Post by Ken BlakeOn Thu, 1 Mar 2018 12:08:33 -0700, Ken Springer
Post by Ken SpringerYou have pretty much mirrored my frustration with the lack of any
documentation being included with computers. It's no wonder people have
so little clue as to how to use a computer.
Although I somewhat share your frustration, at least in part, let me
1. It costs considerably more to print documentation that it does to
create a Windows DVD. So the lack of documentation keeps the cost
down.
I see. So... It's all about the money, and nothing about the
investment in education for the future.
This reminds me of a retired individual I had working for me as a
volunteer at a government management unit. At the time, he was about
the same age as you are now. One day he was bitching his head off about
having to pay taxes for public education. He had his education, and
didn't want to be paying for someone else's. Of course, he'd forgotten
that someone else had paid for his...
The conversation ended, when I pointed out to him, that someday one of
those kids he didn't want to pay for and educate, might be trying to
make change for him at the store. End of conversation. :-)
Post by Ken Blake2. The lack of documentation *may* (see below) be an issue for some
people, but not for most of us with Windows experience. So as far as
I'm concerned, keeping the cost down by not having documentation is
good, not bad.
So, are you saying it's all about experienced users? Is the new user
supposed to go suck wind?
That's actually a similar attitude to the one you expressed above.
This is one of the reasons most people I meet hate Windows 10. They
have no help using the new UI, and didn't have any help using previous
UIs either. Not all at much different than when MS introduced 8.x. I
maintain that, had they provided documentation about the new Start
Screen and how to use it, it would not have been the abject failure it
turned out to be.
Post by Ken Blake3. Most people never look at whatever documentation they get with
their computers, cars, TV sets, or anything else. They put it away
somewhere, and usually can't remember where. Or maybe they throw it
away. They don't even look at it when it's a one or two page flyer
that came with the computer.
"You can lead a horse to water but can't make him drink." Is that what
your saying? What if you take a herd of horses to water, and only a few
take a drink? What you are saying is, "Lets punish the horses that will
take a drink by not taking any of the horses to water."
Let's punish the user who will read the documentation by not giving him
documentation because most will not read it. Correct?
Post by Ken BlakeAs a single example, look at how many people who get a one or two page
flyer with their computer telling them about the recovery partition
that comes with it instead of a DVD, and tells them they should copy
it to a DVD and how to do it, and not only don't do it, but never
realize that they could or should.
You do know the old joke about the word "assume", do you not? It makes
an "Ass" of "U" and "Me".
You just assumed that *all* users know how to do this. I have a friend
who actually followed these onscreen instructions. But still screwed
up. Know what he did? He labeled the discs on the recorded side of the
disc. Ruined them. There was no instructions about that. :-)
Post by Ken BlakeAnd because most people never look at their documentation, that's
another reason why keeping the cost down by not having documentation
is good, not bad.
So, you would punish the user, by not providing documentation, who might
grow up and be the next Bill Gates or Steve Jobs?
Attitudes like this, cheap, is why teachers now buy school supplies
because citizens are too cheap to invest in the future. And, so many of
the products we buy are crap. In general, we buy based on how cheap
something is, not the quality of the product.
As President McKinley said, "Cheap prices make for cheap goods; cheap
goods make for cheap men; and cheap men make for a cheap country.”
Post by Ken Blake4. In my experience, back in the days when documentation used to be
much more common with computers and software packages, it was
typically somewhere between mediocre and very poor. If you wanted good
documentation, you bought a third-party book.
I see... So, because it was between mediocre and poor, that's a good
justification for not providing any documentation? What about the idea
of improving the documentation?
Post by Ken Blake5. Those third-party books are still available. And since they are
almost always better than what used to come with the computer or
software, and probably cost less than the addition to the price that
would exist if they were included with it, that's what people should
get.
So, where do you go to see a book and make a judgement on the contents?
Borders is gone. I think Dalton's is too.
I see one answer now. Read it on the computer or a tablet. But that's
my point... You can't do that if you don't know how!! And you won't
know how until you have something to read. Assuming the user has
actually learned how to read.
Post by Ken Blake6. Very few people buy those third-party books. They don't because
they don't want to take the time and trouble to read them any more
than they used to when they were included with the software packages.
Or in some cases because they can't afford them.
Yea, more "lets penalize everyone" because most do not take advantage of
the opportunity. Hell, it's been that way a multitude of industries.
We need to be increasing the options of education, not diminishing them.
I don't buy the books anymore. Why? Because I found them all to be
wanting in one area or another. Fitting into your description of
mediocre to poor. Not to mention, the nearest bookstores are 40-60
miles away, in an area of a quarter-million people.
Post by Ken BlakePost by Ken SpringerI was lucky, I didn't start out with Windows. My first windowing
computer was an Atari 1040ST. That manual DID tell you how to drag and
drop, and everything else. So when I was exposed to Windows, those
things I already knew how to do.
I didn't start out with Windows either. I started out with mainframe
computers (in 1962). When I started with PCs (in 1987), it was with on
an IBM clone running DOS (3.0). I started with Windows a few years
later (Windows 2.0, running under DOS), but didn't use it much. It was
just a way to learn something new (and something that I correctly
anticipated would take over) and get familiar with it.
Did you have documentation with that mainframe to refer to when needed?
Presuming you went to college to get an education about computers, did
you have books there?
Post by Ken BlakeI've run almost every version of Windows from 3.0 to 10 since then. I
learned it from my early experience with 2.0, from reading books
about it, from my son, who started with PCs before I did, from other
friends with more Windows experience that I had, from attending
meetings of the local PC Users Group, from my own trial, error, and
research, and from newsgroups.
I know, and you *are* very knowledgeable, which is why I read your posts.
But you always take the perspective of someone with experience. I take
the perspective of those without the experience, and it's these people
from whom new leaders, scientists, and ???? will come from.
Post by Ken BlakeAlso having skipped almost no versions of Windows except for Me, going
from one version to the next was seldom a big jump for me. It's a much
bigger jump for those who stick for too long with an old obsolescent
version before moving to a new one, since they have to take in a lot
more changes at once. Many, if not most, people who don't like Windows
10 fall into that category, and that's largely the reason most people
don't like it.
I actually liked the UI of Me, although I never owned a computer with it
installed. Technically, my first MS OS ownership was DOS 3.11. But, I
installed an add-on board in my 1040ST that had an 8086 processor and
8087 math chip. Had a similar thing on my Atari TT030, a cartridge that
ran Apple's System 6. My first MS computer was Windows 98. Then to XP,
and every one since. My first Apple ownership was my mothers OS 10.2
Jaguar. Then bought an iMac with 10.5 Leopard. It's now upgraded to
10.11, El Capitan. Skipped Lion and Mavericks.
I now use the system that fits my needs for whatever. But overall, I
use the Mac. It just chugs along with almost no system updates, whereas
there are security updates left and right for my windows computers that
are still supported.
I won't use W10 either, not because I think it's crappy, or similar. I
actually think it's pretty good. I think the new Start Menu is a huge
improvement over the past, but if you don't know how to use it, it's
just as worthless as the predecessors. But again, constant updating,
they can't leave the UI alone, and most of all, those things many call
"spying". When you buy a system off the shelf, you should be allowed to
opt in for those features. And when presented with them, there needs to
be a truly adequate explanation. And, there isn't.
I just did a fresh W10 install using the Media Creation Tool. The
Cortana explanation got me curious, so I clicked the "Learn more"
button. That brought up15-20 lines of info. But it made mention of
MS's Cortana website, and there's so much more info on what MS does you
don't know about. I'll bet it takes 4 pages of paper to print.
Post by Ken BlakePost by Ken SpringerA friend of mine recently made a very cogent comment... "Ignorance is a
choice." After he said that, I lost all sympathy for people having
computer issues. They can go out and find the answers, or live with the
problem.
Ignorance is only partly a choice. Many people don't know they can go
out and find the answers, or don't even know that they can do that.
Ignorance is *always* a choice. In your example, they choose NOT to
find out where they can get the answers.
Post by Ken BlakeAnd many people don't have the time to do it; it's usually a lot
quicker to ask a question and be told the answer than it is to search
for it, whether in books, on the web, or anywhere else.
This assumes you know where to ask the questions. Everyone has the same
number of hours in a day. It's how you choose to spend them.
Post by Ken BlakeI have lots of sympathy for people with computer problems. That's why
I help many friend and relatives with their computer problems, and
it's also the reason I'm here in this newsgroup and others, and also
in the Microsoft Windows forums--to help when I can.
I have been severely disappointed in the MS forums. Too many threads
get an answer from someone who is supposed to be knowledgeable via MS,
and when the poster says "It didn't work", that person never replies.
Usually, but not always, I find the answer somewhere on the web. But
it's rarely an answer from MS.
--
Ken
Mac OS X 10.11.6
Firefox 53.0.2 (64 bit)
Thunderbird 52.0
"My brain is like lightning, a quick flash
and it's gone!"
