Formula E gets the halo

[m***@gmail.com]

http://kwese.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/22262796/formula-e-reveals-next-generation-car-halo

And I reckon that car's a looker.

[larkim]

Post by m***@gmail.com
http://kwese.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/22262796/formula-e-reveals-next-generation-car-halo
And I reckon that car's a looker.

We're getting closer to the Batmobile every year...

Not saying I hate it, but it is taking racing cars in a new direction.

[News]

Post by larkim

Post by m***@gmail.com
http://kwese.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/22262796/formula-e-reveals-next-generation-car-halo
And I reckon that car's a looker.

We're getting closer to the Batmobile every year...
Not saying I hate it, but it is taking racing cars in a new direction.

Formula E v. 2.0 looking like 2020 Indy Car 'aero kits'

[~misfit~]

Post by larkim

Post by m***@gmail.com
http://kwese.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/22262796/formula-e-reveals-next-generation-car-halo
And I reckon that car's a looker.

We're getting closer to the Batmobile every year...
Not saying I hate it, but it is taking racing cars in a new direction.

I find it odd that they have large wheels yet (relatively) small brake
discs. Perhaps those discs are already enough to reach the limits of the
tyres? (Though I'd think that larger discs would give more constant
temperatures and better feel making it easier to not snatch a wheel...)

[t***@gmail.com]

Post by ~misfit~
I find it odd

This coming from King Odd.

[alister]

Post by ~misfit~

Post by larkim

Post by m***@gmail.com
http://kwese.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/22262796/formula-e-reveals-next-

generation-car-halo

Post by ~misfit~

Post by larkim

Post by m***@gmail.com
And I reckon that car's a looker.

We're getting closer to the Batmobile every year...
Not saying I hate it, but it is taking racing cars in a new direction.

I find it odd that they have large wheels yet (relatively) small brake
discs. Perhaps those discs are already enough to reach the limits of the
tyres? (Though I'd think that larger discs would give more constant
temperatures and better feel making it easier to not snatch a wheel...)

Unless i am mistaken Formula E has regenerative breaking (KERS) to
recharge the batteries.
as such it would need smaller brake disks as physical breaking would
reduce this recharge and throw energy away.

[m***@gmail.com]

Post by alister
Unless i am mistaken Formula E has regenerative breaking (KERS) to
recharge the batteries.
as such it would need smaller brake disks as physical breaking would
reduce this recharge and throw energy away.

Interestingly, FE cars are heavier than F1 cars. This surprised me.

Some other titbits I gleaned, and which may add up to some sort of answer
1) The rear brakes are regenerative - front are not. The rules only permit recovery from the rear axle.
2) The top speeds are limited and way slower than F1 (about 140mph). Maybe this means the brakes don't work as hard because they don't have to slow the car from as high a speed.
3) They use the wheels to regulate brake temperature. Originally there was a spec wheel. These days you can fit anything you like as long as it meets a regulation about open space. All the teams use the wheels to some degree as a heat sink.
4) The tyres are totally different from F1, and much harder wearing. I think that means less grip, so less friction, so less punishment for the brakes. They are designed to last an entire race weekend, and are treaded. They will run in the dry or in a certain amount of water (there is a "monsoon" tyre for extreme wet conditions).

[~misfit~]

Post by alister

Post by ~misfit~

Post by larkim

Post by m***@gmail.com
http://kwese.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/22262796/formula-e-reveals-next-
generation-car-halo
And I reckon that car's a looker.

We're getting closer to the Batmobile every year...
Not saying I hate it, but it is taking racing cars in a new
direction.

I find it odd that they have large wheels yet (relatively) small
brake discs. Perhaps those discs are already enough to reach the
limits of the tyres? (Though I'd think that larger discs would give
more constant temperatures and better feel making it easier to not
snatch a wheel...)

Unless i am mistaken Formula E has regenerative breaking (KERS) to
recharge the batteries.

You're not mistaken.

Post by alister
as such it would need smaller brake disks as physical breaking would
reduce this recharge and throw energy away.

True to a point. However as most overtakes are carried out under braking it
makes sense to me to have really good discs on the front (where there is no
regenerative braking as yet) to be able to brake late and pass. Usually
track position is worth more than a small amount of extra power you'd lose
(which wouldn't be anywhere near enough to facilitate a pass under power).

Having discs that only fill half of the available space in the wheel rim in
a serious racing series just seems wrong.

[Darryl Johnson]

Post by ~misfit~

Post by alister

Post by ~misfit~

Post by larkim

Post by m***@gmail.com
http://kwese.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/22262796/formula-e-reveals-next-
generation-car-halo
And I reckon that car's a looker.

We're getting closer to the Batmobile every year...
Not saying I hate it, but it is taking racing cars in a new
direction.

I find it odd that they have large wheels yet (relatively) small
brake discs. Perhaps those discs are already enough to reach the
limits of the tyres? (Though I'd think that larger discs would give
more constant temperatures and better feel making it easier to not
snatch a wheel...)

Unless i am mistaken Formula E has regenerative breaking (KERS) to
recharge the batteries.

You're not mistaken.

Post by alister
as such it would need smaller brake disks as physical breaking would
reduce this recharge and throw energy away.

True to a point. However as most overtakes are carried out under braking it
makes sense to me to have really good discs on the front (where there is no
regenerative braking as yet) to be able to brake late and pass. Usually
track position is worth more than a small amount of extra power you'd lose
(which wouldn't be anywhere near enough to facilitate a pass under power).
Having discs that only fill half of the available space in the wheel rim in
a serious racing series just seems wrong.

One might be safe in assuming that the car designers/engineers have
made the brakes as large as they need to be. To have brakes larger
just for looks, to fill more of the available space, as it has been
suggested, might merely add more weight. Brakes used to be unsprung
weight, which has traditionally be considered a bad thing, as far as
performance goes. I do not know if modern F1/Formula E brakes are
still unsprung, nor if unsprung weight is still considered to be bad.

[Mark Jackson]

I do not know if modern F1/Formula E brakes are still unsprung

If they're in the wheel (and they are), they are.

[m***@gmail.com]

Post by Darryl Johnson

Post by ~misfit~

Post by alister

Post by ~misfit~

Post by larkim

Post by m***@gmail.com
http://kwese.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/22262796/formula-e-reveals-next-
generation-car-halo
And I reckon that car's a looker.

We're getting closer to the Batmobile every year...
Not saying I hate it, but it is taking racing cars in a new direction.

I find it odd that they have large wheels yet (relatively) small
brake discs. Perhaps those discs are already enough to reach the
limits of the tyres? (Though I'd think that larger discs would give
more constant temperatures and better feel making it easier to not
snatch a wheel...)

Unless i am mistaken Formula E has regenerative breaking (KERS) to
recharge the batteries.

You're not mistaken.

Post by alister
as such it would need smaller brake disks as physical breaking would
reduce this recharge and throw energy away.

True to a point. However as most overtakes are carried out under braking it
makes sense to me to have really good discs on the front (where there is no
regenerative braking as yet) to be able to brake late and pass. Usually
track position is worth more than a small amount of extra power you'd lose
(which wouldn't be anywhere near enough to facilitate a pass under power).
Having discs that only fill half of the available space in the wheel rim in
a serious racing series just seems wrong.

One might be safe in assuming that the car designers/engineers have
made the brakes as large as they need to be. To have brakes larger
just for looks, to fill more of the available space, as it has been
suggested, might merely add more weight. Brakes used to be unsprung
weight, which has traditionally be considered a bad thing, as far as
performance goes. I do not know if modern F1/Formula E brakes are
still unsprung, nor if unsprung weight is still considered to be bad.

Certainly the fronts are. One of the problem with inboard brakes would be the cooling. Not just getting the air to them, but directing the air away from them.

Are carbon brakes light enough VS steel to reduce the unsprung weight problem?

[~misfit~]

Post by Darryl Johnson

Post by ~misfit~

Post by alister

Post by ~misfit~

Post by larkim

Post by m***@gmail.com
http://kwese.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/22262796/formula-e-reveals-next-
generation-car-halo
And I reckon that car's a looker.

We're getting closer to the Batmobile every year...
Not saying I hate it, but it is taking racing cars in a new direction.

I find it odd that they have large wheels yet (relatively) small
brake discs. Perhaps those discs are already enough to reach the
limits of the tyres? (Though I'd think that larger discs would give
more constant temperatures and better feel making it easier to not
snatch a wheel...)

Unless i am mistaken Formula E has regenerative breaking (KERS) to
recharge the batteries.

You're not mistaken.

Post by alister
as such it would need smaller brake disks as physical breaking would
reduce this recharge and throw energy away.

True to a point. However as most overtakes are carried out under
braking it makes sense to me to have really good discs on the front
(where there is no regenerative braking as yet) to be able to brake
late and pass. Usually track position is worth more than a small
amount of extra power you'd lose (which wouldn't be anywhere near
enough to facilitate a pass under power). Having discs that only fill
half of the available space in the wheel
rim in a serious racing series just seems wrong.

One might be safe in assuming that the car designers/engineers have
made the brakes as large as they need to be. To have brakes larger
just for looks, to fill more of the available space, as it has been
suggested, might merely add more weight. Brakes used to be unsprung
weight, which has traditionally be considered a bad thing, as far as
performance goes. I do not know if modern F1/Formula E brakes are
still unsprung, nor if unsprung weight is still considered to be bad.

Yep. If they're outboard of the suspension then they're 'unsprung'. The
usual way to get past this issue is how Jaguar did with their rear transaxle
of several deacdes ago that had the brake discs on the other end of the
driveshafts, right next to the diff.

Did you see Lotterer run out of brakes and have to use his team mates brakes
to stop in yesterdays race? I'd say that if he had larger discs (more
friction area) he'd have been able to brake in a much more controlled
manner.

[build]

Post by Darryl Johnson

Post by ~misfit~

Post by alister

Post by ~misfit~

Post by larkim

Post by m***@gmail.com
http://kwese.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/22262796/formula-e-reveals-next-
generation-car-halo
And I reckon that car's a looker.

We're getting closer to the Batmobile every year...
Not saying I hate it, but it is taking racing cars in a new direction.

I find it odd that they have large wheels yet (relatively) small
brake discs. Perhaps those discs are already enough to reach the
limits of the tyres? (Though I'd think that larger discs would give
more constant temperatures and better feel making it easier to not
snatch a wheel...)

Unless i am mistaken Formula E has regenerative breaking (KERS) to
recharge the batteries.

You're not mistaken.

Post by alister
as such it would need smaller brake disks as physical breaking would
reduce this recharge and throw energy away.

True to a point. However as most overtakes are carried out under braking it
makes sense to me to have really good discs on the front (where there is no
regenerative braking as yet) to be able to brake late and pass. Usually
track position is worth more than a small amount of extra power you'd lose
(which wouldn't be anywhere near enough to facilitate a pass under power).
Having discs that only fill half of the available space in the wheel rim in
a serious racing series just seems wrong.

One might be safe in assuming that the car designers/engineers have
made the brakes as large as they need to be. To have brakes larger
just for looks, to fill more of the available space, as it has been
suggested, might merely add more weight. Brakes used to be unsprung
weight, which has traditionally be considered a bad thing, as far as
performance goes. I do not know if modern F1/Formula E brakes are
still unsprung, nor if unsprung weight is still considered to be bad.

Good points, the designers/engineers do have a clue! so with the sprung portion of Formula E braking doing a lot of the work the unsprung portion can be smaller and lighter. Also with those ridiculous fashion statements called low profile tyres, unsprung weight is more of a concern.

beers,

[m***@gmail.com]

Post by build
Good points, the designers/engineers do have a clue! so with the sprung portion of Formula E braking doing a lot of the work the unsprung portion can be smaller and lighter. Also with those ridiculous fashion statements called low profile tyres, unsprung weight is more of a concern.
beers,

FE has a minimum weight for wheels - one of the parts that teams supply themselves. The idea is to stop people spending stupid money on wheels, but it must have an implication for unsprung weight.

Though I suppose that with the spec chassis and suspension, it means that unsprung weight is pretty much the same for everybody.

How different a challenge is this from F1? Getting the best performance out of a spec package? I suppose it's similar to Indycar in that regard.

I note that they also planning fast charging for FE, fast enough that cars will be able to get a useful charge during a pit stop.

[DumbedDownUSA]

Post by m***@gmail.com
I note that they also planning fast charging for FE, fast enough that
cars will be able to get a useful charge during a pit stop.

Not unthinkable but time for a cup of tea and a sandwich at least.

[~misfit~]

Post by DumbedDownUSA

Post by m***@gmail.com
I note that they also planning fast charging for FE, fast enough that
cars will be able to get a useful charge during a pit stop.

Not unthinkable but time for a cup of tea and a sandwich at least.

It *is* unthinkable in Formula E.

TTBOMK the only reason they've been mentioned in the same breath is because
of their new naming-rights sponsor ABB. ABB are in that business and are
using FE to promote their technology (as you'd expect, they want return on
investment).

Only a gullible person would think that any sort of (stationary) in-race
charging will ever happen in FE. It's far more likey that they'll fit wires
into the track and turn them into giant perhaps (non-contact 'wireless')
Scalextric cars. ;)

I'm happy to be proved wrong but that's my understanding of the situation.

[Bigbird]

Post by DumbedDownUSA

Post by m***@gmail.com
I note that they also planning fast charging for FE, fast enough
that cars will be able to get a useful charge during a pit stop.

Not unthinkable but time for a cup of tea and a sandwich at least.

It is unthinkable in Formula E.
TTBOMK the only reason they've been mentioned in the same breath is
because of their new naming-rights sponsor ABB. ABB are in that
business and are using FE to promote their technology (as you'd
expect, they want return on investment).
Only a gullible person would think that any sort of (stationary)
in-race charging will ever happen in FE. It's far more likey that
they'll fit wires into the track and turn them into giant perhaps
(non-contact 'wireless') Scalextric cars. ;)
I'm happy to be proved wrong but that's my understanding of the situation.

You are being ridiculous Shaun.

[~misfit~]

Post by Bigbird

Post by DumbedDownUSA

Post by m***@gmail.com
I note that they also planning fast charging for FE, fast enough
that cars will be able to get a useful charge during a pit stop.

Not unthinkable but time for a cup of tea and a sandwich at least.

It is unthinkable in Formula E.
TTBOMK the only reason they've been mentioned in the same breath is
because of their new naming-rights sponsor ABB. ABB are in that
business and are using FE to promote their technology (as you'd
expect, they want return on investment).
Only a gullible person would think that any sort of (stationary)
in-race charging will ever happen in FE. It's far more likey that
they'll fit wires into the track and turn them into giant perhaps
(non-contact 'wireless') Scalextric cars. ;)
I'm happy to be proved wrong but that's my understanding of the situation.

You are being ridiculous Shaun.

Ok. In what way?

[geoff]

Post by ~misfit~

Post by Bigbird

Post by ~misfit~
Only a gullible person would think that any sort of (stationary)
in-race charging will ever happen in FE. It's far more likey that
they'll fit wires into the track and turn them into giant perhaps
(non-contact 'wireless') Scalextric cars. ;)
I'm happy to be proved wrong but that's my understanding of the situation.

You are being ridiculous Shaun.

Ok. In what way?

I think he may notice have noticed or understood the smiley.

geoff

[~misfit~]

Post by geoff

Post by ~misfit~

Post by Bigbird

Post by ~misfit~
Only a gullible person would think that any sort of (stationary)
in-race charging will ever happen in FE. It's far more likey that
they'll fit wires into the track and turn them into giant perhaps
(non-contact 'wireless') Scalextric cars. ;)
I'm happy to be proved wrong but that's my understanding of the situation.

You are being ridiculous Shaun.

Ok. In what way?

I think he may notice have noticed or understood the smiley.
geoff

Maybe. I'm curious cos I didn't think I was very wide of the mark. <shrug>

[t***@gmail.com]

Post by geoff
I think he may notice have noticed or understood the smiley.

Can't say you don't have a purpose in life.

[Alan LeHun]

Post by Bigbird

Post by ~misfit~
Only a gullible person would think that any sort of (stationary)
in-race charging will ever happen in FE. It's far more likey that
they'll fit wires into the track and turn them into giant perhaps
(non-contact 'wireless') Scalextric cars. ;)
I'm happy to be proved wrong but that's my understanding of the situation.

You are being ridiculous Shaun.

With respect to stationary pit-stop rcharging? Or mobile induction
recharging?

I think he has it pretty much correct on those two issues, but I too,
cbw.

[m***@gmail.com]

Post by Alan LeHun

Post by Bigbird

Post by ~misfit~
Only a gullible person would think that any sort of (stationary)
in-race charging will ever happen in FE. It's far more likey that
they'll fit wires into the track and turn them into giant perhaps
(non-contact 'wireless') Scalextric cars. ;)
I'm happy to be proved wrong but that's my understanding of the situation.

You are being ridiculous Shaun.

With respect to stationary pit-stop rcharging? Or mobile induction
recharging?
I think he has it pretty much correct on those two issues, but I too,
cbw.

I read it as being a bit of a top up, not a full charge. Which is why I said "useful".

But there may be some confusion. Other reports are that the safety and medical cars will get a fast, wireless recharge in the pit lane - but again, possibly not a full recharge, just a recharge that kicks in the moment they stop on their markers.

Interestingly, there is a special charging process for the cars. They are charged at the race track, with juice from a generator running on glycerine that has neglible CO2 emissions.

I find the series very interesting from a technology point of view, and it seems to me to be a lot more relevant to real world motoring (or the future thereof) than F1.

It has a very different appeal, aimed, it seems to me, at a younger, urban, more tech conscious audience - the people who use their smart phone for things other than talking and texting - and at the manufacturers. And the latter are getting very interested.

[Bigbird]

Post by Alan LeHun

Post by Bigbird

Post by ~misfit~
Only a gullible person would think that any sort of (stationary)
in-race charging will ever happen in FE. It's far more likey that
they'll fit wires into the track and turn them into giant perhaps
(non-contact 'wireless') Scalextric cars. ;)
I'm happy to be proved wrong but that's my understanding of the situation.

You are being ridiculous Shaun.

With respect to stationary pit-stop rcharging? Or mobile induction
recharging?

Both. If the FIA and sponsors thought it was a good way to promote the
technology I do not think it's impossible for them to build it not the
formula. For instance having two pitstops; with the first car reused
for the third stint after recharging. Even making a second pitstop a
stratgy choice might be possible. If you've seen how much the cars have
to slow down to eek out their charge sometimes a second pitstop is not
an unthinkable strategy choice... well not unthinkable for someone
without a an axe to grind.

In running charging is a lot further off than in race charging.

Shaun is being ridiculous for both his transparency in knocking
something just because Bobby mentioned it and being unnecessarily
disparaging straight after he's just taken a spanking for having a crap
attitude.

Post by Alan LeHun
I think he has it pretty much correct on those two issues, but I too,
cbw.

[~misfit~]

Post by Bigbird

Post by Alan LeHun

Post by Bigbird

Post by ~misfit~
Only a gullible person would think that any sort of (stationary)
in-race charging will ever happen in FE. It's far more likey that
they'll fit wires into the track and turn them into giant perhaps
(non-contact 'wireless') Scalextric cars. ;)
I'm happy to be proved wrong but that's my understanding of the situation.

You are being ridiculous Shaun.

With respect to stationary pit-stop rcharging? Or mobile induction
recharging?

Both. If the FIA and sponsors thought it was a good way to promote the
technology I do not think it's impossible for them to build it not the
formula. For instance having two pitstops; with the first car reused
for the third stint after recharging.

The original comment was about charging during a pit stop, not parking it
and swapping to another car while it charges. As of next season they're only
having one car - are you saying they're going back on that?

Post by Bigbird
Even making a second pitstop a
stratgy choice might be possible. If you've seen how much the cars
have to slow down to eek out their charge sometimes a second pitstop
is not an unthinkable strategy choice... well not unthinkable for
someone without a an axe to grind.

See above. As of next season they're going to race the whole race in a
single car (like other premier single seater categories). Any talk of
park-and-charge is completely irrelevant.

Post by Bigbird
In running charging is a lot further off than in race charging.

In-race charging is the only option that's going tobe available to them from
next year.

Post by Bigbird
Shaun is being ridiculous for both his transparency in knocking
something just because Bobby mentioned it and being unnecessarily

Seriously Bird? I weighed in on this thread because A) I follow Formula E
and have a bit of insight into what's planned and B) I know a fair amount
about Li-Ion charging technology. I have many Li-Ion and Li-Po cells within
a couple of metres of my desk as well as both bought chargers and charging
systems I've devised myself. It's a field of interest of mine.

Post by Bigbird
disparaging straight after he's just taken a spanking for having a
crap attitude.

"Taken a spanking"? It seems that you have more empathy for emotion rather
than reason and only skim-read if that's what you took from that recent
thread. Yes I "took a spanking" if your only measure is how much abuse I
took. The "crap attitude" wasn't mine.

Post by Bigbird

Post by Alan LeHun
I think he has it pretty much correct on those two issues, but I too,
cbw.

[bra]

Post by m***@gmail.com
http://kwese.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/22262796/formula-e-reveals-next-generation-car-halo
And I reckon that car's a looker.

I liked the on-the-grass grass slide, and the rear-out smoking opposite-lock.

Now, how about a spark generator and some ultraviolet lights underneath?

But why would an inspector run his hand over the panels while wearing a thick leather glove? I recall the days when anxious Bristol Aeroplane apprentices watched while the 'miserable old bastard' ran a bare hand with a silk cloth over their rivets to check for flush. If he felt anything, the practice wing section would be smashed against the bench and the poor lad would start again.

[D Munz]

Post by m***@gmail.com
http://kwese.espn.com/f1/story/_/id/22262796/formula-e-reveals-next-generation-car-halo
And I reckon that car's a looker.

I actually like the look for an "E" car. It fits. I would not want to see that may bits on an F1 car.

There is also a set up in battery tech. Supposedly they will be able to complete an entire race now without switching cars.

It might be fun to watch a few of these races.

FWIW
DLM