good effect on occasion.

But really, I have a very low tolerance for SCA-wankery, and did during the two decades of my life when I was an active and enthusiastic participant. The genre is too much like watching someone masturbate. If that is your thing, go for it! But it isn't mine.

I gave up on the Emberverse, and Stirling in general, after reading a book where whosits was walking across country, with the entire book taking him about halfway. Travelogues are another genre I never really cared for.

Richard R. Hershberger

[James Nicoll]

Post by Richard Hershberger

Post by Don Bruder
Stirling's Emberverse/Change series. Started out good
post-apoc/alt-hist/SF, took a left turn into mystical crap for a while,
then just plain gave up and took a dive into 100% pure SCA-wankery of
the worst and (wordiest possible - how many times does a two-pages-worth
color-by-color description of someone's coat of arms *REALLY* need to be
repeated?) kind.

Especially since heraldry has a specialized vocabulary and syntax
specifically designed to produce a concise description of the coat. As
I recall, Poul Anderson used it to good effect on occasion.
But really, I have a very low tolerance for SCA-wankery, and did during
the two decades of my life when I was an active and enthusiastic
participant. The genre is too much like watching someone masturbate.
If that is your thing, go for it! But it isn't mine.

His pulp Venus book has an aside about how a habitable Venus meant
the total collapse of effete litfic and the final triumph of manly
virile SF that made me wonder just how sad he perceives his fans to
be.

Post by Richard Hershberger
I gave up on the Emberverse, and Stirling in general, after reading a
book where whosits was walking across country, with the entire book
taking him about halfway. Travelogues are another genre I never really
cared for.

You will want to avoid the TV show LOST, which was made up of one part
trying to make Chris Carter look like a master of long term world building
to one part walking from one part of the island to the other and back
again, over and over.

[Richard Hershberger]

Post by James Nicoll

Post by Richard Hershberger

Post by Don Bruder
Stirling's Emberverse/Change series. Started out good
post-apoc/alt-hist/SF, took a left turn into mystical crap for a while,
then just plain gave up and took a dive into 100% pure SCA-wankery of
the worst and (wordiest possible - how many times does a two-pages-worth
color-by-color description of someone's coat of arms *REALLY* need to be
repeated?) kind.

Especially since heraldry has a specialized vocabulary and syntax
specifically designed to produce a concise description of the coat. As
I recall, Poul Anderson used it to good effect on occasion.
But really, I have a very low tolerance for SCA-wankery, and did during
the two decades of my life when I was an active and enthusiastic
participant. The genre is too much like watching someone masturbate.
If that is your thing, go for it! But it isn't mine.

His pulp Venus book has an aside about how a habitable Venus meant
the total collapse of effete litfic and the final triumph of manly
virile SF that made me wonder just how sad he perceives his fans to
be.

Post by Richard Hershberger
I gave up on the Emberverse, and Stirling in general, after reading a
book where whosits was walking across country, with the entire book
taking him about halfway. Travelogues are another genre I never really
cared for.

You will want to avoid the TV show LOST, which was made up of one part
trying to make Chris Carter look like a master of long term world building
to one part walking from one part of the island to the other and back
again, over and over.

I made it about fifteen minutes into the first episode and turned it off. Nothing I have read about the series since has made me reconsider.

Richard R. Hershberger

[Will in New Haven]

Post by Richard Hershberger

Post by James Nicoll

Post by Richard Hershberger

Post by Don Bruder
Stirling's Emberverse/Change series. Started out good
post-apoc/alt-hist/SF, took a left turn into mystical crap for a while,
then just plain gave up and took a dive into 100% pure SCA-wankery of
the worst and (wordiest possible - how many times does a two-pages-worth
color-by-color description of someone's coat of arms *REALLY* need to be
repeated?) kind.

Especially since heraldry has a specialized vocabulary and syntax
specifically designed to produce a concise description of the coat. As
I recall, Poul Anderson used it to good effect on occasion.
But really, I have a very low tolerance for SCA-wankery, and did during
the two decades of my life when I was an active and enthusiastic
participant. The genre is too much like watching someone masturbate.
If that is your thing, go for it! But it isn't mine.

His pulp Venus book has an aside about how a habitable Venus meant
the total collapse of effete litfic and the final triumph of manly
virile SF that made me wonder just how sad he perceives his fans to
be.

Post by Richard Hershberger
I gave up on the Emberverse, and Stirling in general, after reading a
book where whosits was walking across country, with the entire book
taking him about halfway. Travelogues are another genre I never really
cared for.

You will want to avoid the TV show LOST, which was made up of one part
trying to make Chris Carter look like a master of long term world building
to one part walking from one part of the island to the other and back
again, over and over.

I made it about fifteen minutes into the first episode and turned it off. Nothing I have read about the series since has made me reconsider.

Completely off-topic, did you watch "Pitch" and are you sorry it is gone.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

On Tuesday, April 25, 2017 at 9:59:55 AM UTC-4, James Nicoll

Post by Juho Julkunen
In article

On Monday, April 24, 2017 at 9:58:07 AM UTC-4, Don Bruder

Post by Don Bruder
Stirling's Emberverse/Change series. Started out good
post-apoc/alt-hist/SF, took a left turn into mystical crap
for a while, then just plain gave up and took a dive into
100% pure SCA-wankery of the worst and (wordiest possible -
how many times does a two-pages-worth color-by-color
description of someone's coat of arms *REALLY* need to be
repeated?) kind.

Especially since heraldry has a specialized vocabulary and
syntax specifically designed to produce a concise description
of the coat. As I recall, Poul Anderson used it to good
effect on occasion.
But really, I have a very low tolerance for SCA-wankery, and
did during the two decades of my life when I was an active and
enthusiastic participant. The genre is too much like watching
someone masturbate. If that is your thing, go for it! But it
isn't mine.

His pulp Venus book has an aside about how a habitable Venus
meant the total collapse of effete litfic and the final triumph
of manly virile SF that made me wonder just how sad he
perceives his fans to be.

I gave up on the Emberverse, and Stirling in general, after
reading a book where whosits was walking across country, with
the entire book taking him about halfway. Travelogues are
another genre I never really cared for.

You will want to avoid the TV show LOST, which was made up of
one part trying to make Chris Carter look like a master of long
term world building to one part walking from one part of the
island to the other and back again, over and over.

I made it about fifteen minutes into the first episode and
turned it off. Nothing I have read about the series since has
made me reconsider.

I didn't even make it through the first commercial before I
completely tuned it out. With never a single twinge of regret.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Don Bruder]

Post by James Nicoll

Post by Richard Hershberger

Post by Don Bruder
Stirling's Emberverse/Change series. Started out good
post-apoc/alt-hist/SF, took a left turn into mystical crap for a while,
then just plain gave up and took a dive into 100% pure SCA-wankery of
the worst and (wordiest possible - how many times does a two-pages-worth
color-by-color description of someone's coat of arms *REALLY* need to be
repeated?) kind.

Especially since heraldry has a specialized vocabulary and syntax
specifically designed to produce a concise description of the coat. As
I recall, Poul Anderson used it to good effect on occasion.
But really, I have a very low tolerance for SCA-wankery, and did during
the two decades of my life when I was an active and enthusiastic
participant. The genre is too much like watching someone masturbate.
If that is your thing, go for it! But it isn't mine.

His pulp Venus book has an aside about how a habitable Venus meant
the total collapse of effete litfic and the final triumph of manly
virile SF that made me wonder just how sad he perceives his fans to
be.

Post by Richard Hershberger
I gave up on the Emberverse, and Stirling in general, after reading a
book where whosits was walking across country, with the entire book
taking him about halfway. Travelogues are another genre I never really
cared for.

You will want to avoid the TV show LOST, which was made up of one part
trying to make Chris Carter look like a master of long term world building
to one part walking from one part of the island to the other and back
again, over and over.

When Lost was in "first run" mode, I deliberately skipped the first
three seasons, since I knew that work was going to cause frequent "Damn,
missed it" scheduling conflicts (at the time I didn't own a VCR or DVR)
and the hype absolutely *REEKED* of "miss one episode and you'll have no
chance at all of ever figuring out what the hell is going on" syndrome.
Sort of a "soap opera in reverse".

So comes season four, and I'm flipping through the channels, and bump
into a pre-season teaser/recap/catch-up show that slid into season 4
episode 1, and I thought "Wow, this looks like it's actually pretty
good. That was just about the time torrenting TV shows was starting to
get some real traction, and I went out and found a place that had the
whole "series-to-date" package sitting there. Needless to say, I grabbed
it, and binge-watched the first three seasons. It took me about halfway
through season 1 to decide "They're not Lost - they're all dead and/or
dying, and we're watching their dying thoughts. Or what they're
experiencing in purgatory, or limbo, or similar." However, since it was
a fairly pleasant ride, I "went along" - And can't deny that I mostly
enjoyed it. It made me think a LOT of the "Myst" and "Riven" games. I
Finally got caught up, and followed to the end.

I think it was season 5 when Carter & Co. started *REALLY* talking
online, in particular, saying outright "No, they're not dead or in limbo
- just wait - you'll be in for a great surprise..."

And of course, as we all know, the final episode showed us that my
dead/dying/last seconds/limbo guess had been absolutely correct. <sigh>
What a letdown.

[Dimensional Traveler]

Post by Don Bruder

Post by James Nicoll

Post by Richard Hershberger

Post by Don Bruder
Stirling's Emberverse/Change series. Started out good
post-apoc/alt-hist/SF, took a left turn into mystical crap for a while,
then just plain gave up and took a dive into 100% pure SCA-wankery of
the worst and (wordiest possible - how many times does a two-pages-worth
color-by-color description of someone's coat of arms *REALLY* need to be
repeated?) kind.

Especially since heraldry has a specialized vocabulary and syntax
specifically designed to produce a concise description of the coat. As
I recall, Poul Anderson used it to good effect on occasion.
But really, I have a very low tolerance for SCA-wankery, and did during
the two decades of my life when I was an active and enthusiastic
participant. The genre is too much like watching someone masturbate.
If that is your thing, go for it! But it isn't mine.

His pulp Venus book has an aside about how a habitable Venus meant
the total collapse of effete litfic and the final triumph of manly
virile SF that made me wonder just how sad he perceives his fans to
be.

Post by Richard Hershberger
I gave up on the Emberverse, and Stirling in general, after reading a
book where whosits was walking across country, with the entire book
taking him about halfway. Travelogues are another genre I never really
cared for.

You will want to avoid the TV show LOST, which was made up of one part
trying to make Chris Carter look like a master of long term world building
to one part walking from one part of the island to the other and back
again, over and over.

When Lost was in "first run" mode, I deliberately skipped the first
three seasons, since I knew that work was going to cause frequent "Damn,
missed it" scheduling conflicts (at the time I didn't own a VCR or DVR)
and the hype absolutely *REEKED* of "miss one episode and you'll have no
chance at all of ever figuring out what the hell is going on" syndrome.
Sort of a "soap opera in reverse".
So comes season four, and I'm flipping through the channels, and bump
into a pre-season teaser/recap/catch-up show that slid into season 4
episode 1, and I thought "Wow, this looks like it's actually pretty
good. That was just about the time torrenting TV shows was starting to
get some real traction, and I went out and found a place that had the
whole "series-to-date" package sitting there. Needless to say, I grabbed
it, and binge-watched the first three seasons. It took me about halfway
through season 1 to decide "They're not Lost - they're all dead and/or
dying, and we're watching their dying thoughts. Or what they're
experiencing in purgatory, or limbo, or similar." However, since it was
a fairly pleasant ride, I "went along" - And can't deny that I mostly
enjoyed it. It made me think a LOT of the "Myst" and "Riven" games. I
Finally got caught up, and followed to the end.
I think it was season 5 when Carter & Co. started *REALLY* talking
online, in particular, saying outright "No, they're not dead or in limbo
- just wait - you'll be in for a great surprise..."
And of course, as we all know, the final episode showed us that my
dead/dying/last seconds/limbo guess had been absolutely correct. <sigh>
What a letdown.

Pretty much EVERYTHING Cruze and Lindorf said about 'Lost' was a lie.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Post by Don Bruder
And of course, as we all know, the final episode showed us that
my dead/dying/last seconds/limbo guess had been absolutely
correct. <sigh> What a letdown.

My mother would not let me watch her soap operas with her. Threatened
me with dire consequences if I even walked through the room while
they were one. Because you see, there was this incident involving her
favorite soap. . .

I didn't watch the show, more than in passing during the summer when
school was out. I had a vague idea who the characters were. So one
day I was walking through the living room, just in time to see
everybody's favorite villian lying on the floor, dead, in a pool of
his own blood. I quipped, "Well, that's not him, that's his identical
twin brother nobody knew he had." and walked out. It was obvious to
me - they are *never* going to kill off the most popular hated
villian.

And you can guess how it turned out, a few days later.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Gene Wirchenko]

On Wed, 26 Apr 2017 11:07:04 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy

Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy

Post by Don Bruder
And of course, as we all know, the final episode showed us that
my dead/dying/last seconds/limbo guess had been absolutely
correct. <sigh> What a letdown.

My mother would not let me watch her soap operas with her. Threatened
me with dire consequences if I even walked through the room while
they were one. Because you see, there was this incident involving her
favorite soap. . .
I didn't watch the show, more than in passing during the summer when
school was out. I had a vague idea who the characters were. So one
day I was walking through the living room, just in time to see
everybody's favorite villian lying on the floor, dead, in a pool of
his own blood. I quipped, "Well, that's not him, that's his identical
twin brother nobody knew he had." and walked out. It was obvious to
me - they are *never* going to kill off the most popular hated
villian.
And you can guess how it turned out, a few days later.

Wow! You would think that you had done the killing.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Post by Gene Wirchenko
On Wed, 26 Apr 2017 11:07:04 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying

Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy

Post by Don Bruder
And of course, as we all know, the final episode showed us
that my dead/dying/last seconds/limbo guess had been
absolutely correct. <sigh> What a letdown.

My mother would not let me watch her soap operas with her.
Threatened me with dire consequences if I even walked through
the room while they were one. Because you see, there was this
incident involving her favorite soap. . .
I didn't watch the show, more than in passing during the summer
when school was out. I had a vague idea who the characters were.
So one day I was walking through the living room, just in time
to see everybody's favorite villian lying on the floor, dead, in
a pool of his own blood. I quipped, "Well, that's not him,
that's his identical twin brother nobody knew he had." and
walked out. It was obvious to me - they are *never* going to
kill off the most popular hated villian.
And you can guess how it turned out, a few days later.

Wow! You would think that you had done the killing.

Well, I killed that (utterly predictable, formulaic) story line, to
be sure.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Default User]

Post by Don Bruder
And of course, as we all know, the final episode showed us that my
dead/dying/last seconds/limbo guess had been absolutely correct. <sigh>
What a letdown.

I don't believe that's accurate. The events on the island supposedly all happened. The "Flash Sideways" was a form of limbo, but not most of the episodes.


Brian

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by Default User

Post by Don Bruder
And of course, as we all know, the final episode showed us that my
dead/dying/last seconds/limbo guess had been absolutely correct. <sigh>
What a letdown.

I don't believe that's accurate. The events on the island supposedly all
happened. The "Flash Sideways" was a form of limbo, but not most of the
episodes.
Brian

http://www.basicinstructions.net/basic-instructions1/2016/10/4/how-to-discuss-a-television-show-with-someone-who-hasnt-seen.html-1

http://www.basicinstructions.net/basic-instructions/2010/5/19/how-to-discuss-lost.html

[Don Bruder]

Post by Default User

Post by Don Bruder
And of course, as we all know, the final episode showed us that my
dead/dying/last seconds/limbo guess had been absolutely correct. <sigh>
What a letdown.

I don't believe that's accurate. The events on the island supposedly all
happened. The "Flash Sideways" was a form of limbo, but not most of the
episodes.
Brian

Believe as you like. Everybody waiting in a mystical church-like
building for the Doc to "catch up" before they all "take that final
step" is pretty blatantly "They've all been dead and sitting in the
waiting room of eternity."

What burned me most was the total lack of any *REAL* wrap-up/explanation
of just WTF the island was all about. Lots of hinting, little or no
"This is what's really going on".

Basically, they had the beginnings of a decent story, but then they
veered off into la-la-land when they realized they didn't have the first
clue how to actually wrap it up properly.

[Moriarty]

Post by Don Bruder

Post by Default User

Post by Don Bruder
And of course, as we all know, the final episode showed us that my
dead/dying/last seconds/limbo guess had been absolutely correct. <sigh>
What a letdown.

I don't believe that's accurate. The events on the island supposedly all
happened. The "Flash Sideways" was a form of limbo, but not most of the
episodes.
Brian

Believe as you like. Everybody waiting in a mystical church-like
building for the Doc to "catch up" before they all "take that final
step" is pretty blatantly "They've all been dead and sitting in the
waiting room of eternity."
What burned me most was the total lack of any *REAL* wrap-up/explanation
of just WTF the island was all about. Lots of hinting, little or no
"This is what's really going on".
Basically, they had the beginnings of a decent story, but then they
veered off into la-la-land when they realized they didn't have the first
clue how to actually wrap it up properly.

Not unlike Battlestar Galactice. We were solemnly informed at the start of every episode that the Cylons "had a plan". Unfortunately, it became obvious as time went on that not only did the Cylons not have a plan, the writers didn't have one either.

-Moriarty

[Johnny1A]

Post by Moriarty

Post by Don Bruder

Post by Default User

Post by Don Bruder
And of course, as we all know, the final episode showed us that my
dead/dying/last seconds/limbo guess had been absolutely correct. <sigh>
What a letdown.

I don't believe that's accurate. The events on the island supposedly all
happened. The "Flash Sideways" was a form of limbo, but not most of the
episodes.
Brian

Believe as you like. Everybody waiting in a mystical church-like
building for the Doc to "catch up" before they all "take that final
step" is pretty blatantly "They've all been dead and sitting in the
waiting room of eternity."
What burned me most was the total lack of any *REAL* wrap-up/explanation
of just WTF the island was all about. Lots of hinting, little or no
"This is what's really going on".
Basically, they had the beginnings of a decent story, but then they
veered off into la-la-land when they realized they didn't have the first
clue how to actually wrap it up properly.

Not unlike Battlestar Galactice. We were solemnly informed at the start of every episode that the Cylons "had a plan". Unfortunately, it became obvious as time went on that not only did the Cylons not have a plan, the writers didn't have one either.
-Moriarty

I think a lot the 'plan' on the part of the writers was simply to repudiate BSGo.

[Johnny1A]

Post by Don Bruder
Believe as you like. Everybody waiting in a mystical church-like
building for the Doc to "catch up" before they all "take that final
step" is pretty blatantly "They've all been dead and sitting in the
waiting room of eternity."
What burned me most was the total lack of any *REAL* wrap-up/explanation
of just WTF the island was all about. Lots of hinting, little or no
"This is what's really going on".
Basically, they had the beginnings of a decent story, but then they
veered off into la-la-land when they realized they didn't have the first
clue how to actually wrap it up properly.

J.J. Abrams is _infamous_ for 'strong starts' that either fizzle out or take weird turns toward the end, for this reason or that. _Alias_, for ex, just compare season 1 and season 4 or 5 for an example.

[h***@gmail.com]

Post by Johnny1A

Post by Don Bruder
Believe as you like. Everybody waiting in a mystical church-like
building for the Doc to "catch up" before they all "take that final
step" is pretty blatantly "They've all been dead and sitting in the
waiting room of eternity."
What burned me most was the total lack of any *REAL* wrap-up/explanation
of just WTF the island was all about. Lots of hinting, little or no
"This is what's really going on".
Basically, they had the beginnings of a decent story, but then they
veered off into la-la-land when they realized they didn't have the first
clue how to actually wrap it up properly.

J.J. Abrams is _infamous_ for 'strong starts' that either fizzle out or take weird turns toward the end, for this reason or that. _Alias_, for ex, just compare season 1 and season 4 or 5 for an example.

Could be worse, it could be Heroes...

[Dimensional Traveler]

Post by h***@gmail.com

Post by Johnny1A

Post by Don Bruder
Believe as you like. Everybody waiting in a mystical church-like
building for the Doc to "catch up" before they all "take that final
step" is pretty blatantly "They've all been dead and sitting in the
waiting room of eternity."
What burned me most was the total lack of any *REAL* wrap-up/explanation
of just WTF the island was all about. Lots of hinting, little or no
"This is what's really going on".
Basically, they had the beginnings of a decent story, but then they
veered off into la-la-land when they realized they didn't have the first
clue how to actually wrap it up properly.

J.J. Abrams is _infamous_ for 'strong starts' that either fizzle out or take weird turns toward the end, for this reason or that. _Alias_, for ex, just compare season 1 and season 4 or 5 for an example.

Could be worse, it could be Heroes...

Abrams lends his name to TV projects for the PR value. Sometimes he
helps set up the premise and is actively involved in the first few weeks
or episodes. Then he moves on to the next project, leaving the previous
project to underlings who have their own ideas on how to continue. But
Abrams himself generally has no idea where to take the initial concept.
He basically just says "Wouldn't be it neat if...." and then leaves it
to others to make it work or not, usually not.

[Johnny1A]

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Johnny1A
J.J. Abrams is _infamous_ for 'strong starts' that either fizzle out or take weird turns toward the end, for this reason or that. _Alias_, for ex, just compare season 1 and season 4 or 5 for an example.

Abrams lends his name to TV projects for the PR value. Sometimes he
helps set up the premise and is actively involved in the first few weeks
or episodes. Then he moves on to the next project, leaving the previous
project to underlings who have their own ideas on how to continue. But
Abrams himself generally has no idea where to take the initial concept.
He basically just says "Wouldn't be it neat if...." and then leaves it
to others to make it work or not, usually not.

Interesting. I have _heard_ the Irwin Allen was like that. From which I've heard, he was very good at coming up with _settings_ and _premises_ and then had no idea what to do with them, or how to tell a good story from a bad.

For ex, he helped create the old _Voyage to the Bottom of the Sea_ series, but apparently he couldn't tell any difference between the better episodes or the rubber-suit monster-of-the week, either.

[Default User]

Post by Don Bruder

Post by Default User
I don't believe that's accurate. The events on the island supposedly all
happened. The "Flash Sideways" was a form of limbo, but not most of the
episodes.

Believe as you like. Everybody waiting in a mystical church-like
building for the Doc to "catch up" before they all "take that final
step" is pretty blatantly "They've all been dead and sitting in the
waiting room of eternity."

Yes, but not as a result of the plane crash. He died as was shown, on the Island after all those events happened. Then the people that died of various reasons at various timed gathered and "moved on" together.

It wasn't great, and the explanation of the "flash sideways" was kind of hokey, but it's not the case that the events on the Island were the people being dead from the crash and in some sort of Limbo.

For your other comments, I can't really disagree. Too many questions unanswered, ultimately.


Brian

[a425couple]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
It happens. You latch onto a series and follow every new book
eagerly. Then gradually it seems that the elements you loved
about the series start leaching out of it. You keep going, hoping
for a turnaround that never quite comes, then finally the new book
comes out, and you think: Um, maybe not.
What are your examples?

For me, it was definitely any after the original & great
"Rendezvous with Rama" by Arthur Clarke.
Professional, sane, trained people going about their
assignments to explore one of the greatest things humans
could ever find.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rendezvous_with_Rama

Then came, "Rama II" by Gentry Lee (& silly credit to Clarke).
Whacko, egotistical, jealous, greedy, back-stabbing, murderous,
mutinous losers, that could not get past any reasonable
employee screening process head off in charge of human's
great endeavor.
Not even a proper chain of command!
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rama_II_(novel)
I could only with great pain push on to cover 177 pages.

"Books in the series
Clarke paired up with Gentry Lee for the remainder of the series.
Lee did the actual writing, while Clarke read and made editing
suggestions.[9] The focus and style of the last three novels are quite
different from those of the original with an increased emphasis on
characterisation and more clearly portrayed heroes and villains, rather
than Clarke's dedicated professionals. These later books did not receive
the same critical acclaim and awards as the original."

[Anthony Nance]

Post by a425couple

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
It happens. You latch onto a series and follow every new book
eagerly. Then gradually it seems that the elements you loved
about the series start leaching out of it. You keep going, hoping
for a turnaround that never quite comes, then finally the new book
comes out, and you think: Um, maybe not.
What are your examples?

For me, it was definitely any after the original & great
"Rendezvous with Rama" by Arthur Clarke.
Professional, sane, trained people going about their
assignments to explore one of the greatest things humans
could ever find.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rendezvous_with_Rama
<snip>

Yeah, Rama was one of two that came to my mind quickly.

The other was Zelazny's Amber series, as (for me) books 6-10
represent a great change from books 1-5.

Later, Clarke's 2001 series came to mind, as well as
Asimov's blending of Foundation with Robots, if that counts.

Tony

[j***@gmail.com]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
It happens. You latch onto a series and follow every new book
eagerly. Then gradually it seems that the elements you loved
about the series start leaching out of it. You keep going, hoping
for a turnaround that never quite comes, then finally the new book
comes out, and you think: Um, maybe not.
Kim Harrison's Rachael Morgan books. They started out focused on
a three person security/investigation team: Rachel, the first person,
flighty and judgement lacking witch, Ivy the hypercompetent but
damaged and volitile vampire and Jenks, the solid family-man and
backup guy extrodinare pixie, and the focus of the books seemed to
be on the tense and possibly romantic relationship between Rachael
and Ivy, then we gradually started to wander and Ivy dropped almost
completely from the storyline, and we got a long series of self generated
messes from Rachel.. I have to admit that while I have the last book,
I have not got around to reading it, and it's not getting any higher
in my SBR.
Gor: Perhaps the qintessential example. Started as a competent ERB
knock off, with maybe a bit more sex than ERB could get away with
becuse, 70s. Then things took a turn, and I thought it was some sort
of arc that would lead back to sanity after the complete deconstruction
of the hero, but that turn never came. Things stayed entertaining enough
through the defense of Port Kar, but after that, the turn became the
story, and I dropped out.
Honor harrington: Don't make Kirk an admiral. I'm still hanging in,
but there's a reason there are more Hornblower books than Lord Nelson
books. Add to that Weber's seemingly ever growing fascination with
meetings and longer and longer books where less and less happens and
I'm on the line.
What are your examples?
--

Not _nearly_ as bad as some of the above examples, at least not yet, but I am getting worried about Jim Butcher's _Dresden Files_ series.

I found the DF series shaky in the first two novels, but with potential, and then it 'jelled' in the third book, _Grave Peril_. From there on, the series got better and better, combining the tropes of urban fantasy, detective novels, and humor with a deft hand and ever-increasing skill. He painted in hints a large backstory and background for his hero, the detective/wizard Harry Copperfield Blackstone Dresden, and a big complicated universe around him and his Chicago-based activities.

Supposedly, the series is supposed to run to 20-24 books or so, the author has varied on that a bit as he works out his plans, culminating in a big trilogy at the end. For about a decade, the series went on, getting better and better as it went, but then a few years ago I sensed a change, and since then, the books have been...well, not _worse_, exactly. But the upward improvement has stalled, and the themes are different and seem to be getting ever more different.

There was a mid-series book called _Changes_ that consciously invoked that theme, that the hero's life was about to change in basic ways, and it did. But the changes in tone and theme I had detected began a book or two earlier.

The most glaring single instance involves the hero's mother. I won't spoiler warning it, that book has been out for years, read at your own risk. Anyway, throughout the first 9 books or so, the hero (whose mother died in childbirth) has received various indications that his wizard mother was _Not A Good Person_, the sources varied but all pointed the same way. Apparently she had reformed/repented just before her death, but before that she had been into some pretty Bad Stuff.

But then came an unexplained change in emphasis, all of a sudden the hints were that she had been some kind of misguided idealist, or well-intended extremist, and there was no explanation for the change.

Another shift, this time in story tone: the early books are full of magic, but at the same time have a gritty feel, they're set in Chicago, and the protagonist deals with traffic jams, street gangs, and the usual headaches of urban life as well as magical threats and supernatural entities. He has money problems, sometimes has trouble with the cops and sometimes works with them, his surroundings feel real.

The last few books, though, have been much more 'fantastical' in their tone, and much of the action occurs in _literal_ fairyland. It's a jarring shift, and not one that's been entirely successful, IMHO.

I'm still reading them, but as a said, I'm getting concerned.

[Stephen Graham]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
It happens. You latch onto a series and follow every new book
eagerly. Then gradually it seems that the elements you loved
about the series start leaching out of it. You keep going, hoping
for a turnaround that never quite comes, then finally the new book
comes out, and you think: Um, maybe not.
What are your examples?

For me, it was Mike Moscoe/Shepherd's Society of Humanity-Kris Longknife
series. The series was never great but it was decent enough. I liked the
overall universe. The promise of a protagonist who didn't immediately
ascend to high rank and major command intrigued me. In particular, I
thought the original trilogy was rather fun, though rough-edged.

The first three Kris Longknife novels (Mutineer, Deserter, Defiant) was
reasonable. Then the volumes seemed to switch to two novellas each, not
necessarily well-connected. When the format got back to actual novels,
around Redoubtable, the other problems started surfacing. Kris Longknife
wound up in major commands, even if her rank was comparatively low.
After the maudlin focus on mass or non-sensical deaths in Daring, I was
done with the series. Just not willing to pick up the next volume.

[Steve Coltrin]

begin fnord

Kris Longknife wound up in major commands, even if her rank was
comparatively low. After the maudlin focus on mass

Mass as in E/c^2, or as in go and sin no more?

[Stephen Graham]

Post by Steve Coltrin
begin fnord

Kris Longknife wound up in major commands, even if her rank was
comparatively low. After the maudlin focus on mass

Mass as in E/c^2, or as in go and sin no more?

As in large numbers all at once.

[Richard Hershberger]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>
Honor harrington: Don't make Kirk an admiral.

On the other hand, Hornblower made admiral and the result was a reasonably successful book--not the best of the lot by any means, but not an embarrassment. We could also include his spell as a commodore, since he had a flag captain under him to run the ship and Hornblower was doing admirally-type stuff. That was a bang-up book.

Richard R. Hershberger

[Quadibloc]

Although it's nowhere in the same league, having remained very
entertaining right to the very end, an honorable mention, at least, must
go to the Demon Princes series of Jack Vance, in which said demon
princes changed from aliens (disguised as human) to humans over
the course of the series.

John Savard

[Quadibloc]

As far as the Gor novels are concerned, my recollection is that
they wallowed in male supremacy from the first novel - only the first half
or so of it was "decent ERB-style fantasy". It got worse in the second
book, but there was no drastic turnaround.

John Savard

[Cryptoengineer]

Post by Quadibloc
As far as the Gor novels are concerned, my recollection is that
they wallowed in male supremacy from the first novel - only the first
half or so of it was "decent ERB-style fantasy". It got worse in the
second book, but there was no drastic turnaround.
John Savard

Wouldn't that make it a 'series that changed too little'? Imagine
the drama if there was a feminist revolution, changing the ladies
to doms and the men to their sissyboy slaves...

pt

[Quadibloc]

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Quadibloc
As far as the Gor novels are concerned, my recollection is that
they wallowed in male supremacy from the first novel - only the first
half or so of it was "decent ERB-style fantasy". It got worse in the
second book, but there was no drastic turnaround.

Wouldn't that make it a 'series that changed too little'? Imagine
the drama if there was a feminist revolution, changing the ladies
to doms and the men to their sissyboy slaves...

I'd view _that_ as not making the series any better; it would *still* have
changed too little, from one inequality to another.

Now, if the protagonist had managed to find a way to rip the Priest-Kings'
controlling wires out of his head, and overthrow their tyranny to establish the
rule of Truth, Justice, and the American Way on Gor, so the women would not
rise to supremacy in turn, but to equality - at least equality as it was
understood in America in the 1950s, one wouldn't want to go too far in the
first step, and this is _escapist_ fiction after all...

now, _that_ would be something I'd approve of.

So think of Tarl Cabot as another Flash Gordon.

John Savard

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Quadibloc
As far as the Gor novels are concerned, my recollection is that
they wallowed in male supremacy from the first novel - only the
first half or so of it was "decent ERB-style fantasy". It got
worse in the second book, but there was no drastic turnaround.
John Savard

Wouldn't that make it a 'series that changed too little'?
Imagine the drama if there was a feminist revolution, changing
the ladies to doms and the men to their sissyboy slaves...

I dunno, that sounds like an awful lot of sf these days.

(A lot of television, too.)
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Quadibloc
As far as the Gor novels are concerned, my recollection is that
they wallowed in male supremacy from the first novel - only the
first half or so of it was "decent ERB-style fantasy". It got
worse in the second book, but there was no drastic turnaround.
John Savard

Wouldn't that make it a 'series that changed too little'?
Imagine the drama if there was a feminist revolution, changing
the ladies to doms and the men to their sissyboy slaves...

I dunno, that sounds like an awful lot of sf these days.
(A lot of television, too.)

Okay. Do you know about FREE AMAZONS OF GHOR, a fan-musical by
Randall Garrett and Vicki Ann Heydron? It used to get performed
at Darkover cons. I've seen it twice, and the second time I
snagged a discarded copy of the script.

The plot, if we may dignify it by that name, is as follows:

Back in the day, the Gor books and Marion Zimmer Bradley's
Darkover books were both published by the same house (would that
have been Ace? DAW? I forget), and selling very well.

So....

The EDITOR gathers Norman Gorman and Ms. Bee together and
suggests that they collaborate.

Loud shrieks of "NO!" from both parties.

Their arguments are interspersed by repeated confrontations
between the Chief Barbarian and the Shrinking Maiden, the latter
presently joined by a pack of Free Amazons.

Repeat. Repeat.

Finally the characters themselves interrupt the EDITOR and the
authors, and tell them what *they* want out of a story, which is
to be portrayed as human beings.

Perhaps it will be counted as "fair use" if I quote from the final
aria, sung by the EDITOR:

"About three thousand years ago,r
The Greeks were fond of fighting.
They laid their Trojan neighbors low,
And found it quite exciting.

The story-teller, Homer,
Made his tales of that fight glow,
The people loved each one of them,
And passed them on, and so
It's likely that old Homer made a decent bit of dough!
You've got to make it good to be a seller!"

Tag lines:

"How about SLAVE BOYS OF DIMOVER?"

"NOooooooo!"

"Absolutely not!"

"Maybe next year ...."

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Quadibloc
As far as the Gor novels are concerned, my recollection is
that they wallowed in male supremacy from the first novel -
only the first half or so of it was "decent ERB-style
fantasy". It got worse in the second book, but there was no
drastic turnaround.
John Savard

Wouldn't that make it a 'series that changed too little'?
Imagine the drama if there was a feminist revolution, changing
the ladies to doms and the men to their sissyboy slaves...

I dunno, that sounds like an awful lot of sf these days.
(A lot of television, too.)

Okay. Do you know about FREE AMAZONS OF GHOR, a fan-musical by
Randall Garrett and Vicki Ann Heydron?

No, and from your description, I think I'm glad I don't. I'd have
an irrestiable urge to find a DVD of it to add to my Shelf Of
Terrible Movies.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Quadibloc
As far as the Gor novels are concerned, my recollection is
that they wallowed in male supremacy from the first novel -
only the first half or so of it was "decent ERB-style
fantasy". It got worse in the second book, but there was no
drastic turnaround.
John Savard

Wouldn't that make it a 'series that changed too little'?
Imagine the drama if there was a feminist revolution, changing
the ladies to doms and the men to their sissyboy slaves...

I dunno, that sounds like an awful lot of sf these days.
(A lot of television, too.)

Okay. Do you know about FREE AMAZONS OF GHOR, a fan-musical by
Randall Garrett and Vicki Ann Heydron?

No, and from your description, I think I'm glad I don't. I'd have
an irrestiable urge to find a DVD of it to add to my Shelf Of
Terrible Movies.

If there were a DVD of it, I'd buy it. But AFAIK it's never been
recorded. I don't know if it's even been performed recently.

And it's not terrible; it's funny. And it runs (ISTR) only about
twenty minutes.

[David Johnston]

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Quadibloc
As far as the Gor novels are concerned, my recollection is that
they wallowed in male supremacy from the first novel - only the first
half or so of it was "decent ERB-style fantasy". It got worse in the
second book, but there was no drastic turnaround.
John Savard

Wouldn't that make it a 'series that changed too little'? Imagine
the drama if there was a feminist revolution, changing the ladies
to doms and the men to their sissyboy slaves...

He actually wrote one with a Gorean dom and her "sissyboy" slaves
although she didn't start a revolution.

[Harri Tavaila]

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Quadibloc
As far as the Gor novels are concerned, my recollection is that
they wallowed in male supremacy from the first novel - only the first
half or so of it was "decent ERB-style fantasy". It got worse in the
second book, but there was no drastic turnaround.
John Savard

Wouldn't that make it a 'series that changed too little'? Imagine
the drama if there was a feminist revolution, changing the ladies
to doms and the men to their sissyboy slaves...

This got me to search for a cheap paperback I read about two decades ago
- and it was ancient even then (possibly from 1950's or 1960's). I
thought I knew the title, but it doesn't come up in any database, so I
must be mistaken.

The title I thought I remembered was Encephalitis 42 (the number may be
wrong. It referred to the hospital room of patient zero).

A rapidly spreading form of encephalitis is killing males, females are
immune. A male scientist is evacuated to isolation with his son and he
succeeds in developing a vaccine. This took some time though and the
society is changed for good. Now the males are the "protected property".
End story.

Unfortunately the library I got it from belonged to a foundation that
doesn't have it's catalogues online. Help appreciated.

H Tavaila

[Lynn McGuire]

Post by Harri Tavaila

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Quadibloc
As far as the Gor novels are concerned, my recollection is that
they wallowed in male supremacy from the first novel - only the first
half or so of it was "decent ERB-style fantasy". It got worse in the
second book, but there was no drastic turnaround.
John Savard

Wouldn't that make it a 'series that changed too little'? Imagine
the drama if there was a feminist revolution, changing the ladies
to doms and the men to their sissyboy slaves...

This got me to search for a cheap paperback I read about two decades ago
- and it was ancient even then (possibly from 1950's or 1960's). I
thought I knew the title, but it doesn't come up in any database, so I
must be mistaken.
The title I thought I remembered was Encephalitis 42 (the number may be
wrong. It referred to the hospital room of patient zero).
A rapidly spreading form of encephalitis is killing males, females are
immune. A male scientist is evacuated to isolation with his son and he
succeeds in developing a vaccine. This took some time though and the
society is changed for good. Now the males are the "protected property".
End story.
Unfortunately the library I got it from belonged to a foundation that
doesn't have it's catalogues online. Help appreciated.
H Tavaila

Sounds like a Sliders episode I saw once.

Lynn

[Dimensional Traveler]

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Harri Tavaila

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Quadibloc
As far as the Gor novels are concerned, my recollection is that
they wallowed in male supremacy from the first novel - only the first
half or so of it was "decent ERB-style fantasy". It got worse in the
second book, but there was no drastic turnaround.
John Savard

Wouldn't that make it a 'series that changed too little'? Imagine
the drama if there was a feminist revolution, changing the ladies
to doms and the men to their sissyboy slaves...

This got me to search for a cheap paperback I read about two decades
ago - and it was ancient even then (possibly from 1950's or 1960's). I
thought I knew the title, but it doesn't come up in any database, so I
must be mistaken.
The title I thought I remembered was Encephalitis 42 (the number may
be wrong. It referred to the hospital room of patient zero).
A rapidly spreading form of encephalitis is killing males, females are
immune. A male scientist is evacuated to isolation with his son and he
succeeds in developing a vaccine. This took some time though and the
society is changed for good. Now the males are the "protected
property". End story.
Unfortunately the library I got it from belonged to a foundation that
doesn't have it's catalogues online. Help appreciated.
H Tavaila

Sounds like a Sliders episode I saw once.

And no in vitro fertilization. Made Australia that world's superpower
as I recall.

[Cryptoengineer]

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Harri Tavaila

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Quadibloc
As far as the Gor novels are concerned, my recollection is that
they wallowed in male supremacy from the first novel - only the first
half or so of it was "decent ERB-style fantasy". It got worse in the
second book, but there was no drastic turnaround.
John Savard

Wouldn't that make it a 'series that changed too little'? Imagine
the drama if there was a feminist revolution, changing the ladies
to doms and the men to their sissyboy slaves...

This got me to search for a cheap paperback I read about two decades
ago - and it was ancient even then (possibly from 1950's or 1960's). I
thought I knew the title, but it doesn't come up in any database, so I
must be mistaken.
The title I thought I remembered was Encephalitis 42 (the number may
be wrong. It referred to the hospital room of patient zero).
A rapidly spreading form of encephalitis is killing males, females are
immune. A male scientist is evacuated to isolation with his son and he
succeeds in developing a vaccine. This took some time though and the
society is changed for good. Now the males are the "protected
property". End story.
Unfortunately the library I got it from belonged to a foundation that
doesn't have it's catalogues online. Help appreciated.
H Tavaila

Sounds like a Sliders episode I saw once.

And no in vitro fertilization. Made Australia that world's superpower
as I recall.

I once ran a simulation of this situation - only 1 man is fertile
women 15-30 are too, a man can impregnate 1 woman/day from 13 on....

At first, obviously, we are male-limited. Around 30 years in, we become
female limited, and there's a bottleneck since there's an undersupply
of fertile women. After about 60 years, the population gets back to
normal.

pt

[Dimensional Traveler]

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Harri Tavaila

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Quadibloc
As far as the Gor novels are concerned, my recollection is that
they wallowed in male supremacy from the first novel - only the

first

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Harri Tavaila

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Quadibloc
half or so of it was "decent ERB-style fantasy". It got worse in

the

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Harri Tavaila

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Quadibloc
second book, but there was no drastic turnaround.
John Savard

Wouldn't that make it a 'series that changed too little'? Imagine
the drama if there was a feminist revolution, changing the ladies
to doms and the men to their sissyboy slaves...

This got me to search for a cheap paperback I read about two decades
ago - and it was ancient even then (possibly from 1950's or 1960's).

I

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Harri Tavaila
thought I knew the title, but it doesn't come up in any database, so

I

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Harri Tavaila
must be mistaken.
The title I thought I remembered was Encephalitis 42 (the number may
be wrong. It referred to the hospital room of patient zero).
A rapidly spreading form of encephalitis is killing males, females

are

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Harri Tavaila
immune. A male scientist is evacuated to isolation with his son and

he

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Harri Tavaila
succeeds in developing a vaccine. This took some time though and the
society is changed for good. Now the males are the "protected
property". End story.
Unfortunately the library I got it from belonged to a foundation that
doesn't have it's catalogues online. Help appreciated.
H Tavaila

Sounds like a Sliders episode I saw once.

And no in vitro fertilization. Made Australia that world's superpower
as I recall.

I once ran a simulation of this situation - only 1 man is fertile
women 15-30 are too, a man can impregnate 1 woman/day from 13 on....
At first, obviously, we are male-limited. Around 30 years in, we become
female limited, and there's a bottleneck since there's an undersupply
of fertile women. After about 60 years, the population gets back to
normal.

I think the problem with your model is the "can impregnate 1 woman/day".
How many women per day were you assuming he was coupling with to
achieve that?

[Cryptoengineer]

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Harri Tavaila

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Quadibloc
As far as the Gor novels are concerned, my recollection is that
they wallowed in male supremacy from the first novel - only the

first

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Harri Tavaila

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Quadibloc
half or so of it was "decent ERB-style fantasy". It got worse in

the

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Harri Tavaila

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Quadibloc
second book, but there was no drastic turnaround.
John Savard

Wouldn't that make it a 'series that changed too little'? Imagine
the drama if there was a feminist revolution, changing the ladies
to doms and the men to their sissyboy slaves...

This got me to search for a cheap paperback I read about two
decades ago - and it was ancient even then (possibly from 1950's
or 1960's).

I

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Harri Tavaila
thought I knew the title, but it doesn't come up in any database, so

I

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Harri Tavaila
must be mistaken.
The title I thought I remembered was Encephalitis 42 (the number
may be wrong. It referred to the hospital room of patient zero).
A rapidly spreading form of encephalitis is killing males, females

are

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Harri Tavaila
immune. A male scientist is evacuated to isolation with his son and

he

Post by Dimensional Traveler

Post by Lynn McGuire

Post by Harri Tavaila
succeeds in developing a vaccine. This took some time though and
the society is changed for good. Now the males are the "protected
property". End story.
Unfortunately the library I got it from belonged to a foundation
that doesn't have it's catalogues online. Help appreciated.
H Tavaila

Sounds like a Sliders episode I saw once.

And no in vitro fertilization. Made Australia that world's
superpower as I recall.

I once ran a simulation of this situation - only 1 man is fertile
women 15-30 are too, a man can impregnate 1 woman/day from 13 on....
At first, obviously, we are male-limited. Around 30 years in, we
become female limited, and there's a bottleneck since there's an
undersupply of fertile women. After about 60 years, the population
gets back to normal.

I think the problem with your model is the "can impregnate 1
woman/day".
How many women per day were you assuming he was coupling with to
achieve that?

Nothing unrealistic.

The assumption was that there was universal buy-in to the repopulation
project, and that the males each had 2-3 highly fertile and ovulating
females to service each day.

pt

[Greg Goss]

Post by Lynn McGuire
Sounds like a Sliders episode I saw once.

I was going to say that. I saw the episode, too.

[David Johnston]

Post by Harri Tavaila

Post by Cryptoengineer

Post by Quadibloc
As far as the Gor novels are concerned, my recollection is that
they wallowed in male supremacy from the first novel - only the first
half or so of it was "decent ERB-style fantasy". It got worse in the
second book, but there was no drastic turnaround.
John Savard

Wouldn't that make it a 'series that changed too little'? Imagine
the drama if there was a feminist revolution, changing the ladies
to doms and the men to their sissyboy slaves...

This got me to search for a cheap paperback I read about two decades ago
- and it was ancient even then (possibly from 1950's or 1960's). I
thought I knew the title, but it doesn't come up in any database, so I
must be mistaken.
The title I thought I remembered was Encephalitis 42 (the number may be
wrong. It referred to the hospital room of patient zero).
A rapidly spreading form of encephalitis is killing males, females are
immune. A male scientist is evacuated to isolation with his son and he
succeeds in developing a vaccine. This took some time though and the
society is changed for good. Now the males are the "protected property".
End story.
Unfortunately the library I got it from belonged to a foundation that
doesn't have it's catalogues online. Help appreciated.
H Tavaila

The Virility Factor.

https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1681423.The_Virility_Factor?rating=3

[Quadibloc]

Post by David Johnston

Post by Harri Tavaila
The title I thought I remembered was Encephalitis 42 (the number may be
wrong. It referred to the hospital room of patient zero).
A rapidly spreading form of encephalitis is killing males, females are
immune. A male scientist is evacuated to isolation with his son and he
succeeds in developing a vaccine. This took some time though and the
society is changed for good. Now the males are the "protected property".
End story.
Unfortunately the library I got it from belonged to a foundation that
doesn't have it's catalogues online. Help appreciated.

The Virility Factor.
https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1681423.The_Virility_Factor?rating=3

So 16 is the answer to the great question of Life, the Universe, and
Everything...

John Savard

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Quadibloc
As far as the Gor novels are concerned, my recollection is that
they wallowed in male supremacy from the first novel - only the first half
or so of it was "decent ERB-style fantasy". It got worse in the second
book, but there was no drastic turnaround.

The Other Change of Hobbit, Berkeley's major > only SF bookstore,
refused to stock the Gor novels. They posted one torn-out page
on the wall as an example of why.

[Sjouke Burry]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Quadibloc
As far as the Gor novels are concerned, my recollection is that
they wallowed in male supremacy from the first novel - only the first half
or so of it was "decent ERB-style fantasy". It got worse in the second
book, but there was no drastic turnaround.

The Other Change of Hobbit, Berkeley's major > only SF bookstore,
refused to stock the Gor novels. They posted one torn-out page
on the wall as an example of why.

Please tell us more about that example. :)

[Dimensional Traveler]

Post by Sjouke Burry

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Quadibloc
As far as the Gor novels are concerned, my recollection is that
they wallowed in male supremacy from the first novel - only the first half
or so of it was "decent ERB-style fantasy". It got worse in the second
book, but there was no drastic turnaround.

The Other Change of Hobbit, Berkeley's major > only SF bookstore,
refused to stock the Gor novels. They posted one torn-out page
on the wall as an example of why.

Please tell us more about that example. :)

I've never read any Gor books but I had an ex who did. She described
one scene where the head concubine of the harem takes the "heroine's"
bloody underwear and nails to a wall in the harem to show the rest that
their master has finally subjugated the "heroine".

[Quadibloc]

After reading the first novel, I had hopes that it might shake off the reveling
in a society where women were slaves, and get back to the interesting SF plot -
so I waded through them until the third book, "The Priest-Kings of Gor", where
I thought there would be a chance of getting to the real plot.

It didn't happen, it just got worse and worse, so I did not waste time and
money on further books in the series.

John Savard

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Post by Quadibloc
After reading the first novel, I had hopes that it might shake
off the reveling in a society where women were slaves, and get
back to the interesting SF plot - so I waded through them until
the third book, "The Priest-Kings of Gor", where I thought there
would be a chance of getting to the real plot.

You're assuming that reveling in a society where women are slaves
isn't the real plot.

Moron.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy

Post by Quadibloc
After reading the first novel, I had hopes that it might shake
off the reveling in a society where women were slaves, and get
back to the interesting SF plot - so I waded through them until
the third book, "The Priest-Kings of Gor", where I thought there
would be a chance of getting to the real plot.

You're assuming that reveling in a society where women are slaves
isn't the real plot.

Well, that was certainly Norman's plot.

If you can call that a plot.

As any fule kno by now, Gor wasn't SF; it wasn't even fantasy
(strictu sensu); it was soft-core porn designed to leach away the
allowances of teenaged males who couldn't get at the real thing.
Once porn of a much higher Mohs scale became available online,
Gor stopped selling and stopped getting published, and Norman
has been in a sulk ever since.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy

Post by Quadibloc
After reading the first novel, I had hopes that it might shake
off the reveling in a society where women were slaves, and get
back to the interesting SF plot - so I waded through them until
the third book, "The Priest-Kings of Gor", where I thought there
would be a chance of getting to the real plot.

You're assuming that reveling in a society where women are slaves
isn't the real plot.

Well, that was certainly Norman's plot.
If you can call that a plot.

Sadly, it's more plot than many books have.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Ahasuerus]

On Friday, April 28, 2017 at 7:30:06 PM UTC-4, Dorothy J Heydt wrote:
[snip]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Once porn of a much higher Mohs scale became available online,
Gor stopped selling and stopped getting published, and Norman
has been in a sulk ever since.

DAW published the last Gor book in 1988, i.e. before the internet became
publicly available. They also dropped Dray Prescot and Sharon Green in
1988-1989.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by Ahasuerus
[snip]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Once porn of a much higher Mohs scale became available online,
Gor stopped selling and stopped getting published, and Norman
has been in a sulk ever since.

DAW published the last Gor book in 1988, i.e. before the internet became
publicly available. They also dropped Dray Prescot and Sharon Green in
1988-1989.

One of those things is not like the other two.

[Ahasuerus]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Ahasuerus
[snip]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Once porn of a much higher Mohs scale became available online,
Gor stopped selling and stopped getting published, and Norman
has been in a sulk ever since.

DAW published the last Gor book in 1988, i.e. before the internet
became publicly available. They also dropped Dray Prescot and Sharon
Green in 1988-1989.

One of those things is not like the other two.

Well, I don't know why they did what they did in 1988-1989, but yes,
there were many more similarities between Norman and Green. Of course,
the late 1980s was the time when Don Wollheim was in poor health and his
daughter was in the process of taking over after becoming DAW president
in 1985. She has her own preferences and, as she said in a Locus interview
a few years ago (http://www.locusmag.com/2006/Issues/06Wollheim.html),
"we edit aggressively and assertively".

[Magewolf]

Post by Ahasuerus
[snip]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Once porn of a much higher Mohs scale became available online,
Gor stopped selling and stopped getting published, and Norman
has been in a sulk ever since.

DAW published the last Gor book in 1988, i.e. before the internet became
publicly available. They also dropped Dray Prescot and Sharon Green in
1988-1989.

I liked the 3 or 4 Dray Prescot books I read. They were not very
original but they were pretty good planetary adventure.

I only remember reading one Sharon Green book. It was about a female
agent going undercover on a primitive planet. I can not remember if she
was supposed to be going in as a slave or if she just got captured and
made into one as soon as she set foot on the planet. But anyway the
rest of the book was about her being trained as a sexslave. For some
reason I never read another of her books.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by Magewolf

Post by Ahasuerus
[snip]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
Once porn of a much higher Mohs scale became available online,
Gor stopped selling and stopped getting published, and Norman
has been in a sulk ever since.

DAW published the last Gor book in 1988, i.e. before the internet became
publicly available. They also dropped Dray Prescot and Sharon Green in
1988-1989.

I liked the 3 or 4 Dray Prescot books I read. They were not very
original but they were pretty good planetary adventure.

They got quite a bit better for a good while then dropped back to good
planetary adventure. I've got the non-DAWs as ebooks. I'll probably
get back to them pretty soon to see if they amp up again.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy

Post by Quadibloc
After reading the first novel, I had hopes that it might shake
off the reveling in a society where women were slaves, and get
back to the interesting SF plot - so I waded through them until
the third book, "The Priest-Kings of Gor", where I thought there
would be a chance of getting to the real plot.

You're assuming that reveling in a society where women are slaves
isn't the real plot.

Well, that was certainly Norman's plot.
If you can call that a plot.
As any fule kno by now, Gor wasn't SF; it wasn't even fantasy
(strictu sensu); it was soft-core porn designed to leach away the
allowances of teenaged males who couldn't get at the real thing.
Once porn of a much higher Mohs scale became available online,
Gor stopped selling and stopped getting published, and Norman
has been in a sulk ever since.

I'm not sure I follow you. Just because you didn't like it, and/or
it was soft core porn (which was not true in the Ballentine days iirc)
does not mean it was not SF.

[J. Clarke]

Post by Ted Nolan <tednolan>

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy

Post by Quadibloc
After reading the first novel, I had hopes that it might shake
off the reveling in a society where women were slaves, and get
back to the interesting SF plot - so I waded through them until
the third book, "The Priest-Kings of Gor", where I thought there
would be a chance of getting to the real plot.

You're assuming that reveling in a society where women are slaves
isn't the real plot.

Well, that was certainly Norman's plot.
If you can call that a plot.
As any fule kno by now, Gor wasn't SF; it wasn't even fantasy
(strictu sensu); it was soft-core porn designed to leach away the
allowances of teenaged males who couldn't get at the real thing.
Once porn of a much higher Mohs scale became available online,
Gor stopped selling and stopped getting published, and Norman
has been in a sulk ever since.

I'm not sure I follow you. Just because you didn't like it, and/or
it was soft core porn (which was not true in the Ballentine days iirc)
does not mean it was not SF.

Some people are so narrow-minded that they can't concieve of a work
belonging simultaneously to two genres--it must be a mystery _or_ SF, it
can't be both. Note by the way that "Gorean" is a thing in the BDSM
community.

[h***@gmail.com]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy

Post by Quadibloc
After reading the first novel, I had hopes that it might shake
off the reveling in a society where women were slaves, and get
back to the interesting SF plot - so I waded through them until
the third book, "The Priest-Kings of Gor", where I thought there
would be a chance of getting to the real plot.

You're assuming that reveling in a society where women are slaves
isn't the real plot.

Well, that was certainly Norman's plot.
If you can call that a plot.

It's not a plot.
It's the background of the books and probably largely the main selling point of the books, but the books did have plots.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

On Saturday, April 29, 2017 at 9:30:06 AM UTC+10, Dorothy J

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy

Post by Quadibloc
After reading the first novel, I had hopes that it might
shake off the reveling in a society where women were slaves,
and get back to the interesting SF plot - so I waded through
them until the third book, "The Priest-Kings of Gor", where
I thought there would be a chance of getting to the real
plot.

You're assuming that reveling in a society where women are
slaves isn't the real plot.

Well, that was certainly Norman's plot.
If you can call that a plot.

It's not a plot.
It's the background of the books and probably largely the main
selling point of the books, but the books did have plots.

All of which involved reveling in a society where women are slaves?
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Ted Nolan <tednolan>]

Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy

On Saturday, April 29, 2017 at 9:30:06 AM UTC+10, Dorothy J

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy

Post by Quadibloc
After reading the first novel, I had hopes that it might
shake off the reveling in a society where women were slaves,
and get back to the interesting SF plot - so I waded through
them until the third book, "The Priest-Kings of Gor", where
I thought there would be a chance of getting to the real
plot.

You're assuming that reveling in a society where women are
slaves isn't the real plot.

Well, that was certainly Norman's plot.
If you can call that a plot.

It's not a plot.
It's the background of the books and probably largely the main
selling point of the books, but the books did have plots.

All of which involved reveling in a society where women are slaves?

Well, I don't think the Kuri or Priest Kings really cared how the humans
ordered their society, so presumably it didn't play a big role in the
planetary defense plot.

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy

On Saturday, April 29, 2017 at 9:30:06 AM UTC+10, Dorothy J

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy

Post by Quadibloc
After reading the first novel, I had hopes that it might
shake off the reveling in a society where women were slaves,
and get back to the interesting SF plot - so I waded through
them until the third book, "The Priest-Kings of Gor", where
I thought there would be a chance of getting to the real
plot.

You're assuming that reveling in a society where women are
slaves isn't the real plot.

Well, that was certainly Norman's plot.
If you can call that a plot.

It's not a plot.
It's the background of the books and probably largely the main
selling point of the books, but the books did have plots.

All of which involved reveling in a society where women are slaves?

Remember the target audience.

[Robert Carnegie]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy

Post by Quadibloc
After reading the first novel, I had hopes that it might shake
off the reveling in a society where women were slaves, and get
back to the interesting SF plot - so I waded through them until
the third book, "The Priest-Kings of Gor", where I thought there
would be a chance of getting to the real plot.

You're assuming that reveling in a society where women are slaves
isn't the real plot.

Well, that was certainly Norman's plot.
If you can call that a plot.

I know you won't want to dwell on it, but to be
precise - latterly, at least, the premise was that
it was /good/ for women to be usually-naked and
chained sex slaves (I forget if other slave work
was involved, most of the activity was sex),
including that this was good /for/ the women,
and any who thought they didn't want to be sex
slaves just hadn't tried it. But by the end of
each book, they all had.

Much like any other argument justifying any type
of slavery, I suppose.

But it clearly was important because the narrator
kept explaining it over and over again.

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
As any fule kno by now, Gor wasn't SF; it wasn't even fantasy
(strictu sensu); it was soft-core porn designed to leach away the
allowances of teenaged males who couldn't get at the real thing.
Once porn of a much higher Mohs scale became available online,
Gor stopped selling and stopped getting published, and Norman
has been in a sulk ever since.

It was set on a Counter-Earth planet which abducted
Earth people by flying saucer.

[Quadibloc]

Post by Robert Carnegie
It was set on a Counter-Earth planet which abducted
Earth people by flying saucer.

Which makes it science fiction in a technical sense - just as Star Wars,
since it included advanced electronic binoculars, faster-than-light
travel, and artificially intelligent robots, was science fiction, even
if the Force was supernatural.

Midichlorians notwithstanding.

John Savard

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Robert Carnegie

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy

Post by Quadibloc
After reading the first novel, I had hopes that it might shake
off the reveling in a society where women were slaves, and get
back to the interesting SF plot - so I waded through them until
the third book, "The Priest-Kings of Gor", where I thought there
would be a chance of getting to the real plot.

You're assuming that reveling in a society where women are slaves
isn't the real plot.

Well, that was certainly Norman's plot.
If you can call that a plot.

I know you won't want to dwell on it, but to be
precise - latterly, at least, the premise was that
it was /good/ for women to be usually-naked and
chained sex slaves (I forget if other slave work
was involved, most of the activity was sex),
including that this was good /for/ the women,
and any who thought they didn't want to be sex
slaves just hadn't tried it. But by the end of
each book, they all had.
Much like any other argument justifying any type
of slavery, I suppose.
But it clearly was important because the narrator
kept explaining it over and over again.

Because he wanted it to be true.

I just did a bit of searching and discovered that the original
link to "Houseplants of Gor" has died, Jim.

But I do have the complete text, save to disk. If anybody Really
Wants to read it, I'll repost it.

It's basically s/women/houseplants/g and s/sex/water/g. Even
without the sex in it, it's still a story of sadistic compulsion,
reminding me of W. H. Auden's comment on _The Lord of the Rings_:

"The desire for power must always be unnecessarily sadistic,
because it is not enough that another does what it wants: he must
be made to do it against his will."

[Gene Wirchenko]

On Fri, 28 Apr 2017 23:05:51 GMT, ***@kithrup.com (Dorothy J
Heydt) wrote:

[snip]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
As any fule kno by now, Gor wasn't SF; it wasn't even fantasy
(strictu sensu); it was soft-core porn designed to leach away the
allowances of teenaged males who couldn't get at the real thing.
Once porn of a much higher Mohs scale became available online,
Gor stopped selling and stopped getting published, and Norman
has been in a sulk ever since.

I read some of the Gor novels. Some of the background was quite
interesting, but the hardline insistence that women were natural
slaves was very very wearing. I never bought any of the Gor novels,
and with what I know, I never will.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

[Quadibloc]

Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy
You're assuming that reveling in a society where women are slaves
isn't the real plot.

Well, no, I know perfectly well, now, that it was the raison d'etre of the
Gor series. I feared as much then. But when I first encountered the books,
I had _hoped_ that they would be an exciting adventure series wherein Tarl
Cabot plots to overthrow the tyranny of the Priest-Kings. Even if his
*father* thought that Gor, as it was, was a paradise.

I have read that John Norman's intent on writing the *first* book in the
series was... not quite what it was with the later books, once he learned
that he had hit a responsive and profitable chord.

John Savard

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Sjouke Burry

Post by Dorothy J Heydt

Post by Quadibloc
As far as the Gor novels are concerned, my recollection is that
they wallowed in male supremacy from the first novel - only the first half
or so of it was "decent ERB-style fantasy". It got worse in the second
book, but there was no drastic turnaround.

The Other Change of Hobbit, Berkeley's major > only SF bookstore,
refused to stock the Gor novels. They posted one torn-out page
on the wall as an example of why.

Please tell us more about that example. :)

I can't even remember it. This was a while ago. Take any Gor
book, tear out any page, you'll get the idea.

[David Goldfarb]

Post by Quadibloc
As far as the Gor novels are concerned, my recollection is that
they wallowed in male supremacy from the first novel - only the first half
or so of it was "decent ERB-style fantasy". It got worse in the second
book, but there was no drastic turnaround.

I used to work part-time at an SFF specialty bookstore in Berkeley
called "The Other Change of Hobbit". We didn't carry the Gor books.
If you went to the N's on the bookshelves, you would find a page torn
out of "the first, and least offensive, Gor book". It was a
paperback-sized page with a note on it written by hand; we weren't
making a huge deal out of it, but it was there.

The page had a long disquisition by a woman, saying how even if she
couldn't respect a particular man, she could respect the chains he
put her in.

So yeah, that element was definitely there from the start.

(If, as happened, people came in asking for Gor books, we would
readily direct them a few blocks further down Telegraph Avenue to
Cody's, where they would find a fine selection thereof. We weren't
engaging in censorship, we were exercising taste.)

(When I say "we", of course, I mean that the store owners were; as a
part-timer I had no input. But I agree with their stance and am willing
to identify myself with it.)

[Don Kuenz]

Post by David Goldfarb

Post by Quadibloc
As far as the Gor novels are concerned, my recollection is that
they wallowed in male supremacy from the first novel - only the first half
or so of it was "decent ERB-style fantasy". It got worse in the second
book, but there was no drastic turnaround.

I used to work part-time at an SFF specialty bookstore in Berkeley
called "The Other Change of Hobbit". We didn't carry the Gor books.
If you went to the N's on the bookshelves, you would find a page torn
out of "the first, and least offensive, Gor book". It was a
paperback-sized page with a note on it written by hand; we weren't
making a huge deal out of it, but it was there.
The page had a long disquisition by a woman, saying how even if she
couldn't respect a particular man, she could respect the chains he
put her in.
So yeah, that element was definitely there from the start.
(If, as happened, people came in asking for Gor books, we would
readily direct them a few blocks further down Telegraph Avenue to
Cody's, where they would find a fine selection thereof. We weren't
engaging in censorship, we were exercising taste.)
(When I say "we", of course, I mean that the store owners were; as a
part-timer I had no input. But I agree with their stance and am willing
to identify myself with it.)

"if she couldn't respect a particular man, she could respect
the chains he put her in."

Ugh! Prose suitable for sadistic "teenaged males who couldn't get at the
real thing" (to paraphrase Dorothy).

Thank you,

--
Don Kuenz KB7RPU

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Don Kuenz

Post by David Goldfarb

Post by Quadibloc
As far as the Gor novels are concerned, my recollection is that
they wallowed in male supremacy from the first novel - only the first half
or so of it was "decent ERB-style fantasy". It got worse in the second
book, but there was no drastic turnaround.

I used to work part-time at an SFF specialty bookstore in Berkeley
called "The Other Change of Hobbit". We didn't carry the Gor books.
If you went to the N's on the bookshelves, you would find a page torn
out of "the first, and least offensive, Gor book". It was a
paperback-sized page with a note on it written by hand; we weren't
making a huge deal out of it, but it was there.

I remember that; in fact, I think I mentioned it on this thread a
while back. (And somebody asked, "What did it say?" and I said
"I've forgotten.")

Post by Don Kuenz

Post by David Goldfarb
The page had a long disquisition by a woman, saying how even if she
couldn't respect a particular man, she could respect the chains he
put her in.

Geez. Louise.

Post by Don Kuenz

Post by David Goldfarb
So yeah, that element was definitely there from the start.
(If, as happened, people came in asking for Gor books, we would
readily direct them a few blocks further down Telegraph Avenue to
Cody's, where they would find a fine selection thereof. We weren't
engaging in censorship, we were exercising taste.)
(When I say "we", of course, I mean that the store owners were; as a
part-timer I had no input. But I agree with their stance and am willing
to identify myself with it.)

"if she couldn't respect a particular man, she could respect
the chains he put her in."
Ugh! Prose suitable for sadistic "teenaged males who couldn't get at the
real thing" (to paraphrase Dorothy).

Maybe not even sadistic _strictu sensu_, just adolescent and
desperately horny and willing to contemplate sex under any
circumstances, so long as there was enough of it.

I mean, I've read and heard about young males who are willing to
do the deed with Mom's vacuum cleaner.

Or a knothole. To which I asked, "Don't they worry about
splinters?" And somebody replied, "If they're middle-aged, yes.
If they're adolescents, no."

There's said to be a Jewish prayer wherein the man says, "I thank
you, God, for not making me a woman." I thank God for not making
me a man, subject to his hormones from puberty till severe
decline in health or death, whichever comes first.

[Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy]

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
There's said to be a Jewish prayer wherein the man says, "I
thank you, God, for not making me a woman." I thank God for not
making me a man, subject to his hormones from puberty till
severe decline in health or death, whichever comes first.

Given that the stereotype of the woman on PMS is just as common
(very), and just as rooted in reality (a lot less, but real), I don't
think women have any real basis for criticizing men over hormones.
--
Terry Austin

Vacation photos from Iceland:
https://plus.google.com/u/0/collection/QaXQkB

"Terry Austin: like the polio vaccine, only with more asshole."
-- David Bilek

Jesus forgives sinners, not criminals.

[Gene Wirchenko]

On Sat, 29 Apr 2017 15:27:52 -0700, Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy

Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
There's said to be a Jewish prayer wherein the man says, "I
thank you, God, for not making me a woman." I thank God for not
making me a man, subject to his hormones from puberty till
severe decline in health or death, whichever comes first.

Given that the stereotype of the woman on PMS is just as common
(very), and just as rooted in reality (a lot less, but real), I don't
think women have any real basis for criticizing men over hormones.

Thank you. I was about the state about the same.

Sincerely,

Gene Wirchenko

[Dorothy J Heydt]

Post by Gutless Umbrella Carrying Sissy

Post by Dorothy J Heydt
There's said to be a Jewish prayer wherein the man says, "I
thank you, God, for not making me a woman." I thank God for not
making me a man, subject to his hormones from puberty till
severe decline in health or death, whichever comes first.

Given that the stereotype of the woman on PMS is just as common
(very), and just as rooted in reality (a lot less, but real), I don't
think women have any real basis for criticizing men over hormones.

Put it this way: One week/month till age 50 or so, versus a
near-lifetime.

Maybe I just got soured after getting disgusting remarks from
strangers from about sixteen till about fifty.