Paleo-etymology & dog@English, perro@Spanish, Kuon@Greek

-
PTD: The etymology of English "dog" is not knowable, because there are no
attested early forms and no identifiable cognates in any known language.

nor: The OED gives the following spellings of the OE ancestor of dog:
docga, dogge, doggue, doig, dogg.

Based on the close resemblance these words, and particulary docga,
bare to the OE etymons dok, docke, and dock of Eng. dock for a type of
tail and its Icelandic cognate dockr for a 'short stumpy tail', there
are, imo, reasons for believing that these OE words for a dog may have
been derived to differentiate a Northern European dog or dogs with
short tails, such as the J�mthund, from dogs with longer tails, and
the word was subsequently generalized to include all dogs.

If this is correct, the process would have been similar to the one
that caused the ON etymon hundr, deductibly for a hunting dog, to
become the English term hound that people often use for any type of
dog.

BMS: The earliest attested form seems to be the 11th century
gloss Canum : docgena

b***@ihug.co.nz

2017-10-06 23:40:53 UTC

-
PTD: The etymology of English "dog" is not knowable, because there are no
attested early forms and no identifiable cognates in any known language.
docga, dogge, doggue, doig, dogg.
Based on the close resemblance these words, and particulary docga,
bare to the OE etymons dok, docke, and dock of Eng. dock for a type of
tail and its Icelandic cognate dockr for a 'short stumpy tail', there
are, imo, reasons for believing that these OE words for a dog may have
been derived to differentiate a Northern European dog or dogs with
short tails, such as the J�mthund, from dogs with longer tails, and
the word was subsequently generalized to include all dogs.
If this is correct, the process would have been similar to the one
that caused the ON etymon hundr, deductibly for a hunting dog, to
become the English term hound that people often use for any type of
dog.

No, that's backwards. "Hound" has cognates throughout Germanic which
mean "dog in general". It's only in Middle English that it narrows
to the sense of "hunting dog".

Post by Daud Deden
BMS: The earliest attested form seems to be the 11th century
gloss Canum : docgena

Daud Deden

2017-10-07 19:45:04 UTC

Dock/dog: quayside cargo carrier/puller? Longshoremen/stevedors = dockers

Use of name "dog" for industrial mechanisms to carry or pull?

docker (plural dockers) One who performs docking, as of tails.

dock (“wharf”) +‎ -er A dockworker.

Link or chance res. between wharf, warp-woof(weave), wolf-woof!

Post by Daud Deden
If this is correct, the process would have been similar to the one
that caused the ON etymon hundr, deductibly for a hunting dog, to
become the English term hound that people often use for any type of
dog.

No, that's backwards. "Hound" has cognates throughout Germanic which
mean "dog in general". It's only in Middle English that it narrows
to the sense of "hunting dog".

Post by Daud Deden
BMS: The earliest attested form seems to be the 11th century
gloss Canum : docgena

docg(en)a ~ ***@Russian:dog?

Note: The Hmong of Laos traditionally docked the tails of their hunting dogs. Dogs used for pulling bowl boats would need long tails which curled up, unlike wolves.
Note: There is a small proportion in Japanese population genetically which is shared with Hmong, perhaps showing their coastal route from the north.

b***@ihug.co.nz

2017-10-07 22:59:43 UTC

Dock/dog: quayside cargo carrier/puller? Longshoremen/stevedors = dockers
Use of name "dog" for industrial mechanisms to carry or pull?
docker (plural dockers) One who performs docking, as of tails.
dock (“wharf”) +‎ -er A dockworker.
Link or chance res. between wharf, warp-woof(weave), wolf-woof!

No, that's backwards. "Hound" has cognates throughout Germanic which
mean "dog in general". It's only in Middle English that it narrows
to the sense of "hunting dog".

No, it's generic for "dog".

Post by Daud Deden
BMS: The earliest attested form seems to be the 11th century
gloss Canum : docgena

That's sobaka, an early borrowing from Iranian, and actually cognate
with kuon, etc. What on earth can the ~ mean here?

Daud Deden

2017-10-08 00:47:33 UTC

BMS: The earliest attested form seems to be the 11th century

gloss Canum : docgena

That's sobaka, an early borrowing from Iranian, and actually cognate
with kuon, etc.
-
I thought maybe "dzobajnga" gave rise to both terms, guessing.
-
What on earth can the ~ mean here?
-
Similar/approximately/possible cognate, shorthand.

b***@ihug.co.nz

2017-10-08 02:01:39 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
BMS: The earliest attested form seems to be the 11th century

gloss Canum : docgena

That's sobaka, an early borrowing from Iranian, and actually cognate
with kuon, etc.
-
I thought maybe "dzobajnga" gave rise to both terms, guessing.

I suppose "dzobainga" would be a dialect variant of "qudongca", in
the same imaginary language?

Post by Daud Deden
What on earth can the ~ mean here?
-
Similar/approximately/possible cognate, shorthand.

I think I'll change metaphors. What you're doing is what I've called
(in its earlier appearances on sci.lang) mud-pie linguistics. It bears
approximately the same relation to actual comparative linguistics as
making mud-pies does to actual cooking. Of course children can enjoy
making mud-pies even if they're aware that they aren't real food. At
least they don't claim that mud-cooking is a more advanced form of what
grownups do.

Daud Deden

2017-10-08 14:27:50 UTC

mud/müder/m.b.udder ~ milky
PIE.

{Wonderful idea, Ross, your brilliance out-shines the sun!!}

I'm engaged with the Mother of Proto-Indo European !

Thanks Ross.
-

Now back to bowwow, wangwang and woofwoof.

DD ~ David ~ Da'ud ~ Diode ~ ∆^¥°∆
-

Post by Daud Deden
BMS: The earliest attested form seems to be the 11th century

gloss Canum : docgena

That's sobaka, an early borrowing from Iranian, and actually cognate
with kuon, etc.
-
I thought maybe "dzobajnga" gave rise to both terms, guessing.

I suppose "dzobainga" would be a dialect variant of "qudongca", in
the same imaginary language?

Post by Daud Deden
What on earth can the ~ mean here?
-
Similar/approximately/possible cognate, shorthand.

Franz Gnaedinger

2017-10-09 07:30:42 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
PTD: The etymology of English "dog" is not knowable, because there are no
attested early forms and no identifiable cognates in any known language.

An Italian trainer of rescue dogs that saved hundreds of people from drowning
says these animals have so very many almost mysterious abilities that they
should be called gods instead of dogs (turning dog around). In the light of
Magdalenian there is more than a joke. I reconstructed DhAG for able, good
in the sense of able, inverse GADh for good in the moral and ethic sense.
DhAG is the word of the most and most varied derivatives, including, I claim,
English dog. Another is Dagda, supreme Celtic god, from the emphatic doubling
DhAG DhAG able able, the good god in the sense of the able god (Barry Cunliffe).
You have a talent for word playing, but you are terribly misguided by your lack
of knowledge. You said you published 29 books, 28 on plants. If that is true,
you should have some knowledge about evolution and taxonomy in botanics.
Why do you lack that entirely when it comes to words? And don't you ever
consider that you compromit yourself as author of books on plants when you
spread nonsense on words in a global scientific forum? By the way, Greek kynos
for dog derives (in the light of Magdalenian) for GYN for woman, telling us
that women adopted wolf pups a long time ago, and by and by domesticated them,
We have some evidence that this happened for the first time more than 60,000
years ago. Word bling bling can't replace knowledge about the past.

Daud Deden

2017-10-09 21:44:28 UTC

Franz, you rely on pictures, I do not. Your observations of myself and my work simply is not in my interest. If you focused only on the word sounds, it would be of higher interest to me. The rest is simply unmerited & misunderstood jealousy.

Franz Gnaedinger

2017-10-10 06:45:55 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
Franz, you rely on pictures, I do not. Your observations of myself and my work simply is not in my interest. If you focused only on the word sounds, it would be of higher interest to me. The rest is simply unmerited & misunderstood jealousy.

Yes, I must be jealous because you are a diode (sic) and I am not. In the name
of the others who are envious: what makes David a diode? You have been asked
several times but never given an answer. Before you popped up in here we have
been plagued for four years by someone who knows the absolute and complete
and total truth. Are you a parallel case? do you get your wisdom from a divine
source above?

Daud Deden

2017-10-10 15:04:32 UTC

Post by Franz Gnaedinger

---

Thread title: Paleo-etymology & ***@English, ***@Spanish, ***@Greek.

I'll ask & answer questions about that subject, because it is of interest to me.

The rest is secondary, for another day perhaps.

b***@ihug.co.nz

2017-10-06 22:11:49 UTC

quan3 in Mandarin. Where'd you get this one?
from Chinese of course
Actually :dog. Where did you get the "animal that pulls" story?
Actually komatik, more correctly qamutik

Post by Daud Deden
*qu(d)ongca may have become donkey in reference to load carrying in dry climes?

Dog's breakfast.

Daud Deden

2017-10-07 19:25:43 UTC

quan3 in Mandarin. Where'd you get this one?

Ross, what does the 3 mean in quan3? I think gow was dog in Archaic Chinese, but possibly a dialect, (hemp had similar sound).

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
from Chinese of course

Very likely, if same character then certainly. How about Korean?

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Actually :dog. Where did you get the "animal that pulls" story?

Not necessarily, according to "That Môniyâw Linguist" blog. (I forgot post#)
atimw: animal that pulls
misatim: horse
misatim: lion (Plains Cree dialect)

http://creeliteracy.org/for-language-learners/that-moniyaw-linguist-teaches-cree-verbs/

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Actually komatik, more correctly qamutik

Thanks, I know I've read komatim once, possibly a dialect. But yes, I've read komatik.
Perro ~ ferry ~ ari ~ carry ~ cargo, were dogs outboard motors pulling bowl boats? I think so. (Today, no people use them in that way.) Replaced first by bark canoes, then dugout log canoes, then reed/bamboo rafts, then by sails?

, brought by Visigoths from Morocco Atlas mountains? The Amazigt Berbers of that area use 5 dogs to hunt, 4 bite the 4 heels to stop prey, one clamps down on the throat to kill.

Post by Daud Deden
*qu(d)ongca may have become donkey in reference to load carrying in dry climes?

Dog's breakfast.

b***@ihug.co.nz

2017-10-07 22:49:49 UTC

quan3 in Mandarin. Where'd you get this one?

Ross, what does the 3 mean in quan3?

3rd tone. Could also be written quǎn.

I think gow was dog in Archaic Chinese, but possibly a dialect, (hemp had similar sound).

This list gives kkhwirʔ for Old Chinese "dog", whatever you make of that
phonetically.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Old_Chinese_Swadesh_list

Hundreds of old and new forms here, including some that look a bit like
your "gow":

http://stedt.berkeley.edu/~stedt-cgi/rootcanal.pl/gnis?t=dog

As you may know, the *ku form in Chinese have been seriously
proposed as a possible early loan from IE.

If your "ow" means something like English "ow", keep in mind
that [au] and [ua] are found all over the world in human
representations of dog barking, and in words for dog.

Hemp is ma2 in Mandarin, probably remembered as part of the quartet
distinguished by different tones: mother/hemp/horse/curse

You're not thinking of hemp~horse, are you?

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
from Chinese of course

Very likely, if same character then certainly. How about Korean?

Korean kae, don't know if that's Sino- or native.

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Actually :dog. Where did you get the "animal that pulls" story?

Not necessarily,

Not necessarily what?
I told you a fact (that atimw is just the ordinary
Cree word for dog). Then I asked you a question. Apparently the answer
is "from somebody's blog":

according to "That Môniyâw Linguist" blog. (I forgot post#)

Post by Daud Deden
atimw: animal that pulls
misatim: horse
misatim: lion (Plains Cree dialect)

These are of no interest except to show that the Cree have named some new
large quadrupeds that have come to their notice by analogy with the dog.

Post by Daud Deden
http://creeliteracy.org/for-language-learners/that-moniyaw-linguist-teaches-cree-verbs/

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Actually komatik, more correctly qamutik

Thanks, I know I've read komatim once, possibly a dialect. But yes, I've read komatik.
Perro ~ ferry ~ ari ~ carry ~ cargo, were dogs outboard motors pulling bowl boats? I think so. (Today, no people use them in that way.) Replaced first by bark canoes, then dugout log canoes, then reed/bamboo rafts, then by sails?
, brought by Visigoths from Morocco Atlas mountains? The Amazigt Berbers of that area use 5 dogs to hunt, 4 bite the 4 heels to stop prey, one clamps down on the throat to kill.

Post by Daud Deden
*qu(d)ongca may have become donkey in reference to load carrying in dry climes?

Dog's breakfast.

Daud Deden

2017-10-08 00:40:11 UTC

quan3 in Mandarin. Where'd you get this one?

Ross, what does the 3 mean in quan3?

3rd tone. Could also be written quǎn.

Ok.

I think gow was dog in Archaic Chinese, but possibly a dialect, (hemp had similar sound).

This list gives kkhwirʔ for Old Chinese "dog", whatever you make of that
phonetically.

https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/Appendix:Old_Chinese_Swadesh_list

Hundreds of old and new forms here, including some that look a bit like
your "gow":

http://stedt.berkeley.edu/~stedt-cgi/rootcanal.pl/gnis?t=dog

As you may know, the *ku form in Chinese have been seriously
proposed as a possible early loan from IE.

I'm holding on for "Phu Quoc" ~ kuon/kuan etc. Gow didn't fit well.

If your "ow" means something like English "ow", keep in mind
that [au] and [ua] are found all over the world in human
representations of dog barking, and in words for dog.

Yes, bowwow vs miaomiao.

Hemp is ma2 in Mandarin, probably remembered as part of the quartet
distinguished by different tones: mother/hemp/horse/curse
-
Ok, maybe so. Stallion = meat; mare = ma=mother=m.udder=milk.
-
You're not thinking of hemp~horse, are you?
-
No. Were early horse ropes of hemp? Mongols rode on horse-mane/tail saddle blankets, prevented saddle sores.
-

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
from Chinese of course

Very likely, if same character then certainly. How about Korean?

Korean kae, don't know if that's Sino- or native.

Post by b***@ihug.co.nz
Actually :dog. Where did you get the "animal that pulls" story?

Not necessarily,

Not necessarily what?
-
Specifically only dog. Possibly human (Athabaskans (west of Cree, same climate) in soft high snow, dogs hunted, guarded, rode, didn't pull.)
-
I told you a fact (that atimw is just the ordinary
Cree word for dog). Then I asked you a question. Apparently the answer
is "from somebody's blog":
-
Yes, a Cree teacher/linguist.
-
according to "That Môniyâw Linguist" blog. (I forgot post#)

Post by Daud Deden
atimw: animal that pulls

-
A Cree language specialist didn't specify dog only, so I have reasonable doubt. I prefer atimw=dog, it matches komatik & ari better.

Post by Daud Deden
misatim: horse
misatim: lion (Plains Cree dialect)

These are of no interest except to show that the Cree have named some new
large quadrupeds that have come to their notice by analogy with the dog.
-
Yes, but lion may refer to native mountain lion-puma-cougar?

I use ~ to mean approx. or similar to, but not verified exactly identical. Eg. A near-cognate that might actually be cognate but uncertain.

- show quoted text -

Yusuf B Gursey

2017-10-09 11:20:05 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/sci.lang/D6Qki62doIM/ebVXe-wOMUMJ;context-place=forum/sci.lang
I will put my own opinion here.
It is claimed generally that these two are not cognates but coincidences.
My claim is that they evolved in parallel from an older form, approximately
*qu(d)ongca. Speculative source of dog domestication: Phu Quoc island, Viet
Nam, near Sihanoukville, Cambodia, before 15ka, by indigenes, and were bred
between island and mainland at first, initially with hands holding the
mane-ruff and tail, eventually selective breeding producing the ("Rhodesian"
& Phu Quoc) ridgeback dog along with other types of dogs throughout South
East Asia.

Whoever doemsticated the dog named it, and the name spread as domestic
dogs spread.

Post by Daud Deden
Atlas mountains? The Amazigt Berbers of that area use 5 dogs to hunt, 4 bite
the 4 heels to stop prey, one clamps down on the throat to kill.
*qu(d)ongca may have become donkey in reference to load carrying in dry climes?

Daud Deden

2017-10-10 15:05:30 UTC

Whoever doemsticated the dog named it, and the name spread as domestic
dogs spread.

I agree.

Daud Deden

2017-10-10 18:57:51 UTC

Whoever doemsticated the dog named it, and the name spread as domestic
dogs spread.

I agree.

Yusuf B Gursey

2017-10-11 00:55:45 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/sci.lang/D6Qki62doIM/ebVXe-wOMUMJ;context-place=forum/sci.lang
I will put my own opinion here.
It is claimed generally that these two are not cognates but coincidences.
My claim is that they evolved in parallel from an older form,
approximately *qu(d)ongca. Speculative source of dog domestication: Phu
Quoc island, Viet Nam, near Sihanoukville, Cambodia, before 15ka, by
indigenes, and were bred for pulling small
mainland at first, initially with hands holding the mane-ruff and tail,
eventually selective breeding producing the ("Rhodesian" & Phu Quoc)
ridgeback dog along with other types of dogs throughout South East Asia.

Whoever doemsticated the dog named it, and the name spread as domestic
dogs spread.

I agree.

Yes. sobaka is from an Iranian langauge (probably NW variety)

Turkish köpek (usually domestic, it < ıt feral; it is vulgar language)

Uzbek kopak "domestic dog", it "feral dog" IIRC

These köpek etc. are the "Kentum" versions of sobaka

Arabic kalb- -b is an Afroasiatic "animal ending"

Most AA languages have kVl- others kVn- variety
Classical Persian sipar

Post by Daud Deden
Morocco Atlas mountains? The Amazigt Berbers of that area use 5 dogs to
hunt, 4 bite the 4 heels to stop prey, one clamps down on the throat to
kill.
*qu(d)ongca may have become donkey in reference to load carrying in dry climes?

Daud Deden

2017-10-11 21:06:27 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/sci.lang/D6Qki62doIM/ebVXe-wOMUMJ;context-place=forum/sci.lang
I will put my own opinion here.
It is claimed generally that these two are not cognates but coincidences.
My claim is that they evolved in parallel from an older form,
approximately *qu(d)ongca. Speculative source of dog domestication: Phu
Quoc island, Viet Nam, near Sihanoukville, Cambodia, before 15ka, by
indigenes, and were bred for pulling small
mainland at first, initially with hands holding the mane-ruff and tail,
eventually selective breeding producing the ("Rhodesian" & Phu Quoc)
ridgeback dog along with other types of dogs throughout South East Asia.

Whoever doemsticated the dog named it, and the name spread as domestic
dogs spread.

I agree.

Yes. sobaka is from an Iranian langauge (probably NW variety)
Turkish köpek (usually domestic, it < ıt feral; it is vulgar language)
Uzbek kopak "domestic dog", it "feral dog" IIRC
These köpek etc. are the "Kentum" versions of sobaka
Arabic kalb- -b is an Afroasiatic "animal ending"
Most AA languages have kVl- others kVn- variety

Thanks Yusuf. So Turkic & Russian canid terms linked to Iranian.

I was wondering about the rhythm of sobaka/kopek & gudaga/***@Mbabaram

but I don't see anything significant.

*(sk).o.(bp).a.ka vs.*(gk).u.(dt).a.(gk).a

xyua/sieve/show + baka/paca/dag.a/tak.a

Small point: I've heard of show dog and dog show, but never a hound show or show hound. Is it likely that dog shows were events where best hounds were selected and bred heavily (studs), while others were castrated or even eaten, perhaps during harvest festivals?

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Classical Persian sipar

sipar ~ xy.mbuatl ~ shy/skin/sky + par(asol/isal/***@India)/mat (portable)
[related to kufa.r.igolu / guphar(wood) + iglu], daybowl vs mongolu moonbowl

Yusuf B Gursey

2017-10-16 02:06:19 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/sci.lang/D6Qki62doIM/ebVXe-wOMUMJ;context-place=forum/sci.lang
I will put my own opinion here.
It is claimed generally that these two are not cognates but coincidences.
My claim is that they evolved in parallel from an older form,
Phu Quoc island, Viet Nam, near Sihanoukville, Cambodia, before 15ka,
by indigenes, and were bred for pulling small
and mainland at first, initially with hands holding the mane-ruff and
tail, eventually selective breeding producing the ("Rhodesian" & Phu
Quoc) ridgeback dog along with other types of dogs throughout South
East Asia.

Whoever doemsticated the dog named it, and the name spread as domestic
dogs spread.

I agree.

Yes. sobaka is from an Iranian langauge (probably NW variety)
Turkish köpek (usually domestic, it < ıt feral; it is vulgar language)
Uzbek kopak "domestic dog", it "feral dog" IIRC
These köpek etc. are the "Kentum" versions of sobaka
Arabic kalb- -b is an Afroasiatic "animal ending"
Most AA languages have kVl- others kVn- variety

Thanks Yusuf. So Turkic & Russian canid terms linked to Iranian.

Or the Turkic term came from a Pre-Iranian source, as the Iranian word
has s- but k- is older. Think Kentum / Satem

At any rate, words describing animals are easily spread across
linguistic boundaries. The group that sees the animal or domesticates
or breeds it names it.

Post by Daud Deden
but I don't see anything significant.

That's a change.

Post by Daud Deden
*(sk).o.(bp).a.ka vs.*(gk).u.(dt).a.(gk).a
xyua/sieve/show + baka/paca/dag.a/tak.a
Small point: I've heard of show dog and dog show, but never a hound show or
show hound. Is it likely that dog shows were events where best hounds were
selected and bred heavily (studs), while others were castrated or even eaten,
perhaps during harvest festivals?

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Classical Persian sipar

[related to kufa.r.igolu / guphar(wood) + iglu], daybowl vs mongolu moonbowl

Peter T. Daniels

2017-10-16 02:19:35 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/sci.lang/D6Qki62doIM/ebVXe-wOMUMJ;context-place=forum/sci.lang
I will put my own opinion here.
It is claimed generally that these two are not cognates but coincidences.
My claim is that they evolved in parallel from an older form,
Phu Quoc island, Viet Nam, near Sihanoukville, Cambodia, before 15ka,
by indigenes, and were bred for pulling small
and mainland at first, initially with hands holding the mane-ruff and
tail, eventually selective breeding producing the ("Rhodesian" & Phu
Quoc) ridgeback dog along with other types of dogs throughout South
East Asia.

Whoever doemsticated the dog named it, and the name spread as domestic
dogs spread.

I agree.

Yes. sobaka is from an Iranian langauge (probably NW variety)
Turkish köpek (usually domestic, it < ıt feral; it is vulgar language)
Uzbek kopak "domestic dog", it "feral dog" IIRC
These köpek etc. are the "Kentum" versions of sobaka
Arabic kalb- -b is an Afroasiatic "animal ending"
Most AA languages have kVl- others kVn- variety

Thanks Yusuf. So Turkic & Russian canid terms linked to Iranian.

Or the Turkic term came from a Pre-Iranian source, as the Iranian word
has s- but k- is older. Think Kentum / Satem

That lets in Tocharian.

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
At any rate, words describing animals are easily spread across
linguistic boundaries. The group that sees the animal or domesticates
or breeds it names it.

Post by Daud Deden
but I don't see anything significant.

That's a change.

Daud Deden

2017-10-16 18:14:44 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
https://groups.google.com/forum/#!msg/sci.lang/D6Qki62doIM/ebVXe-wOMUMJ;context-place=forum/sci.lang
I will put my own opinion here.
It is claimed generally that these two are not cognates but coincidences.
My claim is that they evolved in parallel from an older form,
Phu Quoc island, Viet Nam, near Sihanoukville, Cambodia, before 15ka,
by indigenes, and were bred for pulling small
and mainland at first, initially with hands holding the mane-ruff and
tail, eventually selective breeding producing the ("Rhodesian" & Phu
Quoc) ridgeback dog along with other types of dogs throughout South
East Asia.

Whoever doemsticated the dog named it, and the name spread as domestic
dogs spread.

I agree.

Yes. sobaka is from an Iranian langauge (probably NW variety)
Turkish köpek (usually domestic, it < ıt feral; it is vulgar language)
Uzbek kopak "domestic dog", it "feral dog" IIRC
These köpek etc. are the "Kentum" versions of sobaka
Arabic kalb- -b is an Afroasiatic "animal ending"
Most AA languages have kVl- others kVn- variety

Thanks Yusuf. So Turkic & Russian canid terms linked to Iranian.

Or the Turkic term came from a Pre-Iranian source, as the Iranian word
has s- but k- is older. Think Kentum / Satem

PIE root *ḱm̥tóm, "hundred"

300ka - 50ka, no-one had that word, nor a dog.

kmtom ~ xyuamb.uat-xyuamb ~ comb.ine-comb ~ hands/10 bind-tie-times hands/10 = 100

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
At any rate, words describing animals are easily spread across
linguistic boundaries. The group that sees the animal or domesticates
or breeds it names it.

Only if it is distinct from others similar. Deliberate breeding produced deliberate naming.

Post by Daud Deden
but I don't see anything significant.

That's a change.

I hear much significant. But I don't know what languages were spoken early at Phu Quoc.

Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Classical Persian sipar

[related to kufa.r.igolu / guphar(wood) + iglu], daybowl vs mongolu moonbowl

Daud Deden

2017-10-18 12:03:30 UTC

Yusuf, I missed this nice parallel:

From Qu'oc/Ku'on/Qu'an,

-Turk/Russ/Farsi
Ko(p)ak->s(ob)ak(a)->sag

-Bari/Mbabaram
Ku(t)aka->(gu)dag(a)->dog

Now I need 'dog' in Samre Pear, Chamic, Hani, Yali, Bali.

Daud Deden

2017-10-19 20:54:58 UTC

I found this:

***@Akkadian:head
***@Akkadian:dog

Also found this very interesting bit:

"The Hebrew word for "help" is עזר (ezer, underlined in red above). The first letter in this word is an "ayin". In modern Hebrew this letter is silent but the ancient pronunciation was a soft "g" (gh) as in the word "ring". This word would have been pronounced "ghezer".

The Ugarit word Ugarit gezer (gezer) means "young man" and is spelled the same as ghezer except for the first letter which is a "gimel". " http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/bible_ugarit.html

So ayin was "ng" like ring, not like gold.

Post by Daud Deden
From Qu'oc/Ku'on/Qu'an,
-Turk/Russ/Farsi
Ko(p)ak->s(ob)ak(a)->sag
-Bari/Mbabaram
Ku(t)aka->(gu)dag(a)->dog
Now I need 'dog' in Samre Pear, Chamic, Hani, Yali, Bali.

Peter T. Daniels

2017-10-19 21:44:21 UTC

No, Sumerian. PLEASE learn to use the sources, or learn something about the
languages you go fishing in.
No, kalbu. Same in every other Semitic language.

That is utterly wrong. There was a pronunciation tradition, very limited in
extent, where `ayin had somehow turned into "ng." It never spread to other
traditions of reading Hebrew, and it has NO warrant in "ancient pronunciation."
It was pronounced as it is in Arabic today, as a voiced pharyngeal fricative.

Post by Daud Deden
The Ugarit word Ugarit gezer (gezer) means "young man" and is spelled the same as ghezer except for the first letter which is a "gimel". " http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/bible_ugarit.html

No idea what that's supposed to mean. (For one thing, there's no "e" in Ugaritic.)

Post by Daud Deden
So ayin was "ng" like ring, not like gold.

Daud Deden

2017-10-19 22:33:44 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
No, Sumerian. PLEASE learn to use the sources, or learn something about the
languages you go fishing in.

I copied straight from source, edited for brevity.

Post by Peter T. Daniels
No, kalbu. Same in every other Semitic language.

No idea what that's supposed to mean. (For one thing, there's no "e" in Ugaritic.)

Post by Daud Deden
So ayin was "ng" like ring, not like gold.

Peter T. Daniels

2017-10-20 03:05:47 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
No, Sumerian. PLEASE learn to use the sources, or learn something about the
languages you go fishing in.

I copied straight from source, edited for brevity.

If "source" told you that SAG is Akkadian, then stop using "source."

Post by Peter T. Daniels
No, kalbu. Same in every other Semitic language.

No idea what that's supposed to mean. (For one thing, there's no "e" in Ugaritic.)

Post by Daud Deden
So ayin was "ng" like ring, not like gold.

Arnaud Fournet

2017-10-20 07:35:46 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
No, Sumerian. PLEASE learn to use the sources, or learn something about the
languages you go fishing in.

I copied straight from source, edited for brevity.

It seems you're too incompetent to be able to use the sources you read.
A.

Arnaud Fournet

2017-10-20 07:47:28 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
No, Sumerian. PLEASE learn to use the sources, or learn something about the
languages you go fishing in.
No, kalbu. Same in every other Semitic language.

Actually kalab is the construct form:
kalbu(m) s^a s^arri(m) "the king's dog"
kalab s^arri(m) (constructed state)
but I'm afraid all this flies lightyears above what Toddler Daud can understand.
A.

Peter T. Daniels

2017-10-20 13:05:16 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
No, Sumerian. PLEASE learn to use the sources, or learn something about the
languages you go fishing in.
No, kalbu. Same in every other Semitic language.

kalbu(m) s^a s^arri(m) "the king's dog"
kalab s^arri(m) (constructed state)
but I'm afraid all this flies lightyears above what Toddler Daud can understand.

The second vowel in kalab is merely epenthetic -- he isn't able to glance at grammars of Semitic languages.

Arnaud Fournet

2017-10-20 16:28:48 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
No, Sumerian. PLEASE learn to use the sources, or learn something about the
languages you go fishing in.
No, kalbu. Same in every other Semitic language.

kalbu(m) s^a s^arri(m) "the king's dog"
kalab s^arri(m) (constructed state)
but I'm afraid all this flies lightyears above what Toddler Daud can understand.

The second vowel in kalab is merely epenthetic -- he isn't able to glance at grammars of Semitic languages.

possibly so, but as usual, you PTD is wrong.
You claim kalab does not exist, and it does.
Now you contradict yourself.
A.

Peter T. Daniels

2017-10-20 17:07:54 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
No, Sumerian. PLEASE learn to use the sources, or learn something about the
languages you go fishing in.
No, kalbu. Same in every other Semitic language.

kalbu(m) s^a s^arri(m) "the king's dog"
kalab s^arri(m) (constructed state)
but I'm afraid all this flies lightyears above what Toddler Daud can understand.

The second vowel in kalab is merely epenthetic -- he isn't able to glance at grammars of Semitic languages.

possibly so, but as usual, you PTD is wrong.
You claim kalab does not exist, and it does.
Now you contradict yourself.

I never said anything of the sort.

If you can't tell the difference between a citation form and an inflection,
you're even more ignorant than we thought.

Daud Deden

2017-10-20 16:59:28 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
No, Sumerian. PLEASE learn to use the sources, or learn something about the
languages you go fishing in.
No, kalbu. Same in every other Semitic language.

kalbu(m) s^a s^arri(m) "the king's dog"
kalab s^arri(m) (constructed state)
but I'm afraid all this flies lightyears above what Toddler Daud can understand.

The second vowel in kalab is merely epenthetic -- he isn't able to glance at grammars of Semitic languages.

***@Aztec: dog
k(e/a)l(e/a)(b/v/u)@Semitic: dog (+m = plural?)

Xyuambuatlua <-> (permutations)

ezpz

Yusuf B Gursey

2017-10-21 03:25:58 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
No, Sumerian. PLEASE learn to use the sources, or learn something about
the languages you go fishing in.
No, kalbu. Same in every other Semitic language.

kalbu(m) s^a s^arri(m) "the king's dog"
kalab s^arri(m) (constructed state)
but I'm afraid all this flies lightyears above what Toddler Daud can understand.

The second vowel in kalab is merely epenthetic -- he isn't able to glance at
grammars of Semitic languages.

The -b in Semitic kalb- is an "animal ending". One finds -b (mostly
wild animals), -r. -l (mostly domestic animals)

kalb- is the stem. -u- indicates the nominative. final -m is the
"mimation", the termination of the case ending that drops in the
construct state.

Post by Daud Deden
Xyuambuatlua <-> (permutations)
ezpz

Daud Deden

2017-10-21 20:18:19 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
No, Sumerian. PLEASE learn to use the sources, or learn something about
the languages you go fishing in.
No, kalbu. Same in every other Semitic language.

kalbu(m) s^a s^arri(m) "the king's dog"
kalab s^arri(m) (constructed state)
but I'm afraid all this flies lightyears above what Toddler Daud can understand.

The second vowel in kalab is merely epenthetic -- he isn't able to glance at
grammars of Semitic languages.

The -b in Semitic kalb- is an "animal ending". One finds -b (mostly
wild animals), -r. -l (mostly domestic animals)
kalb- is the stem. -u- indicates the nominative. final -m is the
"mimation", the termination of the case ending that drops in the
construct state.

Thanks Yusuf, I don't understand the details, but appreciate that.

Post by Daud Deden
Xyuambuatlua <-> (permutations)
ezpz

Daud Deden

2017-10-25 15:55:29 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
No, Sumerian. PLEASE learn to use the sources, or learn something about the
languages you go fishing in.
No, kalbu. Same in every other Semitic language.

kalbu(m) s^a s^arri(m) "the king's dog"
kalab s^arri(m) (constructed state)
but I'm afraid all this flies lightyears above what Toddler Daud can understand.

The second vowel in kalab is merely epenthetic -- he isn't able to glance at grammars of Semitic languages.

Xyuambuatlua <-> (permutations)

So possibly xolo(tl)@Aztec:dog ~ kele(b/v/bu)@Semitic:dog
-
Now here's of interest:

1st recall:
-Bhimbetke cave (wall pictures) at Narmada River, Central India, near 2 fossil Pygmy skeletons est. age 80ka + & 300ka;
-Madjebembe Cave, Queensland, Austl, wall pictures est. age ~65ka
-***@Mbuti:body paint ~ pimple/***@Heb:swelling/pimp/ink/primp/pomp/font

---

Assyrian cuneiform clay tablets as they were discovered inside a clay vessel at the Bronze Age city site of Bassetki (Mitanni, Assyrian, Kurdistan)
-
Note: Bassetki ~ Basenji dog of Congo.
-

It is not yet known if the tablets contain business, legal, or religious records. "Our philologist Dr. Betina Faist has deciphered one small fragment of a clay tablet. It mentions a temple to the goddess Gula, suggesting that we may be looking at a religious context," he adds.

Goddess Gula and her dog:

https://www.google.com/search?q=the+goddess+gula+and+her+dog&safe=active&tbm=isch&source=iu&pf=m&ictx=1&fir=nNBJNedmNZwGHM%253A%252Cq7av5KM4W9z9tM%252C_&usg=__Cn50XVpq_To6CWbM2ZgjOE_XnQU%3D&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjkrZipjozXAhULQyYKHUx-D5cQ9QEIOjAG#imgrc=nNBJNedmNZwGHM:

https://www.pinterest.com/pin/315744623851606349/?autologin=true

Picture of Basenji dog of Congo: http://dogtime.com/dog-breeds/basenji#/slide/1

Does anyone agree that Gula's dog portrayed a Basenji, and that breed ended up in Congo with Bantu agriculturalists via trade, along with Asian domestic crops?

Note: The KhoiSan (Hottentot) hunting dog aka Rhodesian ridgeback is called Ari.

Note: Ari is lion in Hebrew
Note: Ari is dog in India (Ari, Pariah, Pye dog).
Note: Ari appears to refer to sunny/yellow-orange-ochre/tawny/dawn/***@Arabic:fur-hair zone re. sunburn/aura/aurora/***@Malay:day/***@Malay:sun (bright eye)/***@Malay:tiger
Note: lion and ridgeback share mane/ruff

The intense work of reading and translating the 93 cuneiform tablets will begin in Germany

Read more at https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com/2017/10/archaeologists-uncover-cuneiform.html#33fyPj8O7kLjoolb.99

In recent months, the researchers excavated layers of settlement dating from the Early, Middle, and Late Bronze Age, as well as from the subsequent Assyrian period. "Our finds provide evidence that this early urban center in northern Mesopotamia was settled almost continuously from approximately 3000 to 600 BCE. That indicates that Bassetki was of key significance on important trade routes," Pfälzner says.

Read more at https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com/2017/10/archaeologists-uncover-cuneiform.html#33fyPj8O7kLjoolb.99

Read more at https://archaeologynewsnetwork.blogspot.com/2017/10/archaeologists-uncover-cuneiform.html#33fyPj8O7kLjoolb.99

b***@ihug.co.nz

2017-10-25 20:09:58 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
No, Sumerian. PLEASE learn to use the sources, or learn something about the
languages you go fishing in.
No, kalbu. Same in every other Semitic language.

kalbu(m) s^a s^arri(m) "the king's dog"
kalab s^arri(m) (constructed state)
but I'm afraid all this flies lightyears above what Toddler Daud can understand.

The second vowel in kalab is merely epenthetic -- he isn't able to glance at grammars of Semitic languages.

Xyuambuatlua <-> (permutations)

-
-Bhimbetke cave (wall pictures) at Narmada River, Central India, near 2 fossil Pygmy skeletons est. age 80ka + & 300ka;
-Madjebembe Cave, Queensland, Austl, wall pictures est. age ~65ka
---
Assyrian cuneiform clay tablets as they were discovered inside a clay vessel at the Bronze Age city site of Bassetki (Mitanni, Assyrian, Kurdistan)
-
Note: Bassetki ~ Basenji dog of Congo.
-
It is not yet known if the tablets contain business, legal, or religious records. "Our philologist Dr. Betina Faist has deciphered one small fragment of a clay tablet. It mentions a temple to the goddess Gula, suggesting that we may be looking at a religious context," he adds.
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/315744623851606349/?autologin=true
Picture of Basenji dog of Congo: http://dogtime.com/dog-breeds/basenji#/slide/1

Daud Deden

2017-10-25 21:01:12 UTC

Assyrian cuneiform clay tablets as they were discovered inside a clay vessel at the Bronze Age city site of Bassetki (Mitanni, Assyrian, Kurdistan)

Post by Daud Deden
-
Note: Bassetki ~ Basenji dog of Congo.
-
It is not yet known if the tablets contain business, legal, or religious records. "Our philologist Dr. Betina Faist has deciphered one small fragment of a clay tablet. It mentions a temple to the goddess Gula, suggesting that we may be looking at a religious context," he adds.
https://www.pinterest.com/pin/315744623851606349/?autologin=true
Picture of Basenji dog of Congo: http://dogtime.com/dog-breeds/basenji#/slide/1

Interesting dogs. (My uncle used to own one.) According to Wiki:

<<The name comes from the Lingala language of the Congo, mbwá na basɛ́nzi which means "village dogs".>>

So since mbwá definitely means "dog" in Lingala, it would appear that
basɛ́nzi means "villages". (I'm unable to confirm this from online resources
on Lingala.)
But wait! There's more!
<<The Azande and Mangbetu people from the northeastern Congo region
describe Basenjis, in the local Lingala language, as mbwá na basɛ́nzi. Translated, this means "dogs of the savages", or "dogs of the villagers".
In the Congo, the Basenji is also known as "dog of the bush."... The word basɛ́nzi itself is the plural form of mosɛ́nzi. In Swahili, another Bantu language, from East Africa, mbwa shenzi translates to “wild dog”.>>

Aha! Little Swahili-English dictionary translates -shenzi as "uncivilized".
-
Thanks Ross. 'African wild dogs' are an entirely different species of canid, genetically distant from basenjis and their close kin - grey wolves. I'm not sure which one is meant in Ki-Swahili.

Mu- individual
Ba- plural/communal

'Dog of villagers' sounds accurate, 'savages' is the slang that non-villagers (eg. Pygmies) use to describe villagers. Efe Pygmies often borrow dogs from their Bantu owners, Mbuti Pygmies traditionally did not use dogs. Basenji is a district in the Congo.

Daud Deden

2017-10-26 23:10:57 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
Assyrian cuneiform clay tablets as they were discovered inside a clay vessel at the Bronze Age city site of Bassetki (Mitanni, Assyrian, Kurdistan)

<<The name comes from the Lingala language of the Congo, mbwá na basɛ́nzi which means "village dogs".>>
So since mbwá definitely means "dog" in Lingala, it would appear that
basɛ́nzi means "villages". (I'm unable to confirm this from online resources
on Lingala.)
But wait! There's more!
<<The Azande and Mangbetu people from the northeastern Congo region
describe Basenjis, in the local Lingala language, as mbwá na basɛ́nzi. Translated, this means "dogs of the savages", or "dogs of the villagers".
In the Congo, the Basenji is also known as "dog of the bush."... The word basɛ́nzi itself is the plural form of mosɛ́nzi. In Swahili, another Bantu language, from East Africa, mbwa shenzi translates to “wild dog”.>>
Aha! Little Swahili-English dictionary translates -shenzi as "uncivilized".
-
Thanks Ross. 'African wild dogs' are an entirely different species of canid, genetically distant from basenjis and their close kin - grey wolves. I'm not sure which one is meant in Ki-Swahili.
Mu- individual
Ba- plural/communal
'Dog of villagers' sounds accurate, 'savages' is the slang that non-villagers (eg. Pygmies) use to describe villagers. Efe Pygmies often borrow dogs from their Bantu owners, Mbuti Pygmies traditionally did not use dogs. Basenji is a district in the Congo.

Errata: "Nyama" (animal), rather than 'savages' above.

Daud Deden

2017-11-14 22:31:23 UTC

MP: "Serbs say "ker" for dog. Both, Croats and Serbs say "pas" for dog (official language). In Zagreb, locally, we say "cucak" [tsutsak] for dog".

Daud Deden

2017-11-15 20:08:54 UTC

***@Serb.slg:dog ~ ***@English ~ kelv/***@Hebrew ~ ***@Aztec. ***@Croat: dog ~ gudaga/sobak; ***@SerbCroat: dog ~ perro-burro-ferry-***@India: coracle, pariah-pye dog- ***@KhoiSan: ridgeback

b***@ihug.co.nz

2017-11-15 23:40:49 UTC

"India" here means Tamil (also parical)

Daud Deden

2017-11-16 17:20:17 UTC

Parisal, parical, perical, parasol all from arigolu(oldest, inverse of
***@Mbuti: domi-cile), ***@Hindi~***@Arabic ~***@Hebrew:ark~***@English:(en)du-ua(tr) vs boat:ua-ua(tl/ndu) cf wahwah/ua-***@Cuban: bus; cf ***@Lake Malawi Chichewa Bantu: dugout canoe; all linked to ferry/bear/fare/!hxaro@!kung/xyambuatla

Daud Deden

2017-11-16 17:31:07 UTC

***@NJ:

"ἄγγος ***@Greek: "vessel, vat" etc:
Etymology = Uncertain; many words for "vessel" are mentioned by Homer but are loaned from outside Indo-European, possibly Near Eastern.
ἄγγος • (ángos) n (genitive ἄγγεος or ἄγγους); third declension
vessel (to hold liquids), vat, pitcher, bucket, pail, wine-bowl
(for dry substances) cradle, cinerary urn, casket, coffin
(of body parts) womb, stomach"

Angos~ !hxaro ~ oXyuambuatlua

Arnaud Fournet

2017-11-19 16:56:45 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
Etymology = Uncertain; many words for "vessel" are mentioned by Homer but are loaned from outside Indo-European, possibly Near Eastern.
ἄγγος • (ángos) n (genitive ἄγγεος or ἄγγους); third declension
vessel (to hold liquids), vat, pitcher, bucket, pail, wine-bowl
(for dry substances) cradle, cinerary urn, casket, coffin
(of body parts) womb, stomach"

This word is probably of Hurrian origin. Cf. angurini and angunni.
A.

Daud Deden

2017-11-19 19:19:33 UTC

This word is probably of Hurrian origin. Cf. angurini and angunni.
A.

Those words "should" match with coracle/***@India/qufa/kuphos/cup.
(t/q/x)yambuatlaya/ndjuambuangualua daylight-(mon)golu-> ari-bungalo ~ angu(ni/tly) ... I'd expect Hurrian to match Hindi topa, teba Hebrew not tamil parical.

Daud Deden

2017-11-16 20:47:49 UTC

Pas ~ basenji ~ Basetki, Kurdistan trade center picture of goddess Gula with curly-tailed dog.

8ka engravings Arabia leashed hunting (Canaan-Basenji) dogs

http://cuevadelapileta.blogspot.com/2017/11/these-may-be-worlds-first-images-of.html?m=1

Arnaud Fournet

2017-11-19 16:59:21 UTC

MP: "Serbs say "ker" for dog. Both, Croats and Serbs say "pas" for dog (official language). In Zagreb, locally, we say "cucak" [tsutsak] for dog".

cucak "dog" => is this a Turkic word?
What is the usually received origin of this word?

Daud Deden

2017-11-19 17:10:39 UTC

I don't know, to both comments.

Yusuf B Gursey

2017-11-19 19:49:09 UTC

MP: "Serbs say "ker" for dog. Both, Croats and Serbs say "pas" for dog
(official language). In Zagreb, locally, we say "cucak" [tsutsak] for dog".

cucak "dog" => is this a Turkic word?
What is the usually received origin of this word?

IIRC it is Khotan (?), kucha, perhaps brought by Bulgahrs or Alans.
Turkish has kuçu kuçu for calling a dog.

Daud Deden

2017-11-22 00:18:45 UTC

4ka Russian dog sacrifices - annual winter killing of a few old dogs may have been part of a boy's transition to hunter-warrior adult

https://arstechnica.com/science/2017/11/archaeologists-find-mysterious-4000-year-old-dog-sacrifices-in-russia/

Not used as food, but possibly fur coat, hoodie?

Daud Deden

2017-11-22 00:26:34 UTC

Kutaka (Mbabaram Austl) dog
Kutyuska (Saami Finn) dog
Kuon (Greek) dog
Ken (Japan) dog
Canis, canem (Latin) dog

Note below from a Hungarian visiting Lapps of Finland:

"Otherwise saamis are quite distant lingusistically but when i was there and an old woman are calling her dog "kuuutya", "kutyuska." "

b***@ihug.co.nz

2017-11-22 01:08:23 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
Kutaka (Mbabaram Austl) dog

No, that's Proto-Paman. The Mbabaram word, which develops regularly
from it, is dɔk.

Post by Daud Deden
Kutyuska (Saami Finn) dog

Possibly from Slavic. See discussion of this and similar Uralic
words at
https://tuhat.helsinki.fi/portal/files/54165300/DogWolfFU2004Koivulehto60.pdf

Post by Daud Deden
Kuon (Greek) dog
Ken (Japan) dog
Canis, canem (Latin) dog
"Otherwise saamis are quite distant lingusistically but when i was there and an old woman are calling her dog "kuuutya", "kutyuska." "

b***@ihug.co.nz

2017-11-22 01:11:20 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
Kutaka (Mbabaram Austl) dog

No, that's Proto-Paman. The Mbabaram word, which develops regularly
from it, is dɔk.

Post by Daud Deden
Kutyuska (Saami Finn) dog

Possibly from Slavic. See discussion of this and similar Uralic
words at
https://tuhat.helsinki.fi/portal/files/54165300/DogWolfFU2004Koivulehto60.pdf

Post by Daud Deden
Kuon (Greek) dog
Ken (Japan) dog

From Chinese, of course. Why not cite Mandarin quǎn?

Post by Daud Deden
Canis, canem (Latin) dog
"Otherwise saamis are quite distant lingusistically but when i was there and an old woman are calling her dog "kuuutya", "kutyuska." "

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

2017-11-22 01:18:09 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
Kutaka (Mbabaram Austl) dog

No, that's Proto-Paman. The Mbabaram word, which develops regularly
from it, is dɔk.

Post by Daud Deden
Kutyuska (Saami Finn) dog

Possibly from Slavic. See discussion of this and similar Uralic
words at
https://tuhat.helsinki.fi/portal/files/54165300/DogWolfFU2004Koivulehto60.pdf

And obviously, the real Saami word is a cognate of older Finnish peni (still found in "penikka, pentu" = puppy).

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

2017-11-22 01:16:33 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
Kutaka (Mbabaram Austl) dog
Kutyuska (Saami Finn) dog

There is no such language as "Saami Finn". And the Finnish word for dog does not sound anything like "kutyuska".

Daud Deden

2017-11-22 12:33:38 UTC

MB:
There is no such language as "Saami Finn". And the Finnish word for dog does not sound anything like "kutyuska".

Nor is there as Mbabaram Austl.

Daud Deden

2018-02-08 22:20:16 UTC

***@Pawnee, Ricaree: dog

Daud Deden

2018-02-09 22:34:23 UTC

-

Ember-mobile-animate(embryonic spark of life)

***@Cree: animal that pulls, dog
anima(te/l)
***@Sumerian: wild cow (general ungulate?)
***@Mbuti: animal
(b)***@Malay: animal
(b)***@Malay: star
***@Malay: spark.le (life-ember?)
(b)***@Malay: daughter
(b)***@Malay: wife

(b)ntya(ng/mua) anima?

anxax/ashakish
***@Pawnee, Ricaree: dog
***@Malay: dog
ajax from Greek Aiax/Aias, from aia earth.

In Mycenean Greek Ma-ka (transliterated as Ma-ga, "Mother Gaia") also contains the root ga-

In Greek mythology, Gaia (/ˈɡeɪ.ə/ or /ˈɡaɪ.ə/ from Ancient Greek Γαῖα, a poetical form of Γῆ Gē, "land" or "earth"[1]),

b***@ihug.co.nz

2018-02-09 23:27:09 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
-
Ember-mobile-animate(embryonic spark of life)

just "dog" (I called you on this one before)

Post by Daud Deden
anima(te/l)

PIE *anə- 'breathe'
Proto-Bantu *ǹɲàmà 'meat; animal'
'diamond'
from Arabic
PAN *binahi 'woman, wife'

Post by Daud Deden
(b)ntya(ng/mua) anima?

Back to word-squashing, is it? So what language would this
be a word of? The same one as *xyuam(bua)tla and variations
thereof? And why no asterisk? How about 'diamond dog [or bitch]
breath' as a gloss?

Post by Daud Deden
anxax/ashakish
ajax from Greek Aiax/Aias, from aia earth.
In Mycenean Greek Ma-ka (transliterated as Ma-ga, "Mother Gaia") also contains the root ga-
In Greek mythology, Gaia (/ˈɡeɪ.ə/ or /ˈɡaɪ.ə/ from Ancient Greek Γαῖα, a poetical form of Γῆ Gē, "land" or "earth"[1]),

Daud Deden

2018-02-17 20:58:18 UTC

15ka Magdalenian dogs

A new look at an old dog:
Bonn-Oberkassel reconsidered
Luc Janssens 2018
J.archaeol.Sci.online 3.2.18
https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jas.2018.01.004
<https://doi.org/10.1016/j.jas.2018.01.004Get>

The dog was 7 months old when it died, and was buried with 2 humans.
The dog had been perniciously ill when 19 weeks old, caused by distemper.
Grave goods included a molar from another, 2nd dog.

The B-O dog remains (Upper Pleistocene, 14223 +-58 yrs old) have been
reported >100 yrs ago.
Recent re-examination revealed the tooth of another older & smaller dog,
making this domestic dog burial
- the oldest known,
- the only one with remains of 2 dogs.
This observation brings the total known Magdalenian dogs to 9.

Domestication of dogs during the final Palaeolithic has important
implications for understanding pre-Holocene hunter-gatherers.
Most proposed H-G motivations for domesticating dogs have been
utilitarian,
but remains of the Bonn-Oberkassel dogs may offer another view.

The B-O dog was a late juvenile when it was buried at +-age 2728 weeks,
with 2 adult humans & grave goods.
Oral cavity lesions indicate a gravely ill dog, that likely suffered a
morbillivirus infection (canine distemper).
A dental line of suggestive enamel hypoplasia appears at the 19-week
developmental stage.
2 additional enamel hypoplasia lines, on the canine only, document further
disease episodes at weeks 21 & 23.
Pathological changes also include severe periodontal disease, that may
have been facilitated by immuno-deficiency.

Canine distemper has a 3-week disease course with very high mortality:
the dog must have been perniciously ill during the 3 disease bouts &
between ages 19 & 23 weeks.
Survival without intensive human assistance would have been unlikely.
Before & during this period, the dog cannot have held any utilitarian use
to humans.

We suggest that at least some Late Pleistocene humans regarded dogs not
just materialistically, but may have developed emotional & caring bonds
for their dogs, as reflected by the survival of this dog, quite possibly
through human care.

Peter T. Daniels

2018-02-17 21:49:09 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
The B-O dog remains (Upper Pleistocene, 14223 +-58 yrs old)

specious precision

DKleinecke

2018-02-18 00:58:27 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
The B-O dog remains (Upper Pleistocene, 14223 +-58 yrs old)

specious precision

Depends on how one reads it. I would read it as saying
there is a 67% chance of being between 14165 and 14281
years old. 67% because I assume the increment is one
sigma. Maybe they use more sophisticated statistics. I
think it would be fair to say "about 14200 years old".

Personally I suspect the error is being radically
underestimated - but I don't have any real knowledge.

Daud Deden

2018-02-18 23:48:28 UTC

This is a rapid response post, I later wrote a better one which was lost, so here, rant included and missing a few points. DD

Post by Daud Deden
-
Ember-mobile-animate(embryonic spark of life)

just "dog" (I ..

I'll stick with the That Monigyah Linguist's impression, he wrote a good blogpost on it, he didn't just 'click the dict.'. Recall he linked lion as misatim. In Sumerian, a bitch or lioness = nig.

Post by Daud Deden
anima(te/l)

PIE *anə- 'breathe'
Proto-Bantu *ǹɲàmà 'meat; animal'

***@Mbuti: anima(l/te)
***@PBantu: meat, animal
***@Mbuti: thicket
***@Swahili: meet
Meet/meat/meal/eat/gate/grate/grill/mill/mesh-mat.rix-menstru/in-heat/greet/mate/make(baby-domi.cile)/pemm.ican/jam/jamb
All from ndjambua (part of ndjuambuangualua, an earlier rainforest form of OOA2 xyambuatlachya)
'diamond'

True in modern sense, but older sense included any sparkling/reflecting material. api fire, ambhi/bi.ntang/intan
[I'm thinking that 'ambi.dextrous' originally referred to the back & forth spinning of a fire-drill, only later meaning specifically 'either-both hand' and extra.pol.ated, as in amphi.bian: both land & water.]
from Arabic
A not uncommon name for men in eastern ('pagan'/Christian)Indonesia.
PAN *binahi 'woman, wife'

Post by Daud Deden
(b)ntya(ng/mua) anima?

Back to word-squashing, is it? So what language would this
be a word of?

Names & numbers are a Neo-etymogist's obsession, both have less importance in Paleo-etymology. Linnaeus started a real taxonomic conundrum by claiming permanent labels for temporary-phases of flora & fauna, which are constantly gradually undergoing transformation due to mutation & natural selection, just like language. Why don't you label it "squash", if that comforts you? I don't share your discomfort with unlabeled/noncategorised words, since I consider them less as discrete 'things' than as concepts coded in (climate-affected thus somewhat arbitrary) sound arrangements, always changing (but basal words changing slower). Languages are nationalistic things today, but long long ago they were c.amp(hi) things. If you are a permanent cubicle-dweller and haven't done any Primitive camping around a campfire, this will appear to be an alien concept, I can't fix that, ignorance is bliss/belief. If you are in a box/cage studying people/fauna who do/did not live in a box/cage, YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG, but nobody will tell you, because ALL YOUR PEERS are also in boxes/cages. THAT is why I'm doing this, and that is why my work is important, despite my many flaws in rendering Paleo-etymology coherently to modern hyper-domesticated AMHsapiens, like the typical non-field-tested Neo-etymogist's & their wannabes.
[Note: I do not want to write this again, refer back to it when necessary. DD]

same one as *xyuam(bua)tla and variations
thereof? And why no asterisk?

Asterisk/star/stella denotes conjecture. ALL is conjecture in Paleo-etymology, which is why 1. experience of non-domesticated nature, 2. study of primate-anthropoid-hominoid-hominin biology, 3. application of principles of Parsimony & Continuity, and 4. comprehension of the significance of portable broadleaf-shingled domiciles & sharpened sticks allowed and selected for vocal communication; are all significant in determining what produced this communication method we call language. Of course, you don't have to believe that, you can righteously claim it was an emperor or god that gave us language, as some have done.

How about 'diamond dog [or bitch]
breath' as a gloss?

Not a bad deduction, in the elemental sense. Star/spark.le/(s)apha.y.re/(r)espir(itu)

Extraneous: I don't speak Korean, but I admire their reduction of characters to around ~ 30 oral-pictures. So much better than 50k picture-characters despite the losses. If Japanese was only katakana-based, I'd be fluent, but their priests-scribes maximized rather than optimized their scriptural code, like the ancient Egyptians, making it terribly inefficient to learn quickly. Thank God for Phoenician/phonetics.

DD ~ David ~ Da'ud ~ Diode ~ ∆^¥°∆

Post by Daud Deden
-
Ember-mobile-animate(embryonic spark of life)

just "dog" (I called you on this one before)

Post by Daud Deden
anima(te/l)

PIE *anə- 'breathe'
Proto-Bantu *ǹɲàmà 'meat; animal'
'diamond'
from Arabic
PAN *binahi 'woman, wife'

Post by Daud Deden
(b)ntya(ng/mua) anima?

Peter T. Daniels

2018-02-19 04:11:51 UTC

On Sunday, February 18, 2018 at 6:48:31 PM UTC-5, Daud Deden wrote:

I don't understand your "rant," as you put it, about writing.

Post by Daud Deden
Extraneous: I don't speak Korean, but I admire their reduction of characters to around ~ 30 oral-pictures.

What does that mean?

Post by Daud Deden
So much better than 50k picture-characters

What does that mean?

Post by Daud Deden
despite the losses.

What does that mean?

Post by Daud Deden
If Japanese was only katakana-based,

You mean hiragana.

Post by Daud Deden
I'd be fluent,

What does writing have to do with fluency?

Post by Daud Deden
but their priests-scribes maximized rather than optimized their scriptural code,

What does that mean?

Post by Daud Deden
like the ancient Egyptians,

What does that mean?

Post by Daud Deden
making it terribly inefficient to learn quickly. Thank God for Phoenician/phonetics.

What does that mean?

Now I have an idea of how Ross feels when you trample roughshod on Austronesian languages.

DKleinecke

2018-02-19 05:50:13 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
I don't understand your "rant," as you put it, about writing.

Post by Daud Deden
Extraneous: I don't speak Korean, but I admire their reduction of characters to around ~ 30 oral-pictures.

What does that mean?

Post by Daud Deden
So much better than 50k picture-characters

What does that mean?

Post by Daud Deden
despite the losses.

What does that mean?

Post by Daud Deden
If Japanese was only katakana-based,

You mean hiragana.

Post by Daud Deden
I'd be fluent,

What does writing have to do with fluency?

Post by Daud Deden
but their priests-scribes maximized rather than optimized their scriptural code,

What does that mean?

Post by Daud Deden
like the ancient Egyptians,

What does that mean?

Post by Daud Deden
making it terribly inefficient to learn quickly. Thank God for Phoenician/phonetics.

What does that mean?
Now I have an idea of how Ross feels when you trample roughshod on Austronesian languages.

Looks to me like he will never get to South America so I
am beginning to feel safe. His little excursion into Pirahã
was too generic to call an interest in South America.

b***@ihug.co.nz

2018-02-19 08:55:59 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
This is a rapid response post, I later wrote a better one which was lost, so here, rant included and missing a few points. DD

Post by Daud Deden
-
Ember-mobile-animate(embryonic spark of life)

just "dog" (I ..
I'll stick with the That Monigyah Linguist's impression, he wrote a good blogpost on it, he didn't just 'click the dict.'.

So you feel "writing a good blogpost" produces superior results to
merely looking in a dictionary? What is the source of his knowledge
of Cree?

Recall he linked lion as misatim. In Sumerian, a bitch or lioness = nig.

Post by Daud Deden
anima(te/l)

And you know this how?

api fire, ambhi/bi.ntang/intan

Post by Daud Deden
[I'm thinking that 'ambi.dextrous' originally referred to the back & forth spinning of a fire-drill, only later meaning specifically 'either-both hand' and extra.pol.ated, as in amphi.bian: both land & water.]
from Arabic
A not uncommon name for men in eastern ('pagan'/Christian)Indonesia.

Men are called "daughter"? How unusual.
Or perhaps you mean just that there is a not uncommon name for men in
eastern Indonesia which is "binti" or "inti" or something sounding
a bit like one or the other?

Post by Daud Deden
PAN *binahi 'woman, wife'

Post by Daud Deden
(b)ntya(ng/mua) anima?

Back to word-squashing, is it? So what language would this
be a word of?
Names & numbers are a Neo-etymogist's obsession, both have less importance in Paleo-etymology.

Yes, it's clear everything is a lot more ... fluid ... in paleo-etymology.
But surely you have some idea of when and where this language was spoken?
You've cited so many of these polysyllabic squishes, I've often wondered
whether you have a list of them somewhere. Just up there, where I see
"OOA2 xyambuatlachya", it almost looks as if you've got them numbered or
catalogued or something.

Linnaeus started a real taxonomic conundrum by claiming permanent labels for temporary-phases of flora & fauna, which are constantly gradually undergoing transformation due to mutation & natural selection, just like language. Why don't you label it "squash", if that comforts you?

It doesn't comfort me any more than using any other word. I use "squash"
because they seem to have been constructed by fusing the various sounds
of a group of words you feel must have a common source. If there is
some other process which led you to these polysyllables, you have not
so far managed (or wanted) to explain it.

I don't share your discomfort with unlabeled/noncategorised words, since I consider them less as discrete 'things' than as concepts coded in (climate-affected thus somewhat arbitrary) sound arrangements, always changing (but basal words changing slower). Languages are nationalistic things today, but long long ago they were c.amp(hi) things. If you are a permanent cubicle-dweller and haven't done any Primitive camping around a campfire, this will appear to be an alien concept, I can't fix that, ignorance is bliss/belief. If you are in a box/cage studying people/fauna who do/did not live in a box/cage, YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG, but nobody will tell you, because ALL YOUR PEERS are also in boxes/cages. THAT is why I'm doing this, and that is why my work is important, despite my many flaws in rendering Paleo-etymology coherently to modern hyper-domesticated AMHsapiens, like the typical non-field-tested Neo-etymogist's & their wannabes.

I realize the condescension is essential to your portrayal of yourself
as a pioneer in a completely alternative system. But most of the things you
project onto me are untrue, though you have no way of knowing it.

Post by Daud Deden
[Note: I do not want to write this again, refer back to it when necessary. DD]

Why would I want to?

Post by Daud Deden
same one as *xyuam(bua)tla and variations
thereof? And why no asterisk?
Asterisk/star/stella denotes conjecture. ALL is conjecture in Paleo-etymology, which is why 1. experience of non-domesticated nature, 2. study of primate-anthropoid-hominoid-hominin biology, 3. application of principles of Parsimony & Continuity, and 4. comprehension of the significance of portable broadleaf-shingled domiciles & sharpened sticks allowed and selected for vocal communication; are all significant in determining what produced this communication method we call language. Of course, you don't have to believe that, you can righteously claim it was an emperor or god that gave us language, as some have done.

No, I don't plan to do that, either.

Post by Daud Deden
How about 'diamond dog [or bitch]
breath' as a gloss?
Not a bad deduction, in the elemental sense. Star/spark.le/(s)apha.y.re/(r)espir(itu)
Extraneous: I don't speak Korean, but I admire their reduction of characters to around ~ 30 oral-pictures. So much better than 50k picture-characters despite the losses. If Japanese was only katakana-based, I'd be fluent, but their priests-scribes maximized rather than optimized their scriptural code, like the ancient Egyptians, making it terribly inefficient to learn quickly. Thank God for Phoenician/phonetics.
DD ~ David ~ Da'ud ~ Diode ~ ∆^¥°∆

Mścisław Wojna-Bojewski

2018-02-21 19:23:55 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
If you are a permanent cubicle-dweller and haven't done any Primitive camping around a campfire, this will appear to be an alien concept

Being myself a half-primitive, I'd like to warn you that you writings may already be in breach of several of our tribal taboos. I might feel obliged to raise the kuolonkärki against you and follow slavishly the call of my totem god, Kiveksenviipaloija, the Testicle-Slasher.

Daud Deden

2018-02-21 22:22:51 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
This is a rapid response post, I later wrote a better one which was lost, so here, rant included and missing a few points. DD

-

Forgive me for not responding to responses to the "rant" (1st) post at this time, I need to recall what my 2nd post (which failed to post due to railroad wifi difficulties) included, I don't want to get distracted quite yet.

Some possible cognates between Basque and West Chadic words, incl. dog 47
[by Chris Davies at Maju's blog]

[DD: Note: compare star 149 & old 184, cf ~***@Russ & ***@Swahili: elder]

149."Star"- Basque: 'izar'/ Guruntum [West Chadic]: 'saar'; Boot [West Chadic]:' ŝaàr'
23. "Two" - Basque: 'bi' ; Hausa [West Chadic]: 'biyu' ; Gwandara [West Chadic]: 'bi'
55. “Seed” – Basque: ‘hazi’ / “Grain” - Hausa [West Chadic]: ‘hatsi’
68. “Horn” – Basque: ‘adar’ / Glavda [Central Chadic]: ‘derawa’

47. “Dog” – Basque: ‘txakur’ [also similar in Sardinian etc.] / Toubou languages [Saharan]: ‘zeger’ ; Proto-West Chadic: *kyara- [eg. Hausa: ‘kare’, etc. etc.]; Proto-Central Chadic: *kur-/*kir-r’ [various examples] ;
81. “Leg” – Basque: ‘hanka’ / Miya [West Chadic]: ‘angar’
1. “I” – Basque: ‘ni’ / Hausa [West Chadic]: ‘ni’

61. “Rope” – Basque: ‘soka’ [related to word for “snake”? ie. rope resembles a snake?] ; Koyraboro Senni, Songhai [Saharan]: ‘sugÉ›y’
156. “Stone” – Basque: ‘harri’ / Musgu [Central Chadic]: ‘kurii’
40. “Wife” – Basque: ‘emazte’ / Hausa [West Chadic]: ‘matar’
184. “Old” – Basque: ‘zahar’ / Hausa [West Chadic]: ‘tsoho’

159. “Earth” – Basque: ‘lur’ / Buduma/Yedina [Central Chadic]: ‘lo’
169. “(To) Burn” – Basque: ‘erre’ / Dangla [East Chadic]: ‘ere’

-
cf: MW: STAROSTIN. From "starosta", a word that means "village elder" or related things in several Slavic language. Star- means "old" in Slavic"

No link between starosta and zarathustra/zoroaster?
***@Slav: old, aged
***@Malay: old, aged
*Xyua, stat/s(t)ag.e.d/stack/etage/storey, stepped
---
---------------------------------------------------

Post by Daud Deden
-
Ember-mobile-animate(embryonic spark of life)

just "dog" (I ..
I'll stick with the That Monigyah Linguist's impression, he wrote a good blogpost on it, he didn't just 'click the dict.'. Recall he linked lion as misatim. In Sumerian, a bitch or lioness = nig.

Post by Daud Deden
anima(te/l)

PIE *anə- 'breathe'
Proto-Bantu *ǹɲàmà 'meat; animal'
Meet/meat/meal/eat/gate/grate/grill/mill/mesh-mat.rix-menstru/in-heat/greet/mate/make(baby-domi.cile)/pemm.ican/jam/jamb
All from ndjambua (part of ndjuambuangualua, an earlier rainforest form of OOA2 xyambuatlachya)
'diamond'
True in modern sense, but older sense included any sparkling/reflecting material. api fire, ambhi/bi.ntang/intan
[I'm thinking that 'ambi.dextrous' originally referred to the back & forth spinning of a fire-drill, only later meaning specifically 'either-both hand' and extra.pol.ated, as in amphi.bian: both land & water.]
from Arabic
A not uncommon name for men in eastern ('pagan'/Christian)Indonesia.
PAN *binahi 'woman, wife'

Post by Daud Deden
(b)ntya(ng/mua) anima?

Back to word-squashing, is it? So what language would this
be a word of?
Names & numbers are a Neo-etymogist's obsession, both have less importance in Paleo-etymology. Linnaeus started a real taxonomic conundrum by claiming permanent labels for temporary-phases of flora & fauna, which are constantly gradually undergoing transformation due to mutation & natural selection, just like language. Why don't you label it "squash", if that comforts you? I don't share your discomfort with unlabeled/noncategorised words, since I consider them less as discrete 'things' than as concepts coded in (climate-affected thus somewhat arbitrary) sound arrangements, always changing (but basal words changing slower). Languages are nationalistic things today, but long long ago they were c.amp(hi) things. If you are a permanent cubicle-dweller and haven't done any Primitive camping around a campfire, this will appear to be an alien concept, I can't fix that, ignorance is bliss/belief. If you are in a box/cage studying people/fauna who do/did not live in a box/cage, YOU ARE DOING IT WRONG, but nobody will tell you, because ALL YOUR PEERS are also in boxes/cages. THAT is why I'm doing this, and that is why my work is important, despite my many flaws in rendering Paleo-etymology coherently to modern hyper-domesticated AMHsapiens, like the typical non-field-tested Neo-etymogist's & their wannabes.
[Note: I do not want to write this again, refer back to it when necessary. DD]
same one as *xyuam(bua)tla and variations
thereof? And why no asterisk?
Asterisk/star/stella denotes conjecture. ALL is conjecture in Paleo-etymology, which is why 1. experience of non-domesticated nature, 2. study of primate-anthropoid-hominoid-hominin biology, 3. application of principles of Parsimony & Continuity, and 4. comprehension of the significance of portable broadleaf-shingled domiciles & sharpened sticks allowed and selected for vocal communication; are all significant in determining what produced this communication method we call language. Of course, you don't have to believe that, you can righteously claim it was an emperor or god that gave us language, as some have done.
How about 'diamond dog [or bitch]
breath' as a gloss?
Not a bad deduction, in the elemental sense. Star/spark.le/(s)apha.y.re/(r)espir(itu)
Extraneous: I don't speak Korean, but I admire their reduction of characters to around ~ 30 oral-pictures. So much better than 50k picture-characters despite the losses. If Japanese was only katakana-based, I'd be fluent, but their priests-scribes maximized rather than optimized their scriptural code, like the ancient Egyptians, making it terribly inefficient to learn quickly. Thank God for Phoenician/phonetics.
DD ~ David ~ Da'ud ~ Diode ~ ∆^¥°∆

Post by Daud Deden
-
Ember-mobile-animate(embryonic spark of life)

just "dog" (I called you on this one before)

Post by Daud Deden
anima(te/l)

PIE *anə- 'breathe'
Proto-Bantu *ǹɲàmà 'meat; animal'
'diamond'
from Arabic
PAN *binahi 'woman, wife'

Post by Daud Deden
(b)ntya(ng/mua) anima?

DKleinecke

2018-02-21 23:28:46 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
This is a rapid response post, I later wrote a better one which was lost, so here, rant included and missing a few points. DD

-
Forgive me for not responding to responses to the "rant" (1st) post at this time, I need to recall what my 2nd post (which failed to post due to railroad wifi difficulties) included, I don't want to get distracted quite yet.
Some possible cognates between Basque and West Chadic words, incl. dog 47
[by Chris Davies at Maju's blog]
149."Star"- Basque: 'izar'/ Guruntum [West Chadic]: 'saar'; Boot [West Chadic]:' ŝaàr'
23. "Two" - Basque: 'bi' ; Hausa [West Chadic]: 'biyu' ; Gwandara [West Chadic]: 'bi'
55. “Seed” – Basque: ‘hazi’ / “Grain” - Hausa [West Chadic]: ‘hatsi’
68. “Horn” – Basque: ‘adar’ / Glavda [Central Chadic]: ‘derawa’
47. “Dog” – Basque: ‘txakur’ [also similar in Sardinian etc.] / Toubou languages [Saharan]: ‘zeger’ ; Proto-West Chadic: *kyara- [eg. Hausa: ‘kare’, etc. etc.]; Proto-Central Chadic: *kur-/*kir-r’ [various examples] ;
81. “Leg” – Basque: ‘hanka’ / Miya [West Chadic]: ‘angar’
1. “I” – Basque: ‘ni’ / Hausa [West Chadic]: ‘ni’
61. “Rope” – Basque: ‘soka’ [related to word for “snake”? ie. rope resembles a snake?] ; Koyraboro Senni, Songhai [Saharan]: ‘sugÉ›y’
156. “Stone” – Basque: ‘harri’ / Musgu [Central Chadic]: ‘kurii’
40. “Wife” – Basque: ‘emazte’ / Hausa [West Chadic]: ‘matar’
184. “Old” – Basque: ‘zahar’ / Hausa [West Chadic]: ‘tsoho’
159. “Earth” – Basque: ‘lur’ / Buduma/Yedina [Central Chadic]: ‘lo’
169. “(To) Burn” – Basque: ‘erre’ / Dangla [East Chadic]: ‘ere’

I imagine there are papers somewhere already claiming that
Basque is an Afro-Asiatic language.

They don't seem to have convinced anyone much.

I just googled "Basque Afro-Asiatic" and got some hits.
Hence the connection has been suggested but is not generally
accepted.

Peter T. Daniels

2018-02-22 02:30:54 UTC

Post by DKleinecke
I imagine there are papers somewhere already claiming that
Basque is an Afro-Asiatic language.

By Theo Vennemann. "AA is the substrate language of Europe."

Phil Baldi wrote an extensive refutation of his book. I wonder whether it was
ever published -- whenever I asked, it was always forthcoming (he sent page
proofs, they probably perished two or three computers ago).

Post by DKleinecke
They don't seem to have convinced anyone much.
I just googled "Basque Afro-Asiatic" and got some hits.
Hence the connection has been suggested but is not generally
accepted.

b***@ihug.co.nz

2018-02-22 03:12:02 UTC

Post by DKleinecke
I imagine there are papers somewhere already claiming that
Basque is an Afro-Asiatic language.

By Theo Vennemann. "AA is the substrate language of Europe."
Phil Baldi wrote an extensive refutation of his book. I wonder whether it was
ever published -- whenever I asked, it was always forthcoming (he sent page
proofs, they probably perished two or three computers ago).

Says here:

Vennemann's book Europa Vasconica - Europa Semitica (2003) was reviewed
in Lingua by linguists Philip Baldi and B. Richard Page, who made reasoned dismissals of a number of his proposals. The reviewers still applauded Vennemann's "efforts to reassess the role and extent of language contact
in the development of Indo-European languages in Europe".

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Theo_Vennemann

I thought of Vennemann too, though it's not exactly what DD has in mind.
V is arguing for a Basque substratum over a far larger part of Europe than
the present range, and also for a pervasive AA influence on Western Europe,
except it's Semitic rather than Chadic that interests him. I don't think he
actually claims Basque is AA. Still, it wouldn't hurt DD to read him, to
get some acquaintance with a higher level of scholarship, and perhaps
realize that these exciting new ideas on the internet are not so original...

Peter T. Daniels

2018-02-22 15:11:33 UTC

Post by DKleinecke
I imagine there are papers somewhere already claiming that
Basque is an Afro-Asiatic language.

By Theo Vennemann. "AA is the substrate language of Europe."
Phil Baldi wrote an extensive refutation of his book. I wonder whether it was
ever published -- whenever I asked, it was always forthcoming (he sent page
proofs, they probably perished two or three computers ago).

Vennemann's book Europa Vasconica - Europa Semitica (2003) was reviewed
in Lingua by linguists Philip Baldi and B. Richard Page, who made reasoned dismissals of a number of his proposals. The reviewers still applauded Vennemann's "efforts to reassess the role and extent of language contact
in the development of Indo-European languages in Europe".

Ah. When I was looking for articles on English orthography, I found that *Lingua* typically
had a publication delay of five years or more. Articles dated 1970 said things like "work
by Chomsky and Halle that is circulating in manuscript ..." (SPE, of course, was
published in 1968). Apparently nothing had changed 30 or 40 years later.

Marc Schütz

2018-02-22 12:40:25 UTC

Am Wed, 21 Feb 2018 18:30:54 -0800 (PST)

Post by DKleinecke
I imagine there are papers somewhere already claiming that
Basque is an Afro-Asiatic language.

By Theo Vennemann. "AA is the substrate language of Europe."

This is wrong. His claim is that an ancestor of _Basque_ ("Vasconic") is
the main substrate language, and that in addition there is an unrelated
AA substrate ("Atlantic") found along the atlantic coasts.

Daud Deden

2018-02-22 15:18:06 UTC

I made no claim. There are some plausible cognates.

The sound "gai" for height is common, xy/sky/zi/thi, ***@Malay & ***@Tigrinha: mountain.

Chaddic people & Sardinians share the V188 Gene, also prevalent in the Bug-Dniester people ("eDeN" of pre-deluge?) cattle-raisers, but I'm not sure about Basques.

Arnaud Fournet

2018-02-22 19:46:42 UTC

Post by Marc SchÃ¼tz
Am Wed, 21 Feb 2018 18:30:54 -0800 (PST)

Post by DKleinecke
I imagine there are papers somewhere already claiming that
Basque is an Afro-Asiatic language.

By Theo Vennemann. "AA is the substrate language of Europe."

The review in Lingua is available on Scribd and I read it.
It can be noted that Vennemann's theory contradicts itself.
For example, the word "sleep" is rather odd as it presupposes something like *sleHb- with the rare phoneme *b.
Vennemann made the interesting observation that many strong verbs like *sleHb- have *b either initially or medially, resulting in p in Germanic languages, a notoriously odd phoneme, often associated with non-IE origin.
According to Vennemann, the development of strong verbs like *sleHb- (into a particular class of strong verbs) would be the consequence of a so-called Semitidic superstratic influence.
Now, the obvious thing is that *s-leh-b "to sleep" shares something with Basque lo "to sleep". So, I think you can't have cheese and dessert at the same time.
Personally, I would be ready to buy the idea that Paleo-European substrates are quite probably related to Basque.
The Semitidic thing strikes as rather nonsensical.
A.

Daud Deden

2018-02-21 23:03:55 UTC

DK: Maybe they use more sophisticated statistics. I
think it would be fair to say "about 14200 years old".

Personally I suspect the error is being radically
underestimated - but I don't have any real knowledge.
---
The claim refers to that site, dogs may have domesticated elsewhere long previously, but none show proof of "cared-for pet" rather than simple association with human camps.

Daud Deden

2017-11-19 19:07:00 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
No, Sumerian. PLEASE learn to use the sources, or learn something about the
languages you go fishing in.
No, kalbu. Same in every other Semitic language.

kalbu(m) s^a s^arri(m) "the king's dog"
kalab s^arri(m) (constructed state)
but I'm afraid all this flies lightyears above what Toddler Daud can understand.

The second vowel in kalab is merely epenthetic -- he isn't able to glance at grammars of Semitic languages.

Xyuambuatlua <-> (permutations)

Mbwa/***@Lingala Bantu: dog [IMO, first: mother=bitch cf. ***@Lingala Bantu: mama; cf ***@Chinese: mother=mare; ***@Balinese-Javanese: mother]

Mbua ~ kua(n)@Chinese: dog, ~ kuo(n)@Greek: dog, ~ Quo(c) island, VN
(Xy/k/q)uambua?

China 8ka: comestible pigs and dogs raised under houses (cf Iban)
Arabia 8ka: engraving of curly-tailed dog = basenji x Canaan dog forebear?
Bassetki, Kurdistan: reference to goddess Gula (always shown with curly-tailed dog)

Yusuf B Gursey

2017-10-19 23:47:26 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
"The Hebrew word for "help" is עזר (ezer, underlined in red above). The
first letter in this word is an "ayin". In modern Hebrew this letter is
silent but the ancient pronunciation was a soft "g" (gh) as in the word
"ring". This word would have been pronounced "ghezer".
The Ugarit word Ugarit gezer (gezer) means "young man" and is spelled the
same as ghezer except for the first letter which is a "gimel". "
http://www.ancient-hebrew.org/bible_ugarit.html
So ayin was "ng" like ring, not like gold.

As Peter T. Daniels said not "ng". But at the time of the LXX Hebrew
had preserved PSem */*gh*/ as we know from Greek transcriptions which
later merged with /3/. The alphabet is based on Phoenician where the
merger had taken place earlier. but עזר "help" was always with 3 . The
Arabic cognate is 3a*dh*ara "he excused" (usual) "he helped" (rare),
Sabaic <3*dh*r> "he helped". No Old Hebrew * *gh*ezer "help."

Post by Daud Deden
From Qu'oc/Ku'on/Qu'an,
-Turk/Russ/Farsi
Ko(p)ak->s(ob)ak(a)->sag
-Bari/Mbabaram
Ku(t)aka->(gu)dag(a)->dog
Now I need 'dog' in Samre Pear, Chamic, Hani, Yali, Bali.

Daud Deden

2017-10-19 20:58:29 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
From Qu'oc/Ku'on/Qu'an,
-Turk/Russ/Farsi
Ko(p)ak->s(ob)ak(a)->sag
-Bari/Mbabaram
Ku(t)aka->(gu)dag(a)->dog
Now I need 'dog' in Samre Pear, Chamic, Hani, Yali, Bali.

Peter T. Daniels

2017-10-19 21:45:33 UTC

Wrong. Sumerian.
Looks like a loanword from Sumerian. What does the Chicago Assyrian Dictionary say?

Daud Deden

2017-10-19 22:33:23 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Wrong. Sumerian.
Looks like a loanword from Sumerian. What does the Chicago Assyrian Dictionary say?

Thanks Peter, I don't know. I noted similarity between siparru & Persian sipar:shield.

(My computer is behaving badly again, can't view older threads.)

Yusuf B Gursey

2017-10-19 23:53:59 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Wrong. Sumerian.
Looks like a loanword from Sumerian. What does the Chicago Assyrian Dictionary say?

Thanks Peter, I don't know. I noted similarity between siparru & Persian sipar:shield.
(My computer is behaving badly again, can't view older threads.)

I don't have a further etymology for that, other than Old Persian spar,
"shield" Sanskrit sphara "shield" (my Turkish etymological dictionary
says the Sanskrit word is a loanword from Persian, but I take the
author with a grain of salt)

Daud Deden

2017-10-20 16:30:27 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Wrong. Sumerian.
Looks like a loanword from Sumerian. What does the Chicago Assyrian Dictionary say?

Thanks Peter, I don't know. I noted similarity between siparru & Persian sipar:shield.
(My computer is behaving badly again, can't view older threads.)

Apparently Old Persian and Sanskrit didn't have separate vowel 'i' character?
It must have been there though:

***@Persian: shield ~ ***@Aztec: shield ~ *XY(a)(M/b/P)a(R/LL)I from *Xyambuatlay ~ cy.mbal/skin.bell/an.vil(turtle shell/swell/mabul) ~ sy.mbol/(s/c)hine.brand ~ *tot.em.blem ~ tamga-***@Mongolian:s.tamp/blaze/brand ~ (*xy)***@AncEgypt.:signature

(Same stuff in European heraldry, see Roundels thread.)

Peter T. Daniels

2017-10-20 17:08:58 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
Apparently Old Persian and Sanskrit didn't have separate vowel 'i' character?

Where did you get that particular bit of nonsense?

Charts of both scripts are actually available on The Web. Try omniglot.

Daud Deden

2017-10-20 17:59:28 UTC

Peter, I said "It must have been there though".

If I'd said "may" or "might", I'd consider your advice helpful, but not this time.

Syabas!

shukria syukran todaraba tanleawat tadlimat selamat tanganlima terima teruma xyaduof doff duffle aloft

Peter T. Daniels

2017-10-20 20:27:41 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
Peter, I said "It must have been there though".
If I'd said "may" or "might", I'd consider your advice helpful, but not this time.

I have no idea what you're talking about.

Daud Deden

2017-10-22 14:36:07 UTC

***@Aztec: shield
***@English: cymbal
***@Persian: shield
*Qupharigolu: coracle
***@Greek: cup
***@Hindi: coracle
***@Hebrew: ark

DKleinecke

2017-10-22 16:55:29 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
*Qupharigolu: coracle

Etymology is a science where vowels count for nothing and consonants for very little.

Voltaire

As quoted in: Max Müller Lectures on the Science of Language (2nd series, 1864) 'On the Principles of Etymology'

Peter T. Daniels

2017-10-22 17:38:50 UTC

Post by DKleinecke

Post by Daud Deden
*Qupharigolu: coracle

Etymology is a science where vowels count for nothing and consonants for very little.
Voltaire
As quoted in: Max Müller Lectures on the Science of Language (2nd series, 1864) 'On the Principles of Etymology'

Whence quoted by Leonard Bloomfield in: Language (1933; UK ed. with different phonemicization of
English, 1935)

Unfortunately no one has ever found anywhere that Voltaire said anything like it. Perhaps he
was Oscar (Wilde or Levant) or James A. McNeill (Whistler) _avant la lettre_.

Arnaud Fournet

2017-10-22 19:34:28 UTC

Post by DKleinecke

Post by Daud Deden
*Qupharigolu: coracle

Etymology is a science where vowels count for nothing and consonants for very little.
Voltaire
As quoted in: Max Müller Lectures on the Science of Language (2nd series, 1864) 'On the Principles of Etymology'

Whence quoted by Leonard Bloomfield in: Language (1933; UK ed. with different phonemicization of
English, 1935)
Unfortunately no one has ever found anywhere that Voltaire said anything like it. Perhaps he
was Oscar (Wilde or Levant) or James A. McNeill (Whistler) _avant la lettre_.

yes, it sounds like something Voltaire could have written, but indeed there's no reference in what Voltaire actually wrote that is known to us and looks like that.
A.

Daud Deden

2017-10-23 19:18:47 UTC

Post by DKleinecke

Post by Daud Deden
*Qupharigolu: coracle

Etymology is a science where vowels count for nothing and consonants for very little.

Counting is Neo-etymology.

Post by DKleinecke
Voltaire
As quoted in: Max Müller Lectures on the Science of Language (2nd series, 1864) 'On the Principles of Etymology'

Arnaud Fournet

2017-10-20 07:38:56 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Wrong. Sumerian.
Looks like a loanword from Sumerian. What does the Chicago Assyrian Dictionary say?

it's interesting to note that we have two words with k/g versus s/z alternations.
iron: (ha)-balki, (ha)-barki versus Semitic barzilu
copper: kabali, kupros versus siparru
I suspect Luwian is the source of the transfer of Anatolian words toward Mesopotamia and the language where the sound change occurred.
A.

Daud Deden

2017-10-20 17:26:59 UTC

Post by Peter T. Daniels
Wrong. Sumerian.
Looks like a loanword from Sumerian. What does the Chicago Assyrian Dictionary say?

A. what language is kabali? coppery xya(m)b(u)a(t)l(a)y shine.body show.booty

A roundshield was a turtle shell, an umbo copper sheet was formed on an anvil.

Daud Deden

2017-10-21 16:38:19 UTC

Kabali copper.y cup.per/cooper(cask maker)
***@Sum:pot.ter.y
Copotter/xyuambuatla water cup kavadi?

Arnaud Fournet

2017-10-21 17:40:42 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
Kabali copper.y cup.per/cooper(cask maker)
Copotter/xyuambuatla water cup kavadi?

for your information, Toddler Daud, kabali / kabalum are attested in Hurrian and Eblaite.
A.

Daud Deden

2017-10-21 19:30:51 UTC

Post by Daud Deden
Kabali copper.y cup.per/cooper(cask maker)
Copotter/xyuambuatla water cup kavadi?

Khaybar ~ copper

The lava caves and "gates" of Harrat Khaybar (White Mountain) are in the news today. Scientists have known about this region for 30 years. This is the region of biblical Dedan and Ophir, described as rich in precious metals. This is probably the oldest known site of recovery of copper and gold, and the miners lived in the caves, many of which collapsed long ago. ***@AL

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/228491446_THE_LAVA_CAVES_OF_KHAYBAR_SAUDI_ARABIA

Daud Deden

2017-10-14 19:55:46 UTC