Discussion:
Mother, mam, mum, mummy
(too old to reply)
Quinn C
2017-11-25 16:11:07 UTC
Permalink
I know this isn't new, but I don't remember details ...

Ran across this tweet the other day:
<https://twitter.com/junethomas/status/781796223808311296>

It says

| The British class system is never more obvious than in a card store.

and then shows a photo of various greeting cards addressed to
mother, mam, mum, mummy, respectively.

Not obvious at all to a foreigner. I would have thought that
there's some regional and individual variation in this as well. Is
it really, to this day, strongly class-based?

German has as many widely used words - Mutter, Mutti, Mama, Mami
-, but they carry no indication of class to me. I would never
seriously address my mother as "Mutter" in speaking, but I may
find it most appropriate in writing now that I'm an adult.
--
The Eskimoes had fifty-two names for snow because it was
important to them, there ought to be as many for love.
-- Margaret Atwood, Surfacing (novel), p.106
Mack A. Damia
2017-11-25 16:25:17 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 25 Nov 2017 11:11:07 -0500, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
I know this isn't new, but I don't remember details ...
<https://twitter.com/junethomas/status/781796223808311296>
It says
| The British class system is never more obvious than in a card store.
and then shows a photo of various greeting cards addressed to
mother, mam, mum, mummy, respectively.
Not obvious at all to a foreigner. I would have thought that
there's some regional and individual variation in this as well. Is
it really, to this day, strongly class-based?
German has as many widely used words - Mutter, Mutti, Mama, Mami
-, but they carry no indication of class to me. I would never
seriously address my mother as "Mutter" in speaking, but I may
find it most appropriate in writing now that I'm an adult.
Many years ago:

Me: I am going to a lecture today.

Friend: At the university?

Me: No, I am having lunch with mother.
GordonD
2017-11-25 16:28:43 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
I know this isn't new, but I don't remember details ...
<https://twitter.com/junethomas/status/781796223808311296>
It says
| The British class system is never more obvious than in a card store.
and then shows a photo of various greeting cards addressed to mother,
mam, mum, mummy, respectively.
Not obvious at all to a foreigner. I would have thought that there's
some regional and individual variation in this as well. Is it really,
to this day, strongly class-based?
German has as many widely used words - Mutter, Mutti, Mama, Mami -,
but they carry no indication of class to me. I would never seriously
address my mother as "Mutter" in speaking, but I may find it most
appropriate in writing now that I'm an adult.
In general I would say that a fairly young child would use "Mummy" and
change to "Mum" as he grew older. (I did.) The age where this change
takes place varies on the individual - I believe Prince Charles hasn't
yet reached it! My dad and his brother always addressed my grandmother
as "Mother". And "Mam" is regional.
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2017-11-25 17:44:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by GordonD
Post by Quinn C
I know this isn't new, but I don't remember details ...
<https://twitter.com/junethomas/status/781796223808311296>
It says
| The British class system is never more obvious than in a card store.
and then shows a photo of various greeting cards addressed to mother,
mam, mum, mummy, respectively.
Not obvious at all to a foreigner. I would have thought that there's
some regional and individual variation in this as well. Is it really,
to this day, strongly class-based?
German has as many widely used words - Mutter, Mutti, Mama, Mami -,
but they carry no indication of class to me. I would never seriously
address my mother as "Mutter" in speaking, but I may find it most
appropriate in writing now that I'm an adult.
In general I would say that a fairly young child would use "Mummy" and
change to "Mum" as he grew older. (I did.) The age where this change
takes place varies on the individual - I believe Prince Charles hasn't
yet reached it! My dad and his brother always addressed my grandmother
as "Mother". And "Mam" is regional.
Something Prince Charles and I have in common. However, my mother was
Irish and his isn't, and in Ireland it remains common for adults to
address their mothers as Mummy.
--
athel
Colonel Edmund J. Burke
2017-11-25 20:34:31 UTC
Permalink
Something Prince Charles and I have in common. However, my mother was Irish and his isn't, and in Ireland it remains common for adults to address their mothers as Mummy.
John Wayne went over to Ireland once and kicked the shit outa them cousins of the buck teeth.
Discuss how he kicked the shit outa 'em....
Tony
2017-11-26 01:30:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Colonel Edmund J. Burke
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Something Prince Charles and I have in common. However, my mother was
Irish and his isn't, and in Ireland it remains common for adults to
address their mothers as Mummy.
John Wayne went over to Ireland once and kicked the shit outa them
cousins of the buck teeth.
Discuss how he kicked the shit outa 'em....
My roots go back to Northern Ireland back to Kings and Queens on
Ancestry.com yup just like in the movie Tommy the Kings and Queens
pinball machine.
David Kleinecke
2017-11-26 02:22:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tony
Post by Colonel Edmund J. Burke
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Something Prince Charles and I have in common. However, my mother was
Irish and his isn't, and in Ireland it remains common for adults to
address their mothers as Mummy.
John Wayne went over to Ireland once and kicked the shit outa them
cousins of the buck teeth.
Discuss how he kicked the shit outa 'em....
My roots go back to Northern Ireland back to Kings and Queens on
Ancestry.com yup just like in the movie Tommy the Kings and Queens
pinball machine.
Back in the 1920-30's my mother's mother did her best on my
mother's ancestors. She collected about a thousand named
ancestors. About ten of the ancestoral lines she found ended
with a lengthy genealogy of descent from one of the kings of
England (none more recent than Edward III).

Perhaps ancestory.com - or a competitor can do even better
(more named ancestors) today.
David
2017-11-29 10:44:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Something Prince Charles and I have in common. However, my mother was
Irish and his isn't, and in Ireland it remains common for adults to
address their mothers as Mummy.
John Wayne went over to Ireland once and kicked the shit outa them cousins
of the buck teeth.
Discuss how he kicked the shit outa 'em....

I have missing teeth that have been replaced.
Colonel Edmund J. Burke
2017-11-29 14:50:53 UTC
Permalink
Post by David
I have missing teeth that have been replaced.
Shame the doctors can't do that with missing brain cells.
dolf
2017-12-03 14:04:52 UTC
Permalink
— Dense as Bushmeat —

“Softly softly
Catchy monkey.
Such tucker
As bushmeat.

Looky Looky.
On the money.
Witless wanker.
Seditious heat.

Lies ‘n porky.
Dense donkey.
Endless rancour.
Diseased treat.”

YOUTUBE: “Catchy Monkey (Kovak)”



- dolf

Initial Post: 3 December 2017
Post by Colonel Edmund J. Burke
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Something Prince Charles and I have in common. However, my mother was
Irish and his isn't, and in Ireland it remains common for adults to
address their mothers as Mummy.
John Wayne went over to Ireland once and kicked the shit outa them
cousins of the buck teeth.
Discuss how he kicked the shit outa 'em....
--
SEE ALSO: *INVALIDATING* *THE* *ORTHODOX* *AND* *ROMAN* *CATHOLIC*
*CHURCH'S* *CLAIM* *TO* *JUBILEE2000* *AS* *BEING* *DELUSIONAL* *AND*
*FRAUDULENT*

Private Street on the edge of the Central Business District dated 16th
May, 2000 - This report is prepared in response to a TP00/55 as a Notice of
an Application for Planning Permit

- <http://www.grapple369.com/jubilee2000.html>

SEE ALSO: HYPOSTATIS as DAO OF NATURE (Chinese: ZIRAN) / COURSE (Greek:
TROCHOS) OF NATURE (Greek: GENESIS) [James 3:6]

Chinese HAN Dynasty (206 BCE - 220CE) Hexagon Trigrams to Tetragram
assignments proposed by Yang Hsiung (53BCE - 18CE) which by 4BCE
(translation published within English as first European language in 1993),
first appeared in draft form as a meta-thesis titled T'AI HSUAN CHING {ie.
Canon of Supreme Mystery} on Natural Divination associated with the theory
of number, annual seasonal chronology and astrology reliant upon the seven
visible planets as cosmological mother image and the zodiac.

It shows the ZIRAN as the DAO of NATURE / COURSE-trochos OF
NATURE-genesis [James 3:6] as HYPOSTATIS comprising #81 trinomial
tetragrammaton x 4.5 day = #364.5 day / year as HOMOIOS THEORY OF NUMBER
which is an amalgam of the 64 hexagrams as binomial trigrams / 81 as
trinomial tetragrammaton rather than its encapsulated contrived use as the
microcosm to redefine the macrocosm as the quintessence of the Pythagorean
[Babylonian] as binomial canon of transposition as HETEROS THEORY OF
NUMBER.

- <http://www.grapple369.com/nature.html>

The Charter of Human Rights and Responsibilities No. 43 of Act 2006
defines a "PERSON MEANS A HUMAN BEING” and the question is, if it is
permissible to extend this definition to be a "PERSON MEANS A HUMAN BEING
AS A CONSCIOUS REALITY OF HOMO[iOS] SAPIEN[T] WHO IS INSTANTIATED WITHIN
THE TEMPORAL REALITY AS THEN THE CAUSE FOR REASONING AND RATIONALITY."

That my mathematical theoretical noumenon defines the meta-descriptor
prototypes which are prerequisite to the BEING of HOMO[iOS] SAPIEN[T] as
EXISTENCE.

- http://www.grapple369.com/Grapple.zip (Download resources)

After all the ENNEAD of THOTH and not the Roman Catholic Eucharist,
expresses an Anthropic Cosmological Principle which appears within its
geometric conception as being equivalent to the Pythagorean
TETRAD/TETRACTYS
David
2017-12-04 07:04:37 UTC
Permalink
it isn't on any of my coffee mugs

"dolf" wrote in message news:tNKdnfvhA-QZmbnHnZ2dnUU7-***@giganews.com...

— Dense as Bushmeat —

“Softly softly
Catchy monkey.
Such tucker
As bushmeat.

Looky Looky.
On the money.
Witless wanker.
Seditious heat.

Lies ‘n porky.
Dense donkey.
Endless rancour.
Diseased treat.”

YOUTUBE: “Catchy Monkey (Kovak)”

http://youtu.be/9m1mBhqFZ5k

- dolf

Initial Post: 3 December 2017
Post by Colonel Edmund J. Burke
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Something Prince Charles and I have in common. However, my mother was
Irish and his isn't, and in Ireland it remains common for adults to
address their mothers as Mummy.
John Wayne went over to Ireland once and kicked the shit outa them
cousins of the buck teeth.
Discuss how he kicked the shit outa 'em....
--
SEE ALSO: *INVALIDATING* *THE* *ORTHODOX* *AND* *ROMAN* *CATHOLIC*
*CHURCH'S* *CLAIM* *TO* *JUBILEE2000* *AS* *BEING* *DELUSIONAL* *AND*
*FRAUDULENT*

Private Street on the edge of the Central Business District dated 16th
May, 2000 - This report is prepared in response to a TP00/55 as a Notice of
an Application for Planning Permit

- <http://www.grapple369.com/jubilee2000.html>

SEE ALSO: HYPOSTATIS as DAO OF NATURE (Chinese: ZIRAN) / COURSE (Greek:
TROCHOS) OF NATURE (Greek: GENESIS) [James 3:6]

Chinese HAN Dynasty (206 BCE - 220CE) Hexagon Trigrams to Tetragram
assignments proposed by Yang Hsiung (53BCE - 18CE) which by 4BCE
(translation published within English as first European language in 1993),
first appeared in draft form as a meta-thesis titled T'AI HSUAN CHING {ie.
Canon of Supreme Mystery} on Natural Divination associated with the theory
of number, annual seasonal chronology and astrology reliant upon the seven
visible planets as cosmological mother image and the zodiac.

It shows the ZIRAN as the DAO of NATURE / COURSE-trochos OF
NATURE-genesis [James 3:6] as HYPOSTATIS comprising #81 trinomial
tetragrammaton x 4.5 day = #364.5 day / year as HOMOIOS THEORY OF NUMBER
which is an amalgam of the 64 hexagrams as binomial trigrams / 81 as
trinomial tetragrammaton rather than its encapsulated contrived use as the
microcosm to redefine the macrocosm as the quintessence of the Pythagorean
[Babylonian] as binomial canon of transposition as HETEROS THEORY OF
NUMBER.

- <http://www.grapple369.com/nature.html>

The Charter of Human Rights and Responsibilities No. 43 of Act 2006
defines a "PERSON MEANS A HUMAN BEING” and the question is, if it is
permissible to extend this definition to be a "PERSON MEANS A HUMAN BEING
AS A CONSCIOUS REALITY OF HOMO[iOS] SAPIEN[T] WHO IS INSTANTIATED WITHIN
THE TEMPORAL REALITY AS THEN THE CAUSE FOR REASONING AND RATIONALITY."

That my mathematical theoretical noumenon defines the meta-descriptor
prototypes which are prerequisite to the BEING of HOMO[iOS] SAPIEN[T] as
EXISTENCE.

- http://www.grapple369.com/Grapple.zip (Download resources)

After all the ENNEAD of THOTH and not the Roman Catholic Eucharist,
expresses an Anthropic Cosmological Principle which appears within its
geometric conception as being equivalent to the Pythagorean
TETRAD/TETRACTYS
Cheryl
2017-11-25 23:51:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by GordonD
Post by Quinn C
I know this isn't new, but I don't remember details ...
<https://twitter.com/junethomas/status/781796223808311296>
It says
| The British class system is never more obvious than in a card store.
and then shows a photo of various greeting cards addressed to mother,
mam, mum, mummy, respectively.
Not obvious at all to a foreigner. I would have thought that there's
some regional and individual variation in this as well. Is it really,
to this day, strongly class-based?
German has as many widely used words - Mutter, Mutti, Mama, Mami -,
but they carry no indication of class to me. I would never seriously
address my mother as "Mutter" in speaking, but I may find it most
appropriate in writing now that I'm an adult.
In general I would say that a fairly young child would use "Mummy" and
change to "Mum" as he grew older. (I did.) The age where this change
takes place varies on the individual - I believe Prince Charles hasn't
yet reached it! My dad and his brother always addressed my grandmother
as "Mother". And "Mam" is regional.
Something Prince Charles and I have in common. However, my mother was
Irish and his isn't, and in Ireland it remains common for adults to
address their mothers as Mummy.
And me, although the practice is extremely uncommon here, and arose in
my family, because at around the time the switch from 'Mommy' to 'Mom'
would occur, we still lived in the same town as our grandparents, who
we'd always addressed as 'Mom' and 'Dad', and it would have been too
confusing to have two Moms and Dads. Most grandparents adopted
particular nicknames - 'Nanny' and 'Pop' were popular and traditional -
but my 'Nan' was my great-grandmother, even though she died before I was
born, she was often referred to by name as I grew up.

My cousins used to use "Mom LastName" for our grandmother to disinguish
Mom-our-grandmother from Mom-our-mother.

People outside the family were simply confused when they asked us about
our Mom or Dad and, unless we mentally corrected the reference - got an
answer about our grandparents.
--
Cheryl

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
https://www.avast.com/antivirus
Quinn C
2017-11-25 18:23:02 UTC
Permalink
Post by GordonD
Post by Quinn C
I know this isn't new, but I don't remember details ...
<https://twitter.com/junethomas/status/781796223808311296>
It says
| The British class system is never more obvious than in a card store.
and then shows a photo of various greeting cards addressed to mother,
mam, mum, mummy, respectively.
Not obvious at all to a foreigner. I would have thought that there's
some regional and individual variation in this as well. Is it really,
to this day, strongly class-based?
German has as many widely used words - Mutter, Mutti, Mama, Mami -,
but they carry no indication of class to me. I would never seriously
address my mother as "Mutter" in speaking, but I may find it most
appropriate in writing now that I'm an adult.
In general I would say that a fairly young child would use "Mummy" and
change to "Mum" as he grew older. (I did.) The age where this change
takes place varies on the individual - I believe Prince Charles hasn't
yet reached it! My dad and his brother always addressed my grandmother
as "Mother".
Were they copying one of their parents? I believe that's one way
addresses for grandparents arise in families.

It's confusing for kids at first that people should have so many
different names depending on who's talking to them, or about them.
When I was small, it was still somewhat common to call unrelated
adults "uncle" or "aunt". Now we didn't have a lot of visitors at
home, but the two adult males who visited most frequently were my
mother's brother and my father's best friend, and they happened to
share the same first name. I had a hard time remembering for which
one I was supposed to add "uncle".
Post by GordonD
And "Mam" is regional.
So I suspected.
--
Press any key to continue or any other key to quit.
Cheryl
2017-11-25 23:53:37 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by GordonD
Post by Quinn C
I know this isn't new, but I don't remember details ...
<https://twitter.com/junethomas/status/781796223808311296>
It says
| The British class system is never more obvious than in a card store.
and then shows a photo of various greeting cards addressed to mother,
mam, mum, mummy, respectively.
Not obvious at all to a foreigner. I would have thought that there's
some regional and individual variation in this as well. Is it really,
to this day, strongly class-based?
German has as many widely used words - Mutter, Mutti, Mama, Mami -,
but they carry no indication of class to me. I would never seriously
address my mother as "Mutter" in speaking, but I may find it most
appropriate in writing now that I'm an adult.
In general I would say that a fairly young child would use "Mummy" and
change to "Mum" as he grew older. (I did.) The age where this change
takes place varies on the individual - I believe Prince Charles hasn't
yet reached it! My dad and his brother always addressed my grandmother
as "Mother".
Were they copying one of their parents? I believe that's one way
addresses for grandparents arise in families.
It's confusing for kids at first that people should have so many
different names depending on who's talking to them, or about them.
When I was small, it was still somewhat common to call unrelated
adults "uncle" or "aunt". Now we didn't have a lot of visitors at
home, but the two adult males who visited most frequently were my
mother's brother and my father's best friend, and they happened to
share the same first name. I had a hard time remembering for which
one I was supposed to add "uncle".
We called all our aunts and uncles (except for one or two very elderly
ones) and our parents' adult friends by their first names, which was
quite unusual back then. As I grew up, I realized that no one else
called adults by their first names, so I started to use "Mr." or "Mrs.",
but first names for aunts and uncles remained our norm.
--
Cheryl

---
This email has been checked for viruses by Avast antivirus software.
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charles
2017-11-25 16:32:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
I know this isn't new, but I don't remember details ...
<https://twitter.com/junethomas/status/781796223808311296>
It says
| The British class system is never more obvious than in a card store.
and then shows a photo of various greeting cards addressed to
mother, mam, mum, mummy, respectively.
Not obvious at all to a foreigner. I would have thought that
there's some regional and individual variation in this as well. Is
it really, to this day, strongly class-based?
German has as many widely used words - Mutter, Mutti, Mama, Mami
-, but they carry no indication of class to me. I would never
seriously address my mother as "Mutter" in speaking, but I may
find it most appropriate in writing now that I'm an adult.
at one point, when he was a teenager, my younger brother started calling
our mother "Mrs Hope" in public - so that he wouldn't be embarrased having
her as his mother.
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
occam
2017-11-25 18:30:21 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
I know this isn't new, but I don't remember details ...
<https://twitter.com/junethomas/status/781796223808311296>
It says
| The British class system is never more obvious than in a card store.
and then shows a photo of various greeting cards addressed to
mother, mam, mum, mummy, respectively.
Not obvious at all to a foreigner. I would have thought that
there's some regional and individual variation in this as well. Is
it really, to this day, strongly class-based?
Yes, although I see that the upper class card to 'mater' is missing. Do
the upper classes not send cards to mater or pater?
Quinn C
2017-11-25 18:56:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by Quinn C
I know this isn't new, but I don't remember details ...
<https://twitter.com/junethomas/status/781796223808311296>
It says
| The British class system is never more obvious than in a card store.
and then shows a photo of various greeting cards addressed to
mother, mam, mum, mummy, respectively.
Not obvious at all to a foreigner. I would have thought that
there's some regional and individual variation in this as well. Is
it really, to this day, strongly class-based?
Yes, although I see that the upper class card to 'mater' is missing. Do
the upper classes not send cards to mater or pater?
I thought those upper classes left around AD 400.

How about papá? (Specifically with second-syllable stress. Not AmE
poppa.) And does it even have a female counterpart?
--
"Bother", said the Borg, as they assimilated Pooh.
GordonD
2017-11-26 09:52:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by occam
Post by Quinn C
I know this isn't new, but I don't remember details ...
<https://twitter.com/junethomas/status/781796223808311296>
It says
| The British class system is never more obvious than in a card store.
and then shows a photo of various greeting cards addressed to
mother, mam, mum, mummy, respectively.
Not obvious at all to a foreigner. I would have thought that
there's some regional and individual variation in this as well.
Is it really, to this day, strongly class-based?
Yes, although I see that the upper class card to 'mater' is
missing. Do the upper classes not send cards to mater or pater?
I thought those upper classes left around AD 400.
How about papá? (Specifically with second-syllable stress. Not AmE
poppa.) And does it even have a female counterpart?
In the UK, saying "Papa" with the stress on the second syllable is
likely to get the response "Nicole!", from an advertising campaign for
the Renault Clio (which I'm shocked to learn from Wikipedia ended in 1998!).
--
Gordon Davie
Edinburgh, Scotland
Jerry Friedman
2017-11-27 04:23:24 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by occam
Post by Quinn C
I know this isn't new, but I don't remember details ...
<https://twitter.com/junethomas/status/781796223808311296>
It says
| The British class system is never more obvious than in a card store.
and then shows a photo of various greeting cards addressed to
mother, mam, mum, mummy, respectively.
Not obvious at all to a foreigner. I would have thought that
there's some regional and individual variation in this as well. Is
it really, to this day, strongly class-based?
Yes, although I see that the upper class card to 'mater' is missing. Do
the upper classes not send cards to mater or pater?
I thought those upper classes left around AD 400.
How about papá? (Specifically with second-syllable stress. Not AmE
poppa.) And does it even have a female counterpart?
Yes, "mamá". I have the feeling upper-class characters in British books
before World War II (or some time) say "mamma" that way, but I could be
totally wrong.
--
Jerry Friedman
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-11-27 11:52:54 UTC
Permalink
On Sun, 26 Nov 2017 21:23:24 -0700, Jerry Friedman
Post by Jerry Friedman
Post by Quinn C
Post by occam
Post by Quinn C
I know this isn't new, but I don't remember details ...
<https://twitter.com/junethomas/status/781796223808311296>
It says
| The British class system is never more obvious than in a card store.
and then shows a photo of various greeting cards addressed to
mother, mam, mum, mummy, respectively.
Not obvious at all to a foreigner. I would have thought that
there's some regional and individual variation in this as well. Is
it really, to this day, strongly class-based?
Yes, although I see that the upper class card to 'mater' is missing. Do
the upper classes not send cards to mater or pater?
I thought those upper classes left around AD 400.
How about papá? (Specifically with second-syllable stress. Not AmE
poppa.) And does it even have a female counterpart?
Yes, "mamá". I have the feeling upper-class characters in British books
before World War II (or some time) say "mamma" that way, but I could be
totally wrong.
My direct experience is not necessarily typical. To me and my sisters
our parents were Mumma and Dadda. That continued well beyond early
childhood. Our parents were from Australia. I don't know whether that
usage was normal in Australia or whether it was specific to their own
families.

"Mammy" is used in Ireland in the same way that "Mum" and "Mummy" would
be used. It does not have the connotations that it would in the USA.

https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/mammy

mammy
NOUN
informal

1 A child's word for their mother.
‘he was screaming for his mammy’

1.1 offensive (formerly in the southern United States) a black
nursemaid or nanny in charge of white children.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
bill van
2018-12-14 08:11:07 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by occam
Post by Quinn C
I know this isn't new, but I don't remember details ...
<https://twitter.com/junethomas/status/781796223808311296>
It says
| The British class system is never more obvious than in a card store.
and then shows a photo of various greeting cards addressed to
mother, mam, mum, mummy, respectively.
Not obvious at all to a foreigner. I would have thought that
there's some regional and individual variation in this as well. Is
it really, to this day, strongly class-based?
Yes, although I see that the upper class card to 'mater' is missing. Do
the upper classes not send cards to mater or pater?
I thought those upper classes left around AD 400.
How about papá? (Specifically with second-syllable stress. Not AmE
poppa.) And does it even have a female counterpart?
It does: mamá.

bill
Katy Jennison
2018-12-14 15:11:17 UTC
Permalink
Post by bill van
Post by Quinn C
Post by occam
Post by Quinn C
I know this isn't new, but I don't remember details ...
<https://twitter.com/junethomas/status/781796223808311296>
It says
| The British class system is never more obvious than in a card store.
and then shows a photo of various greeting cards addressed to
mother, mam, mum, mummy, respectively.
Not obvious at all to a foreigner. I would have thought that
there's some regional and individual variation in this as well. Is
it really, to this day, strongly class-based?
Yes, although I see that the upper class card to 'mater' is missing. Do
the upper classes not send cards to mater or pater?
The upper and upper-middle classes wouldn't dream of buying a greetings
card which was specifically addressed to any term meaning 'mother',
except possibly for the occasion of Mothering Sunday when a card
addressed to 'Mother' might just about be deemed acceptable.
Post by bill van
Post by Quinn C
I thought those upper classes left around AD 400.
How about papá? (Specifically with second-syllable stress. Not AmE
poppa.) And does it even have a female counterpart?
It does: mamá.
Yes. (As also in Grandmama.)
--
Katy Jennison
Cheryl
2018-12-14 15:38:32 UTC
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by occam
Post by Quinn C
I know this isn't new, but I don't remember details ...
<https://twitter.com/junethomas/status/781796223808311296>
It says
| The British class system is never more obvious than in a card store.
and then shows a photo of various greeting cards addressed to
mother, mam, mum, mummy, respectively.
Not obvious at all to a foreigner. I would have thought that
there's some regional and individual variation in this as well. Is
it really, to this day, strongly class-based?
Yes, although I see that the upper class card to 'mater' is missing. Do
the upper classes not send cards to mater or pater?
The upper and upper-middle classes wouldn't dream of buying a greetings
card which was specifically addressed to any term meaning 'mother',
except possibly for the occasion of Mothering Sunday when a card
addressed to 'Mother' might just about be deemed acceptable.
Not being British, or upper class, or upper-middle class, I offer as a
data point the fact that in my part of Canada it was de rigeur to give
cards with the appropriate name or nickname (mother, father, sister,
brother, grandmother, grandfather, aunt, uncle) on it. This may no
longer be the case. I went to a Christmas lunch with co-workers, and
part of the entertainment included a take on Jim Reeves' "An Old
Christmas Card" with a lot of jokes about how no one sends cards any
more at all, and no, e-cards don't count.

Personally, I exchange a small number of cards and e-cards with
immediate co-workers, close friends and a couple of my surviving
relatives, but it does seem to be a custom that is dropping off. It
won't be extinct as long as I still get cards from political
representatives and businesses who have done, or hope to do, work for
me, but of course none of them are addressed to Mother, Ma, Mama, Mommy,
Mummy, or any other word for a relative.
--
Cheryl
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-12-14 20:29:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by bill van
Post by Quinn C
Post by occam
Post by Quinn C
I know this isn't new, but I don't remember details ...
<https://twitter.com/junethomas/status/781796223808311296>
It says
| The British class system is never more obvious than in a card store.
and then shows a photo of various greeting cards addressed to
mother, mam, mum, mummy, respectively.
Not obvious at all to a foreigner. I would have thought that
there's some regional and individual variation in this as well. Is
it really, to this day, strongly class-based?
Yes, although I see that the upper class card to 'mater' is missing. Do
the upper classes not send cards to mater or pater?
The upper and upper-middle classes wouldn't dream of buying a greetings
card which was specifically addressed to any term meaning 'mother',
except possibly for the occasion of Mothering Sunday when a card
addressed to 'Mother' might just about be deemed acceptable.
You're right, of course, but you risk launching one of 'Arrison's posts
about how it's much better to be a yobbo.
Post by Katy Jennison
Post by bill van
Post by Quinn C
I thought those upper classes left around AD 400.
How about papá? (Specifically with second-syllable stress. Not AmE
poppa.) And does it even have a female counterpart?
It does: mamá.
Yes. (As also in Grandmama.)
--
athel
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-12-14 20:26:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by bill van
Post by Quinn C
Post by occam
Post by Quinn C
I know this isn't new, but I don't remember details ...
<https://twitter.com/junethomas/status/781796223808311296>
It says
| The British class system is never more obvious than in a card store.
and then shows a photo of various greeting cards addressed to
mother, mam, mum, mummy, respectively.
Not obvious at all to a foreigner. I would have thought that
there's some regional and individual variation in this as well. Is
it really, to this day, strongly class-based?
Yes, although I see that the upper class card to 'mater' is missing. Do
the upper classes not send cards to mater or pater?
I thought those upper classes left around AD 400.
How about papá? (Specifically with second-syllable stress. Not AmE
poppa.
Something I found very confusing. My first wife (American) _said_
poppa, but she _wrote_ papa. Apparently she thought that was the
natural way to write poppa.
Post by bill van
Post by Quinn C
) And does it even have a female counterpart?
It does: mamá.
bill
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2018-12-14 22:05:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Quinn C
Post by occam
Post by Quinn C
I know this isn't new, but I don't remember details ...
<https://twitter.com/junethomas/status/781796223808311296>
It says
| The British class system is never more obvious than in a card store.
and then shows a photo of various greeting cards addressed to
mother, mam, mum, mummy, respectively.
Not obvious at all to a foreigner. I would have thought that
there's some regional and individual variation in this as well. Is
it really, to this day, strongly class-based?
Yes, although I see that the upper class card to 'mater' is missing. Do
the upper classes not send cards to mater or pater?
I thought those upper classes left around AD 400.
How about papá? (Specifically with second-syllable stress. Not AmE
poppa.
Something I found very confusing. My first wife (American) _said_
poppa, but she _wrote_ papa. Apparently she thought that was the
natural way to write poppa.
I believe <poppa> was used in spelling the lyrics of a song made popular
by Barbra Streisand. It's thus got a whiff of Yiddishkeit about it.

<Papa> is the normal spelling of the title.

Compare the beloved film (and TV series) *I Remember Mama* (1st-syllable
stress), about a Norwegian-American family.
Peter Moylan
2018-12-15 00:53:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Something I found very confusing. My first wife (American) _said_
poppa, but she _wrote_ papa. Apparently she thought that was the
natural way to write poppa.
My father was called poppy by some of his grandchildren. He would
probably have been taken aback by pappy, which has a hillbilly whiff
about it.
--
Peter Moylan http://www.pmoylan.org
Newcastle, NSW, Australia
Jerry Friedman
2018-12-15 04:46:15 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by occam
Post by Quinn C
I know this isn't new, but I don't remember details ...
<https://twitter.com/junethomas/status/781796223808311296>
It says
| The British class system is never more obvious than in a card store.
and then shows a photo of various greeting cards addressed to
mother, mam, mum, mummy, respectively.
Not obvious at all to a foreigner. I would have thought that
there's some regional and individual variation in this as well. Is
it really, to this day, strongly class-based?
Yes, although I see that the upper class card to 'mater' is missing. Do
the upper classes not send cards to mater or pater?
I thought those upper classes left around AD 400.
How about papá? (Specifically with second-syllable stress. Not AmE
poppa.
Something I found very confusing. My first wife (American) _said_ poppa,
but she _wrote_ papa. Apparently she thought that was the natural way to
write poppa.
...

As of course it is. Likewise "mama" is the natural way to write /'mAm@/.
--
Jerry Friedman
charles
2017-11-25 20:23:57 UTC
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by Quinn C
I know this isn't new, but I don't remember details ...
<https://twitter.com/junethomas/status/781796223808311296>
It says
| The British class system is never more obvious than in a card store.
and then shows a photo of various greeting cards addressed to
mother, mam, mum, mummy, respectively.
Not obvious at all to a foreigner. I would have thought that
there's some regional and individual variation in this as well. Is
it really, to this day, strongly class-based?
Yes, although I see that the upper class card to 'mater' is missing. Do
the upper classes not send cards to mater or pater?
probably not enough Etonians to justify a special preint run,
--
from KT24 in Surrey, England
Katy Jennison
2017-11-26 08:28:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by occam
Post by Quinn C
I know this isn't new, but I don't remember details ...
<https://twitter.com/junethomas/status/781796223808311296>
It says
| The British class system is never more obvious than in a card store.
and then shows a photo of various greeting cards addressed to
mother, mam, mum, mummy, respectively.
Not obvious at all to a foreigner. I would have thought that
there's some regional and individual variation in this as well. Is
it really, to this day, strongly class-based?
Yes, although I see that the upper class card to 'mater' is missing. Do
the upper classes not send cards to mater or pater?
probably not enough Etonians to justify a special print run,
Dash it, old chap, one doesn't buy a mass-produced card for one's
parent. Those are only for oiks.
--
Katy Jennison
RH Draney
2017-11-26 11:03:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Katy Jennison
Dash it, old chap, one doesn't buy a mass-produced card for one's
parent.  Those are only for oiks.
Help a foreigner out...is an oik above or below a chav?...r
Katy Jennison
2017-11-26 12:59:01 UTC
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by Katy Jennison
Dash it, old chap, one doesn't buy a mass-produced card for one's
parent.  Those are only for oiks.
Help a foreigner out...is an oik above or below a chav?...r
Why would you expect me to care enough to know?
--
Katy Jennison
musika
2017-11-26 15:15:54 UTC
Permalink
Post by RH Draney
Post by Katy Jennison
Dash it, old chap, one doesn't buy a mass-produced card for one's
parent.  Those are only for oiks.
Help a foreigner out...is an oik above or below a chav?...r
The upper class look down on oiks.
Oiks look down on chavs.
--
Ray
UK
Peter Duncanson [BrE]
2017-11-25 18:54:01 UTC
Permalink
On Sat, 25 Nov 2017 11:11:07 -0500, Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
I know this isn't new, but I don't remember details ...
<https://twitter.com/junethomas/status/781796223808311296>
It says
| The British class system is never more obvious than in a card store.
The British class system becomes less and less obvious the more one
tries to define it.
Post by Quinn C
and then shows a photo of various greeting cards addressed to
mother, mam, mum, mummy, respectively.
Not obvious at all to a foreigner. I would have thought that
there's some regional and individual variation in this as well. Is
it really, to this day, strongly class-based?
German has as many widely used words - Mutter, Mutti, Mama, Mami
-, but they carry no indication of class to me. I would never
seriously address my mother as "Mutter" in speaking, but I may
find it most appropriate in writing now that I'm an adult.
--
Peter Duncanson, UK
(in alt.usage.english)
Yusuf B Gursey
2018-12-14 20:56:51 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
I know this isn't new, but I don't remember details ...
<https://twitter.com/junethomas/status/781796223808311296>
It says
| The British class system is never more obvious than in a card store.
and then shows a photo of various greeting cards addressed to
mother, mam, mum, mummy, respectively.
Not obvious at all to a foreigner. I would have thought that
there's some regional and individual variation in this as well. Is
it really, to this day, strongly class-based?
German has as many widely used words - Mutter, Mutti, Mama, Mami
-, but they carry no indication of class to me. I would never
seriously address my mother as "Mutter" in speaking, but I may
find it most appropriate in writing now that I'm an adult.
--
The Eskimoes had fifty-two names for snow because it was
important to them, there ought to be as many for love.
-- Margaret Atwood, Surfacing (novel), p.106
They don't have 52 names for snow, it is differentiated according to type.

Arabic does not many different words for "camel" as they are differentiate between sex, age etc.
Quinn C
2018-12-21 22:44:13 UTC
Permalink
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Quinn C
--
The Eskimoes had fifty-two names for snow because it was
important to them, there ought to be as many for love.
-- Margaret Atwood, Surfacing (novel), p.106
They don't have 52 names for snow, it is differentiated according to type.
I hope everyone knows that by now. In fact, they have a hundred:
<http://ontology.buffalo.edu/smith/varia/snow.html>

No, seriously: it is quite within the leeway of a writer of novels to
have a character use a popular notion as a metaphor, regardless of the
veracity of that notion. It could even be an indicator of the level of
knowledge of the character.

And a false notion can still inspire beauty:


I don't think anyone ever thought there were 50 Eskimo words just
meaning plain "snow", but 50 words for various kinds of snow, where
European languages have maybe 5 or 10 at best. The actual problem with
the popular notion is that the Inuit "words" for snow of various types
are multi-morpheme, so by that account, "snow", "snow slush", "frozen
snow" would be three English words for snow.
--
The notion that there might be a "truth" of sex, as Foucault
ironically terms it, is produced precisely through the regulatory
practices that generate coherent identities through the matrix of
coherent gender norms. -- Judith Butler
Peter T. Daniels
2018-12-22 02:49:49 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Quinn C
--
The Eskimoes had fifty-two names for snow because it was
important to them, there ought to be as many for love.
-- Margaret Atwood, Surfacing (novel), p.106
They don't have 52 names for snow, it is differentiated according to type.
<http://ontology.buffalo.edu/smith/varia/snow.html>
No, seriously: it is quite within the leeway of a writer of novels to
have a character use a popular notion as a metaphor, regardless of the
veracity of that notion. It could even be an indicator of the level of
knowledge of the character.
http://youtu.be/_8Aytn3Fcu0
I don't think anyone ever thought there were 50 Eskimo words just
meaning plain "snow", but 50 words for various kinds of snow, where
European languages have maybe 5 or 10 at best. The actual problem with
the popular notion is that the Inuit "words" for snow of various types
are multi-morpheme, so by that account, "snow", "snow slush", "frozen
snow" would be three English words for snow.
snow, blizzard, ?sleet
Quinn C
2018-12-23 02:55:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Quinn C
--
The Eskimoes had fifty-two names for snow because it was
important to them, there ought to be as many for love.
-- Margaret Atwood, Surfacing (novel), p.106
They don't have 52 names for snow, it is differentiated according to type.
<http://ontology.buffalo.edu/smith/varia/snow.html>
No, seriously: it is quite within the leeway of a writer of novels to
have a character use a popular notion as a metaphor, regardless of the
veracity of that notion. It could even be an indicator of the level of
knowledge of the character.
http://youtu.be/_8Aytn3Fcu0
I don't think anyone ever thought there were 50 Eskimo words just
meaning plain "snow", but 50 words for various kinds of snow, where
European languages have maybe 5 or 10 at best. The actual problem with
the popular notion is that the Inuit "words" for snow of various types
are multi-morpheme, so by that account, "snow", "snow slush", "frozen
snow" would be three English words for snow.
snow, blizzard, ?sleet
Oh my - you're not following the argument, when I'd expect you to be
able to do the presentation on it!

I said there would be 5 or 10 of them in a language like English, but
"frozen snow" would not be counted as one.
--
There is, at a women's college, always some emancipating
encouragement for those with masculine tastes for such things
as mathematics, philosophy, and friendship.
-- Jane Rule, This Is Not For You, p.15
Peter T. Daniels
2018-12-23 14:12:10 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Quinn C
--
The Eskimoes had fifty-two names for snow because it was
important to them, there ought to be as many for love.
-- Margaret Atwood, Surfacing (novel), p.106
They don't have 52 names for snow, it is differentiated according to type.
<http://ontology.buffalo.edu/smith/varia/snow.html>
No, seriously: it is quite within the leeway of a writer of novels to
have a character use a popular notion as a metaphor, regardless of the
veracity of that notion. It could even be an indicator of the level of
knowledge of the character.
http://youtu.be/_8Aytn3Fcu0
I don't think anyone ever thought there were 50 Eskimo words just
meaning plain "snow", but 50 words for various kinds of snow, where
European languages have maybe 5 or 10 at best. The actual problem with
the popular notion is that the Inuit "words" for snow of various types
are multi-morpheme, so by that account, "snow", "snow slush", "frozen
snow" would be three English words for snow.
snow, blizzard, ?sleet
Oh my - you're not following the argument, when I'd expect you to be
able to do the presentation on it!
?
Post by Quinn C
I said there would be 5 or 10 of them in a language like English, but
"frozen snow" would not be counted as one.
Are there in fact more than 3? How do you get to "5 or 10"?
This isn't exactly an unexplored topic, and Yusuf isn't exactly the first
person to have seized upon your quote.
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-12-23 14:26:19 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Quinn C
--
The Eskimoes had fifty-two names for snow because it was
important to them, there ought to be as many for love.
-- Margaret Atwood, Surfacing (novel), p.106
They don't have 52 names for snow, it is differentiated according to type.
<http://ontology.buffalo.edu/smith/varia/snow.html>
No, seriously: it is quite within the leeway of a writer of novels to
have a character use a popular notion as a metaphor, regardless of the
veracity of that notion. It could even be an indicator of the level of
knowledge of the character.
http://youtu.be/_8Aytn3Fcu0
I don't think anyone ever thought there were 50 Eskimo words just
meaning plain "snow", but 50 words for various kinds of snow, where
European languages have maybe 5 or 10 at best. The actual problem with
the popular notion is that the Inuit "words" for snow of various types
are multi-morpheme, so by that account, "snow", "snow slush", "frozen
snow" would be three English words for snow.
snow, blizzard, ?sleet
Oh my - you're not following the argument, when I'd expect you to be
able to do the presentation on it!
?
Post by Quinn C
I said there would be 5 or 10 of them in a language like English, but
"frozen snow" would not be counted as one.
Are there in fact more than 3? How do you get to "5 or 10"?
This isn't exactly an unexplored topic, and Yusuf isn't exactly the first
person to have seized upon your quote.
It depends who is talking. For someone like me who doesn't ski and
thinks that one of the benefits of living in Marseilles is that it
hardly ever snows, one word suffices (though maybe sometimes "sleet"
and "slush" as well), but people who ski need a wider vocabulary. (My
wife is watching a programme about St Petersburg at this moment, with
plenty of snow and slush to be seen.)
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2018-12-23 14:57:44 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
European languages have maybe 5 or 10 at best. The actual problem with
the popular notion is that the Inuit "words" for snow of various types
are multi-morpheme, so by that account, "snow", "snow slush", "frozen
snow" would be three English words for snow.
snow, blizzard, ?sleet
Oh my - you're not following the argument, when I'd expect you to be
able to do the presentation on it!
?
Post by Quinn C
I said there would be 5 or 10 of them in a language like English, but
"frozen snow" would not be counted as one.
Are there in fact more than 3? How do you get to "5 or 10"?
This isn't exactly an unexplored topic, and Yusuf isn't exactly the first
person to have seized upon your quote.
It depends who is talking. For someone like me who doesn't ski and
thinks that one of the benefits of living in Marseilles is that it
hardly ever snows, one word suffices (though maybe sometimes "sleet"
and "slush" as well), but people who ski need a wider vocabulary. (My
wife is watching a programme about St Petersburg at this moment, with
plenty of snow and slush to be seen.)
Aside from a few Scandinavian loanwords that may be used by dedicated
skiers, what other English words are there for snow? (I don't think of
slush as snow -- it's more like former snow.)
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-12-23 17:06:31 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
European languages have maybe 5 or 10 at best. The actual problem with
the popular notion is that the Inuit "words" for snow of various types
are multi-morpheme, so by that account, "snow", "snow slush", "frozen
snow" would be three English words for snow.
snow, blizzard, ?sleet
Oh my - you're not following the argument, when I'd expect you to be
able to do the presentation on it!
?
Post by Quinn C
I said there would be 5 or 10 of them in a language like English, but
"frozen snow" would not be counted as one.
Are there in fact more than 3? How do you get to "5 or 10"?
This isn't exactly an unexplored topic, and Yusuf isn't exactly the first
person to have seized upon your quote.
It depends who is talking. For someone like me who doesn't ski and
thinks that one of the benefits of living in Marseilles is that it
hardly ever snows, one word suffices (though maybe sometimes "sleet"
and "slush" as well), but people who ski need a wider vocabulary. (My
wife is watching a programme about St Petersburg at this moment, with
plenty of snow and slush to be seen.)
Aside from a few Scandinavian loanwords that may be used by dedicated
skiers, what other English words are there for snow? (I don't think of
slush as snow -- it's more like former snow.)
Ask someone who skis.
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2018-12-23 17:32:30 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
European languages have maybe 5 or 10 at best. The actual problem with
the popular notion is that the Inuit "words" for snow of various types
are multi-morpheme, so by that account, "snow", "snow slush", "frozen
snow" would be three English words for snow.
snow, blizzard, ?sleet
Oh my - you're not following the argument, when I'd expect you to be
able to do the presentation on it!
?
Post by Quinn C
I said there would be 5 or 10 of them in a language like English, but
"frozen snow" would not be counted as one.
Are there in fact more than 3? How do you get to "5 or 10"?
This isn't exactly an unexplored topic, and Yusuf isn't exactly the first
person to have seized upon your quote.
It depends who is talking. For someone like me who doesn't ski and
thinks that one of the benefits of living in Marseilles is that it
hardly ever snows, one word suffices (though maybe sometimes "sleet"
and "slush" as well), but people who ski need a wider vocabulary. (My
wife is watching a programme about St Petersburg at this moment, with
plenty of snow and slush to be seen.)
Aside from a few Scandinavian loanwords that may be used by dedicated
skiers, what other English words are there for snow? (I don't think of
slush as snow -- it's more like former snow.)
Ask someone who skis.
That's your comment after I ask that specialized skiing terminology be
excluded?
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-12-23 19:50:35 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
European languages have maybe 5 or 10 at best. The actual problem with
the popular notion is that the Inuit "words" for snow of various types
are multi-morpheme, so by that account, "snow", "snow slush", "frozen
snow" would be three English words for snow.
snow, blizzard, ?sleet
Oh my - you're not following the argument, when I'd expect you to be
able to do the presentation on it!
?
Post by Quinn C
I said there would be 5 or 10 of them in a language like English, but
"frozen snow" would not be counted as one.
Are there in fact more than 3? How do you get to "5 or 10"?
This isn't exactly an unexplored topic, and Yusuf isn't exactly the first
person to have seized upon your quote.
It depends who is talking. For someone like me who doesn't ski and
thinks that one of the benefits of living in Marseilles is that it
hardly ever snows, one word suffices (though maybe sometimes "sleet"
and "slush" as well), but people who ski need a wider vocabulary. (My
wife is watching a programme about St Petersburg at this moment, with
plenty of snow and slush to be seen.)
Aside from a few Scandinavian loanwords that may be used by dedicated
skiers, what other English words are there for snow? (I don't think of
slush as snow -- it's more like former snow.)
Ask someone who skis.
That's your comment after I ask that specialized skiing terminology be
excluded?
Yes. It is. I didn't take your comment as a prohibition, and even if I
had I would have ignored it as being ridiculous.

Do you seriously imagine that only "dedicated skiers" know skiing terms?
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2018-12-24 04:02:55 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
European languages have maybe 5 or 10 at best. The actual problem with
the popular notion is that the Inuit "words" for snow of various types
are multi-morpheme, so by that account, "snow", "snow slush", "frozen
snow" would be three English words for snow.
snow, blizzard, ?sleet
Oh my - you're not following the argument, when I'd expect you to be
able to do the presentation on it!
?
Post by Quinn C
I said there would be 5 or 10 of them in a language like English, but
"frozen snow" would not be counted as one.
Are there in fact more than 3? How do you get to "5 or 10"?
This isn't exactly an unexplored topic, and Yusuf isn't exactly the first
person to have seized upon your quote.
It depends who is talking. For someone like me who doesn't ski and
thinks that one of the benefits of living in Marseilles is that it
hardly ever snows, one word suffices (though maybe sometimes "sleet"
and "slush" as well), but people who ski need a wider vocabulary. (My
wife is watching a programme about St Petersburg at this moment, with
plenty of snow and slush to be seen.)
Aside from a few Scandinavian loanwords that may be used by dedicated
skiers, what other English words are there for snow? (I don't think of
slush as snow -- it's more like former snow.)
Ask someone who skis.
That's your comment after I ask that specialized skiing terminology be
excluded?
Yes. It is. I didn't take your comment as a prohibition, and even if I
had I would have ignored it as being ridiculous.
Do you seriously imagine that only "dedicated skiers" know skiing terms?
Specialized skiing terms, yes.

How familiar are you with Barchan, Firn, Graupel, Sastrugi?

Do you suppose that all specialized enzyme kinetics terminology is known to
everyone who isn't an enzyme kineticist?
Katy Jennison
2018-12-23 17:33:42 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
European languages have maybe 5 or 10 at best. The actual problem with
the popular notion is that the Inuit "words" for snow of various types
are multi-morpheme, so by that account, "snow", "snow slush", "frozen
snow" would be three English words for snow.
snow, blizzard, ?sleet
Oh my - you're not following the argument, when I'd expect you to be
able to do the presentation on it!
?
Post by Quinn C
I said there would be 5 or 10 of them in a language like English, but
"frozen snow" would not be counted as one.
Are there in fact more than 3? How do you get to "5 or 10"?
This isn't exactly an unexplored topic, and Yusuf isn't exactly the first
person to have seized upon your quote.
It depends who is talking. For someone like me who doesn't ski and
thinks that one of the benefits of living in Marseilles is that it
hardly ever snows, one word suffices (though maybe sometimes "sleet"
and "slush" as well), but people who ski need a wider vocabulary. (My
wife is watching a programme about St Petersburg at this moment, with
plenty of snow and slush to be seen.)
Aside from a few Scandinavian loanwords that may be used by dedicated
skiers, what other English words are there for snow? (I don't think of
slush as snow -- it's more like former snow.)
Ask someone who skis.
Exactly what I was thinking. I used to ski, but the words aren't in my
active vocabulary any longer. Maybe listen to a weather forecast for a
skiing area.
--
Katy Jennison
Tak To
2018-12-23 18:03:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
European languages have maybe 5 or 10 at best. The actual problem with
the popular notion is that the Inuit "words" for snow of various types
are multi-morpheme, so by that account, "snow", "snow slush", "frozen
snow" would be three English words for snow.
snow, blizzard, ?sleet
Oh my - you're not following the argument, when I'd expect you to be
able to do the presentation on it!
?
Post by Quinn C
I said there would be 5 or 10 of them in a language like English, but
"frozen snow" would not be counted as one.
Are there in fact more than 3? How do you get to "5 or 10"?
This isn't exactly an unexplored topic, and Yusuf isn't exactly the first
person to have seized upon your quote.
It depends who is talking. For someone like me who doesn't ski and
thinks that one of the benefits of living in Marseilles is that it
hardly ever snows, one word suffices (though maybe sometimes "sleet"
and "slush" as well), but people who ski need a wider vocabulary. (My
wife is watching a programme about St Petersburg at this moment, with
plenty of snow and slush to be seen.)
Aside from a few Scandinavian loanwords that may be used by dedicated
skiers, what other English words are there for snow? (I don't think of
slush as snow -- it's more like former snow.)
Would you accept any of these?
https://blog.liftopia.com/powder-corn-terms-snow-conditions/

I am (was?) an East-coast-only (Alpine) skier, and I have never
heard of "Hero" or "Corduory". I don't think I have
encountered "powder" too many times either. OTOH, there used
to the terms "granular" and "packed granular", with the latter
being essentially an euphemism for "ice".
--
Tak
----------------------------------------------------------------+-----
Tak To ***@alum.mit.eduxx
--------------------------------------------------------------------^^
[taode takto ~{LU5B~}] NB: trim the xx to get my real email addr
Peter T. Daniels
2018-12-23 18:23:58 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tak To
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
European languages have maybe 5 or 10 at best. The actual problem with
the popular notion is that the Inuit "words" for snow of various types
are multi-morpheme, so by that account, "snow", "snow slush", "frozen
snow" would be three English words for snow.
snow, blizzard, ?sleet
Oh my - you're not following the argument, when I'd expect you to be
able to do the presentation on it!
?
Post by Quinn C
I said there would be 5 or 10 of them in a language like English, but
"frozen snow" would not be counted as one.
Are there in fact more than 3? How do you get to "5 or 10"?
This isn't exactly an unexplored topic, and Yusuf isn't exactly the first
person to have seized upon your quote.
It depends who is talking. For someone like me who doesn't ski and
thinks that one of the benefits of living in Marseilles is that it
hardly ever snows, one word suffices (though maybe sometimes "sleet"
and "slush" as well), but people who ski need a wider vocabulary. (My
wife is watching a programme about St Petersburg at this moment, with
plenty of snow and slush to be seen.)
Aside from a few Scandinavian loanwords that may be used by dedicated
skiers, what other English words are there for snow? (I don't think of
slush as snow -- it's more like former snow.)
Would you accept any of these?
https://blog.liftopia.com/powder-corn-terms-snow-conditions/
I am (was?) an East-coast-only (Alpine) skier, and I have never
heard of "Hero" or "Corduory". I don't think I have
encountered "powder" too many times either. OTOH, there used
to the terms "granular" and "packed granular", with the latter
being essentially an euphemism for "ice".
Not one of the above is a word for snow. They are simply transferred
meanings (metaphors?) -- they would no more be considered than "lilac"
or "rose" would be considered color names for a similar purpose.
Quinn C
2018-12-23 18:50:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Tak To
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
European languages have maybe 5 or 10 at best. The actual problem with
the popular notion is that the Inuit "words" for snow of various types
are multi-morpheme, so by that account, "snow", "snow slush", "frozen
snow" would be three English words for snow.
snow, blizzard, ?sleet
Oh my - you're not following the argument, when I'd expect you to be
able to do the presentation on it!
?
Post by Quinn C
I said there would be 5 or 10 of them in a language like English, but
"frozen snow" would not be counted as one.
Are there in fact more than 3? How do you get to "5 or 10"?
This isn't exactly an unexplored topic, and Yusuf isn't exactly the first
person to have seized upon your quote.
It depends who is talking. For someone like me who doesn't ski and
thinks that one of the benefits of living in Marseilles is that it
hardly ever snows, one word suffices (though maybe sometimes "sleet"
and "slush" as well), but people who ski need a wider vocabulary. (My
wife is watching a programme about St Petersburg at this moment, with
plenty of snow and slush to be seen.)
Aside from a few Scandinavian loanwords that may be used by dedicated
skiers, what other English words are there for snow? (I don't think of
slush as snow -- it's more like former snow.)
Would you accept any of these?
https://blog.liftopia.com/powder-corn-terms-snow-conditions/
I couldn't reach the site.
Post by Tak To
I am (was?) an East-coast-only (Alpine) skier, and I have never
heard of "Hero" or "Corduory". I don't think I have
encountered "powder" too many times either. OTOH, there used
to the terms "granular" and "packed granular", with the latter
being essentially an euphemism for "ice".
A lot of the words, like powder or slush, only work on their own when
you already know you're talking about snow. There are other kinds of
powder and slush. That's even true for some of the very technical terms
like cornice or barchan.
--
Java is kind of like kindergarten. There are lots of rules you
have to remember. If you don't follow them, the compiler makes
you sit in the corner until you do.
Don Raab
Quinn C
2018-12-23 18:50:14 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Quinn C
--
The Eskimoes had fifty-two names for snow because it was
important to them, there ought to be as many for love.
-- Margaret Atwood, Surfacing (novel), p.106
They don't have 52 names for snow, it is differentiated according to type.
<http://ontology.buffalo.edu/smith/varia/snow.html>
No, seriously: it is quite within the leeway of a writer of novels to
have a character use a popular notion as a metaphor, regardless of the
veracity of that notion. It could even be an indicator of the level of
knowledge of the character.
http://youtu.be/_8Aytn3Fcu0
I don't think anyone ever thought there were 50 Eskimo words just
meaning plain "snow", but 50 words for various kinds of snow, where
European languages have maybe 5 or 10 at best. The actual problem with
the popular notion is that the Inuit "words" for snow of various types
are multi-morpheme, so by that account, "snow", "snow slush", "frozen
snow" would be three English words for snow.
snow, blizzard, ?sleet
Oh my - you're not following the argument, when I'd expect you to be
able to do the presentation on it!
?
Post by Quinn C
I said there would be 5 or 10 of them in a language like English, but
"frozen snow" would not be counted as one.
Are there in fact more than 3? How do you get to "5 or 10"?
First of all, 3 is within the referent of "5 or 10" for me, as would be
13. "5 or 10" is like "a handful or two", and not as precise as
"between 5 and 10".

But if you count "blizzard", a weather phenomenon involving snow,
there's also "flurry" and "whiteout". That's without getting technical
(like firn/névé or sastrugi.)

Here's another, serious, list:
<https://www.farmersalmanac.com/how-many-words-snow-16650>

Interestingly, there seem to be at least as many common words for ice -
frost, hoarfrost, rime, hail, floe, glacier. Often, these seem to be
counted under "words for snow", and they might well have been included
in those lists of Eskimo words for snow as well.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
This isn't exactly an unexplored topic, and Yusuf isn't exactly the first
person to have seized upon your quote.
"Seize upon"?
--
Java is the SUV of programming tools.
A project done in Java will cost 5 times as much, take twice as
long, and be harder to maintain than a project done in a
scripting language such as PHP or Perl. - Philip Greenspun
Peter T. Daniels
2018-12-23 19:38:16 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Quinn C
--
The Eskimoes had fifty-two names for snow because it was
important to them, there ought to be as many for love.
-- Margaret Atwood, Surfacing (novel), p.106
They don't have 52 names for snow, it is differentiated according to type.
<http://ontology.buffalo.edu/smith/varia/snow.html>
No, seriously: it is quite within the leeway of a writer of novels to
have a character use a popular notion as a metaphor, regardless of the
veracity of that notion. It could even be an indicator of the level of
knowledge of the character.
http://youtu.be/_8Aytn3Fcu0
I don't think anyone ever thought there were 50 Eskimo words just
meaning plain "snow", but 50 words for various kinds of snow, where
European languages have maybe 5 or 10 at best. The actual problem with
the popular notion is that the Inuit "words" for snow of various types
are multi-morpheme, so by that account, "snow", "snow slush", "frozen
snow" would be three English words for snow.
snow, blizzard, ?sleet
Oh my - you're not following the argument, when I'd expect you to be
able to do the presentation on it!
?
Post by Quinn C
I said there would be 5 or 10 of them in a language like English, but
"frozen snow" would not be counted as one.
Are there in fact more than 3? How do you get to "5 or 10"?
First of all, 3 is within the referent of "5 or 10" for me, as would be
13. "5 or 10" is like "a handful or two", and not as precise as
"between 5 and 10".
Stop being silly.
Post by Quinn C
But if you count "blizzard", a weather phenomenon involving snow,
there's also "flurry" and "whiteout". That's without getting technical
(like firn/névé or sastrugi.)
Once again: those are NOT snow-specific words.
Post by Quinn C
<https://www.farmersalmanac.com/how-many-words-snow-16650>
From that list, these are the only ones that are not transfers of words
with other basic meanings, and I doubt that any of them is known outside
a small cadre of specialists:

Barchan Firn Graupel Sastrugi

Hoarfrost is admitted but not rime -- both or neither, Shirley?
Post by Quinn C
Interestingly, there seem to be at least as many common words for ice -
frost, hoarfrost, rime, hail, floe, glacier. Often, these seem to be
counted under "words for snow", and they might well have been included
in those lists of Eskimo words for snow as well.
Have you ever seen such a list?
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
This isn't exactly an unexplored topic, and Yusuf isn't exactly the first
person to have seized upon your quote.
"Seize upon"?
Quinn C
2018-12-24 20:59:05 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Quinn C
--
The Eskimoes had fifty-two names for snow because it was
important to them, there ought to be as many for love.
-- Margaret Atwood, Surfacing (novel), p.106
They don't have 52 names for snow, it is differentiated according to type.
<http://ontology.buffalo.edu/smith/varia/snow.html>
No, seriously: it is quite within the leeway of a writer of novels to
have a character use a popular notion as a metaphor, regardless of the
veracity of that notion. It could even be an indicator of the level of
knowledge of the character.
http://youtu.be/_8Aytn3Fcu0
I don't think anyone ever thought there were 50 Eskimo words just
meaning plain "snow", but 50 words for various kinds of snow, where
European languages have maybe 5 or 10 at best. The actual problem with
the popular notion is that the Inuit "words" for snow of various types
are multi-morpheme, so by that account, "snow", "snow slush", "frozen
snow" would be three English words for snow.
snow, blizzard, ?sleet
Oh my - you're not following the argument, when I'd expect you to be
able to do the presentation on it!
?
Post by Quinn C
I said there would be 5 or 10 of them in a language like English, but
"frozen snow" would not be counted as one.
Are there in fact more than 3? How do you get to "5 or 10"?
First of all, 3 is within the referent of "5 or 10" for me, as would be
13. "5 or 10" is like "a handful or two", and not as precise as
"between 5 and 10".
Stop being silly.
You realize that most readers think that about half of your posts? And
"half" in this usage means something like "between a quarter and three
quarters".

It's not silly at all. That's certainly how I'd use it in German. If
you think that's bad English usage, say so, and maybe we can get other
opinions.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
But if you count "blizzard", a weather phenomenon involving snow,
there's also "flurry" and "whiteout". That's without getting technical
(like firn/névé or sastrugi.)
Once again: those are NOT snow-specific words.
I've never seen them used for anything else. Well, "flurry of
activities", yes, but I took that as figurative, rather than the snow
version. There's also "blizzard of X".

"Whiteout" is pretty snow-specific, but maybe the real point, which you
failed to express, is that neither of the two morphemes it contains is
snow-related on its own.
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Interestingly, there seem to be at least as many common words for ice -
frost, hoarfrost, rime, hail, floe, glacier. Often, these seem to be
counted under "words for snow", and they might well have been included
in those lists of Eskimo words for snow as well.
Have you ever seen such a list?
Yes. I'm aware those have been collected after the notion of "many
words for snow" had become widespread, to either prove or disprove it.
And some of those lists get criticized for counting derived words as
separate terms.
--
Press any key to continue or any other key to quit.
Peter T. Daniels
2018-12-24 21:24:04 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Quinn C
--
The Eskimoes had fifty-two names for snow because it was
important to them, there ought to be as many for love.
-- Margaret Atwood, Surfacing (novel), p.106
They don't have 52 names for snow, it is differentiated according to type.
<http://ontology.buffalo.edu/smith/varia/snow.html>
No, seriously: it is quite within the leeway of a writer of novels to
have a character use a popular notion as a metaphor, regardless of the
veracity of that notion. It could even be an indicator of the level of
knowledge of the character.
http://youtu.be/_8Aytn3Fcu0
I don't think anyone ever thought there were 50 Eskimo words just
meaning plain "snow", but 50 words for various kinds of snow, where
European languages have maybe 5 or 10 at best. The actual problem with
the popular notion is that the Inuit "words" for snow of various types
are multi-morpheme, so by that account, "snow", "snow slush", "frozen
snow" would be three English words for snow.
snow, blizzard, ?sleet
Oh my - you're not following the argument, when I'd expect you to be
able to do the presentation on it!
?
Post by Quinn C
I said there would be 5 or 10 of them in a language like English, but
"frozen snow" would not be counted as one.
Are there in fact more than 3? How do you get to "5 or 10"?
First of all, 3 is within the referent of "5 or 10" for me, as would be
13. "5 or 10" is like "a handful or two", and not as precise as
"between 5 and 10".
Stop being silly.
You realize that most readers think that about half of your posts? And
"half" in this usage means something like "between a quarter and three
quarters".
That is a completely legitimate usage.

To claim that 3 is included within "5 or 10" is not.
Post by Quinn C
It's not silly at all. That's certainly how I'd use it in German. If
you think that's bad English usage, say so, and maybe we can get other
opinions.
Germans are proverbially rational. What happened?
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
But if you count "blizzard", a weather phenomenon involving snow,
there's also "flurry" and "whiteout". That's without getting technical
(like firn/névé or sastrugi.)
Once again: those are NOT snow-specific words.
I've never seen them used for anything else. Well, "flurry of
activities", yes, but I took that as figurative, rather than the snow
version. There's also "blizzard of X".
"Whiteout" is pretty snow-specific, but maybe the real point, which you
failed to express, is that neither of the two morphemes it contains is
snow-related on its own.
That point was made decades ago, when the nonsensical statement first began
to be bandied about, and every time someone notices that you constantly use
it as a .sig.
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Interestingly, there seem to be at least as many common words for ice -
frost, hoarfrost, rime, hail, floe, glacier. Often, these seem to be
counted under "words for snow", and they might well have been included
in those lists of Eskimo words for snow as well.
Have you ever seen such a list?
Yes. I'm aware those have been collected after the notion of "many
words for snow" had become widespread, to either prove or disprove it.
And some of those lists get criticized for counting derived words as
separate terms.
As well they should be. How many non-derived words are on the list?
How do you define "word" in the Eskimo languages?
Athel Cornish-Bowden
2018-12-25 14:43:27 UTC
Permalink
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Quinn C
--
The Eskimoes had fifty-two names for snow because it was
important to them, there ought to be as many for love.
-- Margaret Atwood, Surfacing (novel), p.106
They don't have 52 names for snow, it is differentiated according to
type.> >>>>>> I hope everyone knows that by now. In fact, they have a
<http://ontology.buffalo.edu/smith/varia/snow.html>
No, seriously: it is quite within the leeway of a writer of novels to
have a character use a popular notion as a metaphor, regardless of the
veracity of that notion. It could even be an indicator of the level of
knowledge of the character.> >>>>>> And a false notion can still
http://youtu.be/_8Aytn3Fcu0
I don't think anyone ever thought there were 50 Eskimo words just
meaning plain "snow", but 50 words for various kinds of snow, where
European languages have maybe 5 or 10 at best. The actual problem with
the popular notion is that the Inuit "words" for snow of various types
are multi-morpheme, so by that account, "snow", "snow slush", "frozen
snow" would be three English words for snow.> >>>>> snow, blizzard, ?sleet
Oh my - you're not following the argument, when I'd expect you to be
able to do the presentation on it!
?
Post by Quinn C
I said there would be 5 or 10 of them in a language like English, but
"frozen snow" would not be counted as one.
Are there in fact more than 3? How do you get to "5 or 10"?
First of all, 3 is within the referent of "5 or 10" for me, as would be
13. "5 or 10" is like "a handful or two", and not as precise as
"between 5 and 10".
Stop being silly.
You realize that most readers think that about half of your posts? And
"half" in this usage means something like "between a quarter and three
quarters".
That is a completely legitimate usage.
To claim that 3 is included within "5 or 10" is not.
Post by Quinn C
It's not silly at all. That's certainly how I'd use it in German. If
you think that's bad English usage, say so, and maybe we can get other
opinions.
Germans are proverbially rational. What happened?
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
But if you count "blizzard", a weather phenomenon involving snow,
there's also "flurry" and "whiteout". That's without getting technical
(like firn/névé or sastrugi.)> > Once again: those are NOT snow-specific words.
I've never seen them used for anything else. Well, "flurry of
activities", yes, but I took that as figurative, rather than the snow
version. There's also "blizzard of X".
"Whiteout" is pretty snow-specific, but maybe the real point, which you
failed to express, is that neither of the two morphemes it contains is
snow-related on its own.
That point was made decades ago, when the nonsensical statement first
beganto be bandied about, and every time someone notices that you
constantly useit as a .sig.
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Interestingly, there seem to be at least as many common words for ice -
frost, hoarfrost, rime, hail, floe, glacier. Often, these seem to be
counted under "words for snow", and they might well have been included
in those lists of Eskimo words for snow as well.
Have you ever seen such a list?
Yes. I'm aware those have been collected after the notion of "many
words for snow" had become widespread, to either prove or disprove it.
And some of those lists get criticized for counting derived words as
separate terms.
As well they should be. How many non-derived words are on the list?How
do you define "word" in the Eskimo languages?
How do you define "word" in French? OK, there are spaces between
"words" in the written language, but no indication of where they are
when it's spoken. To some degree that's true of English, Spanish,
German, etc. as well, but the lack of stress makes it more obvious in
French that the basic unit of an utterance is the sentence.
--
athel
Peter T. Daniels
2018-12-25 15:30:48 UTC
Permalink
Post by Athel Cornish-Bowden
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Quinn C
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Quinn C
The Eskimoes had fifty-two names for snow because it was
important to them, there ought to be as many for love.
-- Margaret Atwood, Surfacing (novel), p.106
They don't have 52 names for snow, it is differentiated according to
type.> >>>>>> I hope everyone knows that by now. In fact, they have a
<http://ontology.buffalo.edu/smith/varia/snow.html>
No, seriously: it is quite within the leeway of a writer of novels to
have a character use a popular notion as a metaphor, regardless of the
veracity of that notion. It could even be an indicator of the level of
knowledge of the character.> >>>>>> And a false notion can still
http://youtu.be/_8Aytn3Fcu0
I don't think anyone ever thought there were 50 Eskimo words just
meaning plain "snow", but 50 words for various kinds of snow, where
European languages have maybe 5 or 10 at best. The actual problem with
the popular notion is that the Inuit "words" for snow of various types
are multi-morpheme, so by that account, "snow", "snow slush", "frozen
snow" would be three English words for snow.> >>>>> snow, blizzard, ?sleet
Oh my - you're not following the argument, when I'd expect you to be
able to do the presentation on it!
?
Post by Quinn C
I said there would be 5 or 10 of them in a language like English, but
"frozen snow" would not be counted as one.
Are there in fact more than 3? How do you get to "5 or 10"?
First of all, 3 is within the referent of "5 or 10" for me, as would be
13. "5 or 10" is like "a handful or two", and not as precise as
"between 5 and 10".
Stop being silly.
You realize that most readers think that about half of your posts? And
"half" in this usage means something like "between a quarter and three
quarters".
That is a completely legitimate usage.
To claim that 3 is included within "5 or 10" is not.
Post by Quinn C
It's not silly at all. That's certainly how I'd use it in German. If
you think that's bad English usage, say so, and maybe we can get other
opinions.
Germans are proverbially rational. What happened?
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
But if you count "blizzard", a weather phenomenon involving snow,
there's also "flurry" and "whiteout". That's without getting technical
(like firn/névé or sastrugi.)> > Once again: those are NOT snow-specific words.
I've never seen them used for anything else. Well, "flurry of
activities", yes, but I took that as figurative, rather than the snow
version. There's also "blizzard of X".
"Whiteout" is pretty snow-specific, but maybe the real point, which you
failed to express, is that neither of the two morphemes it contains is
snow-related on its own.
That point was made decades ago, when the nonsensical statement first
beganto be bandied about, and every time someone notices that you
constantly useit as a .sig.
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Interestingly, there seem to be at least as many common words for ice -
frost, hoarfrost, rime, hail, floe, glacier. Often, these seem to be
counted under "words for snow", and they might well have been included
in those lists of Eskimo words for snow as well.
Have you ever seen such a list?
Yes. I'm aware those have been collected after the notion of "many
words for snow" had become widespread, to either prove or disprove it.
And some of those lists get criticized for counting derived words as
separate terms.
As well they should be. How many non-derived words are on the list?How
do you define "word" in the Eskimo languages?
How do you define "word" in French? OK, there are spaces between
"words" in the written language, but no indication of where they are
when it's spoken. To some degree that's true of English, Spanish,
German, etc. as well, but the lack of stress makes it more obvious in
French that the basic unit of an utterance is the sentence.
See Robert A. Hall Jr.'s *French: A Structural Sketch* (1948). He shows
long strings of phonemes between spaces because there is no principled
way to cut off all the preposed pronouns and articles and such or all
the postposed clitics and such. I think he says "breath group."

I suspect bebe... won't accept that.

Sam Plusnet
2018-12-23 20:07:56 UTC
Permalink
Post by Quinn C
Post by Peter T. Daniels
Post by Quinn C
Post by Yusuf B Gursey
Post by Quinn C
--
The Eskimoes had fifty-two names for snow because it was
important to them, there ought to be as many for love.
-- Margaret Atwood, Surfacing (novel), p.106
They don't have 52 names for snow, it is differentiated according to type.
<http://ontology.buffalo.edu/smith/varia/snow.html>
No, seriously: it is quite within the leeway of a writer of novels to
have a character use a popular notion as a metaphor, regardless of the
veracity of that notion. It could even be an indicator of the level of
knowledge of the character.
http://youtu.be/_8Aytn3Fcu0
I don't think anyone ever thought there were 50 Eskimo words just
meaning plain "snow", but 50 words for various kinds of snow, where
European languages have maybe 5 or 10 at best. The actual problem with
the popular notion is that the Inuit "words" for snow of various types
are multi-morpheme, so by that account, "snow", "snow slush", "frozen
snow" would be three English words for snow.
snow, blizzard, ?sleet
Oh my - you're not following the argument, when I'd expect you to be
able to do the presentation on it!
I said there would be 5 or 10 of them in a language like English, but
"frozen snow" would not be counted as one.
Perhaps Stephen Fry provides the answer in Ms Kate Bush's work
"50 Words for Snow" - but many of them seem rather fanciful.
--
Sam Plusnet
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