OT is it me?

[Vicky]

Ok still waiting to resolve bill with flow energy
Appparently many people get bills over 1k when they leave a supplier.
odd? B has been checking. i emailed the readings for a 7 day period to
my new supplier, Npower, as requested and got another request to do
so!
I emailed them again. Also got emails from flow saying npower had no
record of a complaint. All these took 3-4 weeks each.
I emailed both copied again to say so and today got this from
Npower(who have to check the meter as the current supllier

"In relation to your Npower complaint:
We have looked at your meter readings you have taken over 7 days and
can see that they are advancing by at least 30 units every day which
seems quite high.
We recommend that you discuss this with our Energy Efficiency team in
order to look into your usage alongside your readings to determine if
there is a fault with the meter.
I understand you have requested your complaint to be dealt with by
email due to being hard of hearing.
Unfortunately our Energy Efficiency team will be unable to discuss
this over email but they do have access to our text talk service.
In order to use this service to discuss this with them please contact
0800 413 016. "

So because I want email contact, partly my hearing but really as I
want a written record, I need to phone to get it!





Many Thanks
"

[Penny]

On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 18:28:43 +0100, Vicky <***@gmail.com> scrawled
in the dust...

Post by Vicky
I understand you have requested your complaint to be dealt with by
email due to being hard of hearing.
Unfortunately our Energy Efficiency team will be unable to discuss
this over email but they do have access to our text talk service.
In order to use this service to discuss this with them please contact
0800 413 016. "
So because I want email contact, partly my hearing but really as I
want a written record, I need to phone to get it!

And get yourself a special phone too, by the sound of it - what is text
talk? If they mean text relay you can use a tablet or smart phone
<https://www.actiononhearingloss.org.uk/your-hearing/ways-of-communicating/other-forms-of-communication/text-relay.aspx>
<https://goo.gl/Rdoq7U>

[J. P. Gilliver (John)]

Post by Penny
in the dust...

[]

Post by Penny

Post by Vicky
Unfortunately our Energy Efficiency team will be unable to discuss
this over email but they do have access to our text talk service.
In order to use this service to discuss this with them please contact
0800 413 016. "
So because I want email contact, partly my hearing but really as I
want a written record, I need to phone to get it!

[]
Where possible, and being fortunate enough to be able to afford it, I do
not deal with companies who do not provide an email interface. (In some
cases I accept correspondence where it has to be by webform in one
direction, but not if there's an alternative.)

[Vicky]

Post by Penny
in the dust...

Post by Vicky
I understand you have requested your complaint to be dealt with by
email due to being hard of hearing.
Unfortunately our Energy Efficiency team will be unable to discuss
this over email but they do have access to our text talk service.
In order to use this service to discuss this with them please contact
0800 413 016. "
So because I want email contact, partly my hearing but really as I
want a written record, I need to phone to get it!

And get yourself a special phone too, by the sound of it - what is text
talk? If they mean text relay you can use a tablet or smart phone
<https://www.actiononhearingloss.org.uk/your-hearing/ways-of-communicating/other-forms-of-communication/text-relay.aspx>
<https://goo.gl/Rdoq7U>

I was able to email him and ask as unusually he has his name and eamil
address on his email, rather than do not reply to this as it is
unmonitored, go to our webform which will be read by someone who knows
nothing about anything and will ignore it. I asked if i could phone
on a mobile and he said yes I can talk via text that way. it's an 0800
number.

[Fenny]

Post by Vicky
Ok still waiting to resolve bill with flow energy
Appparently many people get bills over 1k when they leave a supplier.
odd? B has been checking. i emailed the readings for a 7 day period to
my new supplier, Npower, as requested and got another request to do
so!
I emailed them again. Also got emails from flow saying npower had no
record of a complaint. All these took 3-4 weeks each.
I emailed both copied again to say so and today got this from
Npower(who have to check the meter as the current supllier
We have looked at your meter readings you have taken over 7 days and
can see that they are advancing by at least 30 units every day which
seems quite high.
We recommend that you discuss this with our Energy Efficiency team in
order to look into your usage alongside your readings to determine if
there is a fault with the meter.
I understand you have requested your complaint to be dealt with by
email due to being hard of hearing.
Unfortunately our Energy Efficiency team will be unable to discuss
this over email but they do have access to our text talk service.
In order to use this service to discuss this with them please contact
0800 413 016. "
So because I want email contact, partly my hearing but really as I
want a written record, I need to phone to get it!

Sounds like a load of bolleaux to me. I had some issues switching
from SSE to EDF last year and I dealt with it all by email. I had a
problem with getting my cashback confirmed this year when I switched
Pa from Npower to SSE. The cashback co wanted info I didn't have and
asked me to contact SSE. I did it all by email.

Npower used to be a total PITA, but when Pa was with them until
recently, they seemed to have improved a lot. My advice would be to
do an online chat and say that if they don't use email, you will
switch to someone who understands how to deal with customers' specific
access needs properly. Make it clear that you want the written record
for hearing issues and also so that you can look at it at your leisure
without being pressured into anything in the moment and that you will
complain about how they implement whatever the current version of DDA
is if they can't do what you want.

30 units a day does seem like a lot, but it depends what you have
running.

[John Ashby]

Post by Fenny
30 units a day does seem like a lot, but it depends what you have
running.

Vicky, you're supposed to bypass the meter for the ganja farm.

john

[Vicky]

Post by John Ashby

Post by Fenny
30 units a day does seem like a lot, but it depends what you have
running.

Vicky, you're supposed to bypass the meter for the ganja farm.
john

B has now got really annoyed and is taking readings again for this
week and researching the matter online. He was wondering whether
keeping the hot water tank on is doing something about the usage. I
can't see how if it just tops up when a little is used for handwashing
or dishwasher. The washing machine is cold fill. The CH is triggered
by fall in temperature but has not come on for months.

[Vicky]

Post by Vicky

Post by John Ashby

Post by Fenny
30 units a day does seem like a lot, but it depends what you have
running.

Vicky, you're supposed to bypass the meter for the ganja farm.
john

B has now got really annoyed and is taking readings again for this
week and researching the matter online. He was wondering whether
keeping the hot water tank on is doing something about the usage. I
can't see how if it just tops up when a little is used for handwashing
or dishwasher. The washing machine is cold fill. The CH is triggered
by fall in temperature but has not come on for months.

Ok B decided to investigate the only thing using gas really because
when we heard back about the readings from Npower they said they were
high and it was a week in June with no CH, almost no cooking gas but
we have the CH to come on if it is cold and to heat water. (coold fill
washing machine though)

We assumed the hot water tank stays hot and if you turn the hot tap on
a little refills and is heated. There is an immersion heater but for
now B turned the CH/water to come on for an hour three times a day to
see if this made a difference to being on all the time and just
cutting in when needed.

He began doing readings to check on Wednesday 9th and yesterday and
today the meter hardly moved. There is a huge difference between the
ones I did with the CH/hot water on all the time even though no CH
came on. We're wondering about a slow leak so we are heating water
that goes but it seems odd that so little is used now. The previous 7
readings were consistently almost the same daily and these 2 results
so far are similar too.

Is there something we don't know about combi boilers that explains
this? Meanwhile I told Npower they are naughty people because BBA and
they will get the meter accuracy team to contact me, by email, to
arrange an appointment to test the meter. We suspect if ther eis
nothing wrong with it but it is our system they will charge for that.
If there is something and it is fixed it would save huge amounts but I
will be annoyed too as have had 2 years huge payments and Npower in
parallel with the complaints suggested doubling my DD!

[Penny]

On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 11:05:47 +0100, Vicky <***@gmail.com> scrawled
in the dust...

Post by Vicky
We assumed the hot water tank stays hot and if you turn the hot tap on
a little refills and is heated. There is an immersion heater but for
now B turned the CH/water to come on for an hour three times a day to
see if this made a difference to being on all the time and just
cutting in when needed.
He began doing readings to check on Wednesday 9th and yesterday and
today the meter hardly moved. There is a huge difference between the
ones I did with the CH/hot water on all the time even though no CH
came on. We're wondering about a slow leak so we are heating water
that goes but it seems odd that so little is used now. The previous 7
readings were consistently almost the same daily and these 2 results
so far are similar too.
Is there something we don't know about combi boilers that explains
this?

I thought combi boilers heated water as needed and are not usually combined
with a hot water tank so I'm surprised you have both - but I've never had a
combi boiler. I don't use much hot water so run the boiler for 15 mins
every evening to warm some for hand washing and once a week on bath day for
long enough to get the whole (small) tankful very hot so I can have a bath.
You don't need the whole tank hot to have warm water as it feeds out from
the top.

[BrritSki]

Post by Penny
I thought combi boilers heated water as needed and are not usually combined
with a hot water tank so I'm surprised you have both - but I've never had a
combi boiler.

Yes, I think you're right:
<https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/archive/boilers/what-is-a-combi-boiler>

We have a gas one. It's on all the time, but only actually burns any gas
when there's a need for hot water, either because we've run a hot tap
somewhere or because the underfloor heating has come on. It also fires
up every 6 hours or so for a few seconds to check the system.

We have no other form of water heating, but we supplement our ufh in the
winter with a log burner. We use about 1200L of LPG a year. No idea how
that converts into Therms, BTus or whatever other exotic units are in
use these days.

[Mike]

Post by BrritSki

Post by Penny
I thought combi boilers heated water as needed and are not usually combined
with a hot water tank so I'm surprised you have both - but I've never had a
combi boiler.

<https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/archive/boilers/what-is-a-combi-boiler>
We have a gas one. It's on all the time, but only actually burns any gas
when there's a need for hot water, either because we've run a hot tap
somewhere or because the underfloor heating has come on. It also fires
up every 6 hours or so for a few seconds to check the system.
We have no other form of water heating, but we supplement our ufh in the
winter with a log burner. We use about 1200L of LPG a year. No idea how
that converts into Therms, BTus or whatever other exotic units are in
use these days.

I'm sure an Umrat will be along soon who could provide chapter and verse on
this matter.

[Peter Percival]

[...] We use about 1200L of LPG a year. No
idea how that converts into Therms, BTus or whatever other exotic
units are in use these days.

The calorific value of lpg is about 26 mega Joules per litre ("about"
because the mixture of hydrocarbons in lpg is not fixed).

A therm is 100,000 BTU, and a BTU is about 1055 Joules ("about" because
it depends on the temperature).

[Peter Percival]

Post by Peter Percival

[...] We use about 1200L of LPG a year. No idea how that converts
into Therms, BTus or whatever other exotic units are in use these
days.

The calorific value of lpg is about 26 mega Joules per litre

Actually, I don't mean calorific value I mean energy density. Sorry.

Post by Peter Percival
("about" because the mixture of hydrocarbons in lpg is not fixed).
A therm is 100,000 BTU, and a BTU is about 1055 Joules ("about"
because it depends on the temperature).

[Penny]

On Fri, 11 Aug 2017 17:38:07 +0200, BrritSki <***@gmail.com>
scrawled in the dust...

Post by BrritSki

Post by Penny
I thought combi boilers heated water as needed and are not usually combined
with a hot water tank so I'm surprised you have both - but I've never had a
combi boiler.

<https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/archive/boilers/what-is-a-combi-boiler>
We have a gas one. It's on all the time, but only actually burns any gas
when there's a need for hot water, either because we've run a hot tap
somewhere or because the underfloor heating has come on.

I think they work ok for baths*, although whenever I've stayed with my
children (who both have them) I've been unimpressed by their inability to
get hot water to a sink in timely fashion any distance from the boiler for
the purposes of hand washing or, in d#2's case where hers is in the loft,
washing up.

*I lived in my grandmother's 'flat' (two thirds of a house on three floors)
for a while where the only source of hot water was a little gas water
heater over the kitchen sink - the slower the flow, the hotter the water.
The bathroom was next to the kitchen, the cast iron bath was huge (I could
have drowned in it without bending my knees) and there was no central
heating. It was impossible to have a decent hot bath in the winter, by the
time the bath was full the water was cool. That's when I discovered that
paraffin heaters in closed spaces are a bad idea.

[BrritSki]

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by BrritSki

Post by Penny
I thought combi boilers heated water as needed and are not usually combined
with a hot water tank so I'm surprised you have both - but I've never had a
combi boiler.

<https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/archive/boilers/what-is-a-combi-boiler>
We have a gas one. It's on all the time, but only actually burns any gas
when there's a need for hot water, either because we've run a hot tap
somewhere or because the underfloor heating has come on.

I think they work ok for baths*, although whenever I've stayed with my
children (who both have them) I've been unimpressed by their inability to
get hot water to a sink in timely fashion any distance from the boiler...

We had that problem with the original boiler, but we replaced it
recently and it has a bit more power and is fine now.

[Btms]

Post by BrritSki

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by BrritSki

Post by Penny
I thought combi boilers heated water as needed and are not usually combined
with a hot water tank so I'm surprised you have both - but I've never had a
combi boiler.

<https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/archive/boilers/what-is-a-combi-boiler>
We have a gas one. It's on all the time, but only actually burns any gas
when there's a need for hot water, either because we've run a hot tap
somewhere or because the underfloor heating has come on.

I think they work ok for baths*, although whenever I've stayed with my
children (who both have them) I've been unimpressed by their inability to
get hot water to a sink in timely fashion any distance from the boiler...

We had that problem with the original boiler, but we replaced it
recently and it has a bit more power and is fine now.

We have a combi boiler house in building outside the hose so it has a
journey to the bathroom. We have struggled with hot water for the bath but
the shower has been fine. Eventually, the plumber removed the control
entirely and all is well and has been for over a year. The hot water is
too hot now but there are only two of us and we are not daft.......yet.
Endless hot water whenever we want it and no tank in the house that might
leak or burst.

[Flop]

Post by BrritSki

Post by Penny
I thought combi boilers heated water as needed and are not usually combined
with a hot water tank so I'm surprised you have both - but I've never had a
combi boiler.

<https://www.worcester-bosch.co.uk/archive/boilers/what-is-a-combi-boiler>
We have a gas one. It's on all the time, but only actually burns any gas
when there's a need for hot water, either because we've run a hot tap
somewhere or because the underfloor heating has come on. It also fires
up every 6 hours or so for a few seconds to check the system.
We have no other form of water heating, but we supplement our ufh in the
winter with a log burner. We use about 1200L of LPG a year. No idea how
that converts into Therms, BTus or whatever other exotic units are in
use these days.

a) A HW tank is somewhat redundant as you have water on demand from the
combi.
The only advantage is that a combi can be significantly slower -
depending on its power rating - than a tank.
This is really only notable when filling baths.

b) There is a significant loss from the volume of the pipework from the
boiler to the tap or the CH pipes.

c) Gas meters are far less responsive than electricity. It takes a lot
of gas to increment by one unit and so using the meter reading to
measure used gas is not very accurate.

d) I am surprised that no-one has mentioned Smart Meters. They are quite
fun and very educational when it comes to estimating how much a gas or
electricity appliance uses in terms of energy or cost.

In theory, they will tell you how much you are spending per day and how
much since the last reading. However, the may not include VAT or
discounts ( dual fuel, online, DD). But they are reasonably accurate.

Very worthwhile considering - ask your supplier. (Different suppliers =
two meters).

[Jenny M Benson]

(Different suppliers = two meters).

I hope that only means a meter for gas and a meter for leccy, not 1
metre for x company and one for y company.

I am already agin the idea of swapping suppliers every few months -
cannot believe it is not adding to the cost of fuel for everyone - and
if it should mean having the meter(s) replaced at every switch ...

[Vicky]

Post by Flop
measure used gas is not very accurate.
d) I am surprised that no-one has mentioned Smart Meters. They are quite
fun and very educational when it comes to estimating how much a gas or
electricity appliance uses in terms of energy or cost.
In theory, they will tell you how much you are spending per day and how
much since the last reading. However, the may not include VAT or
discounts ( dual fuel, online, DD). But they are reasonably accurate.
Very worthwhile considering - ask your supplier. (Different suppliers =
two meters).

Thank you, I have asked the last 3 suppliers for a smart meter and
they are advertised several times an hour on the radio stations but
the suppliers say they are being rolled out over the next few years
and have not begun in my area.

[Chris McMillan]

Post by Vicky

Post by Flop
measure used gas is not very accurate.
d) I am surprised that no-one has mentioned Smart Meters. They are quite
fun and very educational when it comes to estimating how much a gas or
electricity appliance uses in terms of energy or cost.
In theory, they will tell you how much you are spending per day and how
much since the last reading. However, the may not include VAT or
discounts ( dual fuel, online, DD). But they are reasonably accurate.
Very worthwhile considering - ask your supplier. (Different suppliers =
two meters).

Thank you, I have asked the last 3 suppliers for a smart meter and
they are advertised several times an hour on the radio stations but
the suppliers say they are being rolled out over the next few years
and have not begun in my area.

Plus as yet, one smart meter is not a one size fits all, something which
isn't talked about. Probably Y and Y did a piece on it, though we did
watch one Watchdog prog (never again, the presentation was *dreadful*), or
possibly a special five day series from Rip Off Britain recently.

Sincerely Chris

[Mike]

Post by Chris McMillan

Post by Vicky

Post by Flop
measure used gas is not very accurate.
d) I am surprised that no-one has mentioned Smart Meters. They are quite
fun and very educational when it comes to estimating how much a gas or
electricity appliance uses in terms of energy or cost.
In theory, they will tell you how much you are spending per day and how
much since the last reading. However, the may not include VAT or
discounts ( dual fuel, online, DD). But they are reasonably accurate.
Very worthwhile considering - ask your supplier. (Different suppliers =
two meters).

Thank you, I have asked the last 3 suppliers for a smart meter and
they are advertised several times an hour on the radio stations but
the suppliers say they are being rolled out over the next few years
and have not begun in my area.

Plus as yet, one smart meter is not a one size fits all, something which
isn't talked about. Probably Y and Y did a piece on it, though we did
watch one Watchdog prog (never again, the presentation was *dreadful*), or
possibly a special five day series from Rip Off Britain recently.
Sincerely Chris

I suspect that the smart meter manufacturers and energy providers are
failing to use joined up thinking over this; I doubt that there are any
standard protocols in use and interchangeability has not been considered at
all. Surely however the metering gubbins are implemented, they could
feature an output following standards and protocols that all could adhere
to too. I suspect that the missing component from Offffgen is tha ability
to administer a really substantial kick to the situpons of the energy
suppliers - or am I trying to be too practical???-:)

[Nick Odell]

Post by Vicky

Post by Flop
measure used gas is not very accurate.
d) I am surprised that no-one has mentioned Smart Meters. They are quite
fun and very educational when it comes to estimating how much a gas or
electricity appliance uses in terms of energy or cost.
In theory, they will tell you how much you are spending per day and how
much since the last reading. However, the may not include VAT or
discounts ( dual fuel, online, DD). But they are reasonably accurate.
Very worthwhile considering - ask your supplier. (Different suppliers =
two meters).

Thank you, I have asked the last 3 suppliers for a smart meter and
they are advertised several times an hour on the radio stations but
the suppliers say they are being rolled out over the next few years
and have not begun in my area.

As well as the stated advantages, umrats may wish to consider the
possible disadvantages of having a smart meter installed. These include,
but are not limited to:

Multiple changes. The currently agreed standard, which it is hoped will
be the final standard is series 2. That means that people who were early
adopters will have had their first meter either changed or adapted to
series 1a or whatever they called it and may expect to have experienced
three (or more) meter changing visits before the program is finalised.
Many energy suppliers are currently still fitting series one meters
because they haven't got any series two meters, even though they know
they will have to take them out again and replace them. This is because
the government have set targets and penalties for not achieving them.

Incompatibility. Series two meters ought to work with any energy
supplier but many being fitted even now are incompatible between
suppliers. If you change supplier, your meter ought to continue to work
but it may become dumb - losing all the advantages of smart metering.

Insecurity. Yes, Russian hackers might switch off your gas and leccy
from your smart meter, but it's more likely they will shut down supplies
via the grid - unless you have a particular reason for that specific
paranoia. And AFAIK nobody has yet proved that the network could be
hijacked and used as a Dark Web but some people have found it more
difficult to challenge errors in these meters and there is the potential
for the energy supplier to remotely cut off supplies without discussion
if something goes wrong with the payment or the direct debit or whatever.

I get most of my information about smart metering from TheRegister.co.uk
which is an easily searchable resource.

Nick

[Penny]

On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 10:37:01 +0100, Nick Odell

Post by Nick Odell
As well as the stated advantages, umrats may wish to consider the
possible disadvantages of having a smart meter installed. These include,

[snip list]
plus recent horror stories of badly fitted smart meters causing fires.

[Serena Blanchflower]

d) I am surprised that no-one has mentioned Smart Meters. They are
quite fun and very educational when it comes to estimating how much a
gas or electricity appliance uses in terms of energy or cost.

I had one installed a couple of weeks ago. One thing which annoys me
about the display unit is that it isn't possible to either dim, or
switch off, the display - short of shutting the whole thing down. Given
that a large part of the selling point for these is that they make you
aware of how much energy you're wasting by leaving stuff on standby,
this seems rather perverse.

[Chris J Dixon]

Post by Vicky
B has now got really annoyed and is taking readings again for this
week and researching the matter online. He was wondering whether
keeping the hot water tank on is doing something about the usage. I
can't see how if it just tops up when a little is used for handwashing
or dishwasher.

I would have thought that the difference will be small, and
probably difficult to measure domestically. Looking at the
numbers on my largish insulated hot water tank, the heat loss is
equivalent to about 350 W, so simply maintaining its temperature
will use up to about 8.4 kWh per day, at a cost of something in
the region of 26p.

Limiting the run time of the boiler so that it only tops up the
temperature occasionally, (for instance you can probably turn it
off most of the night) will reduce the cost a little.

Chris

[Nick Odell]

Post by Chris J Dixon

Post by Vicky
B has now got really annoyed and is taking readings again for this
week and researching the matter online. He was wondering whether
keeping the hot water tank on is doing something about the usage. I
can't see how if it just tops up when a little is used for handwashing
or dishwasher.

I would have thought that the difference will be small, and
probably difficult to measure domestically. Looking at the
numbers on my largish insulated hot water tank, the heat loss is
equivalent to about 350 W, so simply maintaining its temperature
will use up to about 8.4 kWh per day, at a cost of something in
the region of 26p.
Limiting the run time of the boiler so that it only tops up the
temperature occasionally, (for instance you can probably turn it
off most of the night) will reduce the cost a little.

I'm never quite sure how that works. If the boiler is switched off
overnight and the temperature drifts lower and lower, won't it require
more energy in the morning to bring it back up again and you'll be
exactly where you started? Or does the temperature gradient have a
noticeable effect here?

Nick

[Mike]

Post by Nick Odell

Post by Chris J Dixon

Post by Vicky
B has now got really annoyed and is taking readings again for this
week and researching the matter online. He was wondering whether
keeping the hot water tank on is doing something about the usage. I
can't see how if it just tops up when a little is used for handwashing
or dishwasher.

I would have thought that the difference will be small, and
probably difficult to measure domestically. Looking at the
numbers on my largish insulated hot water tank, the heat loss is
equivalent to about 350 W, so simply maintaining its temperature
will use up to about 8.4 kWh per day, at a cost of something in
the region of 26p.
Limiting the run time of the boiler so that it only tops up the
temperature occasionally, (for instance you can probably turn it
off most of the night) will reduce the cost a little.

I'm never quite sure how that works. If the boiler is switched off
overnight and the temperature drifts lower and lower, won't it require
more energy in the morning to bring it back up again and you'll be
exactly where you started? Or does the temperature gradient have a
noticeable effect here?
Nick

The difference would be the heat loss from the storage container; the
insulation will help to retain a lot of the heat but, there are still
losses.

[BrritSki]

Post by Nick Odell
I'm never quite sure how that works. If the boiler is switched off
overnight and the temperature drifts lower and lower, won't it require
more energy in the morning to bring it back up again and you'll be
exactly where you started? Or does the temperature gradient have a
noticeable effect here?

Assuming the temperature gradient is reasonably linear it ought not to
make much difference, but I would imagine that each time you fire up the
boiler there is a small amount of energy wasted in getting the element
up to temperature, and then there's the extra wear and tear on the
overall system from switching on/off repeatedly.

I doubt if it's very significant though unless you're switching every
few minutes - I'd be more concerned about the noise level at night as
I've known some older systems that are very noisy when they start up [1].

OTOH, I suspect that there is a greater heat loss at the higher temp.
esp. if it is set TOO high. Where's a physicist when you need one
(Mike/Sid) ?

[1] Our Italian combi boiler does make a clatter when it's turned on but
we still have it set to come on at about 5 AM so that when we wake up a
couple of hours later the house is comfortable - there's nothing like
walking into the bathroom on a cold morning to be met with warm tiles :)

The system is set at 18C and turns off again at about 9 and then stays
warm until the afternoon. Exactly when depends on how often we come in
and out and the external temp. of course, but when it's winter we
usually light the fire before the ufh kicks in again and then it's not
necessary as the controlling thermostat is in the living room.

[Peter Percival]

Post by BrritSki
OTOH, I suspect that there is a greater heat loss at the higher temp.

Yes. Newton's law of cooling.

Post by BrritSki
esp. if it is set TOO high. Where's a physicist when you need one
(Mike/Sid) ?

[Mike]

Post by Peter Percival

Post by BrritSki
OTOH, I suspect that there is a greater heat loss at the higher temp.

Yes. Newton's law of cooling.

Post by BrritSki
esp. if it is set TOO high. Where's a physicist when you need one
(Mike/Sid) ?

The greater the differential between water temperature and the ambient
temperature outside of the tank, the greater the heat transference.

[Mike Ruddock]

Post by Mike

Post by Peter Percival

Post by BrritSki
OTOH, I suspect that there is a greater heat loss at the higher temp.

Yes. Newton's law of cooling.

Post by BrritSki
esp. if it is set TOO high. Where's a physicist when you need one
(Mike/Sid) ?

The greater the differential between water temperature and the ambient
temperature outside of the tank, the greater the heat transference.

This is undoubtedly correct, but there are complications; in some steam
generating systems it is more efficient to leave small diameter pipes
totally uninsulated as to apply insulation increases the area from which
heat can be lost and the temperature drop through such insulation is not
sufficient to compensate. (This may no longer be true with modern
insulating material but was certainty true 50 years ago.)

Newton's Law of cooling applies (and then only approximately) to
convective/radiative cooling under conditions of no insulation (apart
from that pertaining to free air). We are here concerned with cooling
where some kind of insulation is applied to the outside of the tank.
I suspect that the solution to the problem of achieving best economy
will vary from set-up to set-up. "What is all right for B would quite
scandalise C . . . "

Mike Ruddock

[Chris J Dixon]

Post by Mike Ruddock
This is undoubtedly correct, but there are complications; in some steam
generating systems it is more efficient to leave small diameter pipes
totally uninsulated as to apply insulation increases the area from which
heat can be lost and the temperature drop through such insulation is not
sufficient to compensate. (This may no longer be true with modern
insulating material but was certainty true 50 years ago.)

That is certainly counter-intuitive. I do not doubt what you are
reporting, but I would be interested to see it worked out in
numbers.

Chris

[Mike Ruddock]

Post by Chris J Dixon

Post by Mike Ruddock
This is undoubtedly correct, but there are complications; in some steam
generating systems it is more efficient to leave small diameter pipes
totally uninsulated as to apply insulation increases the area from which
heat can be lost and the temperature drop through such insulation is not
sufficient to compensate. (This may no longer be true with modern
insulating material but was certainty true 50 years ago.)

That is certainly counter-intuitive. I do not doubt what you are
reporting, but I would be interested to see it worked out in
numbers.
Chris

A quick google throws up a lot of references. The best seems to be by Dr
Alan Stevens. It can be found on www.raeng.org/publications/other/2
steam-pipe. The graph in fig 2 shows that what I said is broadly true,
particularly when you take into account the cost of the insulation.

Mike Ruddock

[BrritSki]

Post by Mike Ruddock

Post by Chris J Dixon

Post by Mike Ruddock
This is undoubtedly correct, but there are complications; in some steam
generating systems it is more efficient to leave small diameter pipes
totally uninsulated as to apply insulation increases the area from which
heat can be lost and the temperature drop through such insulation is not
sufficient to compensate. (This may no longer be true with modern
insulating material but was certainty true 50 years ago.)

That is certainly counter-intuitive. I do not doubt what you are
reporting, but I would be interested to see it worked out in
numbers.
Chris

A quick google throws up a lot of references. The best seems to be by Dr
Alan Stevens. It can be found on www.raeng.org/publications/other/2
steam-pipe. The graph in fig 2 shows that what I said is broadly true,
particularly when you take into account the cost of the insulation.

I knew you wouldn't let me down Mike, but that link has unfortunately...

[Mike Ruddock]

Post by BrritSki

Post by Mike Ruddock

Post by Chris J Dixon

Post by Mike Ruddock
This is undoubtedly correct, but there are complications; in some steam
generating systems it is more efficient to leave small diameter pipes
totally uninsulated as to apply insulation increases the area from which
heat can be lost and the temperature drop through such insulation is not
sufficient to compensate. (This may no longer be true with modern
insulating material but was certainty true 50 years ago.)

That is certainly counter-intuitive. I do not doubt what you are
reporting, but I would be interested to see it worked out in
numbers.
Chris

A quick google throws up a lot of references. The best seems to be by
Dr Alan Stevens. It can be found on www.raeng.org/publications/other/2
steam-pipe. The graph in fig 2 shows that what I said is broadly true,
particularly when you take into account the cost of the insulation.

I knew you wouldn't let me down Mike, but that link has unfortunately...

Sorry about that. There should be no space between the "2" and the
"steam-pipe"

Mike Ruddock

[BrritSki]

Post by Mike Ruddock

Post by BrritSki

Post by Mike Ruddock
A quick google throws up a lot of references. The best seems to be by
Dr Alan Stevens. It can be found on www.raeng.org/publications/other/2
steam-pipe. The graph in fig 2 shows that what I said is broadly true,
particularly when you take into account the cost of the insulation.

I knew you wouldn't let me down Mike, but that link has unfortunately...

Sorry about that. There should be no space between the "2" and the
"steam-pipe"

Nope, still broken for me

[Peter Percival]

Post by BrritSki

Post by Mike Ruddock

Post by BrritSki

Post by Mike Ruddock
A quick google throws up a lot of references. The best seems to
be by Dr Alan Stevens. It can be found on
www.raeng.org/publications/other/2 steam-pipe. The graph in fig
2 shows that what I said is broadly true, particularly when you
take into account the cost of the insulation.

I knew you wouldn't let me down Mike, but that link has
unfortunately...

Sorry about that. There should be no space between the "2" and the
"steam-pipe"

Nope, still broken for me

Try http://www.raeng.org.uk/publications/other/2-steam-pipe .

[Chris J Dixon]

Post by Mike Ruddock
A quick google throws up a lot of references. The best seems to be by Dr
Alan Stevens. It can be found on www.raeng.org/publications/other/2
steam-pipe. The graph in fig 2 shows that what I said is broadly true,
particularly when you take into account the cost of the insulation.

Thanks for that, I had no idea those conditions could ever exist,
I would have assumed that insulation was always advantageous.

Chris

[Penny]

On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 12:12:10 +0200, BrritSki <***@gmail.com>
scrawled in the dust...

Post by BrritSki
I would imagine that each time you fire up the
boiler there is a small amount of energy wasted in getting the element
up to temperature, and then there's the extra wear and tear on the
overall system from switching on/off repeatedly.

Surely that is what the thermostat does - switching it on and off as needed
- not sure how it can be avoided.

I'm not convinced I would save any money by maintaining a full tank of hot
water all the time when I only use a full tank once a week. I rather regret
no getting one or two water-heating solar panels when I had my
photovoltaics fitted but since the hot water tank is fed from the tank in
the roof, water takes less time to heat in the summer.

When I lived in a house with an immersion heater in the tank it was dual
length - basin and bath. Only switched to bath when necessary.

[Chris J Dixon]

Post by Penny
I'm not convinced I would save any money by maintaining a full tank of hot
water all the time when I only use a full tank once a week. I rather regret
no getting one or two water-heating solar panels when I had my
photovoltaics fitted but since the hot water tank is fed from the tank in
the roof, water takes less time to heat in the summer.

I would tend to agree with you. As my roof is full with the PV, I
don't have the option to add water heating.

I used to have a simple old gas boiler, and used the immersion
heater on E7 in the summer. I got caught a few years ago when
they changed my gas meter. The old one didn't register the pilot
light, being the only usage over the summer. After the change I
saw what it was costing and turned it off completely for the
summer.

I now have a condensing boiler with spark ignition, but the
replacement PCB, just after warranty expired, cost several years
energy saving.

Chris

[BrritSki]

Post by Chris J Dixon
I now have a condensing boiler with spark ignition, but the
replacement PCB, just after warranty expired, cost several years
energy saving.

Same here. We decided it would be better to get a completely new boiler
for not that much extra and benefit from a new warranty...

:(

[Mike]

Post by Chris J Dixon

Post by Penny
I'm not convinced I would save any money by maintaining a full tank of hot
water all the time when I only use a full tank once a week. I rather regret
no getting one or two water-heating solar panels when I had my
photovoltaics fitted but since the hot water tank is fed from the tank in
the roof, water takes less time to heat in the summer.

I would tend to agree with you. As my roof is full with the PV, I
don't have the option to add water heating.
I used to have a simple old gas boiler, and used the immersion
heater on E7 in the summer. I got caught a few years ago when
they changed my gas meter. The old one didn't register the pilot
light, being the only usage over the summer. After the change I
saw what it was costing and turned it off completely for the
summer.
I now have a condensing boiler with spark ignition, but the
replacement PCB, just after warranty expired, cost several years
energy saving.
Chris

IME, the spark ignition type boilers have a death nell built into the
originally fitted controller PCB; I have heard of and experienced such
failures on our own BG service contracted system. The PCB replacements
produce a narsty £250 odd size bill for a replacement, one a year costs as
much as a service contract!

[Chris J Dixon]

Post by Mike

Post by Chris J Dixon
I now have a condensing boiler with spark ignition, but the
replacement PCB, just after warranty expired, cost several years
energy saving.

IME, the spark ignition type boilers have a death nell built into the
originally fitted controller PCB; I have heard of and experienced such
failures on our own BG service contracted system. The PCB replacements
produce a narsty £250 odd size bill for a replacement, one a year costs as
much as a service contract!

I have to admit that it is now a good few years on, and it has
had no further faults (or service).

Chris

[Penny]

On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 15:51:38 +0100, Chris J Dixon <***@cdixon.me.uk>
scrawled in the dust...

Post by Chris J Dixon

Post by Penny
I'm not convinced I would save any money by maintaining a full tank of hot
water all the time when I only use a full tank once a week. I rather regret
no getting one or two water-heating solar panels when I had my
photovoltaics fitted but since the hot water tank is fed from the tank in
the roof, water takes less time to heat in the summer.

I would tend to agree with you. As my roof is full with the PV, I
don't have the option to add water heating.
I used to have a simple old gas boiler, and used the immersion
heater on E7 in the summer. I got caught a few years ago when
they changed my gas meter. The old one didn't register the pilot
light, being the only usage over the summer. After the change I
saw what it was costing and turned it off completely for the
summer.
I now have a condensing boiler with spark ignition, but the
replacement PCB, just after warranty expired, cost several years
energy saving.

Please explain PCB in this context, it seems to be used for a number of
different things.

I have an oldish gas meter and a probably newer condensing boiler with
spark ignition which seems to be more efficient since my heating engineer
corrected all the errors in plumbing and electrics to it. Sadly he no
longer does domestic work - I reckon he couldn't face the thought of
replacing my boiler when it dies.

[BrritSki]

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by Chris J Dixon
I now have a condensing boiler with spark ignition, but the
replacement PCB, just after warranty expired, cost several years
energy saving.

Please explain PCB in this context, it seems to be used for a number of
different things.

Printed Circuit Board

[Penny]

On Tue, 15 Aug 2017 19:59:06 +0200, BrritSki <***@gmail.com>
scrawled in the dust...

Post by BrritSki

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by Chris J Dixon
I now have a condensing boiler with spark ignition, but the
replacement PCB, just after warranty expired, cost several years
energy saving.

Please explain PCB in this context, it seems to be used for a number of
different things.

Printed Circuit Board

Ah, some electronic part was replaced a couple of years ago - don't recall
what it cost.

[Mike]

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by Chris J Dixon

Post by Penny
I'm not convinced I would save any money by maintaining a full tank of hot
water all the time when I only use a full tank once a week. I rather regret
no getting one or two water-heating solar panels when I had my
photovoltaics fitted but since the hot water tank is fed from the tank in
the roof, water takes less time to heat in the summer.

I would tend to agree with you. As my roof is full with the PV, I
don't have the option to add water heating.
I used to have a simple old gas boiler, and used the immersion
heater on E7 in the summer. I got caught a few years ago when
they changed my gas meter. The old one didn't register the pilot
light, being the only usage over the summer. After the change I
saw what it was costing and turned it off completely for the
summer.
I now have a condensing boiler with spark ignition, but the
replacement PCB, just after warranty expired, cost several years
energy saving.

Please explain PCB in this context, it seems to be used for a number of
different things.
I have an oldish gas meter and a probably newer condensing boiler with
spark ignition which seems to be more efficient since my heating engineer
corrected all the errors in plumbing and electrics to it. Sadly he no
longer does domestic work - I reckon he couldn't face the thought of
replacing my boiler when it dies.

PCB = Printed Circuit Board in this instance.

[BrritSki]

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by BrritSki
I would imagine that each time you fire up the
boiler there is a small amount of energy wasted in getting the element
up to temperature, and then there's the extra wear and tear on the
overall system from switching on/off repeatedly.

Surely that is what the thermostat does - switching it on and off as needed
- not sure how it can be avoided.

Yes it does, but it will have some lag in it i.e. if set at 18C it won't
come on until it drops to 17.5 and then doesn't turn off until 18.5.

[Mike]

Post by BrritSki

Post by Penny
scrawled in the dust...

Post by BrritSki
I would imagine that each time you fire up the
boiler there is a small amount of energy wasted in getting the element
up to temperature, and then there's the extra wear and tear on the
overall system from switching on/off repeatedly.

Surely that is what the thermostat does - switching it on and off as needed
- not sure how it can be avoided.

Yes it does, but it will have some lag in it i.e. if set at 18C it won't
come on until it drops to 17.5 and then doesn't turn off until 18.5.

A very tight hysteresis on the on-off cycle would be very counter
productive.

[Fenny]

Post by Penny

Post by BrritSki
I would imagine that each time you fire up the
boiler there is a small amount of energy wasted in getting the element
up to temperature, and then there's the extra wear and tear on the
overall system from switching on/off repeatedly.

Surely that is what the thermostat does - switching it on and off as needed
- not sure how it can be avoided.
I'm not convinced I would save any money by maintaining a full tank of hot
water all the time when I only use a full tank once a week.

I only use the boiler to heat the tank when it's on for heating the
house. As soon as the heating goes off, I use the immersion heater
for 20 minutes overnight on E7. The tank insulation is sufficient to
keep the water hot so that if I have a bath in the evening, it's more
than sufficient. I don't think the cost is excessive for my
non-regular bath taking habit and I don't need to decide beforehand to
turn the immersion heater on during the high rate hours if I want a
bath.

[Vicky]

On Wed, 09 Aug 2017 19:57:52 +0100, Fenny

Post by Fenny

Post by Vicky
Ok still waiting to resolve bill with flow energy
Appparently many people get bills over 1k when they leave a supplier.
odd? B has been checking. i emailed the readings for a 7 day period to
my new supplier, Npower, as requested and got another request to do
so!
I emailed them again. Also got emails from flow saying npower had no
record of a complaint. All these took 3-4 weeks each.
I emailed both copied again to say so and today got this from
Npower(who have to check the meter as the current supllier
We have looked at your meter readings you have taken over 7 days and
can see that they are advancing by at least 30 units every day which
seems quite high.
We recommend that you discuss this with our Energy Efficiency team in
order to look into your usage alongside your readings to determine if
there is a fault with the meter.
I understand you have requested your complaint to be dealt with by
email due to being hard of hearing.
Unfortunately our Energy Efficiency team will be unable to discuss
this over email but they do have access to our text talk service.
In order to use this service to discuss this with them please contact
0800 413 016. "
So because I want email contact, partly my hearing but really as I
want a written record, I need to phone to get it!

Sounds like a load of bolleaux to me. I had some issues switching
from SSE to EDF last year and I dealt with it all by email. I had a
problem with getting my cashback confirmed this year when I switched
Pa from Npower to SSE. The cashback co wanted info I didn't have and
asked me to contact SSE. I did it all by email.
Npower used to be a total PITA, but when Pa was with them until
recently, they seemed to have improved a lot. My advice would be to
do an online chat and say that if they don't use email, you will
switch to someone who understands how to deal with customers' specific
access needs properly. Make it clear that you want the written record
for hearing issues and also so that you can look at it at your leisure
without being pressured into anything in the moment and that you will
complain about how they implement whatever the current version of DDA
is if they can't do what you want.
30 units a day does seem like a lot, but it depends what you have
running.

Thanks. I had forgotten the DDA. I will mention it. We don't cook
much. Electric oven and microwave. I shower at the gym and pool every
day so not much hot water and no heating in the times the readings
were for. We have a 3-bed, mid-terrace house, 7 years old, holds the
heat well. B can no longer bath as is scared getting in and out even
with extra handholds and showers are very tiring for him, so not
daily. (he does wash and does not smell bad!).

What really bugged me was Flow suggesting I LOWER my direct debit in
the month I left when they then said I owed 500+ and they have not
replied about that.

[Chris J Dixon]

Post by Vicky
We have looked at your meter readings you have taken over 7 days and
can see that they are advancing by at least 30 units every day which
seems quite high.

I send Scottish Power my readings most months. My overall usage
is below average, yet even in the summer months the system asks
me to check my figures (which are accurate) because they look
high (they are not).

Chris

[Penny]

On Mon, 14 Aug 2017 13:49:05 +0100, Chris J Dixon <***@cdixon.me.uk>
scrawled in the dust...

Post by Chris J Dixon
I send Scottish Power my readings most months. My overall usage
is below average, yet even in the summer months the system asks
me to check my figures (which are accurate) because they look
high (they are not).

I've moved away from Scottish Power now but for the first year after my
solar panels were fitted I phoned them every time they suggested increasing
my DD to tell them not to be so silly (I eventually realised they were
going against their own rules by doing this every month). I too decided the
way forward was to send monthly readings.

I switched in January and confused my new supplier by doing this - their
app always asks me to check, presumably because it thinks the difference
between current reading and previous is too low.